Are women having sex with out-of-their-league men that they can’t get to commit? A recent study shows that on average they are*. In today’s rich and safe environment women can afford to be picky (hypergamous) in who they have sex or a relationship with with but it’s an idea that many women disagree with, often claiming that men are just as picky. However, we will see that the hottest men get the most sex partners and many of them are coming from the female ranks of the less hot–in other words, many women are being picky and fucking upwards and out of their league, at least when it comes to casual sex and attempting to get a relationship. (*NAWALT)
As we saw in the post on evolutionary incentives, whenever a woman doesn’t need a man to stick around she is then free to pursue men solely on how appealing they are to her. Instead of steady Eddy or even stable Abel, plain Jane can go for slick Nick or cute Newt. Will all women do so? No. But they are free to and, historically, there would be some evolutionary benefit if they did have children with a man of “better” genes in rich/safe environments where it didn’t matter if the man stuck around.
Now it’s nice to have a theory that makes sense but in the end we want to see if, when the rubber meets the road (or the penis penetrates the pussy), it holds water and passes the biggest test of all: matching reality. We will see that in terms of at least one variable that it does.
Women have complicated and multi-variable attraction mechanisms and different women will put different weights on some of the following traits: charisma, status, fame, wealth, looks, confidence, intelligence, humor, character, and more. Today we will look at looks. Looks are much more important in determining women’s sexual and marriage value than in men but it still holds utility for men to be good looking. However, a good looking man who is lacking in charisma and confidence will often quickly repel the women who were drawn in by the good looking morsel of bait they initially lusted after and wanted to devour.
In the study, Handsome Wants as Handsome Does: Physical Attractiveness and Gender Differences in Revealed Sexual Preferences, Elizabeth Aura McClintock takes data of well over 14,000 young adults (~21.5 years old on average) that have had their looks ranked and then shows the sexual behavior for each group.
Let’s get down to business. In Table 2, we can see that there is a rising trend in the average number of sexual partners as men’s looks increase while there is a slight decrease for women. How can that be? Well, the lesser women must be having sex with the better looking men. In other words, some of the women are acting hypergamously, in terms of looks. Here’s the relevant portion of Table 2:
Number of heterosexual sex partners for males and females:
Looks……..M……F..
very attr….9.92…5.14
attractive…7.23…5.59
average….6.97…5.69
unattr…….6.01…6.03
So the very attractive men have had sex with 10 women, on average, while the unattractive have had 6. The observant reader will notice that the female numbers are much lower than the male. The most likely answer is that women are lowering their number down though it’s possible some men are exaggerating their prowess with the N-ness. Elsewhere a study showed that women raised their N by about 30% when they went from being completely anonymous to believing they were attached to a lie detector while the men didn’t change much. Another similar study showed 18 y/o women shaved a partner off while 18 y/o men added one when not hooked up to the (fake) detector of lies. Interestingly enough in this study, the mean for all men was N=7.27 while for women was N=5.57. The men’s N is 30% higher. Hey, things that make you go hmmm. If you raised all the women’s N by 30% (a reasonable estimate of how much they’re under-reporting) then you still see that the more attractive men are filling their cupboards with less savory yet sufficiently bonerlicious morsels. Also, I should add that these numbers are only for those who have had sex and only about 75% of the unattractive men had has sex while it was in the mid to high 80’s for the average and higher men, further proof that the hotter males get more pussy.
So, we see that men slum it to rack up their N while women feel the glorious yet heart-breaking heights of hypergamy gained. It would be nice if there were a rating on the men’s charisma, status and confidence as well. I have no doubt that the good looking, confident, popular N would be higher than the simply good looking N. We have to remember that many of the homelier men of high N likely have a lot of confidence and game so this study shouldn’t be misinterpreted as saying that the highest-value men only have 10 partners on average by 21.5 years of age and the lowest-value still get 6. No! This part of the study is only looking at looks and we must remember that male sexual and relationship value is a much more complicated function of many variables.
Now let’s look at who’s more likely to have a fuck buddy or a relationship and who’s having sex in the first week. From Table 3, we find:
Here we see some fascinating things. The hotter men are more likely to be in sex-only relationships and to have had sex in the first week. They’re also slightly less likely to say they are dating exclusively. The hotter the woman, the less likely she is to have had 1st-week sex and claim she’s in an exclusive dating relationship. There’s a very slight trend of less sex-only relationships for women the hotter they are.
Where it get’s interesting is that twice as many very attractive men say they’re just fuck buddies than the very attractive women. So what’s going on? Are the men having less-attractive FBs? Very possible. Are the women thinking they’re in a romantic relationship when the guy thinks he’s only in it for sex? Very likely as well, since we see that, overall, 31% of men in relationships say it’s sex only while only 19% of women say that. Well, sorry sisters, when the man says it’s sex only and you say it’s love, guess who’s right? The man. Sorry, but that’s how it is. If women really want emotionally-rich LTRs then many of them need to stop deluding themselves that the guy is into them or can be won over. Yeah, it happens from time to time but it’s not a high-odds strategy. Stop going for the players or cads and start going for the stable Abels that will actually be excited about you as more than just a sex toy–that is, if you really want a man that will love you.
But just for fun let’s correct for the female delusion about what’s really going on (either due to wishful thinking or men lying to women) and multiply the female numbers by the necessary factor of 1.63 (derived from 31/19). We still see that the most attractive women would only be in sex-only relationships 29% of the time while those men are 36%. So we can see that even some of the hottest men are sex-only-ing it with less attractive women. Though not a huge number, it’s more proof that women are being hypergamous on average when it comes to looks. Technically, it only needs to be a portion of the women to affect the average numbers we’re seeing so it is true that NAWALT.
And when 54% of women say it’s exclusive dating but only 45% of men say that, who’s right? The women? Guess again. It’s the men. Looks like there are a good number of delusional women or lying men out there. Whatever the cause, there’s a whole lot of wishful thinking going on for some women.
For a look at other attraction traits, Heariste recently posted about a study that shows that dominance is what turns on women the most.
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2013/07/22/study-dominance-not-looks-predicts-mens-mating-success/
This study says looks aren’t predictive. However, it should be noted that the sample size was very small. Only 72 women and 63 men. So, when it comes to the looks factor, common sense, experience and this study (with it’s over 14,000 people) show that looks do matter.
I think if we combine the two studies and general game knowledge we can see that the dominant, charismatic, good-looking man will be the kind that really has the power to clean up with women, on average.
Advice for men? Improve your looks via style, exercise and body language. Of even greater importance, improve your inner game so that you are more naturally confident, charismatic and dominant.
Advice for women? Looks gives you more power to be in a relationship and get a more appealing man. Lose the pounds, work on your skin, hair and fashion, and smile more. Get rid of the off-putting aloof look and turn off the bitch shields. You’re not protecting the Death Star so turn off your deflector shields and get over yourself. Stop going for the men that are out of your league if you want a man to commit to you and not just sex you up.
Good stuff!
I’d love to see some comments from the detractors on this one. I’ve long argued that it is very difficult to have informed discussions on SMV/MMV topics because there is a lack of good scientific evidence on the subject.
What little we have can often be poked full of holes due to poor methodology or built in bias.
I’m also pleased to see more research appearing, as it means other people are taking notice of the problems and digging in.
Yep, many people (and often women) don’t like the notion of hypergamy. Even though this study is only limited to looks it shows that hypergamy does exist (well it does look at obesity and sex partners too but that’s basically looks related).
I think the main thing to glean from the study Heartiste looked at about dominance was that that also is a strong factor in what women want.
So if we put all these pieces together it does provide some confirmation of what many of us can intuitively or logically understand from evolutionarily incentives and what so many of us saw as we were growing up, of how the cute and popular boys got way more attention than the shy or the ugly.
Also, for those interested, in the study you can find the 1st and 3rd quartiles for number of sex partners. And they are penis-in-vagina numbers. No gay/lesbian sex partners counted.
“the cute and popular boys got way more attention than the shy or the ugly.”
On the surface that’s a no brainer. What I find more interesting is that by and large women simply can’t or won’t admit that they are attracted to specific traits.
What is the crime in admitting that as a woman you find some assholean behavior attractive?
I don’t think there are many men that would deny that how a woman looks is VERY important in how he sees her as a mate. So, why is it so damned hard for women to admit that a guy needs to be a bit of an asshole to create some attraction?
I’m not necessarily thrilled with the concept of hypergamy, but it isn’t some disease with no cure. If women would simply admit it exists and analyze it, they would be in a MUCH better position to use it in their favor instead of allowing it to lead them from one P&D to another.
It isn’t like I’m thrilled with the fact that at any moment a random women walking by might completely derail my train of thought with her hot ass. But, it is something I know about myself, and knowing it allows me to at least be prepared when it happens. If I didn’t know how my lizard brain would react, I could easily find myself in a tight spot. (and not necessarily a good one!)
