How Would The Male “Pill” Change Things?

Can you imagine a world without female birth control? No doubt there would be protests, pressure groups, lobbyists. Feminist activists united with right-wing moms. White knight politicians scrambling to write bills one-upping each other to provide more and more funding. Rush Limbaugh would be going wild, calling women sluts left and right. The nation would grind to a halt as women cried out against the patriarchal exploitation imposed on a woman’s fertility. Big pharma would pull out all the stops.

Now reverse that and imagine a world without male birth control. Would there be protests, massive calls for funding, shrieking about the matriarchy? Well, simply look around and you see there’s basically silence. Okay, yes, we have condoms but a rigorous and proper fucking can often shred these delicate chaps. Where is the more fool-(and fuck-)proof male birth control? And to channel Bill Burr’s awesome cry to the crowd, “Whyyyy is it soooo quiet in here????”  Where’s the call for the male “pill?”

Let’s imagine what life would be like with a male “pill”:

  • Men will only become fathers if they choose to.
  • Gold digging whores will lapse into depression as they fuck rich men over and over to no avail–the child-support lottery will be closed.
  • Men will laugh in the face of women when they’re caught red-handed poking holes in the condom.  Agree and amplify:  “Here, use these” as you hand her a pair of scissors.
  • Putting all young males on this would do away with most unwanted teen pregnancies.
  • Fewer unintended pregnancies…and fewer intended abortions.
  • Statutory female rapists would no longer get child support from their younger male victims because they wouldn’t have gotten pregnant in the first place.
  • Men could now rawdog to their heart’s content, though STDs might be lurking in the damp shadows and thickets below.
  • You can rawdog warpigs without the embarrassment of having to admit you got her pregnant! Though dumpster diving is not advised, for those with lower tastes (Arnold, I’m looking at you and your maid), beer goggles or greater thirst, no more pulling out and hoping to God that the condom didn’t break lest this fugly become the mother of your parents’ next grandchild.
  • If the long-lasting and cheap injection methods turn out then big pharma will likely lose some female pill customers inside of relationships where the man can get his one and done shot–there’s little money in a cheap injection so no movement by them to develop a technology that will just cannibalize their current products.
  • Feel free to throw out your ideas of what this would mean

The Male “pill” is Near

Okay, even though it’s not really a pill, effective male birth control is just over the horizon. The crazy thing is that the studies are being done on Vasalgel (see below) by a private foundation in the US that’s asking for donations. All they need is a few hundred grand to finish all the testing and legal work. That’s mice nuts to the gov’t or Bill Gates. For all the money they spend on other stuff (worthy or not), it’s rather curious why no one steps forward and just shows them the money.

The Candidates

RISUG was developed in India and seems to work very well in men:

RISUG works by an injection into the vas deferens, the vessel through which the sperm moves before ejaculation.

The effect the chemical has on sperm is not completely understood….Professor SK Guha theorizes that the polymer surface has a negative and positive electric charge mosaic. The differential charge from the gel ruptures the sperm’s cell membrane as it passes through the vas, inactivating sperm before they initiate their journey to the egg.

Advantages:

Effectiveness – There has been only one unplanned pregnancy among partners of the 250 volunteers who have been injected RISUG — apparently due to an improperly administered injection. Out of the 250 volunteers who have been injected RISUG, 15 received the injection more than 10 years ago.

Convenience – There is no interruption before the sexual act.

Cost – The shot itself costs less than the syringe used to administer it

Outpatient Procedure – Patients can leave the hospital immediately after an injection and resume their normal sex lives within a week.

Duration of effect – According to Dr. Guha, a single 60 mg injection can be effective for at least 10 years.

Reversibility – The contraceptive action appears to be reversible by flushing the vas deferens with another injection of dimethyl sulfoxide or sodium bicarbonate solution. Although this reversal procedure has been tried only on primates, it has been repeatedly successful.

Potential Hazards:

The thoroughness of carcinogenicity, teratogenicity, and toxicity testing in clinical trials has been questioned. In October 2002, India’s Ministry of Health aborted the clinical trials due to reports of albumin in urine and scrotal swelling in Phase III trial participants. The Indian Council for Medical Research (ICMR) noted that dimethyl sulfoxide used as a solvent for the injection is known to cause kidney damage. Although the ICMR has reviewed and approved the toxicology data three times, WHO and Indian researchers say that the studies were not done according to recent international standards. Due to the lack of any evidence for adverse effects, trials were restarted in 2011.

Vasalgel (USA)

The main difference seems to be that this captures the sperm like a filter. There they stay…and die (poor little guys)…and then disintegrate and are either absorbed or washed away with a subsequent ejaculation.

Here’s a description:

Vasalgel is a non-hormonal polymer (a gel) that gets injected into each vas deferens (the tube sperm swim through) using a painless, minimally invasive procedure similar to a no-scalpel vasectomy. Once in place, the gel solidifies into a semi-solid plug that allows fluid to pass, but blocks all sperm.

At the Vasalgel site, we see the latest news is that they are raising money for testing on baboons. They needed $80k for the test, raised over half as of Jan. 30 and so were able to begin testing–the baboons were given their vasalgel shot–and needed $37k more to finish. I’m simply passing on the info and am not trying to convince anyone but anyone interested in donating can do so at the site and even $5 or $10 donations are welcome.

An Actual Pill Being Developed in Indonesia

Here’s a good article that talks about RISUG and Vasalgel and also mentions a pill being devloped in Indonesia.

www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/01/who-wants-male-contraceptive-pill-chauvinism

Indonesian researchers began looking into the properties of gandarusa in the 1980s and conducted animal and human trials through the 1990s. The active ingredient of the plant was isolated, chemically synthesised and has now been turned into pill form. In the most recent tests, 350 couples took the pill for 30 days and there was a 99.96% success rate. Normal fertility returned three days after the men stopped taking the pills.

Conclusion

Slow as it’s going, it looks like workable non-condom male birth control is around the corner. This will be an important tool for men to use to control their reproductive and financial health.

Update on timeline:

http://www.parsemusfoundation.org/vasalgel-faqs/

We want to get Vasalgel on the market as soon as possible, but all the proper efficacy and safety testing needs to be completed. Vasalgel is currently in animal testing, with human trials expected to start in 2014 (small trial) and 2014-2015 (larger trials). If everything goes well and with enough public support, we hope to get Vasalgel on the market in 2016.

Update 2 on Gandarusa

http://www.newmalecontraception.org/indonesian-pill-gandarusa/

Antara News reported on August 18, 2013 that research on Gandarusa had been completed by scientists at Airlangga University and the purified plant extract has been handed over to state pharmaceutical company Indofarma for stability testing and securing the production and distribution licenses. The process is expected to take less time because Gandarusa is considered a herbal medicine, and the pill may be available to Indonesians by prescription in 2014.

204 thoughts on “How Would The Male “Pill” Change Things?

  1. 1
    jf12 says:

    Also, males taking female birth control pills tend not to get it up, so there’s that too.

    The point being, the reason condoms aren’t more popular is strictly because they interfere with enjoyment of sex. To the extent that a male pill does not interfere with enjoyment, then men will use it. But if it decreases sensations or diminishes the experience, then men won’t want to use it.

  2. 2
    Tam the Bam says:

    Maybe you could get the elites interested by punting it as a way of thinning the ranks of the vast mass of men, who they plainly regard as Useless Eaters?

    Betas can go sloppy seconds/seventeenths their whole lives, and there’s no risk of any more Uentermensch being crapped out by the aged rejects they have to accept as wives, ex-carousellers from the alphas’ harems.
    All the big swinging dicks have to do is fund it, presumably by the preferred route of palming it off on the idiot taxpayers as a social good.

    Convince the apex males that only the most glorious and godlike beings (themselves) will reproduce. The sluts will simply not tolerate the *ahem* input of their actual male peers, but will avidly, manically seek apex sperm as yet another hook to “commitment”. Failing that, well, they got a little piece of Him anyway, to show the other girls.
    Banging on about it being for “The Environment” and the Starving Millions and other such rubbish wouldn’t hurt either.

  3. 3
    Liz says:

    The male pill would be awesome for women too. Speaking as a person who can’t take hormonal birth control and has an IUD that has been embedded in my uterine wall for the last 2 years at least. I have to get it surgically removed, but won’t be able to get another for a while so I’ve been putting it off.

    I think a lot of men would fear side effects. I doubt my husband would ever take it, for that reason.

  4. 4
    jf12 says:

    Re: side effects. I think for most men the rank of importance of side effects to things happening to their scrotal area are
    1) Immediate pain potential (first and foremost. Swelling, who cares? Swelling with pain? We care! We care!)
    2) Decreasing sexual frequency (always a concern. If this treatment provides birth control even partly through decreasing piv activity, then no.)
    3) Decreased sexual enjoyment (always a concern, but it’s hard to decrease enjoyment, seriously. One example issue would be decreased or absent ejaculation volume.)
    4) Risk of dying several years earlier than otherwise would, when old and broken.

  5. 5
    mindstar says:

    A major selling point will be from its impact on the welfare roles. If properly marketed to the alpha cads (“have all the mamas without the baby drama”) you will see a sharp reduction in AFDC budgets and similar welfare prohgrams because there will simply be fewer babies born. This may over the long term lead to reductions in urban crime, poor education results and poor employment which at present seem to be part and parcel of the single welfare mother and their children.

  6. 6

    If it appeared there was money to be made, somebody would have tried.
    Either big pharma doesn’t think it’s possible, or doesn’t think–after the huge outlay to develop it–that it would sell.

  7. 7
    Liz says:

    #4: I agree with your rankings.
    My husband is most concerned with 2 and 3, but he’s also concerned about being “unmanned” or something (pills causing femininity). The reason he won’t drink a soy latte. More superstition than fact, but he also thinks if the sperm can’t “get out” it’s unhealthy somehow.

  8. 8
    maxsnafu says:

    Getting a shot in the nutsack isn’t exactly my idea of a lot of fun.

  9. 9
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    There is resistance to male contraceptives. Following video is in Portuguese with English subtitles but an eye opener.

  10. 10
    Morpheus says:

    The reason he won’t drink a soy latte. More superstition than fact, but he also thinks if the sperm can’t “get out” it’s unhealthy somehow.

    Actually, soy and soy products will boost estrogen in men due to the isoflavones. I don’t touch anything with soy at all.

  11. 11
    jf12 says:

    Re: soy. Yeah, well, that’s what the majority of testosterone is used for: to counteract environmental estrogens. Usually of MUCH more importance is aromatase activity, and the easiest dietary way for a man to decrease aromatase conversion of testosterone is to increase both zinc and vitamin C substantially. Especially if a man has been suffering from zinc deficiency, like the majority of young men do from excessive masturbation, or has not been eating his fresh fruits and veggies.

  12. 12
    jf12 says:

    Re: sperm getting out. In traditional vasectomies, it causes *problems* when the sperm get out: antisperm antibodies and sperm granulomas. Generally speaking, when a vasectomy is successful and the duct completely blocked, the sperm are backed up and the epididymis swells alarmingly. But that is a feature, not a bug, and they will not call it epididymitis unless there is infection and inflammation.

  13. 13
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Should this come to a drug store near you, it will be the fount of profound social change. Fatherhood should not be something that men are drafted into but, should volunteer for. With forty percent of births to women under thirty being out of wedlock and most overall unplanned, allowing women to have full reproductive control has been a social disaster. There are too many single mommies out there by choice and, in interviews, a lot of them would never consider living with the child’s natural father. Raising a child without paternal involvement is, by default, child abuse.

    There will also be unitended social consequences with this, not all of them good, but, putting the brakes on babymommas has to happen. Society can’t afford them.

  14. 14
    jf12 says:

    I would be curious if someone could collect some of actual feminist objections to male contraception, other than the throwaway concept of unreliable men. Are there feminists on record against male choice as taking away from female choice?

  15. 15

    Richard Aubrey…”If it appeared there was money to be made, somebody would have tried. Either big pharma doesn’t think it’s possible, or doesn’t think–after the huge outlay to develop it–that it would sell.”

    It is not uncommon for a drug to be developed by a start-up, and the company to be snatched up by a large pharma after the drug begins to look viable. Browsing the start-ups to see what looks good is a legitimate supplement to a pharma’s own research efforts.

  16. 16
    deti says:

    I was kinda sorta excited about male-controlled birth control methods besides the condom (too inhibitive) and the vasectomy (too painful, too permanent). I’m not so sure now. I don’t think RISUG or vasalgel are going to catch on. If they do they will be niche markets and won’t be used nearly as widely as female hormonal birth control.

    The main market for RISUG and vasalgel would be young single men. Most men aren’t sexually active enough to invest the money into a pill. And most young single men won’t want to get shots into their scrotums, even if that means being able to have sex with near-impunity (except the real potential for contracting an STD). The low returns aren’t worth the money, the hassle or the pain and suffering.

    By contrast, sex is one of the easiest commodities to get for a woman. Under those circumstances, it just makes sense for the woman of average attractiveness to get on the pill.

  17. 17
    PVW says:

    I wonder, whether with something like this, if male birth control became an option, there might not be numbers of men who say they are on birth control, but they really aren’t, because they actually have an interest in pregnancy? Will there be instances of men trying to trap women with pregnancy? That would be interesting to know. But even then, with abortion laws as they exist, the shift of power might be negligible. I think that even with male birth control, women should still use their own. As for women who want children, with male birth control, they would have to negotiate more with the men they date/sleep with/hope to marry, because it would be all out of their control. So this would, as you mention, shift the manipulation factors. How would men use that power, I’d love to know!

