Thanks to J4G reader Gurney Hallock, who has broght to our attention the following breaking news story:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/24/shooting-california-santa-barbara/9532405/
You can see Mr. Rodgers’ YouTube “manifesto” for yourself, here:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sbv5Vpa-B-0
I know this is highly unusual for us but this is a very important story that is right in our wheelhouse of discussion topics here at J4G. And I wanted to get out in front of this thing before the You Know Who’s get ahold of it. Early bird gets the worm and all that.
OK ladies and gents – let er rip…
Now adjourn your arses…
The Obsidian
Tagging…
O.
Cue our “friends” (Hi J!) making snarky remarks about checking to see who he posted as in the Manosphere.
@Jimmy:
Precisely – so, for the Official Record, Ms. J, please take notes:
WE DO NOT ENDORSE OR COSIGNE WHAT MR. RODGERS IS ALLEGED TO HAVE DONE.
Capice?
Now, listen even more very, very carefully:
WE HERE AT J4G HOWEVER, DO FEEL THAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT LED TO MR. RODGERS’ ALLEGAED ACTIONS, INFORM SEXUAL POLITICS AND ATTENDANT RED PILL ISSUES IN OUR TIME.
That, is why we have posted the topic, and that, is why we are discussing it.
Please get the facts straight.
I have just laid them out to you.
O.
Reposting JF12’s comment on the matter from the “Talking Your Book” thread, #241:
“jf12 says:
May 24, 2014 at 10:23 am (Edit)
#235 Seven dead, others still critical.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/3-dead-7-wounded-drive-by-shooting-uc-santa-barbara-article-1.1804163
“A visibly shaken student told the station she was approached by the driver of a black BMW who flashed a handgun and asked “Hey, what’s up?” The student, who didn’t provide her full name, said she thought he was carrying an airsoft gun and kept walking. She said seconds later, she felt something buzz by her head and quickly realized they were bullets.”
Apparently he had settled on “Hey, what’s up?” as ironic. He was actively anti-pua and anti-manosphere, disgusted by women’s receptivity to Game.”
Comments?
O.
Obsidian, thanks for jumping out ahead of this story. Three initial points.
1. Apparently Elliot Rodgers was very anti-manosphere, hated the fact that he observed women being susceptible to Game, and literally anti-gamed himself to death, and others with him. Nvertheless, this will be spun in the media as resulting from Game destroying lives.
2. There will be laws resulting from this, not just calls for laws, restricting men from approaching women unsuccessfully (women do NOT want attractive men restricted). Despite the fact that Elliot’s problem was that he could NOT approach women successfully, there will be laws restricting the dessemination of advice on how to approach successfully. It is coming.
3. The privilege argument is seen to be bogus. If a dorky white guy who’s well connected and rich can’t get laid, then clearly it’s his dorkiness that’s the Humpty Dumpty insoluble problem and clearly all his whiteness and richness couldn’t put that together again.
@JF12:
No problem, bro.
OK, before we get the party started on your Point No. 1:
Do we have any Smoking Gun evidence, that supports your claims? This is VERY important because, Streets Is Watchin'; so by all means, if you have the evidence to back you up, post that up ASAP.
My responses to your other points to come later…
O.
#6 re: evidence. Besides his manifesto (someone plz transcribe), he was an active member of puahate forums, and his posts are still visible.
Update, his posts on puahate are currently being deleted. His fb and blog are still visible.
@JF12:
Would you mind please linking to some of those posts, and/or quoting Mr. Rodgers directly from said forums? I ask because, as I’ve said, Streets Is Watchin’, and we want to beultra careful that we get ALL the facts straight. If you know what I mean.
Thanks!
O.
@JF12:
Hmm…not good. OK, can you post anything up by him that corroborates your assertions? Chop, chop, looks like they may take everything by him down before long…thanks!
O.
“He was actively anti-pua and anti-manosphere, disgusted by women’s receptivity to Game.”