Yes, women would be well served to better understand themselves and that sometimes they’re attracted to things that may not serve their best interests. Some women are attracted to powerful assholes because, historically and pre-historically, such men had to be quite good at surviving all the people they piss off (so a sign of good genes and present ability) and, if successful, they would often come to dominate the tribe, the village, or the kingdom and thus have a lot of resources that would be useful for the woman and her children.
This is pretty interesting! Nice to know that making an effort to look good is advantageous.
But what happens if you take it a step further? How do looks impact on choosing someone as marriage material?
Chris from the RRR posted this nifty article that talks about how men prefer pretty women over too sexy ones as a wife. The article is based on John Molloy’s research. He wrote a Why Men Marry Some Women And Not Others. Anyway, in one hand, the article reaffirms the message of the main study you spoke about – looks do matter. On the other hand, it defines a limit on how important looks are.
Article here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2063997/Too-sexy-laid-independent–Why-women-just-ARENT-wife-material.html
What do you guys think?
@Starlight
Welcome. We’ve had some conversations over at therulesrevisited.com so glad to see you stop by.
I would say that men want women that are at or above his looks threshold. So if a man’s threshold is a 5 then he wants a 5 or better. But the change in utility to him is much greater in a woman going from a 4 to a 5 than from a 5 to a 6. I also think a man’s threshold is somewhat dependent on how hot a woman he can get. Many men will adjust lower if they can’t get higher. Of course some unfortunate men have such “exalted” tastes in women that they themselves cannot attract and remain forever wanting. But I think most men’s threshold is reasonably in line with whom they can attract, even if takes a lot of effort.
Once a woman is beyond his minimum threshold (and that level will vary from man to man) then he will think a lot more about other qualities when it comes to marriage.
Men want to feel proud of their woman. And at very least, not ashamed. If she’s an 8, 9 or a 10 but is a well-known pornstar or has a terrible personality then many men would want to fuck her but would not want to marry her.
Basically, marriage value is composed of sexual value (mostly looks for women but also how good she is in bed) and then adds–or subtracts–points based on her personality, lifestyle, goals, intelligence, how she treats the man, etc.
So if a woman is really hot but comes across as a slut or has a well-known and infamous history then a man might very well get massive boners thinking about her but be very leary or outright repulsed at the thought of marrying her and taking her home to mom.
What are your thoughts?
Han Solo,
I’m curious about your thoughts regarding the effect that age difference has on league for women.
Let’s say a woman is an 8 or 9 in face & body, and in addition personality, lifestyle, goals, intelligence would all rate pretty highly, and she treats the man she is with very well. Add to this the man pursuing her is 10 years older. Does league/appeal calculation remain constant, or does her league ranking increase with the age difference? I ask because I consider a particular man X my equal in all the above ratings (i.e. I don’t see his age as a negative factor at all because everything about him is great by me, though I think he might), but am curious whether the 10 year age difference skews my league higher than X’s.
@Cate
I would think of it more in terms of absolute appeal, value or league. By this I mean that a woman will likely peak in her sexual value at somewhere between 18 and 25 and then plateau for a while and then start to decline somewhere in her late 20’s to early 30’s depending on how well she preserves herself. (Exceptions exist.)
For a man, unless he’s on of the really popular guys in high school and college, then his sexual value will be relatively low as a teen. He might get a local and temporary boost due to being in a high f:m ratio college. Anyways, as he hits his mid to late 20’s he’ll likely fill out more without getting too fat yet, making the scrawny guy more appealing. Also, in many cases by his late 20’s or early 30’s his career will be doing better so he’ll often have a bit more experience in the world and with women and so he’ll feel more confident.
Men’s sexual value starts to hit it’s peak in the late 20’s to mid 30’s and then if he keeps himself healthy and continues to improve his confidence, game and career he can keep it fairly high as he ages into his late 30’s and 40’s. Since women value looks less than men and value other things more like confidence, status and charisma, it is possible for the man to avoid much of a decline in sexual value in his late 30’s and 40’s, although his looks will nearly always take a hit and just the plain old age difference will start to make many younger women rule him out (for many reasons, some intrinsic to the woman’s own tastes and others due to “creep” shaming by older women that want the older guys for themselves).
If you want more insight then let me know what ages you’re talking about.
I would say that a 30 y/o man is going to have a harder time with a 20 y/o woman than a 40 y/o man will with a 30 y/o woman. Why? Usually the 20 y/o woman is at the highest value she’ll ever be (plus she has all the future years of beauty that the 30 y/o doesn’t). The 30 y/o man could certainly have high enough value for such a woman if she was open to it but most 20 y/o women aren’t (though exceptions do occur). In other countries where there’s not as much stigma against dating older men the 30 y/o man will do much better with the 20 y/o woman.
So I would say that in the US there is a strong detraction for age in the mind of many women so that can serve to lower the older man’s value. But there are many cases of older men doing well also. Movie stars, athletes, wealthy men and other high-value males are the classic examples. High charisma also allows a man to keep his sexual value high long after his looks start to fade.
For the 20 y/o woman and 30 y/o man I’d say there is a slight ding on his value for being 10 years older but for the 30 y/o woman and 40 y/o man the woman’s value is lower because her best looks years are behind her (unless she totally lost weight suddenly).
I guess that sexually the ~20 y/o woman has the highest sexual value of all women. That’s when she’s typically the most beautiful. In terms of marriage value a slightly older woman, say mid-20’s would have the highest value because she’d be done school or have time working and would be more mature and so forth but still not be over the hill looks wise.
So, unless you’re younger than 24, I don’t think that a guy 10 years older than you should feel lower in value.
But for most men their sexual value starts declining around 35 as they start to get fat and never developed much charisma or confidence to compensate for their declining looks.
Also, after about 30-35 the woman’s sexual value starts declining more rapidly and sooner than the man’s. So even though the man is declining in absolute sexual value (in most cases) after 35, he’s now staying ahead of the 35 y/o woman (in most cases) and he starts to have more options amongst the women his age and even 5 years younger than he did when he was 25 and the 22 y/o woman he might really like is at the peak of her absolute sexual value and higher than his (assuming they’re roughly the same percentile of both men and women, and excluding the apex alpha males at that age that just have tons of options–think a rock star or athlete).
Han Solo,
Thanks very much for the extensive reply. Based on my own experience & preferences, I don’t think league is an absolute value but relative to each person. Many people’s estimation of self’s & others’ leagues overlap, which is why they may seem calculated in the absolute, but I find myself ranking men differently (and being ranked differently) for certain characteristics so I think there is enough fuzziness to support relativity. Also in part because I don’t want a man in his 20s or 30s, so whatever their league calculation of me is irrelevant.
So I think my question will have to be interpreted relatively. I’m in my 40s, so yes, men in their 40s may be looking for women in their 30s. (And in fact, I’ve found a maturity gap with men my age, so I’m finding myself preferring men at least 5 years older than me.) But I’ve found that there are some men (e.g. those in their 50s) are in fact looking specifically for women in their 40s. Women in their 30s are still transitioning in career and maturity/emotional stability. Women in their 40s are more secure, emotionally stable, career stable, etc., and maybe, generally speaking, have a looks edge over women in their 50s. Among that set of women in their 40s, I think I would be considered at least a 9, given how I seem to turn heads (even from younger men) or how people react to me when I walk into a room. (I had the same effect in my 20s, though I downplayed myself because at the time it was difficult for me to handle the attention I was getting.). A man in his 50s is a little bit of a different beast than a man in his 40s. He may not want women in their 50s, yet may be sensitive to his own aging appearance & abilities. He’s preferring women in their 40s, but given, say, the competition for very good looking women in their 40s among men in their 50s, I’m wondering if in this specific playing field the woman has higher league value.
Also, on a separate note, I’d love to see an article on what you guys would say the characteristics are of an alpa male vs. a beta male. Among other things, one question I’ve always wondered is, do beta males never?/sometimes?/often? make the first move to ask women, or in the early stages of dating initiate phone or email contact.
Hi Guys! You have a new picture on your masthead! Nice!
My take on this: The National Study on Adolescent Health, from where the data of McClintock’s paper was based, only sampled American adolescents in American high schools.
Not representative of the world at large. Hence, not applicable to most of the world. And hence not applicable to most men and women.
If you dear, reader, is an American male/female who is currently living in the present-day USA, then this study applies to you. Otherwise, very interesting but inconsequential, in my opinion
“Advice for men? Improve your looks via style, exercise and body language. Of even greater importance, improve your inner game so that you are more naturally confident, charismatic and dominant.”
alternative advice – go someplace else where the culture does not overly emphasize style, exercise and body language. Make sure you have the funds to travel. Be open to new experiences.
“Advice for women? Looks gives you more power to be in a relationship and get a more appealing man. Lose the pounds, work on your skin, hair and fashion, and smile more. Get rid of the off-putting aloof look and turn off the bitch shields. You’re not protecting the Death Star so turn off your deflector shields and get over yourself. Stop going for the men that are out of your league if you want a man to commit to you and not just sex you up.”
alternative advice – men who like and love and accept us with all their heart and everything else are just as sexy as all the rest of them. A penis is a penis is a penis.