  18. 18
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    jf12,
    I always thought that Betty Freidan’s objection of the unrliable man was a strawman. I think that she didn’t voice her real objection because, with the current situation, women do have full reproductive control post conception and prior, men have to rely on a woman’s veracity, which is a vulnerability to men.
    This may go deeper than feminism. It may be an issue that cuts to the core of the female impreative. I don’t think we’ll find much feminist thought on this. They do tend to be reactive rather than proactive.

  19. 19
    Acksiom says:

    Where are people getting the impression it’s necessarily a shot in the scrotes? It’s been a while since I checked the details but IIRC the RISUG shots were being injected into the vas above even the penis.

  20. 20
    CaptDMO says:

    Options.
    Sheesh. Squirt (age 18-25) freezer, snip.
    Of course, that falls under medical privacy, pro-choice, pre-nup disclosure protection,
    etc.
    STILL does NOTHING for STD’s of ANY kind!
    Wrap that rascal when in unfamiliar territory!
    MAY be reversible, DO NOT rely on it. ASSUME it’s forever.

    OR, sit around waiting, and expecting, magic pill “science” to come up with a “new” solution to consequences of your behavior. Reading ALL of a few pharmaceutical ads may give you an idea of current “attitudes” in modern pharma. If not, have a chat with a pharmacist about the “lifestyle” expectations, and expense, of Hep(fill in the blank), HIV, and AIDS drug “regimens”.

  21. 21
    Sir Nemesis says:

    @ richardaubrey

    If it appeared there was money to be made, somebody would have tried.
    Either big pharma doesn’t think it’s possible, or doesn’t think–after the huge outlay to develop it–that it would sell.

    It will sell. It’s just dirt cheap, so they can’t make any money off it (in fact, it could result in a reduction of pill sales, so it’s a net loss for them).

  22. 22
    Morpheus says:

    Usually of MUCH more importance is aromatase activity, and the easiest dietary way for a man to decrease aromatase conversion of testosterone is to increase both zinc and vitamin C substantially. Especially if a man has been suffering from zinc deficiency, like the majority of young men do from excessive masturbation, or has not been eating his fresh fruits and veggies.

    I take a Zinc-Magnesium supplement daily. This is the one I currently take

    http://www.allmaxnutrition.com/products-type/zma/‎

    Actually, I just got an idea for a post…most men would benefit greatly from taking a core set of supplements.

  23. 23
    Farm Boy says:

    Would the seemingly small amount of leverage that guys would attain actually be a significant amount? Sometimes a small change in how people think about a subject can have a large impact.

  24. 24
    Liz says:

    Sir Nem: “It will sell. It’s just dirt cheap, so they can’t make any money off it (in fact, it could result in a reduction of pill sales, so it’s a net loss for them).”

    Whoever has the patent would be able to control the price, at least to some extent, wouldn’t they? Some companies make money off of ideas alone.

    I’d think the limiting factor woudn’t be profit as much as potential liablity curbing those profits. There would certainly be a market for this pill.
    Hormonal contraceptives for women are quite cheap…and the IUD is about 300 dollars for the device and it’s good for 10 years.

  25. 25
    Liz says:

    This is a really informative thread….I guess I need to start giving a couple of my sons zinc.

  26. 26
    Morpheus says:

    This is a really informative thread….I guess I need to start giving a couple of my sons zinc.

    Look into Essential Fatty Acids as well. Not sure how old they are, but they are good for eye and brain development. They are also great for skin. Now I’ve never smoked cigarettes and drank in moderation, but I have the skin condition of a 25-year old, and I am absolutely convinced it is because of the EFA supplementation the past 20 years.

    http://udoerasmus.com/products/oil_blend_en.htm

    I like the 3-6-9 oil blend for guys. It has been awhile since I checked the latest research, but I think women want a blend with Primrose oil.

    As a side note, I’ll mention this. I think a lot of “official” sources will say such and such supplement is “inconclusive”. Personally, I think that is often BS driven my money. The health care industry wants you to spend money on pharmaceuticals instead of much cheaper supplements that you don’t need a scrip for.

  27. 27
    Sir Nemesis says:

    Somebody needs to buy some Gandarusa plants and start growing them in America and selling the extract.

  28. 28

    Ubiquitous, unilaterally female control of births since the advent of hormonal birth control has been the lynchpin of the feminine imperative for the past 60+ years:

    http://therationalmale.com/2011/12/21/fem-centrism/

    Sexual Revolution

    I got into a hypothetical debate with an online friend as to what it would mean to humanity (and masculinity in particular) if a new method of birth control was developed with the specific and unique ability to allow men to control conception to the same degree women were given with hormonal contraception in the mid-sixties. I thought it interesting that human effort could create reliable contraception for women in the 60′s, yet in 2011 we can map the human genome and yet not figure out how to afford men the same degree of birth control?

    Put simply, the feminine imperative will not allow this.

    Imagine the social and economic damage to the feminine infrastructure if Prometheus gave such fire to Men? Imagine that balance of control veering back into the masculine; for men to literally have the exclusive choice to fulfill a woman’s sexual strategy or not.

    The conversation got heated. Men could never be trusted with such a power! Surely humanity would come to a grinding, apocalyptic end if the feminine sexual strategy was thwarted by reliable male contraception. Societies would be sundered, populations would nosedive, and the nuclear family would be replaced with a neo-tribalism dictated by men’s sexual strategies. Honestly, you’d think the discovery of atomic weapons was on par with such an invention.

    The ridiculous, pathetic endemically juvenile and perverse masculinity that 50 years of feminization created could never be trusted to further humanity in pursuing their sex’s inborn imperatives.

    Yet, this is precisely the power that was put into the hands of women in the 1960′s and remains today. The threat that male contraception represents to the feminine imperative is one of controlling the framework of which gender’s sexual strategy will be the normative. Prior to the advent of female-exclusive hormonal birth control and the sexual revolution that resulted from it, the gender playing field was level, if not tipped in favor of masculinity due to men’s provisioning being a motivating factor in women achieving their own gender imperative. Latex prophylactics were available in the 40′s, and this may have afforded men a slight advantage, but both parties knew and agreed to the terms of their sexual activity at the time of copulation.

    Once feminine-exclusive birth control was convenient and available the locus of control switched to feminine primacy. Her imperative became the normalized imperative. His sexual imperative was only a means to achieving her own, and now the control was firmly placed in favor of feminine hypergamy. Whether in the developing world or in first world nations, the onus of directing the course of humanity fell upon women, and thus the feminine reality evolved into what it is today.

  29. 29
    richardaubrey says:

    David Foster,
    A big pharma snatching up a start-up is going to have to pay something between the price the start up sank and the potential profits the startup could make.
    Which is to say, a reasonable facsimile of doing the job itself.

  30. 30
    Morpheus says:

    A big pharma snatching up a start-up is going to have to pay something between the price the start up sank and the potential profits the startup could make.
    Which is to say, a reasonable facsimile of doing the job itself.

    Absolutely not. Big pharma have large established distribution channels/networks. They have hot 25-year olds out of business school that have relationships with doctors. They have connections to insurance companies. A small start-up is usually just R&D guys. There is big difference between developing a drug, and then actually marketing it. Doctors don’t do their own research. They are “sold” drugs.

  31. 31
    Rotten says:

    A world w/ male birth control would probably devolve, as the only men stupid enough not to use it would be the same ones reproducing.

    Otherwise, I’m not so sure a Male birth control pill changes much.

  32. 32
    Sir Nemesis says:

    @ Morpheus

    Absolutely not. Big pharma have large established distribution channels/networks. They have hot 25-year olds out of business school that have relationships with doctors. They have connections to insurance companies. A small start-up is usually just R&D guys. There is big difference between developing a drug, and then actually marketing it. Doctors don’t do their own research. They are “sold” drugs.

    Not to mention connections with FDA management.

    There is a good documentary on Netflix called “American Addict” which covers this.

  33. 33
    Liz says:

    Rollo, way back when I was a feminist I wanted men to have access to birth control even more than I do now. BADLY.

    I absolutely hated the fact that it all rested on me and I couldn’t take the pill without awful side effects. With nonoxynol-9, my girly parts looked like the ass of a female baboon and my (now) husband’s penis was chaffing with skin falling off.

    And doctors at that time (and many now) did not offer the IUD for women who hadn’t given birth to children due to potential side effects. I do not believe this is a feminist conspiracy plot. IF that were the case, it would have caught on SOMEWHERE on God’s green earth, even if not here.

  34. 34
    Morpheus says:

    Rollo, way back when I was a feminist I wanted men to have access to birth control even more than I do now. BADLY.

    Liz,

    This is one issue where I think I kind of depart from the “official” sphere position. I don’t really see the game-changing aspect of this. How does it change the “balance of power”? Maybe I am missing something or slow on the uptake, but I just don’t see it.

    The only situations where I see this as applicable is when the guy is tricked or trapped into the pregnancy so that the women can force his hand into a provisioning role. What percentage of pregnancies is this? I’ve got to think once you account for planned + purely accidental on both sides, that doesn’t leave too many where the woman intentionally gets pregnant by deceiving the guy. 5%? 10%?

  35. 35
    MNL says:

    I’m surprised at the lack of mention of testosterone or a combination of testosterone + progestogens as method of male birth control. This is available currently–though the birth control purpose would be an off-label prescription. Yea, it may not be for everyone. Like testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), there are some side effects. (I myself am on TRT and noticed a drop in testicle size, for example). But I’m surprised other men on TRT haven’t touted the male contraception “side effect” as a benefit. At this very moment (assuming I’d slept around), I could laugh in the face of any woman who told me she was pregnant and suspected me of being the father.

    http://health.howstuffworks.com/sexual-health/contraception/male-bc-pill1.htm

    http://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/news/20090506/testosterone-tested-as-male-contraceptive

  36. 36
    jf12 says:

    I’m sitting here wondering about recent revisions of HIPAA and effects on prenups. Since it is against the law to mandate access to personal health information, a voluntary release of the information is required, and the party that agrees to receive the (voluntary) release is still bound by law against disclosing it to others. So even if a prenup contains a clause saying something about sharing health information, it cannot *contain* the shared information without disclosing it! Plus, supposing the sharing of health information causes the person to back out of the agreement: then the agreement was never made! Hence, any prenup mentioning health information seems contractually invalid, to me, since it MUST appeal to invisible clauses at best, or invisible pre-prenups that were never actually made.

  37. 37
    Pellaeon says:

    Hard to say whether blue pill-ers will want it, but I imagine all of the PUA minded red pill-ers will scramble to get the operation. For myself, late twenties single male, I can’t wait until it’s available . I’ve been tracking Vasalgel essentially since they secured the rights to RISUG.

    As for profitability, Parsemus is going the non-profit route on this one: their announced strategy is to make it extremely affordable so as many men as possible can take it up.

    @Acksiom
    There’s a video, either on the vasalgel site or on RISUG, that demonstrates what the operation entails. They do make an incision on the scrotum to reach the vas deferens.

  38. 38
    Han Solo says:

    There doesn’t appear to be much pain involved in the procedure or afterwards.

    http://malecontraceptives.org/methods/risug.php

    Some of the participants in the Phase II clinical trial reported slight swelling of the testes with no associated pain. The swelling resolved itself within 2 weeks of the injection with no treatment (Guha 1997). None of the RISUG trial participants have asked to leave the study because of uncomfortable side effects. By contrast, attrition rates during male hormonal contraceptive trials can be as high as 20% of participants.

    RISUG does not cause the common side effects of a vasectomy: granulomas and an autoimmune response (Mishra 2003). A granuloma is an inflamed and sometimes painful nodule of tissue where sperm have leaked from the reproductive tract into the surrounding tissues. Men whose bodies form granulomas are having an auto-immune response to their own sperm. Once they exit the reproductive tract, the sperm are treated by the body as a foreign substance to be removed. Researchers hypothesize that RISUG does not cause these side effects because it does not fully block the vasa deferentia.

    Another concern commonly associated with vas occlusion is decreased prostate health. But 8 years after receiving a RISUG injection, men from the Phase II clinical trials all had healthy prostates (Sharma 2001).

  39. 39
    jf12 says:

    Re: zinc. A well-fed healthy male loses about 5 mg per ejaculate if he has built up a full amount, and so a three-a-day-er would lose MORE than a full RDA (currently 11 mg)
    http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Zinc-HealthProfessional/
    Naturally, even a well-fed healthy three-a-day-er does not operate at full loads all day every day, and tends to 3 mg or less per ejaculate. The point is, any young man can completely deplete all of his bodily stores within a few years, unless he specifically increases zinc intake.

  40. 40
    jf12 says:

    Somewhat off topic, but I’ll get back on shortly. Zinc is considered to be one of the seminal gifts of the male to the female, besides the hormones and prostaglandins of course, and vaginally-absorbed seminal zinc can be a significant or even predominant component of a woman’s zinc intake. It is possible, from an evo-psych perspective, that paleo men made hunting excursions and consumed the shellfish in situ while drying other fish to bring home, and consumed the game livers while in the field while butchering an animal’s other meat for transport home.

  41. 41
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    From Rollo, “Societies would be sundered, populations would nosedive, and the nuclear family would be replaced with neo-tribalism.”