Blue-pill beta whiteknight fantasies kill, or more accurately, they kill when they are brought into an unalloyed contrast with observable reality with no guidance on how to handle it.
We’re here to educate people into reality and importantly the reasons for it so they can use their knowledge constructively.
Not that the MSM is going to care, but the idea that the dude was sexually frustrated and thus went on a mass murdering rampage, and thus male sexuality is murderously dangerous, is a weak syllogism.
In all likelihood the dude was seriously mentally compromised and his romantic failures simply formed a psychic frame that to him rationalized his actions.
#10 roosh forums have screenshots of his posts, videos he’s posted, etc. I don’t delve there, though, so someone else will have to.
http://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-36406.html
@Badger 12-13:
Cosigned 100%
O.
@JF12 13:
Good looking out!–and if anyone else out there can bring forward relevant info on Mr. Rodgers’, by all means post it here. This will kind of act as the “fact finding” post on the matter; II am sure the team will have more to say on it in the coming days.
Here’s a very interesting quote from of all people, RoooshV himself:
“He is self-delusional and massively entitled, but exposing him to game may have saved lives. A lot of lonely beta males will identify with him.
Edit: He used the phrase “alpha male” around 3:07 of the first video.”
This is RooshV, again, a direct quote on Mr. Elliot Rodgers, and comes from his “forum” section of his website. Thanks again for JF12 for the link!
O.
Again, courtesy of the Roosh Forums, by way of JF12, here is the link to Mr. Rodgers’ personal website, where he apparently made only one entry:
http://elliotrodger.blogspot.com/2014/04/lonely-in-santa-barbara.html
Comments?
O.
Roosh Forum poster “Ensam” says the following about Mr. Rodgers:
“Just as a note – he wasn’t a student at the college associated with the area he shot up. He was enrolled at SBCC which is about ten miles away from Isla Vista and UCSB. IV isn’t officially associated with UCSB but it’s where most of the UCSB students live. Increasingly dudes going to SBCC have chosen to live in IV in hopes of getting access to UCSB girls and the local party scene – it can create some friction. The SBCC girls mostly live downtown closer to the bars and clubs.”
Hmm! I take it “SBCC” stands for Santa Barbara Community College? And if so, he was trying to punch above his own weight, if you will? Could that have anythhing to do with why he felt some kind of way about the UCSB sorority gals(!) passing him over, passing him by?
Comments anyone?
O.
Meh. Frankly I can’t get worked up about it. This kind of stuff is almost becoming predictable at this point, frankly. HUS, feminist websites, tradcon sites and the entire mainstrean media will go apesh*t about it, which is also predictable. There will be more calls for tougher online censorship of “misogyny” and “hate speech”, which has been predicted many times in the ‘sphere as well. No surprises here, really.
I’ll just have a beer. There’s nothing new under the sun.
More from the Roosh Forums:
“Icarus [24]
Here is his profile on bodybuilding.com. He was 5ft9in tall, weighed 135 pounds.”
Hmm! Comments?
O.
C’mon guys, we all know there’s no such thing as hypergamy. I’m sure all those UCSB sorority girls are just as attracted to community college guys as they are to frat boys.
#16
It’ll probably get deleted. By the way, #18 was by me, it’s just that my typing is kind of screwed up today.
More commentary from the Rooosh Forums; here is commenter Days of Broken Arrows:
His monologue refrain of “I’ve got everything, why don’t girls like me?” closely mirrors what another mass killer, George Sodini, went around saying before he shot up a bunch of women in a gym.
“There’s got to be some sort of personality disorder or mental illness that causes guys like this not to understand how they come across to people (i.e. scary and off-putting).
And by the way, he’s taller than Neil Strauss. And he has hair, too.”
Comments?
O.
Finally (at least for now)), RooshV himself comes back with the following thoughts:
“I’m trying to think of ways our enemies will come after us because of this, but if anything, we’re the solution to this sort of murder rampage. This is the society that progressives wanted, where women are fully able to choose the top 10% of alpha males while shaming masculinity, leaving beta males with modest resources in the dust. Of course they will simply push a ban on guns, but this wholly neglects the cause. Seven people died because this guy couldn’t get laid, at the same time the Federal government is pursuing kangaroo courts to kick men out of college for “rape” that doesn’t need to be proved in a court of law. How can they not see this connection?