Get a job and get a life. Men are the icing on the cake. If all else fails, you can always be a lesbian 
@Cate
I think we were using the word ‘relative’ in different ways. You were meaning the value or league in a given person’s eyes, or relative to them. I was using it in comparing the value of one person relative to another.
Further insight into the “absolute value” is to realize that every person will have their own individual and possibly different “vote” about everyone else’s value. If you could hypothetically just hook up some device to every person’s brain and measure the attractiveness and value that was given to others then you could create a ranking system for all the people encountered by that person (and subject to change as they got to know them better as well). So this kind of value is “relative” to that person, or their personal ranking system.
That was not the way I was using the word ‘relative’ in my first comment to you. In that comment I was meaning the difference in absolute value between two people would give you the value of one relative to the other. So a female 6 at 20 might decline to a 5 by 35. A male 5 at 25 might have been interested in the female 6 at 20 but is 1 point lower than her at that stage. 15 years later, he might have somehow risen to be a 6 (say by becoming more successful and keeping in good shape) and she now a 5 so he’d have more value in comparison (or relative) to her. Just an example.
If you could then take everyone’s ranking of a given person then you would have some distribution of ratings of that person. For example, their average rating might be a 7 with some voting 8, some 6 and maybe an outlier of 5, all with a standard deviation of 1, meaning that there is some scatter around the average value and that person will be more attractive to one person than another. This average value could then be taken as the “absolute” value: the average of the whole distribution of all the individual votes. Perhaps phrasing it as their “commonly perceived value,” and taking into account the standard deviation around that value, would be a clearer way of thinking of it as opposed to using the word ‘absolute’.
But you do raise a good point that even though someone might rate a 7 on average that different people may see that person as higher or lower and so in the end you need to be of enough value to the person you’re interested in (and vice versa) and not necessarily in the general population’s eyes.
@Cate
If you’re a well-preserved and good-looking 40-something y/o then there will be many men in their 50’s and even some in their 40’s that would like a woman like you. Not to mention even older men in their 60’s.
A lot of men in their 50’s just can’t get women in their 30’s (though it happens) so the more youth- and beauty-focused men will have to go for the women they can get, namely older. But I can also imagine many men in their 50’s would prefer a more mature woman in her 40’s, that is better looking than a similar woman in her 50’s but more mature and with more similar interests than a woman in her 30’s–in many cases it could be just the right blend for what he’s looking for AND what he can get. Many men in their 50’s aren’t as horny any more and may start to give a little more weight to personality and so forth.
I think it’s possible you’re a 9 amongst women in their 40’s (though I’d have to see pictures to know for sure
) and I don’t think you’re saying you’d be rated a 9 when compared with women in their 20’s, though sometimes some women do hold onto the delusion that they can stay as hot as they always were into their 40’s.
Broadly speaking, alphas are a small percentage of men and are the ones who take charge of the social hierarchy due to their desire to lead and control. Historically, this was a more risky strategy since you could often die if you fail in your attempt.
Betas are more of the followers in the social hierarchy, and being a follower is a lower-risk strategy. Betas do approach women, call them and ask them out but will usually tend to not be as bold as the go-getter alphas.
I should point out that a direct comparison between male vs. female partner counts need not result in equality. If young men (in this sample) had sex with older cougars (out of this sample) then that would explain the discrepancy. Of course, the reality is likely to be the opposite, so the discrepancy in reported numbers is actually magnified.
@manangbok
Saying it only sampled adolescents is misleading. It started with younger people, yes, and then followed them over several years to track how they acted. The average age of the sample in question is roughly 21.5 y/o, as you can read in the paper.
So to say it sampled adolescents is misleading. In the part that asks about total sexual partners they were adults by then.
Also to say it’s not applicable to the rest of the world is just flat out wrong. There may be parts of the world where strict culture doesn’t allow women to go after the man of their choosing or even allow much of anyone to have multiple sexual partners but that doesn’t mean the underlying desires for better looks and other characteristics is not there. They are there, just kept under tighter wraps.
Also, young American adults are similar enough to those of many other countries for these results to give insight there. I’ve traveled extensively and lived in Latin America and traveled to Europe and in those places good looks were definitely valued by women, amongst other qualities as is the case in the US.
I have read that East Asian women value intelligence much more than American women so, yes, there are cultural and possibly racial differences in what different groups of people are attracted to on average. But that doesn’t mean that women don’t like good looks or that some of them wouldn’t be hypergamous if given the chance.
So your mentioning of differences amongst cultures is worth noting but your quick dismissal of these results doesn’t seem fair.
@Nemesis
That is a good point and there are many such caveats that I did think about but didn’t want to get into because I didn’t think they changed the overall message.
[…] Study Shows Women Fuck Hotter Men […]
Possible alternative hypothesis:
Looks do not help a woman if she is hypergamous. She will continue to fuck up, until she gets to the top and there are no more men higher than her.
A girl that uses her sex to lure in a man isn’t suffering from a lack of market power, she is suffering from a bad market strategy and needs to correct the market strategy.
Otherwise the boost in market value doesn’t help her. It’s like a poor guy that wins the lottery, he’s still going to go bankrupt because he has no idea what the FUCK to do with the money.
Now, if a girl is saying to herself “I really would like a 7,” then she is fine improving her market value, but if the girl psychologically speaking is saying “I want to find the best man I can!” then she’s screwed.
A man is also screwed if he is going after 9s or 10s all the time. However, improving his market value may help him as he finally connects with a girl that is actually reasonably attractive.
Guys need more Market Power, Girls need more Market Strategy.
@ADBG
I would think that looks would help a hypergamous woman because she’s be that much further ahead to start with in whom she can attract for an LTR and then by offering sex she can go even higher than what her assortative husband/mate would be. Of course, it’s hard for most hypergamous women to find men much higher in value than them for marriage. If there hypergamy is directed towards some property that isn’t equally valued by other women of her level then she would be more likely to get such a man for an LTR.
“A girl that uses her sex to lure in a man isn’t suffering from a lack of market power, she is suffering from a bad market strategy and needs to correct the market strategy.”
Can you clarify what you mean here? Strategy for what? If you mean to get a relationship and she’s only using sex, and especially to try and get a higher value man then I would completely agree–bad strategy, won’t usually work. OTOH, if she’s consciously or subconciously pursuing a short-term strategy to get the best genes she can (or the most appealing man to her which might not mean the best genes) then she is using a very good strategy…because it works.
I agree that women who pursue out of their league men are kind of gaining the lottery and spending it quickly in the sense that they have that “prize” man in their grasp for a night or even a few months but then he is gone (though not because she spent him, but rather because she’s not of high enough value to hold onto him).
“Guys need more Market Power, Girls need more Market Strategy.”
Agree about the guys. Also agree that girls need more market strategy if they want to find a long-term guy. If they just want short-term then the offer easy sex strategy really is the best one going for them.
Speaking of China, here was an interesting anecdote shared at alphagameplan about how the girls gave their food more to the popular boys and not the other boys. Meanwhile when given the better food the average boys gave away their food fairly quickly to the girls that didn’t give them shit before. Talk about hypergamy and provider betas! lol Not sure if looks are as important in China but I doubt they’re completely unimportant.
http://alphagameplan.blogspot.ca/2013/07/why-feminized-societies-will-fail.html
Interesting stuff. But something to consider is that the highly attractive women tend to be more finely attuned to, and affected by, social norms and standards about sex and dating. This is a factor that may drag down their reported partner counts, without necessarily affecting those of the less attractive women.
In other words, it’s not enough to just talk about “women” in general underreporting, because women of different levels of attractiveness may think in different ways.
If we accept that women have physical urges just as men do, and hotter women have more options in that respect, then it is entirely reasonable to think that hotter women may have more partners than uglier women.
I looked at the study, and I’m not quite sure how “attractiveness” is measured. Did they look at just the face of the person when they ranked them, or the whole body? And were the people dressed in their normal clothes? Did they have their unique hairstyle, makeup and/or facial hair? Or did they isolate the person’s face from the hair? Because all of these things can affect one’s “physical attractiveness,” even though the latter is typically considered to be an “inherent” quality.
This brings up another potential problem: a woman who is “hot” today may not have been hot last year. So if she has been working out and buying better makeup over the last year, then her *lifetime* partner count is not necessarily representative of her current level of attractiveness (the same is true if her attractiveness has declined over time). And the same can be said of men.
@HanSolo
Thanks for the welcome, HanSolo!
I completely agree that men want to be proud of their woman and everything else you said. Man certainly want a relationship and marriage with someone above their league.
However, after reading all the other comments, there is a question / circumstance I cannot find the answer to. One that really baffles me. How is it that a guy who is a 7 will be in a serious relationship with an equal partner. Then quickly moves on to have a serious relationship with a 5 whom he outwardly claims is deeply in love with (or so it seems). I have seen it happen.