    Methinks we’re close if not already there thanks to pandering to female primacy. To the first point, let’s leave that to the reader. To the second point, go to youtube and watch Demographic Winter. To the third point, consider Hillary Clinton’s quote, “It takes a village to raise a child.”

    The sexual/marriage marketplace may have to be perceived to have collapsed before this comes to reality. However, I do understand that contraceptives for men are being marketed in Indonesia at present.

  42. 42

    S
    Sir Nemesis,

    My father’s career was in photo products, mostly to doctors. My sister had a couple of female friends whose fathers had either left or died and so my dad was doing the dad thing from time to time for them.
    Two of them were really hot and were being recruited by pharma for sales. My father warned against sales. Anything else….

  43. 43

    Zinc up, my friends! We need to aspire to Peter North-style explosive payloads.

    Re: supplements. I take a whole bunch of things, but one of the ones that really made a difference *for me* in terms of both subjective feeling and objective blood panels was “megadose” levels of vitamin D3 (although D3 is not really a vitamin). By megadose I mean in excess of 5,000 IUs per day (I take at least 10,000 during the winter; if you go higher, you probably want to take K2 with it).

    Speaking peripherally of neo-triabilism, female primacy, etc. and the SMP circus… Does anyone else agree that Miley Cyrus was actually very hot back when she mixed the poledancing with this quasi-patriotic cheerleader-type thing? It was almost wholesome—sure, we knew she was probably doing MDMA-fueled 3somes and so on, but we loved her for it, anyway. The stripper/cowgirl thing worked for her and I wish she would go back to playing to her strengths (e.g., Nashville, not Compton).

    Exhibit:

    Or: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M11SvDtPBhA

    I’m sorry for the off-topic rant. It’s just been bothering me for awhile.

  44. 44
    Han Solo says:

    I added a couple of updates about timelines above (h/t to Nemesis on the Vasalgel link).

    Most of my focus was on RISUG and Vasalgel but it appears that Gandarusa is closer to mass production and distribution, perhaps as soon as this year. Vasalgel will optimistically be available in 2016, which probably means more like 2017 or 2018.

    “Research on Gandarusa had been completed … and … handed over to state pharmaceutical company Indofarma for stability testing and securing the production and distribution licenses. The process is expected to take less time because Gandarusa is considered a herbal medicine, and the pill may be available to Indonesians by prescription in 2014.”

  45. 45
    Han Solo says:

    Also, if you can’t get enough here, the discussion is going strong as well over at reddit:

    http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/20mrdx/how_would_the_male_pill_change_things/

  46. 46
    Han Solo says:

    @Bastiat

    Yes, her “wholesome sluttiness” was much more appealing than her more recent ratchet raunch queen deviance.

  47. 47

    “Ratchet raunch queen deviance” is a great phrase.

  48. 48
    jf12 says:

    Re: Psychoneuroendocrinology. Here’s a fine reference I just now re-found.
    van Anders, S., Goldey, K., Kuo, P. 2011. The Steroid/Peptide Theory of Social Bonds:
    Integrating testosterone and peptide responses for classifying social behavioral contexts. Psychoneuroendocrinology 36, 1265-1275.

    As it turns out, men who exhibit nurturing *behaviors* experience a drop in testosterone levels due to increased conversion of T to estrogens, NOT due to a drop in testosterone production. The increased estrogen is needed for the peptides’ (vasopressin and oxytocin, among others) activities. But men who *feel* nurturing but do not behave nurturing (either because of instructions, or because simply lack opportunity for nurturing) actually experience an increase in T levels!

    Hence all this stuff we’ve been saying about betas having to perform grooming: the reason females make betas groom (cuddle, pet, backscratches, footrubs) is to try to get him to convert his T to estrogen so that he will be less likely to seek sex. Period. All attempts by women to cuddle instead of sex are all for the purpose of decreasing his T.

  49. 49

    @Fuzzie #41 That’s the real societal differential. I was born in 1968, I have never known a society where control of births wasn’t unilaterally controlled by women. Hormonal birth control has been ubiquitous since before I was born, so until I considered what a society where that control was transferred unilaterally to men would look like I never realized the degree of societal control women have with that power.

    We take for granted that women ultimately decide with whom, how and if a child is born at all. For a little more than 50 years women have been the sole arbiters of men’s genetic imperative. Prior to the sexual revolution this wasn’t the case. Men played a relatively equitable part in whether women would become pregnant and parental investment.

    I don’t think this new male contraceptive will be the answer, but imagine a society where men are the sole arbiters of whether or not a woman becomes pregnant. Imagine a society where men could reach their peak SMV and then decide which woman was worth his parental investment and then reward her with the child(ren) she wants before her biological clock times out.

    This is the power women have over men under the current socio-sexual structure. Her choices decides for him what his life will become once that pregnancy occurs. Husbands can’t even get a vasectomy without their wive’s consent today for fear of the wife’s legal reprisal on the doctor performing it.

    Crime: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/10/20422793-florida-man-admits-he-tricked-girlfriend-into-taking-abortion-drug

    Not a Crime: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/07/opinion/alimony-for-your-eggs.html?_r=0

    Crime: http://www.returnofkings.com/16637/negative-hiv-tests-for-sale

    Not a Crime: http://www.dailydot.com/lifestyle/positive-pregnancy-tests-craigslist/

    This is what unilateral female control of births means to society, and since fewer and fewer generations have any previous frame of reference we just take it as normalcy.

    I’m sure there are sex-pos feminists who’ll embrace men taking responsibility for birth control, but I doubt they’ve had even the notion to think what it will mean to women’s ‘reproductive rights’ on a societal level because none of them have ever experienced a society where the unilateral control of births rested in the hands of men and became the normative for them.

  50. 50
    Cadders says:

    I think widely available, inexpensive, effective male birth control will have a huge impact on the balance of power between the sexes.

    All this talk of men being unwilling to use it, tales of side effects etc are irrelevant. Just it’s availability is a game changer. Because for women it raises the cost of babies. Babies are something that the majority of women end up craving, sooner or later. And babies are the gateway to provisioning – either by a man or big daddy government. Women will no longer have certainty that any man they have sex with is functionally fertile or not.

    If a woman sleeps around and becomes pregnant, identifying a man as the father becomes more difficult when he can claim he was on birth control. And if the resolution to that is to test his fertility with enforceable consequences – the man is on the hook if he is the father and walks away if not – then why not make DNA testing of children legally acceptable tests of paternity with enforceable consequences – the man is on the hook if he is the father and walks away if not?

    If a woman is monogamous or even married, she will need her partner’s active consent in order get pregnant. She will need to behave more in line with her man’s expectations in order to seal the deal. It would be impossible to deny that each party were 50% responsible for the pregnancy. If both partners had to take conscious action to produce the baby then how can the ‘my body – my choice’ abortion rational stand?

    I’m sure male birth control will have hosts of other unintended consequences but I suspect that they will all have one thing in common – it will force a change in the way women behave, compelling them, as a group, to be more considerate of men, as a group.

  51. 51
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Han Solo,
    Thanks for the reddit link. One wag there suggested that a pil to quell the male sex drive would even more of a game changer. While I had to laugh, I have to concede that he iis correct. Women would have to sell and men would have to buy into it. Not going to happen.

    jf12,
    I have been that bets. I think the reason women do that is out of a motive to inflict cruelty. It’s not as subtle as you suggest.
    Curiously, Girlwriteswhat has put forth the theory that grooming and provisioning is what turned humans from the tournament social model to assortive dating. This was observed in baboons.
    Being a sneaky beta worked then. Now, we’re taken for granted.

  52. 52
    jf12 says:

    Re: the herbivore pill. What if all the mgtow, and whosoever will, had a herbivore pill that made them feel all nice and cuddly and, dare I say, happy, while simultaneously decreasing their actual libido to approximately a woman’s average level of basically zilch?

  53. 53
    Han Solo says:

    @Rollo and Cadders

    It’s pretty easy to seduce men into having sex without condoms. Most men don’t really like them anyway. So the only real options for male birth control right now are vasectomy, condoms, withdrawal or abstinence–and all of those are things that men either don’t want or can be easily seduced into avoiding in the heat of the moment.

    With a reliable pill or Vasalgel injection, the power to control a man’s fertility (and hence the woman’s fertility with him) will be exercised under the more sober and rational decision process away from the intoxicating influence of female flesh grinding on a naked cock.

    Especially with the one-and-done Vasalgel injection, the woman will have to actively convince the man to have it reversed before she can have access to his (newly viable) sperm.

    Things won’t change much for carousel riding women because they’ll probably not trust the man that much anyway and still be on the pill themselves but the real change would be in committed and marital relationships where the wife wants children and can no longer easily get accidental or planned-by-her pregnancies without the man’s consent.

  54. 54
    Han Solo says:

    @Fuzzie and jf12

    The libido-decreasing pill would be an utter game changer. The desire for sex is what motivates men to pursue women and use whatever bait they can to lure them in. Men are for the most part the sexual pursuers and are usually much hornier, outside of a small percent of hyper-horny women and hypergamous women whose libido gets ramped up at the prospect of bedding someone way out of her league, perhaps to even higher levels of horniness than men.

    It reminds me of Dave Chappelle’s line, “If a man could fuck a woman in a cardboard box he wouldn’t buy a house.”

    Now change that to if a straight man didn’t want to fuck women much at all then would he even buy a proverbial “house?” Well, he would but not as nice of one. He wouldn’t work as hard. He’s pursue women about as much as women pursue men.

    Women wouldn’t be able to take men’s sexual attraction to them for granted anymore. They’d have to initiate and sell themselves on other factors besides sex.

    This would be one of the truest forms of equality between the sexes: either decrease men’s horniness to that of women’s or raise women’s to that of men’s.

  55. 55

    Things won’t change much for carousel riding women because they’ll probably not trust the man that much anyway and still be on the pill themselves,..

    You’re thinking in too limited a scope. Carousel riders only exist because women control the birthing rules and become the child-seeking wives in their 30’s. Imagine how a unilaterally-male contraceptive would alter women’s sexual behaviors.

    Initially you’d have a period of unrestrained sexuality based on our current societal norms come into predominance, but eventually, over the course of a few generations, women would learn to restrict their sexual access for the promise of monogamous insemination. The desire would remain, but the only agency women would have with men in order to conceive would be promises of fidelity.

    In the interim though, you’ll have 3 generations of aging, childless, former-carousel riding spinsters (occurring now actually) and a generation of women holding out for marriage in order to conceive.

  56. 56
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    jf12,
    The herbivore pill is an amusing concept. That is where the feminine imperative WILL draw the line. They do like being on the demand side of the equation.

    Han Solo,
    I hadn’t given much thought to this in marital relationships but, you have a point. No more “Oopsies”..
    I only considered this as protection for single men from being ambushed.
    It may affect the carousellers.They won’t be able to bushwhack a man into marriage by getting pregnant. They will have to start earlier on the mission of husband hunting.

  57. 57
    Badpainter says:

    I wonder at the possible consequences of eliminating the ability of women to actively trap men into fatherhood. Even if the actual practice is rare, and we can only speculate on that, what happens when it is all but eliminated as an option? What is the effect on the macro female mind to know that one her choices/tactics is now removed? How will the FI respond to a world where children will only be a part of family formation? I suspect some Rumsfeldian unknown unknowns.

  58. 58
    Liz says:

    Han: “So the only real options for male birth control right now are vasectomy, condoms, withdrawal or abstinence–and all of those are things that men either don’t want or can be easily seduced into avoiding in the heat of the moment.”

    Withdrawal isn’t birth control. Got pregnant twice that way. Every single woman I know (married or in a LTR) with a partner who has a vasectomy is abso-fucking-lutely ecstatic about it. I’m envious. Female contraception BLOWS. Do a google for Jezebel + male birth control pill and I’ll bet it’s a rare bird who is against it. Women don’t like getting pregnant by accident. Some do deceive, but the vast majority would love this. So that would be the only change in the power equation, in my estimation. More choices for couples (including women, squee!), less possibility of deception for the men.

  59. 59
    jf12 says:

    #54 “This would be one of the truest forms of equality between the sexes: either decrease men’s horniness to that of women’s or raise women’s to that of men’s.” Yes. A reliable *reversible* libido-killer would be a Godsend to all of the very many incels and most of the hard-up single men. Provided it didn’t kill his health, or appearance, or attractiveness to women when he decides he wants to be interested in women.

  60. 60
    Liz says:

    Oh…and saved taxpayer money! More squee!

  61. 61
    jf12 says:

    Re: soma. The herbivore pill could become the sought-after soma drug to keep the populace quiescent. It would, of course, enhance aromatase and increase oxytocin activities, among other things.

  62. 62

    If you want to see the societal effects of a male-libido inhibiting pill look no further than Japan’s boy-men culture. Hard to believe this was the culture that gave us the Samurai and Bushido code. I worry that this is the extreme end of MGTOW.

  63. 63
    jf12 says:

    #62 re: societal effects. The whole world would die off in a generation, in a sort of global lesbian bed death.