Society gave beta males a bargain—they work hard with the expectation of a wife and family. That bargain no longer exists so we can’t be surprised when one loses his mind and starts shooting. At the very least, prostitution should be legalized as a release valve. If the killer had access to some high quality hookers for $150 a pop, it would have given him some meaning.”
So, let’s summarize:
The quuotations in this thread thus far, have come from one of the Manosphere’s largest PUA sites, which have included direct quotes of its foounder itslf, ROOSHV, and he does NOT sound supportive, in any way, of Mr. Rodgers’ alleged actions. Nor do his forum participants.
Questions? Comments?
O.
I remember encouraging guys here to “get game” and being made out to be a villain. “It’s not that easy, so fuck you and your glib attitude, Star Child!”
So…what else is there to say, really? I am really sad for that kid and all others like him. But if we’re going to continue to wallow and focus on the negative all the time, what hope is there?
@Star Child
I don’t remember that thread, but my guess is the criticism was based more on your tone, rather than your argument.
People that just show up with a lecturing, “you need to listen to me” attitude are never received well. Maybe that wasn’t your intention, but I bet it was received that way.
Santa Barbara City College. I’m reasonably familiar with both places and I know alumni of each and have visited both many times, most recently in 2012.
This is really glorious real estate, both campuses. The SB coast has been called “America’s Riviera” and with good reason. You have Santa Barbara itself, probably the nicest town in California and the whole West coast, plus a string of lovely little placed, backed by the Santa Ynez Mountains, with the Channel Islands just offshore (and quite visible on clear days), and the SB wine country to the NW and LA off to the east, close enough for easy access, far enough not to feel too connected.
SBCC’s campus is arguably even better situated than UCSB, it’s right above the harbor, on a hill above the ocean, walking distance to State Street, which is the heart of downtown. UCSB is the “better” school; that is, it’s competitive to get in, unlike City, which is open enrollment. The area is also on a beach but IV is run down compared to SB.
SBCC is open enrollment, as I said, anyone can get it, and the cost is very low. The idea is, you do your two years and then transfer the credits to a UC where you get your degree. It’s considered probably the premier community college in the whole state because of its location and facilities. Orange Coast, down south, is also up there, and there are a few others, but SBCC is really a gem.
UCSB, on the other hand, is in the lower tier of UCs. HOWEVER—and this is the key, and it is true of both schools—they are notorious party spots and have been legendary for attracting the hottest girls since well before I was born. That is still very true today.
So (and I’m sure this will be misinterpreted somewhere), think for a moment about the environment this kid was in. Surrounded by hot, hot, hot girls and douchey guys. Literally, everywhere he looks there are dozen more. There’s a party every night, several every night. He’s never invited and if he tries to crash, he’s not welcome. The scene is all around him and he can take no part. Very likely, he was treated like complete dirt.
That’s in no way meant as an excuse, a justification, or anything else. I do recall the Virginia Tech shooter making despondent comments about the hookup scene that he was locked out of, so there may be a link here. I’ve never been to VT, but I know SB/IV very well and I have to imagine that whatever the party scene is like at VT, SB out-does it by a factor of 10.
Oh, I forgot Montecito, which outclasses Beverley Hills in exclusivity. A starter home is $10 million, a nice place more like $40 million. Oprah lives there.
I’d say you’re correct. I’ve never been to UCSB, but I have been to VT and would compare it to the large college town state schools that aren’t elite, but still very respected (Georgia, Oklahoma, NC State, etc.). Students certainly party often (as they do at most campuses), but it’s not the all out extreme bender that the top party schools are.
Strange guy. I only wonder if he was so strange in person, or it’s only his videos. In videos, he looks almost as if he’s acting, and it’s just a film project, or something. When he said he wants to slaughter people like animals, the Anakin Skywalker performance came to mind.