This defies the partnering / marrying up theory. What are your thoughts?
@ A Definite Beta Guy
I like how you used the terms Market Power and Market Value.
First I would like to disagree with you the older men being creepers was invented by older women.
As a young woman, you have no idea what it is like to get hit on and for some unfornate few, molested by older men ever since you got your period at 12. It does happens for young boys too, who had been molested by older men. These older men are usually in the 25+ range.
Moreover, it is creepy for an older man (40 years old) to want to sleeps with a girl young enough to be his daughter and the girl must either be desperate or naive to want to sleeps with her own father. Ten years is pushing it, but 15+ is more of caretaker role.
A healthy young 21 (legal enough to drink) year old woman would have no desires to sleep with someone old enough to be her father, unless if she has serious daddy issues or a gold digger. I can understand why a 40 would find a 21 year old attractive. A 21 year old has more options, when it comes men. She can still get a 25 year old, or any men under 35.
I would like to said that a 21 year that is with a 40 year is dating beneath her league. She is giving up her prime years for a man past his prime, and if she marries him, her life would shorten. If they get married and start having kids when she is 30, and he is 50, they have a higher chance of unhealthy children due to his mutated sperms. In 20 more years, she will be changing his diapers while still struggling at work.
Also a 21 year old that is dating a 40 is never the hottest girl, because if she were, she would have no problem getting a young men under 35 to date her. So the only winner here is the 40 year old guy.
So I would like to peacefully disagree with you that creepy older guy was invented by older jealous women, because many of these women where probably molested or used when they first got their period at 12.
A lot of young girls also finds older men unattractive. Fathers who loves their daughters would also tell them to stay away from older men. Even in Rules Revisited, Andrew tells teen girls 14 –21 to stay away from older men. Young men makes fun of the 21 year old, and young women avoids her because they are creep out.
As a man age, he becomes less attractive to young women unless if he can make up for it in wealth and prestige. Even then, he will never get his pick of the litter. I mean you never see Kate Upton dating Huge Hefner or James Wood?
@Int. Playboy
The looks were rated by an interviewer–not sure if by photo or in person. Not sure how many there were but with over 14,000 people there must have been quite a few interviewers so you probably get a wide enough range of tastes in the interviewers.
It’s true that looks can change over time so the ideal study would know their looks at each moment in time but such a granular and ideal study doesn’t exist. The transition of people within attractiveness categories will certainly happen and this will blur out the effect being sought but overall you probably have enough correlation of their looks over time with their rating that the overall message I’m drawing from the study holds.
As to which group of women under-reports more, we don’t know. We can come up with reasons why one might more than the other but for now it’s just speculation. I certainly believe that attractive women would want to under-report to themselves and an anonymous survey but I really don’t see why they would do so more than average or unattractive women. Since the attractive women are able to have sex more on their terms, whether they want casual or relationship sex it would stand to reason that they would be less ashamed of that internally and would be less likely to under-report when reporting confidentially/anonymously. I could imagine the average or unattractive women having been pumped and dumped more than the very attractive women and thus feel more shame and want to believe that some of their N really didn’t happen or don’t count.
So we can come up with plausible answers in either direction and we simply don’t know.
There is some evidence that men either report accurately or round up. I could imagine the low and no-N men feeling a bit ashamed and padding their number so that their true number would be less than seen here, which would likely steepen the slope and make it even more. High-N men (and good looking men are seen to have higher N) would have less motivation to round up to avoid the shame of low or no N.
Thanks for your thoughts and it certainly would be nice to have more detailed and granular studies. Maybe someday.
@Starlight
You’re welcome.
I’d agree that men would like to marry up…if they could. Some can. The more important issue isn’t the upper reaches of what people want–as Sam said on Game of Thrones, “I always wanted to be a wizard” but never became one. Though it was awesome when Gilly told him he was like a wizard because he could figure out all sorts of things by looking at marks on paper.
But I digress.
So we can want all sorts of things. The key issue, though, is what is the minimum level we’ll be happy with? And there I think most men (with some exceptions) are fairly happy with a woman of equal value but you have more women that are more picky (or hypergamous), especially in today’s society where they’re safe, free and wealthy enough to not need a man to survive and so they can subconsciously look to impregnate their valuable eggs with “better” sperm (even if consciously they use birth control and so forth).
As to the 7 man going from a 5 to a 7? Not sure, sounds like an outlier to me. Maybe the 7 was a bitch and the 5 treated him really well and perhaps 5 was his threshold. I once dated a 9 who bitched out on me so no matter how hot she was I wanted to get the fuck away. I then went out with a 7 and was seriously more happy with her because she was sweet and fun.
And remember, although 2/3 of people might agree to with a half point or point on someone’s value, there will be another 1/6 that rank that person higher and 1/6 lower (just an educated guess on the numbers). So maybe that 5 seems more like a 6 or 6.5 to him and that’s good enough for him.
@Starlight
Basically, don’t get too worked up about all these numbers. They’re useful as ways to convey the idea of dating in, out of or under your league and to give a rough idea of by how much but don’t worry too much. In the end the thing that matters is to compare the kind of men that show you attention (either for sex or relationships) with the kind you want and see if you’re getting what you want or if you need to up your own value or cut a few excessively-picky items off your list to include more men that would actually be excited to be with you.
@Lily
Notice that I didn’t say that the idea of older men being creepy was only invented by older women. This is what I said:
So I clearly said that there are reasons intrinsic to the woman herself of why she just doesn’t feel attracted to older men, or feels creeped out by his attention. Basically many women feel creeped out by excessive (or even any) interest being shown to them by any men they don’t find attractive, no matter what his age, though there’s likely a neutral zone for a lot of women where if the guy doesn’t push it too much she’ll be like thanks for the interest but no thanks and go on about her business. Watch the Tom Brady sexual harassment skit from SNL, though, to see a humorous example of how two different men are so differently perceived.
In addition to the woman feeling that an older man could be creepy, older women also do pile on to this and go around shaming older men and younger women to keep them apart and the men for themselves. This is one of many factors that could contribute. You mentioned some others, like the father not wanting her to be with an older guy or the younger guys (who want her too) shaming her.
You said, “Moreover, it is creepy for an older man (40 years old) to want to sleeps with a girl young enough to be his daughter and the girl must either be desperate or naive to want to sleeps with her own father.”
I strongly disagree that it’s creepy for an older man to want to sleep with a girl or woman that’s young enough to be his daughter but still an adult, say 20 years younger than him if he’s 40+. On the contrary it’s completely natural, even though it doesn’t happen often. So please don’t come on here shaming male sexuality. If the woman’s an adult and likes him and he likes her then they are free to get together.
What I tell women is if they like older men then go for them. If they don’t, don’t. That simple. Don’t let some old bat shame you out of it, though, if you like them.
And it’s not only women that are desperate or naive or with bad self esteem or daddy issues that might want to sleep with older men. Though a minority, some women simply like them and there’s nothing wrong with them. You’re creep shaming yourself right now by saying it’s only damaged or naive women that would ever want older men.
I also disagree that a 21 y/o woman is necessarily out of the 40 y/o man’s league. What about all the movie stars that date much younger women. Are those men below the younger women’s league? No. In fact, someone like Robert Downey Jr. or George Clooney is out of the league of 98% or so of all 21 y/o women. Now, an average 40 y/o man will not have the same sexual value as the average 21 y/o woman but let’s not make such absolute statements like you did.
@HanSolo
Numbers are definitely not the end all and be all, you’re right! As for the guy who went from a 7 to a 5 – it irks me because something similar happened to me and I never got to understand why he left. Understanding how someone can go from a higher end to a lower end of the spectrum would help me understand the qualities I need to work on.
(fyi – We are not in touch, but no hard feelings.)
@Starlight
At this point I don’t know enough about you, him or the other people you’ve mentioned. I think that getting some objective advice from blunt men you know that won’t try to flatter you (because they want to have sex with you or date you) would be good, to really get their opinion on how attractive you are in looks and personality. I’m not saying you are this way but some girls I know have an inflated view of how attractive they are and their girl friends always butter them up with flattering bullshit.
It’s also possible he’s not really a 7.
Or everything you say could be totally accurate and it’s just one of those things where for him the woman was attractive enough to him and it worked out.
I suppose I could bring in my observations of some of my friends and where some of the hottest females were so picky that they’re still single til this day and so their natural counterparts had to marry a 1/2 or full point below what you would expect because the women were and still are waiting for mr. perfect.
Anyway, not sure what more to say without more info. Best bet is to talk to blunt male friends and get their opinion.
@Starlight
I guess I should point out that we see in the study how there were a lot of women thinking they were in a relationship and not just sex when that wasn’t the case. We also see some of them doing it with more attractive men. So we do see that women are misperceiving what the man is thinking and their own value, thinking they’re hot enough to get the man to commit but apparently not.