  64. 64
    jf12 says:

    #54 besides libido in general, what about “merely” suppressing the drive to ejaculate or pleasure of ejaculation? Having experienced some completely dry orgasms even when very horny, as well as the dry ones from overindulging (don’t anybody tell me they haven’t), even “big” dry ones don’t count, not to me. Or rather, they’re nice but unsatisfying, kind of like multiple little orgasms are nice but unsatisfying. It makes me wonder sometimes why women try so hard …

  65. 65
    Badpainter says:

    Rollo @ 62

    Given that Japanese culture has accepted forms of ritual suicide the herbivores may be seen in some ways as acting in that spirit at a macro level. One might say they are acting in accordance with traditions of the Bushido code by intentionally killing the society that long since has lost it’s traditional center. So I agree it’s extreme but also uniquely Japanese.

    America and the West have no such tradition of suicide. So the MGTOWs might be more analogous to those men in history that lived at the fringes of society as trappers, explorers, and mountain men, etc. They weren’t playing the game by the established rules. MGTOWs are just enjoying the decline, waiting for a better deal.

    If male birth control (hereafter referred to by myself as MBC) catches on I am most curious to see the response to reports of usage. How does the media spin a study showing 75% of men 18-25 using Vasalgel? It’s gonna be interesting.

  66. 66
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    I am not going to link it but, there is a BBC documentary on youtube called No Sex Please, We’re Japanese. It runs an hour and is feminist oriented but, the second half covers the dangers of an inverted demographic pyramid that is soft pedaled in the program. That part is horrifying.
    What happened to the Samurai? The morphed into bureaucrats during the Meijii Restoration.
    I ahve heard that there is a female reaction to the depth of the herbivores in Japan. They call them “Dried Fish” women. They have given up to the point where they wear shoes indoors in their homes, a big deal there.

  67. 67
    Escoffier says:

    The practice of suicide was robust in the Ancient world in the West, particularly in Rome. Christianity got rid of it.

  68. 68
    Bloom says:

    I have long wondered why men would not actively demand more options than the two (three?) currently available within their complete control. Condoms? Vasectomy? Abstinence? Is that really the best “modern science” can do for the male? (and his partner?) Oh wait, thats right, even worse there have *been no advances* in this area in recent history despite incrediable advances in medical science over the same timeframe otherwise, including of course cheek swab over-the-counter paternity testing. If I were a man, I think I’d be lobbying for some demand-based development in this area for sure. And actually, were I in the pharma r and d industry, I’d be betting the entire company r and d budget that even one such advance would pay out more than owning all the slot machines in Vegas. It’s low hanging fruit ripe for picking! (Sorry, couldn’t resist the bad pun!) And, despite what some may think, I bet men would find women in complete enthusiastic support of the quest for male contraceptive equality. Perhaps it’s time to challenge the age-old (pre-paternity testing) assumption that men want to sow their genetic seed any chance they get. Thats probably why women, who have always had to face their reproductive fate more directly, lobbied for the pill and other options. Even women with a single life partner and a happy relationship likely don’t desire a baby every other year left to natures choice, so it’s not just hypergamy dames happy to have family planning options. I think we all deserve them, men and women — and a rapidly populating but finite resource planet alike.

  69. 69
    Badpainter says:

    Escoffier@67

    Indeed true, but there no such tradition the West for the last several hundred years and never in America. Throwing ones self on a grenade is not the same as suicide to avoid shame, or mitigate failure both of which have been frowned up on for quite some time.

  70. 70
    A Definite Beta Guy says:

    The male sex drive suppression pill would not be opposed by feminists, but lionized as a corrective measure against “defective” men. Creepy defective men. Men committing even the slightest street harassment could be prescribed a regimen of this drug.

    Keep in mind the female frustration with their male friends: how DARE you sexualize me! At the conscious level they think they are actually interesting enough to merit attention from males without a sexual spark.

    To them this would be a wonder-land keeping them from being sexually assaulted by creepy men and keeping male sexual interest at a low level, to a simmer, that won’t actually inconvenience them.

    It will backfire, but the haughty often dream themselves unbreakable.

  71. 71
    Sir Nemesis says:

    @ BB #43

    Agreed. Miley Cyrus was rather hot in that, even if I didn’t much care for the theme of that song.

  72. 72
    Sir Nemesis says:

    The cool thing about Gandarusa is that it doesn’t really change anything, except make the sperm tips incapable of penetrating eggs. So biologically, your body is not going to have to deal with stuck sperm or anything.

  73. 73
    Sir Nemesis says:

    @ jf12

    #62 re: societal effects. The whole world would die off in a generation, in a sort of global lesbian bed death.

    Maybe that’s what the world deserves.

  74. 74
    Badger says:

    “Re: supplements. I take a whole bunch of things, but one of the ones that really made a difference *for me* in terms of both subjective feeling and objective blood panels was “megadose” levels of vitamin D3 (although D3 is not really a vitamin). By megadose I mean in excess of 5,000 IUs per day (I take at least 10,000 during the winter; if you go higher, you probably want to take K2 with it).”

    I encourage every guy to try each of the basic male supplements and see what has an effect.

    I felt an immediate effect in mood, focus and thought when I started on Omega-3 (fish-derived, ~3000mg/day depending on whether I get the 1000mg or 1200mg gelcaps…thank you Athol Kay for the rec).

    I took a daily men’s multivitamin but didn’t keep to it because I had to take it while eating (nausea) and always forgot, and found that O3 was probably the biggest gain.

    I’ve been on 5000IU of Vitamin D for about the past year, haven’t noticed much difference that I can tell but my numbers will reveal the truth. Also I’ve tried theanine, which has been outstanding giving me a major mental boost. Going to try the zinc-mag next, but I know I’ve got at least two things that really help and I don’t let myself run out of them.

    I’ve heard some chatter about selenium (Brazil nuts) but my buddy who is in the know tells me my diet should be giving me enough so I haven’t been motivated to try the expensive suckers.

    Honestly, the biggest challenge for me is keeping consistent sleep schedules. It’s really one of my top one or two things I need to sharpen to get my game and my life to be better. Sleep is when T is produced I am told. I’ve been thinking about trying out HGH because I hear it gives you the most ridiculous restful sleep.

    “A reliable *reversible* libido-killer would be a Godsend to all of the very many incels and most of the hard-up single men.”

    Shit, I get this every time I let myself get sleep-deprived. Actually, I find a circuit of not getting enough sleep starts with a day or two of enhanced executive function and elevated acute libido. (I figure this is related to the same effect that causes sleep deprivation to relieve refractory depression.) Following the quick boost, I get into a major rut when my EF and libido both go in the tank.

  75. 75
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    I would hate to see the “lesbian bed death” scenario. It might be the ideal espoused by radical feminists and that alone is enough to detest it. Anyway, it can’t happen. There is a theory floating around in academis that sometime, in prehistory, there was a terrible disaster and humans were reduced to twelve reproducing couples worldwide. We bounced back.
    Found this on wikipedia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_bottleneck

  76. 76
    Bloom says:

    @70

    Gosh I hope not re a male sexual suppression pill! I suppose when I was younger I had trouble dealing with unrequited attention but with time I realized its a compliment, not an affront. Now I just smile back, wink, and keep going about my day. If I am more interested, I might somehow drop a subtle crumb trail that he can follow up on to see what he does with it. If he doesn’t pursue, that’s ok too. I just appreciate the moment for the mutual “yep yep” check it was and carry on.

    However I do personally know adult women who are threatened by unsolicited male attention, and at least anecdotally can report it’s more about these friends past childhood (or teenage) sexual abuse (and unwelcome attention that clearly crossed the line when they were unable to push back) than it is about the current situation. About 1 in 5 women have experienced such abuse, according to statistics, if I recall correctly. And in some cases these women will experience longtime inability to enjoy even welcomed/wanted sexual attention or true intimacy, sadly. Likewise, Male friends who have been victims of sexual abuse have shared being wounded in a similar way. I am sure there are other scenarios but if someone hyper reacts to a casual flirtation (or even a possibly imagined one), this may be why. Medically castrating all men is obviously not the solution. Medically castrating convicted sexual predators might be (another topic of discussion entirely…)

  77. 77
    jf12 says:

    #76 what is your precise objection to giving men control over their libidos?

  78. 78
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    About the male sexual supression pill, we were joking.
    About your citation of the “one in five”, all that stems from a thoroughly debunked study commissioned by Ms magazine years ago and attributed to Mary Koss. She cited one in four. This thing has fueled rape hysteria for decades and it’s still being used.

    jf12,
    If Bloom doesn’t respond, allow me to deduce that she likes the attention and is mature enough to deal with it.

    Another thought: there do seem to be a lot of women who can’t deal with it and, in most cases, I would ascribe it to maturity.

  79. 79
    Badpainter says:

    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    “…there do seem to be a lot of women who can’t deal with it and, in most cases, I would ascribe it to maturity.”

    The cynic within says they deal with this just Fine, but the displays of offense and outrage are just to gain more attention, prove status, prove attractiveness, validate esteem, etc. In other words they are double dipping.

    Example: ” I was really feeling cute today and my new shoes went so well with the new top, and this bad man looked at me funny and called ‘toots’, all his frends also stared, it made me uncomfortable, and reminded my of my creepy homeroom teacher who was always looking at boobs. I can’t help it if they’re big, and now my day is ruined”

    The cynic within also thinks that many, many claims of past abuse, “date-rape”, etc. are merely attention whoring. No one who has an ounce of social awareness will outright challenge such claims. There’s zero risk being caught a liar, and custom dictates automatic grants of sympathy and emotional validation. Of course such claims must be accepted without question, at face value.

  80. 80
    Bloom says:

    @76 if man wanted to have such a pill by all means, I was saying rather that to suggest blanket medicate guys in some attempt to “contain all men” is pure poppycock.

    @78 when I was younger and less secure in my self, getting checked out was more threatening bc I didn’t know how to shut it down politely if it wasnt mutual. These days, as I said I chalk it up as a compliment, even if I don’t feel the same. I was writing a longer (ha!) post giving an example of how far some misguided pua’s can take it but the browzer crashed so short version, dont whip it out unsolicited and ask me what i think. (it happened! and no, even though overall he looked like a statue of Zeus himself, it didnt even close to work.) I can see after a few such advances why women have their shields up, but thats not what I am describing in my previous post, hopefully obviously. In most cases, it’a simply men being the visual creatures they are and I don’t take offense. Not that I go out of my way to trigger it, I have for whatever reason always gotten more attention than most of my female friends so if anything I pretty actively downsize my signals, dress conservative, act the proper lady, and such. Not bragging, in fact for a long time I had a hang up about it bc it caused me lots of guff from the other gals. If I still get checked despite my low key vibe he’ll get a wink or a wave in thanks followed by no further encouragement, rather than be treated like a creep. And again, I am careful not to mislead anyone or play them bc that’s just not my style. If I more actively return interest, it’s pretty much game on, green light! ;) A woman who is interested makes it known by flirting back, if she’s not flirting back or at least continuing to be coy or otherwise engage assume the opposite but don’t take it personal, could be for any number of reasons (she’s got a guy, she’s stressed or distracted, she’s hormonal, she’s just been burned, shes got somwhere to be, yada yada….) A guy shouldn’t assume necessarily “it’s him.” If she shoots you a creep look, assume even that’s not about you, unless you are being a creep of course! But chances are unless you are being socially inappropriate, she’s just still coming to terms with her own feminine energy and that having it doesn’t make her a slut or a tease or all the other female “flipside” versions of the “be nice” advice males get.

  81. 81
    Bloom says:

    @79 trust me I have narrowly escaped (tg) date rape twice, once at 17, again at 34. Both time fast talking and getting the hell out of there saved me. It really does happen. False accusations likely happen too but just saying…

  82. 82
    Sir Nemesis says:

    Well, according to CDC statistics, 1 in 4 women reported being raped in their lifetime. As have 1 in 16 men.

  83. 83
    Badpainter says:

    Would that be the same CDC that predicted a heterosexual AIDS epidemic in the early 1990s, or the CDC that suggests meat (preferably no beef) be no more than 10% of your diet?

    How is this not more visible day to day throughout the country? Detroit has a violent crime rate (rape, murder, assault, armed robbery combined) of only 2.4%. Even without considering under reporting it’s one of the most violent cities in the country.

    I’m just not convinced that 1 in 4 women suffer forcible rape in their lifetime.

  84. 84
    evilwhitemalempire says:

    On this issue of there being money to be made.

    WTF? You’re joking right?

    Of course there would be money to be made!

    So why aren’t a few ‘mice nuts’ being supplied to get the thing up and running?

    Obviously because there are those that don’t want it to happen.

    And the culprits need not be limited to feminists protecting a woman’s God given right to a man’s income (sarcasm).

    While viable male contraceptive would make a lot of money for those that provide it, some of those very same providers might lose a hell of a lot more money in other ways.

    Consider how much money men spend that they would never (NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER!) spend if they weren’t tied to a wife and kids.

    And, most of all, while the elites may be interested in reducing total world population, I’m pretty sure they don’t want it reduced to 23 Amish people.

    And, let’s be frank, you KNOW that figure is just barely an exaggeration.

  85. 85
    Johnycomelately says:

    Sexual suppression is an ancient practice, eunuchs have always been around in slave based despotic societies, that’s certainly not something to aspire to.

    Had to add this, from the wiki page on eunuchs, from the Roman poet Martial, circa 80 AD.

    “Do you ask, Panychus, why your Caelia only consorts with eunuchs? Caelia wants the flowers of marriage – not the fruits.” There is nothing new under the sun (apparently eunuchs who didnt have the penis removed could still maintain an erection with physical stimulation).

    Male contraception would be an unmitigated disaster, if female contraception exacerbated the 80/20 divide what would male contraception do? Alpha fucks and beta bucks to the nth degree, not to mention the unforseeable social and legal ramifications.

    The female desire for fucking without consequences is an ancient one, heck the ancient world over harvested Silphium (herbal contraceptive) to the extent that they caused its extinction.

    Be careful what you wish for, two wrongs don’t make a right.

  86. 86
    jf12 says:

    #80 “A woman who is interested makes it known by flirting back” this much is true. Hence, we know that there are only a few men that interest women.

  87. 87
    jf12 says:

    #84 The family experience. The vast majority of men’s effort is expended in order to get the family experience. NOT the girlfriend experience, and not the fishing boat experience, but the wife & kids experience.

  88. 88
    Liz says:

    #87: My husband wanted children more than I did. I don’t think we’ll be left with 23 Amish people on the planet if male birth control is available. That herb which doesn’t block sperm but only (according to Sir Nem) attenuates the sperm head sounds too good to be true…which means, unfortunately, it likely is. But I’m hopeful.

    We will see far fewer gold digging whores capitalizing on deception, which is a good thing for everyone.

  89. 89
    Liz says:

    I’ve actually known quite a few husbands who have talked their wives into having kids (or more kids). One had a romantic evening watching ‘Cheaper By the Dozen’ and talked her into number four. I know another who had one daughter and when she turned 8 he really, really wanted to try for that boy…well, his wife got pregnant with triplet girls (this is a true story). Children aren’t just a one-way, aging spinster with baby-rabies-traps-man equation.

    Sometimes the sphere has a bit of a ‘no one I know voted for Nixon!’ feel to it. Lots of men want families and children, and they don’t all keep their ballsacks in their wives’ purses.

  90. 90
    Mr. Toes says:

    My favourite vitamin is methylated B12 in 1000 mcg sublingual tabs. It’s a big dose, so I don’t take more than 1-2 per month, but if I am ever having trouble focusing or my brain feels sluggish, it’s almost guaranteed to stop that and turn me back into a programming or mathematics wizard.

    Do not get the cyano-B12, it is useless.

    Other than that, Ca/Mg/Zn (1000/666/45 mg total), Vitamin D varies, perhaps 3000 IU/day when not expected sun exposure (can be toxic over long periods), 60 mcg of K2 (MK-4) per day, and about 1-2 g of vitamin C per day. If you’ve never taken large doses of Vitamin D you can easily get away with big doses for a year or so. After that you can definitely cut-back.

  91. 91
    Mr. Toes says:

    On multivitamins: I would avoid them. Most aren’t well balanced. If you eat any sort of offal you should not need the high doses of vitamin A they contain.Also the formulations of B-vitamins are generally not bioactive in humans (they are cheap) and toxic quite quickly. It’s much better to analyze your typical weekly diet and then add what seems to be missing.

    For men, the added iron is generally a bad thing as well. Excessive iron can contribute to biofilm development in the gut (along with calcium in particular). It’s better to control your iron intake by cycling on and off of beef. Beef is a common food allergen, but at the same time when I hear of people who have digestive problems with it, it’s probably often the iron disrupting their gut flora that is the problem.

  92. 92
    Liz says:

    Mr Toes, thanks for the information! Would you mind providing the brand names of vitamins you use? I don’t know which formulations for B vitamins, for instance, would be ‘bioactive’ versus cheap and inactive.
    This thread is awesome.

  93. 93
    jf12 says:

    #89 “Lots of men want families and children, and they don’t all keep their ballsacks in their wives’ purses.” I agree with the first part and I wasn’t kidding about men paying to have the family experience: it’s what motivates almost all men to do almost everything they do. I disagree with the second part: that’s part of the payment for having the family experience, and the universality is not ameliorated by a unicorn counterexample.

  94. 94
    Farm Boy says:

    The cynic within says they deal with this just Fine, but the displays of offense and outrage are just to gain more attention, prove status, prove attractiveness, validate esteem, etc. In other words they are double dipping

    Not so cynical, I do think. Women associate attention with “garnering resources”. And they do want resources. So a twofer is very tempting.

  95. 95
    Farm Boy says:

    Lots of men want families and children,

    Yes, they do. But they also realize that they are walking on the edge if they do it. Everything has to be just right, or they get screwed.

    It is enough to wish that guys could have children without women.

  96. 96
    Escoffier says:

    So, I recall reading something along the following lines somewhere, possibly Athol’s. It was all news to me and I have no idea if it’s true but it was interesting.

    Basically, several men and women both testified that, after he got a vasectomy, she lost interest. Something in her just shut down. It wasn’t conscious. But somehow the conscious knowledge that he could no longer get her pregnant led to the subconscious conclusion that he was no longer a “real man.” And so attraction died.

    Assuming this is true, at least for some women, wouldn’t the male pill have the same effect?

    Or is the answer (for men) to use it and not to tell? That wouldn’t work universally as some girls would insist on a condom. But then some would anyway, even if they were convinced that he was truly on the “male pill.”

  97. 97
    Farm Boy says:

    Assuming this is true, at least for some women, wouldn’t the male pill have the same effect?

    But would she even know in many cases?

  98. 98
    Escoffier says:

    I thought I addressed that but, maybe, maybe not.

    The sluttier and more impulsive a girl is, the less likely she is to even bring up the subject in the heat of the moment. But especially in the UMC, most carousel riders are hard-core careerists. They don’t want to get knocked up before they are “ready,” which is not in their 20s. So presumably they would pause the proceedings and raise the subject of “protection.”

    At that point, if a guy says “I’m on the male pill”, does her attraction wane? Or, if he doesn’t want to admit it, does she insist on a condom? If so, does that diminish the usefulness of the male pill to him? Why get that awful shot if I still have to wrap it?

  99. 99
    Farm Boy says:

    UMC, most carousel riders are hard-core careerists

    Would they not already be on the pill? Would the subject come up in that case?

  100. 100
    Escoffier says:

    Honestly, I have no idea what % of 20-something single women are on the pill these days. I have some notion that usage has declined from its peak, but I may have imagined that.

  101. 101
    Farm Boy says:

    I would hate to see the “lesbian bed death” scenario.

    Idiocracy would be the more likely scenario. Cue Fuzzie.

  102. 102
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Farm Boy, is this what you had in mind?

  103. 103
    Liz says:

    Interesting bit about vasectomies and waning desire, Escoffier.
    I hadn’t heard of that. I wonder if there is some change in the ejaculate itself that might be linked to the “reduced attachment”/desire level?
    I know sperm only makes up 5 percent or less of the composition, but there are a lot of chemicals associated with that stuff…some have anti-depressant effects on women and I think I’ve read that a woman can become somewhat “addicted” to her partner in this way.

    Cool article on semen:
    http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/2010/09/22/an-ode-to-the-many-evolved-virtues-of-human-semen/

  104. 104
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    I think Farm Boy has tipped us all off to one of the unintended consequences of all this contraception. Careless people will breed while careful people won’t as much. Couple that with women delaying marriage to establish careers and we are headed to a demographic winter.
    I am still of the mind that single men should avail themselves of this protection.

  105. 105

    […] Hans Solo over at JustFourGuys blog explores how the male pill will change the reproductive rights of men: […]

  106. 106

    Badger, Mr. Toes: not sure if you guys have experimented with “Bulletproof” coffee (high-quality coffee, probably single-sourced from Central America + MCT or coconut oil + grass-fed butter like the Kerrygold unsalted/silver package), but I’ve become a big fan of this mix. You can pair it with theanine and the combo works pretty well.

    Moreover, the BP coffee interfaces very well with the Paleo diet, intermittent fasting/regulated autophagy, some of the more potent nootropic stacks, etc.

  107. 107

    #62

    Japanese men don’t tend to do anything in moderation. The herbivore phenomenon and the Bushido myth (after all, it was nothing but a packaged myth designed to foster nationalism) are both manifestations of that. It’s probably due to all the traumas suffered throughout their history, from the forced opening of their markets to the Americans, to their general mimicking of Western culture during and after the Meiji Restoration, and finally their apocalyptic defeat in 1945. They have no traditional culture to guide their behavior in productive ways.

  108. 108
    Sir Nemesis says:

    @ Badpainter #83

    Date rape. It is real.

    I’m not saying the CDC isn’t biased. It is. It classified men being “forced to penetrate” as sexual assault rather than rape, so that it could report that rape of males is a lot less common than 1 in 16, and so that it could say that the majority of rapes against men are perpetrated by males.

    Incidentally, the percent of women who were raped in the past 12 months (1.1%) the same as the percent of men who were “forced to penetrate” within the past 12 months…

  109. 109
    Badpainter says:

    Rape is rape. Date rape is distracting PC bullshit that makes actual law and law enforcement more difficult by creating gray areas that needn’t exist. 

    1 in 4 is an equally bullshit statistic.

    If one looks just at Detroit:

    Reported rate of occurrence 2011-  59.9/100k

    Approx. 50300 women in city.

    427 rapes in 2011 reported

    Life expectancy of 78.7yrs.

    Need 1597 rapes per year to reach  25% of women raped once/lifetime

    That would mean almost 3/4 are unreported. 

    Now tell me how does one verify the the actual number of incidents of rape when some number are under reported? Do we just take the word of anyone who answers they survey? Those things not quite rape are also very problematic because the crime is often defined by the alleged victim. Read up on the study done by Ms. magazine that was the source of the 1 in 4 stat. It’s not honest, but it is propaganda to serve the FI.

    I have a friend whose now ex wife worked in the county attorney’s office back home. I come from an isolated college town about 30k pop.  approx 1/3 are students.  Anyway, this gal said in the last year she worked there were about 12 reports of rape from the university, and couple from from the townies. Of the twelve campus rapes all were investigated, none prosecuted. She called it “buyers remorse.” But the good news was at least one of the accused killed himself and most of the others accused quit school and left town. That’s OK because patriarchy. 

    Real rape, forcible rape is unquestionably a crime, and certainly happens. But it seems the interests of justice are poorly served by cooking the stats, and making all but impossible to put a defense.

  110. 110
  111. 111
    Nekros says:

    Re: male libido.

    its already exists, a chemical anyway. according to my brother who is in the military, back in basic, they spike the drinking water from faucets/water fountains with this chemical, and it kills the sex drive. after he switched to Gatorade, 2 days later he was able to stand at attention.

    personally, that initially sounds awesome. but someone brought up forcing all non-20% men to take it, so women don’t deal with “unwanted attention” from unwanted men. a scene going through my head shows that only the affluent men could purchase food from a retailer who specifically sells non-drugged food, at an inflated price. therefore, creating even more of a harem structure than we have now. maybe that’s a bit paranoid, but something to ponder

  112. 112
    Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    #54: The libido-decreasing pill would be an utter game changer.

    I was on some meds for a few months that killed my libido, and I’ll vouch that it would indeed be a game changer. It’s like night and day.

    I can’t imagine what the effects would be if that sort of thing were generally available to men. I would hazard a guess that they wouldn’t be pleasant for society, though. Without male libido to filter our perceptions, women are just incompetent men with bad attitudes.

  113. 113
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    You may not be aware of it but, things have changed since we were kids. Back in our day, gals made an effort to let a guy down gently. Overall, that worked to the benefit of women because if the first gal wasn’t into him, maybe the next one would be. I had never heard of “nuclear rejections” until I came to this corner of the internet. Presently, there are gals out there who do their level best to crush a guythey’re not into and simply don’t care.
    While cads might let go of this easily, a guy who cares is going to be affected. He’ll be hesitant.

  114. 114
    Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    #111: someone brought up forcing all non-20% men to take it

    Most likely, they wouldn’t need to be forced. It’s a tremendous psychological relief not to have that crap pulling at you. Of course, your motivation to do things subsides along with that lack of tension. Bad for society, but relaxing for the man in question.

    If I had been single at the time, I probably would have tried to stay on those meds for longer. As it was, they were not a good thing for maintaining a marriage, and marital vows required that I get off of them asap.

  115. 115
    Farm Boy says:

    Without male libido to filter our perceptions, women are just incompetent men with bad attitudes.

    Priceless. That is what modern women look like, don’t they? It is a good thing that men “just gotta have it”.

    NAWALT

  116. 116

    I’d say male libido suppressants have a much larger potential market than a theoretical male birth control pill, which would only be useful to a tiny minority of wealthy alphas anyway.

  117. 117
    Farm Boy says:

    I have two nephews who “married each other”, that is they bought a modest house toghether, work modest jobs and play video games. I wonder if they would be in a market for such a pill…

    Once a guy decides that women are not worth it and goes MGTOW, such a pill could help in that task.

  118. 118

    #115

    I’d argue that women, by and large, have always been like that. They tolerated their fate as long as they had no other options, but later…

  119. 119
    jf12 says:

    #112 “Without male libido to filter our perceptions, women are just incompetent men with bad attitudes.” Yes, accurately said. Although acknowledging that fact certainly doesn’t make me feel any better, I wonder how it makes women feel to know that’s how precarious men’s filter is?

  120. 120
    Farm Boy says:

    I’d argue that women, by and large, have always been like that.

    Not always. My Mom was a real lady.

  121. 121
    jf12 says:

    #166 my thinking too. We should lobby for the right to have a monthly libido cycle.