It’s one of the biggest things I see that women are screwing up, not realizing that they can get sex from higher-value men than they can get to commit. And they misinterpret their higher sexual value with equally high marriage value. But that’s just not the case. Again, not saying this is you but it’s something worth thinking about.
@Starlight
I’ve had sex with a good number of women. About 1/2 were anywhere from 0.5 points less than me to 1 point higher. And about 1/2 were 1-2 points lower and I slummed it a couple of times 3 points lower. Virtually all of the women in the lower half (1 or more points lower) wanted to be my gf. They were going for someone out of their league. But they never thought they were going out of their league. They really thought they could get me. Inside I thought, “are you fucking kidding me?” I got to the point where I was much more open and just told them before sex that I wasn’t interested in a relationship with them and we could have sex or not. Some choose not to while others wanted to anyway. Now, lest you think I’m delusional about my own value, remember that I said there was the upper half that ranged from 0.5 below to 1 pt above what I perceive my value to be, and I dated or LTR’d some of them and some of them wanted to but I didn’t and vice versa.
So I’ve seen that with my own eyes. Another guy at HUS that has N of about 50 confirmed the exact same things as I have experienced so when I see stuff like that in my own life and other guys’ and then you get a study like this it just all fits together that too many women are sincerely believing they’re 8’s when they’re really 7’s, or even worse in some cases.
Anyway, I’m not saying you’re not a 7. I have no idea. Just beware that it’s easy for some women to mistake the sexual attention they can get from higher-value men and think they can get those same kind of men to be their boyfriends.
And I have no idea if what I just said applies to you and the guy or the other case you mentioned. Just wanted to share all that. Cheers!
Han,
No major disagreements. To expand on my point of girls needing a new market strategy, it’s basically what you said, a girl who is going for out of her league guys. My IMPRESSION, although my impression might be wrong, is that girls who persistently do this, will continue to do this, regardless of her SMV, until her SMV is so high that there are no higher value men to pursue.
So if her psychological problems are “stupid boys can’t commit!” well, she might be pursuing a value-maximizing sub-conscious strategy, but it will not consciously work for her.
My gut impression is about 1/6 of the female population is like this, and my gut impression is that the majority of these girls, probably vast majority, are just straight-up hypergamous that want high-value guys and think they can get them (mistaking their own SMV), and use sex to keep the guy interested.
I guess it comes down to “why do girls hook up?” and “what would they be better served by?” My thought is that women in this environment for the most part do want relationships and are inclined to take great efforts to lure in high-value men, and that’s where they focus their energy. NAWALT, but if 10% of attractive women are regularly hooking up, I consider that the “background noise,” and if 25% of the unattractive women are regularly hooking up, I consider most of the increase due to girls that WANT relationships and are trying for out of their league guys.
Over time I think these girls have “sticky” strategies, IE, even if they get higher SMV, they will keep doing what feels good.
Doesn’t this jive with your experience, too? A lot of those less attractive girls who slept with you wanted a relationship from you?
“Just beware that it’s easy for some women to mistake the sexual attention they can get from higher-value men and think they can get those same kind of men to be their boyfriends.”
This is EXACTLY the kind of information I personally believe women should be sharing with each other. I imagine in the past it is this type of info that mothers and grandmothers would pass on to younger women. Our modern age of entitlement goes against anyone trying to impart reasonable expectations though. (we all deserve everything we want! I mean, I got a trophy for just showing up in high school!!!) so my guess is this message got lost somewhere along the way to “you go girl!”
So ladies, read the quoted text at the top again. Maybe one more time… Got it? a man can and will sex you up even if he doesn’t consider you hot enough to date. Hell, for all you know he struck out three times before you, and not ONLY are you not hot enough for him to date, you may be his last ditch effort at getting laid that night.
How special does that make you feel?
@ADBG
“girls who persistently do this, will continue to do this, regardless of her SMV, until her SMV is so high that there are no higher value men to pursue.”
If you mean that such a girl will try to find the upper value limit of men who will have sex with her then I agree. The way you worded it, though, makes it sound like any girl can get a male 10 to have sex with her no matter her own SMV. But I don’t think that matches reality. I think that lower to average women can consistently go as high as 3 points higher by offering up easy sex (4 with a 7, 5 with an 8) but going 4 points higher will be harder because such men will have better looking options. However, if the higher man is on a long dry spell he could slum it. And then I guess there just are some men that really will fuck any woman that will put out…but male 9’s and 10’s will likely have more attractive women to choose from so I don’t think the female 4’s and below can think of even getting sex with such men (except for some few exceptions).
I suppose that the highly hypergamous that offer sex to hotter guys really is simply a get-the-better-genes, short-term strategy, regardless of whether the woman wants the guy to stick around–well, most of them do want the guy to stick around but then we all have unrealistic stuff we want and can’t have. When I was little I wanted to have the Dairy Queen landscape of ice cream mountains and hot fudge rivers and just pig out on it. lol And Sam from GoT wanted to be a wizard.
Excessive hypergamy is a short-term strategy, and if a woman is hypergamous and is able to get a high-value male to commit then she wasn’t so low value herself, at least to him, since our S/M value is determined by whom we can get (sexual value for sex and marriage value for marriage).
“NAWALT, but if 10% of attractive women are regularly hooking up, I consider that the “background noise,” and if 25% of the unattractive women are regularly hooking up, I consider most of the increase due to girls that WANT relationships and are trying for out of their league guys.”
I agree that most women who hookup would like a relationship with the man (except for maybe 10% that enjoy casual, some forever and others at least for the time being while they’re doing other “more important” things like school or career, and some who simply haven’t had sex in a long time and are feeling horny and lonely). Some girls who are single for a long time but don’t have high N will use a FWB or former bf to have sex with occasionally, every month or few months, when they’re feeling lonely or horny. I knew one N=3 girl who did that (not with me).
As to the more attractive half of my N, most of them wanted a relationship with me at the time of sex, or at least were doing so trying to get to know me better with the intention of it heading for a reln if we were compatible enough. I felt the same way towards most of them though there were a couple that I could tell that we weren’t compatible personality wise but I think I hamstered out a bit and told myself that I was wanting to see if it could lead to a reln even though deep down I knew we weren’t compatible and that I really just wanted sex with women that were quite attractive to me. But they were attractive and had some good qualities and in one case treated me quite well but there just wasn’t that conversational connection (important to me) so I felt like there wasn’t the emotional connection that I want for a relationship.
And some of the more attractive half of my N dumped me or stopped wanting to see me. I think my first N wanted it to be a kind of a glorified FWB/dating relationship to test drive to see if we’d become a more serious couple down the road. She dumped me.
And I dumped some of the ones in my higher 1/2 as well. In hindsight, I think I should have given some of them more of a chance to see if the emotional and conversational connection could develop more.
@Ted D
“Just beware that it’s easy for some women to mistake the sexual attention they can get from higher-value men and think they can get those same kind of men to be their boyfriends.”
That may be the most important piece of red pill truth for women to understand.
@HanSolo
The 5 and 7 were just random numbers to prove a point. I have never really thought of myself as a number – so I would not know where I am situated. He could be a 7 as he is good looking, takes good care of himself, intelligent, hard working, independent, financially stable (he earns a nice amount of money, which is above average) I will not talk about specific details in order to conceal his identity.
Assuming I am of equal or higher value (I haven’t assessed myself yet) than him, how would that make a difference? I thought men partnered up and not down.
Your other comments made me think. The reason of it not working out may simply been incompatibility as you stated on another comment about something else.
“I could tell that we weren’t compatible personality wise but I think I hamstered out a bit and told myself that I was wanting to see if it could lead to a reln even though deep down I knew we weren’t compatible and that I really just wanted sex with women that were quite attractive to me. But they were attractive and had some good qualities and in one case treated me quite well but there just wasn’t that conversational connection (important to me) so I felt like there wasn’t the emotional connection that I want for a relationship.”
But how long does it take to find out whether you are compatible or not? I tend to screen candidates fairly quickly. For me, lifestyles have to mesh (at least in the important bits). Otherwise it’s never going to work out. If someone is a homebody who dislikes nature with a passion and doesn’t like going out and the partner is a socialite who loves the outdoors, how will this work? It’s obviously another thing if one loves boating and the other one doesn’t. Having different hobbies is fine, even preferable IMO.
I understand your points about girls overestimating themselves too much. Maybe it’s reality tv shows giving them bad info? Some of them think it’s sexy to behave and dress a certain way, when it isn’t. I wish someone would tell these ladies, if it doesn’t suit your body type trash the clothing piece. Short skirts can be sexy, but make sure it suits you otherwise it looks slutty. A girl wearing high heals look sexy; but if you can’t walk in them, you don’t. So please practice beforehand. Oh, and the important of well fitted underwear – basic IMO.
I don’t enjoy hook-ups so I avoid them. Partially because of what most of you stated – except sex, nothing else comes out of it as he won’t want a relationship with you.