  122. 122
    Obsidian says:

    @Han:
    As per usual, outstanding post! And on such a timely topic, as I do think we could very well see the introduction of the Male Pill within the next decade, if not sooner – and then the fun, really begins…

    O.

  123. 123
    Farm Boy says:

    If we are going to drug boys, what is one more drug?

    Boys could be identified at a young age as to whether they will be hot, kind of like how the Chinese filter out future Olympic athletes when they are todlers. Then the ones not making the cut could be given the drug. I am sure that feminists would approve.

  124. 124

    #110

    Of course it isn’t parody. A large segment of women actually behave that way.

  125. 125
    Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    #121: We should lobby for the right to have a monthly libido cycle.

    I say we go full Pon Farr. Seven years, followed by ritual combat and babes for the survivors.

  126. 126
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Farm Boy,
    I followed your link from #110. While at the bottom it was labeled under satire, there’s just too much truth in it. Young women who adopt these attitudes ruin themselves for marriage and doubly so as mothers.
    About your nephews, I wish they didn’t have to take this course.
    In reading that link, try to imagine a bear shuddering. UGH!

  127. 127
    Farm Boy says:

    While at the bottom it was labeled under satire, there’s just too much truth in it

    How can it be parody when it is indistinguishable from what a typical feminist would write?

  128. 128
    Badpainter says:

    “How can it be parody when it is indistinguishable from what a typical feminist would write?”

    It’s a badly construed parody. The author should have gone full retard with it.

    Maybe we should have a contest to write the best such satire/parody.

  129. 129
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Farm Boy,
    I hate being reminded of that post. It has to be satire because your usual feminist would spoon feed those points over several essays, not all at once. Too much of it and all at once.
    UGH! Imagine bear shuddering.

    Another thing that makes me sad is that MGTOW is a reasonable life path in this sick culture.
    More shuddering.

  130. 130
    Tam the Bam says:

    Fuzzers@113:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcNDBYT-EU4 Larn ‘em, boy.

  131. 131
    Farm Boy says:

    because your usual feminist would spoon feed those points over several essays

    Probably so. One would need to make them seem less ludicrous by doing so. So, deep down, they know that it is a silly approach.

    That post seems earily similar to that post at SSM’s from that woman teaching English in China.

  132. 132
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Tam the Bam,
    Your link doesn’t work. Don’t know why but, I would watch it.

  133. 133
  134. 134
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Farm Boy,
    What a peach she was!

  135. 135
    Liz says:

    “How can it be parody when it is indistinguishable from what a typical feminist would write?”

    Much of today’s reality is the stuff of yesterday’s parody, Farm boy.
    The writer is just a few years off.

  136. 136
    Tam the Bam says:

    O …. arse. Triple root canal w/sedation and fruit liqueurs do not mix. Despite my fondest delusions. Once more unto the breach, my friends!

    Thing is, you’ld a bin even twice annoyed by a post neart as long’s me arm I done, over how shite all a’ that Boolsheeto Japoon cark was. Wroten it thrice, thon posty. “Invalid security token” my fat, sweaty red scotch erse. They can kiss it.

  137. 137
    Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    Crivens!

  138. 138
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Tam the Bam,
    That was the first time I have seen that guy. It took a while for the message to sink in. Now, I think I need some aspirin.

  139. 139
    jf12 says:

    #125 I feel quite ponfarrish enough after seven days. Every single month, without letup, for the past fifty three years already.

  140. 140
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    At least in the Vulcan Pon Farr scenario, they did manage to find a workaround.

  141. 141
    deti says:

    @ Johny come lately:

    “The female desire for fucking without consequences is an ancient one, heck the ancient world over harvested Silphium (herbal contraceptive) to the extent that they caused its extinction.”

    Ezekiel 23:12-14,17-21 (NKJV):
    “She lusted for the neighboring Assyrians,
    Captains and rulers,
    Clothed most gorgeously,
    Horsemen riding on horses,
    All of them desirable young men.
    13 Then I saw that she was defiled;
    Both took the same way.
    14 But she increased her harlotry;
    She looked at men portrayed on the wall,
    Images of Chaldeans portrayed in vermilion,

    17 “Then the Babylonians came to her, into the bed of love,
    And they defiled her with their immorality;
    So she was defiled by them, and alienated herself from them.
    18 She revealed her harlotry and uncovered her nakedness.
    Then I alienated Myself from her,
    As I had alienated Myself from her sister.
    19 “Yet she multiplied her harlotry
    In calling to remembrance the days of her youth,
    When she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.
    20 For she lusted for her paramours,
    Whose flesh is like the flesh of donkeys,
    And whose issue is like the issue of horses.
    21 Thus you called to remembrance the lewdness of your youth,
    When the Egyptians pressed your bosom
    Because of your youthful breasts.

    Translation to easy-to-read modern English:

    “She (Oholibah, the adulterous woman about whom this is written) longed for strange cock. She saw the neighboring alpha men, they were handsome to her and looked hot. She was an adulteress and a slut, and she increased in her sluttery, looking at pictures of hot men.

    “Then more hot alpha cads from Babylon saw her, and they fucked her too. After they fucked her, she left them for other men. Then she told her husband all about the hot men she allowed to fuck her, and her husband divorced her.

    “After her husband divorced her, she decided to cougar it up like she did when she was young and hot, back at home and in college. She lusted after those guys whose cocks were as big as donkeys’ cocks; and who came and ejaculated like horses. She remembered fondly her past days as a young slut, when the young strange men felt her up because her tits were so firm.”

    Everything old is new again. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

  142. 142
    jf12 says:

    #140 Hologram sims to satisfy the pair-bonded oneitis?

    Supposing one knew where to insert the quarters, as well as having enough quarters, could the majority of beta men actually be satisfied with a mechatronic woman sim that wasn’t querulous and unpredictable and demanding of bananas and grooming?

  143. 143
    Farm Boy says:

    The Pon Pharr workaround was to fake Kirk’s death, though sexbots on the holodeck do not seem the a bad idea.

  144. 144
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    I wish that I could bring us all some hope. There is one thing that I am falling back to, assortive mating works. This reversion to the tournament model won’t. It’ll turn around when the gals figure it out. At present, there are a lost of angry second wives and mothers of sons.
    Keep the faith, guys.

  145. 145
    Farm Boy says:

    when the young strange men felt her up because her tits were so firm.”

    Everything old is new again

    That probably did not apply to her tits.

  146. 146
    Bloom says:

    @ fuzzie agreed, some women do nuclear reject. I think it says a lot more about who they are than the guy they are being so rude to. And think of it as them doing a favor almost, they put who they are (yuck! rude!) right out there. And I’d be willing to bet nuclear rejectors don’t make good partners, mothers, or are basically just not nice people, so nothing lost. Better to avoid them, nothing but trouble no matter how cute the package. They are either just plain mean or perhaps they are just so unsure of their ability to navigate the smp that they freak out anytime any guy who isn’t their “perfect preconceived type” approaches. Even in that case, they are troubled and best avoided.

    @jf12, I get what you are saying. The dating game, for the most part, sucks. Most of the time it is going to lead to “not a match” just by the nature of it. There are lots of men, and lots of women but the odds of finding one who gets you and you get them and it clicks are slim. But it happens. It’s easy to go toward the “all guys are jerks/all girls are evil” thinking but it doesn’t help and becoming jaded decreases the odds or leads to one giving up on the hope altogether. If possible, don’t go to the mental dark side. There is no “perfect guy all women want.” The guys I like aren’t all women’s cup of tea for sure. In fact that guy most other women are drawn to, the player the charmer, the fast talking pua, the money or power hungry doesn’t appeal to me! I’d take the deep thinker and witty conversationalist with a fun personality, maybe goofy even, community minded, volunteering for some good cause, with solid character, and a life filled with other interesting pursuits any day! Deep goes a lot further (w me anyway) than shallow. She’s out there! Keep going…

  147. 147
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    In your message to jf12, I can answer for myself. We do get tired of it all.

  148. 148
    Farm Boy says:

    I’d be willing to bet nuclear rejectors don’t make good partners, mothers, or are basically just not nice people, so nothing lost.

    Well, this applies to most modern women. When I was going through my 20’s and eyeing my age cohort, I was shocked by the fact that they would have made very poor mothers. It was a real demotivator with respect to finding a girlfriend. If a woman does not at least have the raw material to be a good mother by then, then she probably never will be a good mom. It is sad for all of the children that they eventually had.

  149. 149
    Bloom says:

    Fuzzie, I get tired of it all too, trust me! Sigh…

  150. 150
  151. 151
    jf12 says:

    #146 thanks, but I’m married again, stupid me. “The dating game, for the most part, sucks.” STRICTLY because the women are too picky, and too believing that there is a more perfect match out there for her. The vast majority of men would be pleased with any one of the majority of women, if she bothered to not treat him as preferring him to be beneath the dirt under her feet. The vast majority of women ARE displeased even though they can *always* have one or more of the majority of men at her beck and call, with infinite backrubs and footrubs for her, for the mere promise of sex maybe sometime.

    The dark side is, unfortunately, what works with women. Not the just mental dark side, the dark triad; although yes that certainly works too. The majority of men wish women responded better to nice men; obviously the vast majority of women cannot be bothered to respond better.

  152. 152
    Bloom says:

    So perhaps, as has been said many times, men want a good girl w a bad side, and women want a bad boy w a good side!

    All very interesting, and I certainly don’t have the answers, I am trying to figure it out myself. Similar to how I am reading some men feel about what they have been advised, i am wondering why some of the things I have been told all my life will make it work for women, really don’t.

    What do they call the female version of blue pill/red pill?

  153. 153
    Bloom says:

    Perfect example jf12, what you describe as far as “the vast majority of men would be pleased with any one of a majority of women” is something I have probably never heard said aloud before! Women are constantly told the opposite “Men don’t want to commit.” Consider for example, the article after article in women’s magazines, movies, books, etc. about this dilemma of the noncommittal man. So then…women approach male-female relationships with this assumption, which likely explains all sorts of misunderstanding and drama. Egads! Enlightening!

    As far as women always wondering if they could do better and actually being the noncommittal ones, I hear women say the opposite, but interesting to think how that may be at play perhaps on some subconscious/biological/ancient level and if so why. I will ponder it….

    I appreciate you sharing that and wish more of these discussions were happening. Maybe both men and women would be happier for it!

  154. 154
    jf12 says:

    #152 good questions, and there are answers. The female version is also called blue pill/red pill, i.e. unawareness/awareness of the same truths, getting rid of fallacious beliefs and inoculating against false biases. One important truth to keep in mind is that the genders are not symmetrical but we can agree on any one truth from different points of view; for example a woman showing respect to a man makes it easier for him to love her, but a man showing love to a woman does not make it easier for her to respect him. A second big truth is individual projection, which we’ve touched on: for example women believe men in general don’t want to commit because women in general only want commitment from a very few men, the few highly-desired men, which are the very ones who have multiple girlfriends and therefore don’t want to commit!. Women’s projection about this issue is clouded by hypergamy. And most men act beta, i.e. nice and placating, because of projection: that’s the behavior we want to see from women, so we erroneouslly project our feelings onto women. A third big truth is societal/social/political/etc reinforcement of individual fallacies and biases, working against the individual for some necessarily larger but not necessarily better cause. That third truth is what the blue/red pill is all about, the Matrix movie reference.

    The hardest part for men to swallow is the alpha/beta distinction, especially if they are beta, but once they get past that then it gets easier for red pill men. Since it’s really all just primate behavior, at various levels, men can be objective, even if it hurts their feelings. The hardest part for women is acknowledging their own hypergamy, i.e. that they would in reality have assortatively matched more closely to an objectively worse male than they thought. One of the cognitive biases resulting from hypergamy is the apex fallacy. A consequence is that women literally believe 80% of men are below average, and women literally believe that an average woman deserves an exceptional man. Once women grasp hypergamy, it gets worse for women. For one thing, the red pill doesn’t stick with women, and it has to be repeated over and over. You will find yourself denying hypergamy, and at times denying alpha/beta stuff, which will be the sign the red pill needs another booster. Remember, the genders are not symmetrical.

    The reason it gets worse for red pill women is because of the socio-biological “subconscious/biological/ancient level” reinforcement of the blue pill, which is called the feminine imperative. Rollo’s site called Rational Male is probably the best place to start to ponder red-pill awareness of the feminine imperative. If your mind isn’t blown then you will need to push the detonator harder.

  155. 155
    Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    #153 @Bloom: Perfect example jf12, what you describe as far as “the vast majority of men would be pleased with any one of a majority of women” is something I have probably never heard said aloud before! Women are constantly told the opposite “Men don’t want to commit.”

    Rephrase “Men don’t want to commit” as “Men women want don’t want to commit,” and you’ve got it.

  156. 156
    jf12 says:

    #155 for me the hardest part of unplugging was getting rid of my oneitis infatuation. Like, I believe, the majority of men, i.e. betas, I fall in love far too hard. It’s not so much that I *want* to commit, but that I *must* commit. The (necessarily, which we could discuss) beta male drive to commit to a woman is, I believe, at least as powerful as a mother’s drive towards a child.

  157. 157
    Farm Boy says:

    So perhaps, as has been said many times, men want a good girl w a bad side

    Who said that?