I also dislike unwanted attention from males who you know you’d never even consider relationship material. You dress up, you make an effort and suddenly there is this random dude at a bar who looks like he could use a shower or two trying to get some with you.
On that note, since this is a blog with tips for men here are my two cents: Never underestimate the importance of appearance. In three words: Always dress well. You will look good and your value will increase. If you have no clue on what to wear or simply cannot be bothered investigating, ask a professional (e.g. shop assistant) for help.
Am I too picky? Perhaps, but I don’t feel that way. In fact, sometimes I feel I am too lenient.
@Starlight – “On that note, since this is a blog with tips for men here are my two cents: Never underestimate the importance of appearance. In three words: Always dress well. You will look good and your value will increase. If you have no clue on what to wear or simply cannot be bothered investigating, ask a professional (e.g. shop assistant) for help.”
Steel on Target!
As a rather fashion challenged man, I can say this can be a REAL issue to tackle. Truth be told, I tend to allow my wife to steer my fashion choices because:
1. I know I totally suck at it. (I can match colors, but that about sums it up…)
2. I HATE spending money on clothes, so I tend to always go for the stuff on clearance (which I’m told is often not very fashionable. LOL)
3. over all women on the planet, SHE is the one I’m trying to generate attraction with, so it makes sense to me that I should wear stuff SHE finds attractive on me.
To be sure, I don’t allow her to push me into wearing anything I find ugly, too loud, or outright embarrassing. (I can’t for the life of me understand why she thinks loudly colored plaid shorts are in ANY way attractive.) But, she seems to enjoy “helping” me look better.
It also gives her a stake in my appearance, which she extends the other way. More often than not the clothes she walks out of a store with have been Ted D approved, usually after a nice round of trying on clothes. No, I don’t mind at all. I get to watch my sexy woman play dress up, and she gives me deciding vote on what I’ll see her wearing later. Win/Win! And on the occasion that I’m not with her when she is clothes shopping, I often get pics by text asking for my opinion. (once it was bras she was trying on, and I got a “handful” of great pics to get my afternoon at work rolling! yes, pun intended…)
But, even a fashion challenged guy can make improvements. It doesn’t matter how great the clothes are if the body is a sad sack. Get in better shape, then go to a clothing store and chat up any cute/hot women working there. Ask them to help you pick some stuff out. Ask them what THEY think is attractive on you. Hell! You could parlay that into something more if you play your cards right. :p
Don’t ask a shop assistant. Ask me.
I’m just contemplating to make sure that good looks is the main thing which a woman needs to offer. If it holds as true, then I feel very happy about my future now. The remaining problem would only for me to get access to quality guys social circles.
After fixing the basic stuffs such as losing pounds etc., I may consider hiring a coach specialized in training fashion models. They may tune the shoulder/hip/leg etc. to even better shape. And since I was born with very nice facial features, I feel I am very in control of my beauty.(Well it’s indeed a shame I put so little efforts on my looking in the past while the majority of other girls do. OTOH, I have better raw materials than most of them so I won’t complain.)
I took a set of photos some days ago to record my looking transformation. I feel some of them are qualified to be put on magazine covers now(jk). I will do another photo shot again after I reach another milestone.
Btw, I also agree that social dominance is an arousing factor to attract women. However much I try to deny, from my sub consciousness, I get attracted to guys the most in a herd if he is the head of this herd…. And if a guy has the potential to be future herd leader with some personality traits demonstrated I am attracted too even if he is not yet.
@Grace
Welcome to justfourguys. You seem like a sensible woman from our discussions over at rulesrevisited.com.
I would say that sufficient looks (to whatever standard he holds) is a necessary component to get a man for a good long-term relationship or marriage but it’s not sufficient. Other factors, like personality, goals, her career, interests, and many more will be of importance in him wanting to marry a woman.
I think most men filter women like this:
1) Is she pretty enough? Is she above my minimum looks threshold for long term? If yes, then being prettier than that will have some benefit but not as much as the increase in beauty will from below to above the threshold.
2) If she has passed step 1 then he will start to filter on personality. Is she someone I enjoy being with and can picture spending my life with? Is she nice or a mean bitch? (And 99% of men do not like women for being bitches, maybe a few masochists do.)
3) If she passes step 2 then he’ll likely look at stuff like her career and goals. Is she a lazy sack or does she have something going on with her life? But not too much going on since that would mean she won’t have much time for him. The exception is some of the ambitious men who definitely want two high earners so that together they are making $200k to start with and can reack $1M plus as they progress to consulting partner or whatever.
Congrats on improving your appearance. I think that in addition to continuing with that that getting around the type of men you want (but staying within your league) is a very good next step.
@Esc
Maybe you should start a blog called, “Ask Escoffier.” lol
@Starlight
Sometimes men can get long term mates that are higher value than them (lucky bastards!) but it’s often that they just want someone of equal value (though their value may be distributed in different areas that men and women value differently from each other). But to think that men only partner up in value is not true to life.
I think that you can know if you’re just not compatible fairly soon and I’ve actually been able to determine when I was compatible fairly quickly with the few gf’s I was really excited about and they liked me back. But there were more subtle incompatibilities that arose later. One didn’t want kids, another never got as excited about me as I was about her (she wasn’t very romantic and I was).
So, I think you can tell pretty soon if you have a basic compatibility or not. But there’s a gray area too where one or the other person may not feel quite as excited. In the past I would bail on these when in hindsight I realized that I was being too picky myself and not realizing how few women met my long list and would actually like me back. That’s why I’ve come to the conclusion that I personally need to give relationships more of a chance to see if that emotional and conversational connection can grow more. I already had filtered them by looks to be above the threshold and so then I think I should have given it more time to get more comfortable with each other. Maybe we wouldn’t have but it would have been worth it trying it more.
I now realize that those perfect and mutually-infatuated romantic relationships are rarer and most people (especially picky ones like myself) have to really focus on what is most important to them and either get real or stay single.
I think that less picky people are more able to find happy relationships (assuming they filter out jerks and abusers) because they’re more easily pleased to begin with.
Totally off topic but this post was rather fascinating about a man posing as a female prostitute on craigslist to see what that world was like and what kind of men were soliciting.
http://30daystox.com/i-pretend-to-be-a-girl-and-get-my-tuition-paid-for/
“Not believing the amount of money that some of the girls were making, seriously they rake it in, I decided to pose as a Craigslist hooker. In each of my posts I’d come up with some outlandish request and still have it met. At one point I pretended to be a broke college girl living in Idaho and asked if any men would be willing to cover my tuition in exchange for sexual favors.”
@Escoffier – “Don’t ask a shop assistant. Ask me.”
That may work, but I’d remove the suggestion to parlay it into something more. I mean, you are spoken for and all. :p
seriously, you get the worst clothing advice from 99% salespeople, and worse if they are women. I however have nothing to gain, know what I am talking about, and would like to help where I can.
@ Ted D
Totally agree with your entire post. You are very lucky to have a wife like that!
@ Escoffier
Since you are spoken for, perhaps you might be able to do a guest post on the importance of male appearance?
Re: Fashion Assistants. I agree that some are useless and some are just there to sell whatever as long as it sells. But if you look around there is always one who is fabulous in giving good fashion advice. Fashion boutiques I find are good for that.
@HanSolo
“I think that less picky people are more able to find happy relationships (assuming they filter out jerks and abusers) because they’re more easily pleased to begin with.”
I have to agree with that statement. People who are easier to please in a relationship are more pleasant to be with. Learning to have fun with someone else even if the location isn’t great or the food isn’t fantastic – I think that is important.
Maturity gap is hamster for those men her age want younger and hotter (then her) and she is the younger and hotter for men slightly older then her.
cates comment is that day to day womanish disrespect, the kind that should be addressed by a casual bitch slap, (verbal or physical)
Here are my 2 cents for the ladies commenting on this excellent and important article. I really don’t want to be condescending, but this is really basic SMP/MMP stuff.
1. A few women can retain their attractiveness well into their 40s but most of it depends on how well they took care of themselves as younger women, and on genetics.
2. Cate, if you really are a 9 in your 40s, then you’ll get the following:
a. Men in their 50s and 60s will wife you up tomorrow (if you really are a 9).
b. Men in their 40s: some would wife you up, most will LTR you/sex you. some will sex you.
c. Men in their 20s and 30s will happily take you home for a one night stand, but will never, ever invest in you or wife you up. Even if you are a 40 year old 9, you’re too old for investment or commitment.
3. A 40 year old absolute 9, compared amongst all women, is exceedingly rare. That’s film actress territory. Sandra Bullock is a 40 year old, and she’s not a 9. Christie Brinkley at 40 was a 9. More likely, you’re a 9 relative to the fat, frumpy, 30 pounds overweight, muffin top sporting, mom-jean wearing, pumped out three kids, married 13 years/divorced for a few years, other 40 year olds you’re being compared to.
4. Ted D is right and this needs to be amplified: The hot men you’re attracted to and are willing to have sex with very soon after meeting them are not the ones who will wife you up. They’re not going to commit to you. Not now, not ever. Don’t think that offering up fast sex will snag them for commitment, because it most likely won’t.
5. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: Many women say here and elsewhere that they offer up sex and think they’re in a relationship. YOU’RE NOT. It’s sex. That’s it.
6. Women, your looks are at least 90%+ of initial attraction. If you don’t pass the looks test, you’re not getting past the initial filters. Fortunately, men’s attraction filters are much, much wider than women’s filters; and so our filters let many, many more women in than women’s filters admit men.
7. Grace, looks are the main thing a woman has to offer AT FIRST. That’s what gets you in the door with a man. Fortunately, that’s not difficult. It never ceases to amaze me that women do not understand just how easy it is for most women to be physically attractive. It doesn’t require model good looks. It just requires: keep your weight down, your hair long and your makeup on.
8. The SMP and the MMP are two different entities. The governing principles for one are not exactly the same as for the other.
a. The SMP is all about hard, visceral sexual attraction and attractiveness. For women, it’s all about looks. For men it’s about confidence, dominance, status and looks. For women it’s about getting sex from the hottest, most attractive men she can pull. For men it’s about getting sex, period. Women rule the SMP because they decide who gets sex when, where and under what circumstances.
b. The MMP is first about attraction, and then about time and money investment. For women it’s all about which men have resources and are willing to commit. For men it’s about finding the best looking woman who also has the suite of traits he desires: low N, domestic skills, wants to be wife and mom, helpmate, submissiveness. Men rule the MMP because they decide what woman gets investment and commitment, how much, when, and under what circumstances.
Here are the main misunderstandings I’m seeing over and over again, here and elsewhere:
WOMEN
1. Too many of you think your sex partner count, your N, doesn’t matter when you offer yourselves up for commitment. WRONG. Your N matters. A lot. You rack up a high N, you’re disqualifying yourselves for a lot of men.
2. Too many of you think you can lie about your Ns. WRONG. You can’t. The truth will come out eventually, maybe in a way you don’t like and cannot control. Men are learning the slut tells, and more often than not, they’re correct.
3. Too many of you think you can put off marriage until you’re 30 or later and still be as marketable and hot as you were at 20. WRONG. You’ll probably find someone willing to marry you, because the numbers show right now that women in their 30s and even early 40s at first marriage are still finding men to marry them, whether they were carousel riders or not. But here’s the rub: You’ll have to look downward in SMV to find men willing to marry you. The hot men who used to have sex with you when you were 20 are not going to be there to marry you when you’re ready.
4. Too many of you really believe that all men are out there having as much sex as you are. FALSE. You all suffer from the apex fallacy, meaning you’re attributing to all men what you see the top, high status, hot men doing. Not all men are getting laid every weekend. Not all men are players; in fact, most men are constitutionally incapable of being players.
5. Too many of you women really believe that it’s terribly difficult to get a boyfriend. Sorry, I don’t believe it. Not for one minute. Maybe some of the problem is that you’re too picky, too unforgiving, too immature, too flakey, too flighty, too bitchy, too shortsighted, or you hang around shitty men, players and cads.
MEN
1. Too many of you think your looks don’t matter. FALSE. Your looks matter. A lot. You need to dress well, get in shape, hit the gym. You need to get a decent haircut. You need to take care of your personal hygiene issues. You need to do all you can to improve your physical appearance.
2. Too many of you think you can learn to spit some game and score same night lays with models. FALSE. If you’re a male 5 or 6, you are not going to be banging 9s and 10s. It’s not going to happen.
3. Too many of you think that it’s all about getting laid. FALSE. It’s about fixing yourself. It’s about being the best man you can be. It’s about living the life YOU want and then making a worthy woman part of that life (if you want that).
4. Too many of you put up with way too much shit from women. STOP DOING THAT. Some of us need to be without a woman for a while. Some of us need to be alone for a while so we can get better. Some of us need to lay down the law. End a relationship the moment it ceases to serve your interests.
5. Too many of you rely emotionally way too much on the women in your life. STOP DOING THAT. She is not your sounding board or your confidant. She is not your mother, your doctor, your therapist or your healer. If you need to pour your heart out to someone, find a good male friend who will listen to you. If you feel anger, fear, despair, depression, rage or other negative emotions, for the love of Pete DO NOT show it to your woman. Talk to a friend. Talk to a counselor so you can get it off your chest. If a woman sees you emoting like that she’ll lose attraction for you; and you’ll put your relationship in jeopardy.
Deti – spot on, as usual. I still struggle with your last point to be honest. Not controlling my emoting, but the strong desire to turn my wife into my therapist. I still find myself bitter over the loss of the “wife as best friend” concept I used to believe in. And no matter how I try to connect with male friends for that outlet, it does not serve the same purpose or fill the same void. (Which is probably why I’m still a bit bitter over it. I haven’t found any suitable replacement for the concept, nor an outlet that replaces it for venting all that negative emotional crap that builds up.) I’ve found that overall I am much happier with my life post Red Pill, but in many ways it feels very lonely. This is a perfect example of that loneliness.
Ted:
Thanks. I love your blog. I think it’s great what you guys are doing. But I’m seeing the same thing over and over again from women especially, and it’s usually:
1. All men want supermodels or fitness instructors
2. All men are getting laid like tile
3. I can’t get a boyfriend because shallow superficial men who just want to fuck me and don’t want to have a relationship with me
4. I should be able to fuck like a man with no consequences because fairness, dammit!
F that S, ladies. It’s crap. How many times are you going to go home with Fuckbuddy Rockbanddrummer and let him use and abuse you?
I just wanted to point out that one thing I sort of overlooked in this study is that there is no guarantee that the males and females are part of a closed population and exclusively having sex or relationships with each other. So there could be some leakage, especially of the women dating older men. This shouldn’t change the conclusion that the hotter men are having some of their N from less attractive women. If anything it would mean the women are underreporting their N even more since the young men in this study would tend to have sex with same-age or younger-age women, and women have a lower average age of first sex than men do.
However, the average age was about 21.5 (with the partners obviously acquired beforehand, when they were younger) so I think that there shouldn’t be much effect on the overall message, even if the precise numbers of how much sex the men were actually getting from these women changes a bit. Also, we don’t know how many men and women are in relationships at the time of the study and whether there were equal numbers and whether they were with the same cohort being studied.
Also, the part about 31% of men thinking it was sex only and 19% of women could be alleviated if a lot of women were having relationships with older men that wouldn’t think it was sex only. But then that raises the question of who are these men having the sex-only relationships with?
Due to these unanswered questions (I’m sure with a lot of delving into one could find the answers) it’s interesting to see if these findings are found elsewhere. Here’s another study that shows that women tend to think the relationship is more solid and long term than the men do.
http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/07/men-and-women-often-expect-different-things-when-they-move-in-together/277571/
@Deti (your first comment)
Great comment overall. Agree with points 1 through 8a and even much of 8b (for a slight modification, see below).
I do think that Cate was only saying she was a 9 relative to other 40 y/o’s, not an absolute 9. I once went out with a woman who was about 44 and looked more like mid 30’s and looked like an absolute 8. She would probably be a 9.5 relative to other 40 y/o’s.
I will slightly disagree with your last point 8b because I think that women also have a huge role as chooser in the MMP. So I fully agree that women are the sex gate keepers the vast majority of the time (unless you’re talking about outlier voluntary religious-virgin males or cases where the man is 4 pts hotter than the would be seductress). But women are not only picky about who they have casual sex with, they’re also picky about who they marry. They are picky first of all by filtering out most men and not even giving them a chance. Then, 2nd, they are picky in wanting to commit to the men they date. This is mostly true while they’re in their 20’s and at max power. Yes, somewhere in the early 30’s the tide turns and men have more and more of the power.
For example, I had a gf in my 20’s I wanted to marry and she ended up breaking up with me after a year. She was about an 8 in looks and we had great conversational chemistry. However, I was too into her and didn’t step back enough to let her attraction and love (in spite of the fact she often said she loved me) potentially grow stronger. She broke up with me. She was the commitment gate keeper, first of delaying in accepting my desire to be gf/bf and then later in just not wanting to get married and dumping me.
Now, I look at her about 9 years later and her looks have declined (probably a 6.5 now) and so I wouldn’t even date her, though if I’d have married her I have no doubt I’d still be in love with her since for me the looks are more of an initial obstacle to get over and once I’m in love I stay in love until bad treatment or outright decline into obesity or ugliness wakes me out of that blissful view of my woman. The normal decline with age isn’t going to cause me to stop being attracted, it would be more of totally letting herself go and declining below the normal trajectory.
I just wanted to point out this distinction, that there is not really a symmetry between women being the main sex gate keepers and men being the main commitment gate keepers.
The only way to see men as the main commitment gate keepers is to only select the smaller portion of men that women want to have commitment from more than the men do.