  158. 158
    Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    #156 Fortunately (depending on perspective, I guess) my one and only was an utterly contemptible skank. Even so, I stayed in the relationship far longer than I should have (and have the scars to prove it). But I did… eventually… dump her. Lots of angst and bad poetry followed, but when the next girl’s misdeeds came to light, I dropped her immediately. Not to say it wasn’t an emotional tar pit that sucked up too much emotional energy, but I acted without hesitating the second time.

    I have the dubious fortune of being able to fake alpha (though I wouldn’t have been able to tell you what an alpha was, or why it worked), and learned after a few attempts that I just didn’t have it in me to enjoy STRs or sustain the act over time. After that, I ghosted for a decade and then got married once the women in my cohort were past the baby rabies. Then I stumbled across the red pill sites while trying to keep the marriage together.

    My relationship/courting experiences were dumber than a football bat, but I definitely learned a lot, and it helped me recognize the red pill stuff as being accurate when I ran across it.

  159. 159
    jf12 says:

    #158 I can’t fake nothing. I’m an obvious nerd, one of the designated losers in love, but I believed all the lies about impressing women with intelligence and humor and laboratory skillz (literally, when we learned about Diels-Alder reactions in second-year Organic Chem, the lab instructor laughed, sadly, that now we can impress our girlfriends about our selection of dienophiles. As if we had any girlfriends.) A couple of years ago at age 62, trying and failing to convince myself to pretend to start an affair or something to awaken the theoretically merely dormant libido of my decade-post-menopausal wife, I came across red pill sites and suffered a lot of confirmation of my own observations before falling out of love a year ago and therefore converting to red pill. My ceasing to care about her libido, naturally, is what worked, to an extent, doubling our sex, but, naturally, I don’t really care.

  160. 160
    Farm Boy says:

    Rephrase “Men don’t want to commit” as “Men women want don’t want to commit,” and you’ve got it.

    Cosmo built an empire on this fact.

  161. 161
    sfcton says:

    Y’all make the simple complex.

    Don’t wait on the law, society or some corporate entity to make your life better. Act on your own behalf. Ignore the law, society etc ans act in your own best interest as you see them

    Want to kill your sperm count? Get on testosterone. Use the E version. One shot a week, find the dosage to rescue sperm count on th interwebz. There is at least one guy in every gym in america selling it (well maybe not planet fitness)

    Want to kill your sex drive? Get on decca. Hit up the same dude in the same gym.

    That’s not even the more vulgar answers.

  162. 162
    Farm Boy says:

    STRICTLY because the women are too picky, and too believing that there is a more perfect match out there for her.

    That is only part of it. Modern women have the “what can I get out of it” attitude exclusively. Nothing about what might be best for children or husband. It wasn’t always this way.

  163. 163
    Farm Boy says:

    Another thing that makes me sad is that MGTOW is a reasonable life path in this sick culture.

    This should be really embarrassing for women. That they have messed things up so badly that the strong drive that men naturally have is effectively neutered.

  164. 164
    Han Solo says:

    @Bloom 153

    Men don’t want to commit to women they don’t find attractive, nice, or whatever enough. This concept dovetails quite nicely with the idea of hypergamy and the apex fallacy. If women are going for men that are, roughly speaking, “out of their league,” then of course these men will usually not want to commit and will only do so once in a while. The apex fallacy enters because many women judge all men based on the behavior of top men or at least men that are at a higher percentile ranking than the women themselves. You can see hypergamy as the central element of much of romance literature for women, where the woman gets a man who’s out of her league to fall for her.

    However, in real life, most men do want to commit to women that are attractive, nice, fun, etc. enough. I would say there are far more men who would commit to most women than vice versa.

    Of course, there is a (probably growing) portion of men that prefer to only have casual or short-term sex, either because they want to spend a few years as a player while young (most won’t be very successful at that) or because they don’t see enough quality women to merit commitment and the necessary effort (due to feminism, misandrism, go-girlism, entitlement, etc.).

  165. 165
    Han Solo says:

    @jf12 154

    +1 Excellent description.

    Another thought about the hardest part of the red pill for women is this:

    A woman can usually get attention and sex from much hotter, richer, smarter, more charismatic, etc. men than she can get to commit to her.

    This can spoil many women into thinking their marriage value is as high as their sexual value.

    Of course, the sphere focuses on the highly-hypergamous portion of women and often mistakes them for all women, in an analyzing the elephant’s rear kind of way. However, IMO and IME, there are also many “realistic” women who do sooner or later happily settle down with men that are in their league. What percentage of each exist is hard to say but we know that half of women marry by 27 and another 35% by about 42. About 40% of all first marriages end in divorce.

  166. 166
    Bloom says:

    @157 I believe Jerry Hall (Mick Jagger’s ex) said so of the Men want a good girl w a bad side (or a good girl who’s only bad for them) As for men saying women want a bad boy w a good side (or a bad boy who is good to her) I will have to look it up, but perhaps Eddie Murphy?

    Of course that’s a woman saying what men want and a man saying what women want, which as jf12 points out, is fraught w all sorts of potential fallacy, the whole cruel Mars/Venus thing. Maddening!

    And yes all this does and did blow my mind when stumbling upon rrv and then hus and then j4g as I was trying to delve into and understand the whole dance better. Eye opening for sure.

    I have a long way (if ever) to go in understanding all this but I have already gleaned many important things, have seen cultural myths/norms implode, and gained greater awareness into the male/female dynamic. Sometimes to the point of thinking the whole shebang is just doomed except then I remember the couples I know who have successfully navigated these waters and found lasting happiness. It’s tragically too often the exception to the rule.

    And now that I see it, I see it everywhere!

    Case in point: Just yesterday a friend was telling me she’s thinking of leaving her marriage and then describing reasons which are not big things (not abuse, infidelity, etc) but pretty much hypergamy restlessness. At 36 with four kids, that greener looking grass may seem tempting to her but using ideas and insight gained here I was able to point out the reality of what her post-divorce world would likely really look like and by golly it seemed to give her some pause. She envies my single status and “freedom” (ha!) but her cozy nest and her hardworking provider don’t look so bad from here! Much of what her husband is saying to her is right what I see men here saying. All he wants is some respect and loving from his woman. So based on my newfound red pill knowledge, I advised her to ratchet up the (now nonexistent) action is the bedroom, start getting it on again, explore her sexual peak thats now risings and causing the angst, and see if that helps! I hope she gives it a whirl instead of imploding her family. Maybe I should send her hubby the link to the red pill, too!

    Too bad more people don’t have this info. Even if they don’t completely agree. I know I wish I had been exposed to it before I ever started dating and relating, I would do it all again a lot differently, could have avoided lots of mistakes made by “doing the right thing” in society’s advice.

    Thanks to all for listening to my cries Into the red pill wilderness, btw! Much appreciated. I may not get it but I am getting it!

  167. 167
    Farm Boy says:

    I believe Jerry Hall (Mick Jagger’s ex) said so of the Men want a good girl w a bad side

    Mick Jagger can afford that. The average guy, not so much.

  168. 168

    #163

    MGTOW has been a reasonable life path everywhere and everytime.

  169. 169
    Liz says:

    Bloom: “At 36 with four kids, that greener looking grass may seem tempting to her but using ideas and insight gained here I was able to point out the reality of what her post-divorce world would likely really look like and by golly it seemed to give her some pause.”

    Splitting up her family for no good reason when she has four children to think about doesn’t give her pause but pointing out red pill divorce world she’d be facing gave her pause? I wish this were harder to believe. If this is motherhood, we’re all fucked.

  170. 170
    jf12 says:

    #166 re: “long way to go”. Having an open mind makes you halfway there already. There are indeed a lot of pieces to the puzzle, but they all fit in a certain way constrained by reality. I’ve only been making comments 3 months btw. What’s rrv?

  171. 171
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    You did good with your friend. She wouldn’t consider divorce if she knew that it would be next to impossible to find another. She is much better off staying put. Then there is what would happen to her husband if she dropped this on him. He’d be reduced to sleeping in his car and tempted to do himself in.
    You might send him a link to Married Man Sex Life.

  172. 172
    Farm Boy says:

    If this is motherhood, we’re all fucked.

    I mentioned this yesterday, but as I was going through my 20’s, I looked at my age cohort women and could not imagine them a the mother of my children. They were selfish, undisciplined airheads mostly. Yet, nobody points out the impact of this on mothering skills.

  173. 173
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Farm Boy,
    That horrific (whoriffic?) post that you linked to last night in this thread was picked up by Captain Capitalism.
    I don’t like it when he says “Boys stay frosty, stay the freak frosty!”

  174. 174
    Farm Boy says:

    Fuzzie,
    Oddly enough, even though it states that it is satire at the end, nobody believes it.

  175. 175
    Liz says:

    #172: I think the difference is…society didn’t permit women to stay selfish, undisciplined airheads after motherhood (in the past).

    The old paradigm: “You’re a mom now. Grow up.” has been replaced with new paradigm, “you will always have all the choices in the world, girlfrenz!” and “it’s your life! the kids will ajust to whatevs…”

    I just don’t think the young girls of Christmases past were less airheaded or less superficial…surely they must have been. It just wasn’t tolerated after they wed and especially after they became mothers. And women knew it. They also knew their time for games was very limited and they had to make the most of it. Babysitters are expensive too. What do they do with their kids? Leave them at home with a salt lick and a bowl of water? Maybe they just bring these strange men to the house. Gah. Mind boggling.

  176. 176

    Bloom, I admire your comportment and the gracious way that you deal with what many women would no doubt find to be a roughhouse boys’ clubhouse-type environment.

  177. 177

    Liz, very cool avatar.

  178. 178
    Liz says:

    Thanks!

    Me, heavily photoshopped for continued anonymity. :P

  179. 179
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Farm Boy,
    Hopefully, it is the manifesto of a soon to be discredited lifestyle. Things have gone far enough and it’s not funny anymore.

  180. 180
    Farm Boy says:

    I just don’t think the young girls of Christmases past were less airheaded or less superficial…

    Perhaps. Think Gracie Allen vs. Miley Cyrus (or Britney Spears or Linsey Lohan)

  181. 181
    jf12 says:

    #179 “it’s not funny anymore”. The funniest part is, I can tell, she’s pretending to imitate what she thinks are MEN’S exaggerations of how women like her are. But she winds up being too believable …

  182. 182
    Obsidian says:

    @Ms. Bloom 166:
    Thanks for yet another very insightful comment! Although J4G is indeed a Men’s Issues blog, Women are welcome to participate; perhaps one of the biggest and best things you ladies can do, is listen very carefully. It appears you have done this in spades(!).

    :)

    In addition to Married Man Sex Life, I’d also suggest you passing along the following link to your married ladyfriend:

    http://www.justfourguys.com/special-report-an-evening-with-paul-carrick-brunson/

    Han also has up an EXCELLENT Anti-Game post for the hubbie:

    http://www.justfourguys.com/antigame-killing-your-chances/

    It’s VERY important for him to learn this before he starts to learn Game-proper. YES, Game DOES work within a marriage or LTR, and it is our and other Red Pills’ view that in our time, a Man without Game is in bad shape, LOL. It’s just that important.

    So, yea, please pass along those links to your friends; their marriage may very well depend on it!

    And thanks so much for the comments! By all means, keep em coming and spread the word about J4G!

    O.

  183. 183
    Obsidian says:

    @Ms. Bloom:
    Whoops, the first link was a mistake; here’s the correct one: http://www.justfourguys.com/instructions-to-the-ladies-so-as-to-not-suck-in-the-sack%e2%80%8f/

    And here’s another one to pass on to the wifey: http://www.justfourguys.com/why-women-fail-with-men/

    If she does these simple things, the chances of her marriage improving will be very good. Also, the hubbie has to do his part per the previous links I’ve posted. And MMSL is excellent, he owes it to himself to read up on the book Athol Kay put out (it’s on Amazon).

    O.

  184. 184

    jf12
    Long time ago, somebody said,

    Falling in love with love
    Is falling for make believe
    Falling in love with love
    Is playing the fool.

    Outside of the literal assertion, I’m not sure what the point was, given the context.
    That aside, it would make sense to try to discern the high of being in love from the high of being with a particular person. They may be difficult to separate, but they’re not the same.

  185. 185
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    It is encouraging that women like Bloom are going far afield looking for answers. It does go to show haw messed up things are and how hard good information is to find.

  186. 186
    Bloom says:

    Also, least I give the wrong impression — my friend is a good person, a good mom, wants to be a good wife and have a happy marriage/family. Ok I will even go here, I did not know her last time she accessed her smp value (pre marriage) but now she’s maybe a 5? Her husband is a 5 as well (not to be mean in either case, just setting the scene) so they are “a match” and actually well suited in many ways – happiness for both is a few small tweaks away. So rather than give the impression of her being a heartless wanton harpie, shes really more of a soccer mom who is as confused as anyone in the blue pill world and I think shes falling for the “if you’re not happy it’s a sign to move on” social message more than anything. Its not a solution. it wont lead to happiness.

    But theres nobody (besides I guess me) telling her this because most of her friends are also married and don’t get what life on the other side truly looks like. They just go-girl her toward her likely doom. I bet 30 days of online dating and the inescapable red pill reality check of that (not so fun or easy now is it?) would be an eye opener.

    Sorry to hijack your thread here, but why is nobody telling married women this? (Well except rrv and hus except both are mostly directed at much younger, never marrieds which is also a group that greatly needs this info, so not faulting them there, and both blogs would still be good assigned reading for gals in my friend’s place as a lot of the advice applies.) Perhaps I (or someone) should start such a blog aimed at married women like her in their 30s and 40s+ spelling out the alternate (and often very painful) reality of where jumping ship will likely lead (look out for the rocks, sharks, desert isles, and endlessly adrift wide Sargasso Sea!) Dating at 16-20some is a lot different than doing it as a divorced mom 30+. And even pre marriage, dating wasn’t that great, which is why they wanted to and happily got married in the first place, which they have just forgotten.

    As an upside, all social change comes in reaction to past well-meaning but failed social change, which was a reaction to the one before that. Maybe the current red pill thinking is that reaction to the last real such movement – the sexual revolution – started in part but not entirely by the invention of the pill? (see, all this rambling does wrap back to the original post! Kinda…lol) 40+ years later, maybe it’s time for something new, not patriarchy, not feminism, but something an evolutionary step beyond either? One can hope!

    (Ok, whew, I think my rant is done! If not I will have to start that blog…)

    As for men having more direct control over their reproductive destiny with a male version of the bc pill? All for it! Long overdue.

  187. 187
    Han Solo says:

    @Bloom

    1) Yes, the more women can get the reality out to others the better so starting a blog might be a very good idea. As I wrote about in these two posts, outside of top males, women have both more value and more influence over society because their voices are listened to more and because of the herd nature of women. If you can redirect the herd or form your own microherd then many women will follow (often having the courage to speak up, especially when you know it’s what others are thinking, can have a dramatic impact, though sometimes it will get you ostracized from the herd) and then the average men in their lives will often follow what their current or future wives/gf’s demand as the price for sex–if you think calling women herdlike is insulting then realize that I may be even more insulting to most men by calling them stragglers and followers of the female herd just hoping for sex. :)

    http://www.justfourguys.com/feminists-and-raunch-queens-are-the-dominant-alpha-mares/

    http://www.justfourguys.com/hierarchy-of-the-herd/

    2) good blogs to check out regarding red pill for women are:

    http://returnofqueens.com/ and this post I quite enjoyed because of it’s focus on the sphere:

    http://returnofqueens.com/what-the-manosphere-has-given-me/

    http://www.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/

    http://sunshinemaryandthedragon.wordpress.com (usually comes from a Christian focus but still very interesting regardless of your POV)

    http://womenformen.org/ (more of an equal/men’s rights site but with mostly women authors)

  188. 188
    Bloom says:

    @Jf 12 rrv = http://www.therulesrevisited.com it’s a blog clueing women into the male mind and my intro to all this. Excellent stuff.

    Thanks O. Honored to be included. I have learned a lot. I have always found the fringe to be where the truly interesting ideas lie, even if not yet palatable to the masses. (I.e. The earth isnt flat??? Pshaw, Thats crazy talk!) One risks heat for challanging the dominant social view, but without those brave souls who do it anyway no good change would ever emerge. I can sort the good (truth based) from the bad (fear based) and this is good, good much needed stuff! If it were all woman hate trash talk I would have just moved along… Most of all I have learned from j4m there is a much deeper and complex side to men than most see. Noble is a word that comes to mind. Not just numbskulls, simpletons, or cads (as many in society accuse and mainstream culture portrays.) It would do women well to explore that unseen side of men as well as for men to reveal and reclaim it. Thanks for the links, will pass them on for sure! Wo this site, both the posts and comments, I likely would not have understood what my friend was really saying, or felt the strong visceral empathy for her husband that I did, or understood her folly, or been able to articulate for her where that path might really lead. So again, thank you! You guys may have helped saved a marriage and family. Hope so!

  189. 189
    Farm Boy says:

    my friend is a good person, a good mom

    Well, I dunno. A good Mom would not even consider frivorcing.

    On second thought, she is not a good Mom.

  190. 190
    Bloom says:

    Farm boy, I get what you are saying but I think if you met her you might see, she’s not a bad person, mostly just confused. Struggling in ones marriage doesnt make someone a bad person/parent/partner does it? Seems like it happens to all couples at some point.

    She actually revealed, once she saw I supported it, that she wants nothing more than to have her marriage be all it could, but doesnt know how to fix it or even understand whats wrong. Her heart clearly yearns for that outcome. But wIth the current strife and disconnection (more of the nagging/harping on her end and dismissive/withdrawn on his, theres loss of love and respect but not verbal/emotional abuse or more serious issues) Shes wondering if that toxic home is worse for the kids than leaving? What I see, basically she’s trying to be alpha and (and resenting it) and he’s responding w more beta to pacify (and resenting it), nobodys getting or giving, and the spiral is on. Another couple I know, basically same thing.

    I encouraged her to think of the third path she wasn’t considering, working their stuff out, this time trying things they haven’t tried before, getting outside the rut. Like Go on regular dates (wo the kids), get a copy of the Karma Sutra or whatever appeals and try new things in bed, start a new hobby together, again minus the kids. (Family time is impt, dont get me wrong, but they have zero couple time) Reconnect — somehow. Even small and then add more and more. Seemingly to her doing the work was the more difficult path, at first glance, and shes tried and failed before, but when I outlined those fixes in a lighthearted way ,and then less lighthearted but not judging or shaming, what leaving would likely actually look like once the rubber meets the road, staying and trying to work it out suddenly looked more appealing to her. Maybe fun even, if approached from the side rather than head on. Sadly women get a lot more support in leaving (and sometimes it’s truly warranted and that support is needed) but often there’s not much support in staying, even when the problems are just kind of ordinary run of the mill stuff that can get sorted out. Hard to explain… I think for women it’s not an uncommon rut to move thru around year 7-10 but too many let go instead of riding it out bc of bad advice from others and society. We live in such a “next” based culture in many ways.

    How do I know/understand all this? Married young, been there, done that, have the divorce papers to prove it. My story was different, our stuff was a lot more serious than I see in her case, and too much to go into here. Yet in retrospect I can see now where had either I or he or ideally both of us done different, especially early on before it got really bad, it may have turned out otherwise…or maybe not…but I wish I had understood some of this stuff and had that info then. Sometimes I cringe when reading this stuff, seeing now what I missed then. I think red pill knowledge could help a lot of couples in the considering divorce boat, men and women both. And if they had this info going in, could avoid a lot of these troubles in the first place.

    (Sorry hijacking the thread again!)

  191. 191
    Bloom says:

    @ Hans, thanks for the links, looks like I have some reading to do! So far have read the ones you did on the herd, interesting indeed. As an aside, some really dynamic and cadent wording in it too, if I may add from a stylistic pov. It literally read like a stampede of thundering hooves. Bravo! I will seriously consider the blog idea as well. Not sure I have the answers but I certainly do have a lot of questions and I really do think many could benifit even from pondering the questioning of the current social norms and if they are really working as advertised. I am an as you describe first wave feminist, all for the original intent. But I clearly remember the moment in women’s studies class in college where the professor asserted all men, ALL men, physically abuse their partners and that even consentual intercourse was rape, ALL intercourse, and thinking, “Huh? Wait a minute here….” And oh boy, she did NOT like me calling the bs flag on it either! But really??? I just can’t relate to that extremist line of thinking. And I have also long believed that while feminism has lead to many advances for women, there have been some obvious downsides to it too, and ignoring discussing that pink elephant in the room has gone on far too long imo. Thanks for the encouragement.

  192. 192
    jf12 says:

    #190 good observational skills. “What I see, basically she’s trying to be alpha and (and resenting it) and he’s responding w more beta to pacify (and resenting it)” this is precisely the problem, almost all the time. Men being nice doesn’t “work”; women being nice DOES “work”.

  193. 193
    Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    #186 @Bloom: …why is nobody telling married women this?

    For the same reason that there are no good men. Women won’t see who they don’t want to see, and they won’t hear what they don’t want to hear. It’s not all women or just women that do this, of course, but they seem more prone to it, and to a much greater degree.

  194. 194
    Liz says:

    Bloom: “Struggling in ones marriage doesnt make someone a bad person/parent/partner does it? Seems like it happens to all couples at some point.”

    No, struggling with one’s marriage doesn’t make someone a bad person or parent, but showing a greater level of concern for one’s post-divorce SMV/dating options than for the impact of divorce on one’s children does make one a bad parent and not a very good person either. 99.9999999 percent of her concern should be about the inpact on her kids, not her future dating prospects. Why isn’t anyone telling women this? It’s the age of “empowerment”, and unlimited life choices, and throw it away instead of fixing it. Magazines sell drama too. Every time I see the cover of whatever rag of choice in the checkout line speaking about this or that “brave” (no word has ever been so diluted in the English language as brave and/or courageous, not even ‘tolerance’ or ‘obscenity’, or ‘sexist’…brave has it hands down) newly divorced or thinking-about-divorce famous mom who is tired of “that awful man’s betrayal!” I want to vomit. I swear Tori Spelling must have begged her husband to cheat….”Please! I need the press coverage!” Ditto Kardishians, et al.

    I’d advise your friend to frequent MMSL too…but I’d say it’s more important for her husband to read it than her. I’d give her the following advice. It’s simple (I’m a keep it simple type, and it works for me).

    People are the products of habits and associations. If she henpecks constantly, he will associate her with henpecking and get a bad feeling every time she opens her mouth or enters the room…eventually, he will get a bad feeling whenever he thinks about her with enough negative associations. On the flip side, everything she does that is beneficial and produces good feelings will strengthen the bond and lead to a positive association with her. Obviously sex is a big one. It doesn’t have to be something out of Cosmo’s greatest sex tips…lots of fellatio, lots of enthusiasm for him on a regular basis goes much much further than a few tricks that one special time. He wants to be wanted. Doesn’t everyone? And over time, if she’s diligent, their lives will improve in this manner and she will have those positive associations with him…because he will reciprocate. Men usually do that when women are nice to them, and I’m assuming he’s normal since you’ve indicated as much.

  195. 195
    Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    #194 @Liz: And over time, if she’s diligent, their lives will improve in this manner and she will have those positive associations with him…because he will reciprocate.

    This is where he is likely to screw up if he doesn’t start learning red pill stuff. A blue pill man wanting to make his wife happy will destroy both her desire and respect for him, along with her long term happiness. Unfortunately, that’s how we’ve been trained.

  196. 196
    Liz says:

    #195: That’s true.
    That’s why I think it’s more important that he read MMSL than her.

    I’m also assuming that if they’re married with four kids they had to have some connection at some time that they can still tap into.

  197. 197
    jf12 says:

    #194 re: “He wants to be wanted. Doesn’t everyone?” Yes but no. If women wanted to be wanted by their own men then they’d be nicer to them.

  198. 198
    Bloom says:

    Quick update, I saw my friend yesterday, she brought up her marriage again, so I casually said I had been reading this interesting stuff online about how men think vs women and she says, “really? Can you send me the link? Maybe it will help me understand Dan.” I said I thought it would. One red pill coming up! ;)

  199. 199
    Farm Boy says:

    #198

    This should be fun. Though perhaps too strong of a dose.

  200. 200
    Han Solo says:

    Bloom, it will be interesting to see her response. I suppose it might depend on which link(s) you gave her and the dosage, and how many spoonfuls of sugar are there to help the medicine go down. :)

  201. 201
    FuzzieWuzzie says:

    Bloom,
    That’s good news! I hope that she can keep it together.

  202. 202
    Bloom says:

    I was planning to share the links obsodian suggested. I warned her it may be a bit shocking because a lot of it was the opposite of pretty much everything women are told about men, but to think of it like if women speak French and men speak German, he hasn’t understood you speaking in French all this time, why not try learning some German? And I gave her a basic overview of the concepts, she seemed really keen to read more, reminded me on her way out to please send those links. What she has been trying isn’t working, I know she wants things to work but can’t see how, I think she might be ready…

    When I ponder the projection theory it makes sense how their dynamic has gone wrong – maybe she’s being alpha bc she wishes that’s what he’d do and he’s being beta because he wishes that’s what she’d do? I floated the idea and she was nodding in agreement like crazy so I think it struck a cord.

    I think a lot of these red pill concepts aren’t as outrageous to women as men might think, you might be surprised! The blue pill isn’t working out for (most) women all that great either. You just have to explain it in French ;) And therein lies the rub. Or find a bilingual translator!

    (By the way I type most of this in a hurry on my cell phone, please excuse the typos and other grammatical errors.)

  203. 203
    Han Solo says:

    Bloom, good luck with your friend and let us know how it goes.

  204. 204
    Overtaxed says:

    Male birth control has been available for 50+ years, it’s just the knowledge that has been pushed underground, not the technology. Testosterone, much like estrogen in women (“the Pill”) has a contraceptive effect, that, for most men, will be far more effective than condoms.

    The “male pill” (shot, in this case) is a PITA to get (see post below for info) but, if you’re willing to do it, it’s very effective and has a lot of positive side effects. It is not available for this use for several reasons, politics, sports, steroids are bad… All of that matters not to a man who really is concerned with controlling his fertility.

    The big problem with a “male pill” of any kind is that, using any kind of reasonable forward projection, the world would collapse in a few decades if something like this was generally available. Something like 60% of births in the US are unplanned today. Of those that are “planned” at least 1/2 are the wife battering the husband into submission to have a child. So, you have at least 70-80% of the births today that might not happen with the development of a male pill. Even if you take 1/2 that number as a reasonable estimate (40% of births today not happening), our society would collapse.

    http://www.returnofkings.com/42046/how-to-use-and-obtain-testosterone-for-male-birth-control

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