When it comes to a female 6 and a male 6, in their 20’s it will often be the female that is more of the commitment gatekeeper (as well as the sexual one). Now after mid 30’s then, yes, the male 6 will be much more likely to be the commitment gatekeeper.
Thoughts on that?
@deti (your 2nd comment)
These are the kind of messages women need to hear. Yes, they are blunt but too many young women are deluded into thinking they can get the same man to marry that they can have sex with. And some of them don’t learn for a long time, continuing to think they’re hotter than they are into their 40’s.
Those words will be perceived as harsh by some women but they’re spot on. (I might replace a few “all”s with “most” but that doesn’t really change the overall message.)
Regarding pt. 3), Dalrock’s post showing more and more women postponing marriage will likely result in many of the postponers never getting married, and certainly not in time to have as many kids as they wanted, or any.
http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/11/24/more-grim-news-for-carousellers-hoping-to-jump-at-the-last-minute/
Notice the spike in never-married white women of age 25-29 from 2007 to 2012, jumping from 39% to 47.5% That’s the age when they probably have the best odds of finding a stable marriage and still be attractive enough to find men they are more attracted to. But instead of taking advantage of their power they’re putting it off.
Then look at the 30-34 y/o cohort. Only ~1/6 of them married by 5 years later.
I suspect that as time passes that big wave of 25-29 y/o postponers will not all be absorbed into the ranks of the married and it will cause the ranks of the older never-married cohorts to go up too.
You can already start to see that with the 30-34 and 35-39 y/o cohorts.
I am very curious for the 2013 data to come out to provide the next update. Who knows? Maybe it will start to level off (meaning the big spike was more due to the Great Recession) but I’m guessing the numbers will be keep going up for next few years.
@Deti (3rd comment)
Great advice to men. No quibbles with any of it.
@Ted
I feel you, brother. One of my strongest desires is to be understood, and especially by a woman I love. But there are some things best kept to oneself. However, I think over time and with a strong frame you can open up about certain things more and more and achieve some level of that connection you want but tread carefully. And make sure to not unload everything at once. I think that if you are showing enough value, dominance and strong frame that then that can allow you to let out pieces of vulnerability at times (but don’t go overboard) and that can bond her to you even more emotionally because she was able to get the strong man to open up and trust her just enough to create the bond but not so much as to push her “panic! pussy-man at the helm” buttons.
@Deti
Yep, a lot of men are just invisible to women in terms of attractiveness and so the apex fallacy rears its head (thinking all men are like the apex of men you notice).
As I said above, this is one of the hardest red pill truths for many women, particularly the more picky and hypergamous ones:
Some of the comments in this thread have touched the importance of female appearance regarding (initial) attraction.
I have a close female friends who is about my age (early 20s) and who has some trouble attracting suitable male suitors. In last 6 months two of her serious crushes from our circle of friends have gotten engaged (and married). It seems to me that this has had a negative effect on her self esteem. My friend is a lovely person but the mentality that appearance should not matter is very persistent. Like myself she appreciates masculine men but unfortunately those who have caught her eye have been out of her league. My advice to her has not been most consoling (in her eyes) but i care about her long term well-being so i have shared some basic information about male attraction triggers. So far she has not been very eager to apply that advice in her life (such as putting more effort in her appearance).
@Chant
That’s too bad she’s more invested in living an illusion than accepting reality, a painful reality that sometimes says we can’t have it all.
I guess she’ll just have to keep touching the stove and getting burnt until she (hopefully) finally learns.
Give her a hug and tell her there are men that will love her and that those men are feeling just as bad as she is when she doesn’t give them the time of day.
Deti’s #5…. so why invest in a relationship at all when I could just have a hooker and a therapist? If i have to keep up the macho bullshit and can’t express myself when needed to a woman who’s supposed to be my life parter, what do I need that woman for other than sex?
@SDS
Well, there are a lot of good women out there too…just have to find the right one and be attractive enough to win her over…that is, if one wants a woman one has to pay the price (and I’m not talking about money) and it’s an elevated price with the way hypergamy interacting with the safe, rich and feminist environment has made many women way too picky and not worth marrying. But there are good ones out there. So a man can go that hard route of making himself even more attractive and appealing or he can also choose to just say “fuck it” and GTOW or even resort to prostitutes (though it is illegal in many countries and brings its attendant risks with it).
“… resort to prostitutes (though it is illegal in many countries and brings its attendant risks with it).”
Actually prostitution is legal in most industrialized countries in some form or another (the US is an exception). It is risky though. Unless a guy has enough money to pay high-end escorts, in which case the risks are probably minimal.
You also have a lot of low-value guys go the sex tourism route in the Caribbean or Southeast Asia. Basically SMV arbitrage, in many ways.
Some people in the more feminist blogosphere have been talking about the Hoinsky seduction book and brought up a quote of his about whipping out your cock and grabbing her hand and putting it on your dick, as if this were something you just do out of the blue, as if he were advocating rape. They need to read the whole piece before jumping to such dumbass conclusions and making morons out of themselves.
The feminazis (and males can be feminazis too) just totally took that part out of context to make it look as bad as possible, and lots of gullible white-knight fools fell for it, just like the feminazis were counting on.
A hell of a lot of things have had to have happened before you whip it out, according to his writing. First, you’re out on a date and flirting all the while. And you’ve gotten her back home, all of her free will. Then you start kissing. She is free (in his writing) at any point to stop and the man should respect that, if it really is a “I don’t want to do this” kind of stop.
But, assuming she wants to kiss the man then he advises to continue kissing and step by step escalate more and more, kissing neck, collarbone, etc., rubbing hands up and down her legs and the side of her breasts, gradually moving closer to more erogenous zones.
Then go to the boobs for a few minutes. Assuming she’s into then go to pussy fondling.
Assuming she’s been up for all of this and is still willing, then and only then, go for pulling out your cock and putting her hand on it.
Sounds a whole lot different than the feminists and the foolish mangina white knights would have you believe, doesn’t it?
Here’s the link. Read it for yourself.
http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_game_part_7_physical_escalation_sex/
[…] Study Shows Women Fuck Hotter Men […]
[…] when it comes to sex, women are the primary gatekeepers of sex. This is evident in the fact that women can fuck hotter men, men have been measured to be more sexually unrestricted on average, men will pay women for sex, […]
[…] they wish. So it’s no real surprise that there are many women who use this to full advantage, sleeping with the highest status men. On some occasions, some women will have sex in the bar bathroom or within a few hours of first […]
[…] they wish. So it’s no real surprise that there are many women who use this to full advantage, sleeping with the highest status men. On some occasions, some women will have sex in the bar bathroom or within a few hours of first […]
[…] There is a general consensus in the manosphere that young women in their early 20s hold all the power in the sexual marketplace, but that this changes as women start to age and men enter their peak in their 30s. This is easily observable by simply taking a look at the sexual and romantic dynamics around you. This observation also has significant acceptance in popular culture, as the well known quote above suggests. Nevertheless, it continues to recieve pushback in the media, especially from feminists and aging “independent” women who spent their 20s living rather irresponsibly. […]
[…] Stop being so picky. Don’t price yourself out of the market. Get a realistic understanding of the level of men that will stay with you for the long term and not just a night. The level of man you can get to commit for the long term will usually not be as “hot” as the man you can get for a night of sex. […]
[…] There is a general consensus in the manosphere that young women in their early 20s hold all the power in the sexual marketplace, but that this changes as women start to age and men enter their peak in their 30s. This is easily observable by simply taking a look at the sexual and romantic dynamics around you. This observation also has significant acceptance in popular culture, as the well known quote above suggests. Nevertheless, it continues to recieve pushback in the media, especially from feminists and aging “independent” women who spent their 20sliving rather irresponsibly. […]
Now that I’m in my late thirties and financially independent I feel free to do what I want, and not what I “should.” I like younger men. I don’t care if he stays because I don’t need him to. I understand who will stay, but I’m not going to be unhappy to make it happen. 25 y/o male sluts are fine by me as long as they know when to leave.
uh huh
[…] whatever other adjective tingles their fancy–than they can get to marry. As I reported here, women are having sex with hotter […]
[…] clearly placed the woman on the fuck ladder and she thinks she's on the relationship ladder. See this study where women fuck hotter men and where more women than men thought they were in a committe… while more men than women thought it was just […]
[…] you’re watching even the women in your peer assortative mating group – HB 4s through 7s — having sex with more attractive men than you; then settling for their peers (you) after they’ve […]
[…] Well, when it comes to spontaneous, casual sex, we know that women are vastly much more picky than men in terms of accepting offers. Women are generally speaking the gatekeepers of sex. In this experiment, no one accepted the man’s offer but about half of the men accepted the woman’s. If she’d calmed their BS-o-meter more no doubt the acceptance rate would have even been higher. A study exists claiming that women want casual sex as much as men but only if that man were Johnny Depp (or presumably whomever the delicious catch of the day is). We also know that women have sex with hotter men. […]