He seems kinda narcisstic and entitled, although you’d think a narcissist would be charming with good manipulation skills. He is always asking why girls won’t have him. Proof that ignorance is not bliss.
@Jimmy, I think Ms. Star Child may be referrng to the following discussion:
http://www.justfourguys.com/the-almighty-power-of-preselection/
O.
@Ms. Emma:
May I ask – do you know Arpageus? He’s a cat from Norway, I used to chat with him way back when we were both a part of the old Roissy blog crowd. If you don’t know the name, please disregard.
Back to your comment above: I like the Anakin Skywalker reference! Very astute.
O.
Oh wait, he was in puahate forum? I guess he wasn’t just clueless, then.
@Esco:
Thanks so much for the explainer of the SBCC and UCSB “ecosystems”! Much appreciated. Puts things into a much better perspective.
While we’re at it – would you happen to know anything about Pasadena City College? I ask because the notorious Hugo Schwyzer taught there. Anything you could add would be appreciated. Thanks!
O.
@Ms. Emma:
Yes, apparently Mr. Rodgers was known to frequent PUA Hate.com, but we haven’t been able to get any direct confirmation of this; PUAHate has shut their site down “for maintenence”; word on the wires is that they’re taking all of Rodgers’ comments down.
O.
Obsidian,
Yeah, I know Arpagus (if this is whom you were asking about). He’s my bf. It’s the same guy as Eivind Berge. Angry incels is an interesting topic to me, since I met one. But I gotta say, this Elliot guy is totally different.
Been thinking about a couple of items which this might put together.
Why are prostitutes–which is to say using them–considered shameful, even by a lot of guys?
Let’s try this: It isn’t getting laid that’s the issue. It’s respect, appreciation and approval from women, especially attractive women. Now, you can’t get much more appreciation–or so it would seem–from a woman than when she agrees to have sex with you.
Paying for it doesn’t get the respect, etc. Paying for it is shameful because…you can’t get it by yourself. Substitute “sex” for “appreciation, etc” and see if there’s any difference.
Say, fifty years ago when getting sex early and often without having to be really Serious was much less common. Guys still got happy or depressed depending on whether a woman expressed “appreciation, trust, positive feelings, etc.’ or dumped him because she no longer felt he was worthy of her. And sex might, or might not, be involved in the situation.
I have a hypo that, if the social scene didn’t involve practically everybody getting laid practically all the time and involving hot women–or so it would seem from the outside–but instead involved positive regard, trust, appreciation and approval from women sans sex, this guy would still have been left out. IOW, nothing to do with sex except that, today, sex is the only way to feel a woman thinks you’re worth the time of day.
@Ms. Emma:
YES! I knew it was you. You’re quite the looker too, I must say – although I have always been a sucker for a Redhead.
Please tell Arpie that I’m thinking of him, and that I am so very happy for him that he found you. I used to “counsel” him when were back over at the Roissy blog, and he was quite in a bad way given his incel state. Man must bust, if you know what I mean, and pressure bursts pipes…I think you see where I’m going with this.
I am of the view that YES, Game Saves Lives. I remember giving Arpie some advice on how to hit up the clubs – I simply told him to observe and report. Nothing more. Just watch what goes down and take notes – what the gals do, who they talk to, how they act, what they wear; how the guys act, who they talk to, what they wear, et al.
Well, he wound up picking up a gal while not even trying(!) – classic Fool’s Mate for sure, but out in the field, a Win’s a Win! Had a very nice time with the young lady he reported.
Good for him!
If you don’t mind my asking – could you tell us how you two met?
O.
@Richard Aubrey:
That’s your article right there. Polish it up and email it to me at: theobsidianfiles@hotmail.com! Thanks!
O.
Obsidian,
I actually remember reading/talking with him about your help
He told me he got one woman with game, but later it wasn’t working anymore, and he wasn’t sure he could really learn it. He was still incel a lot, and often writing angry posts and politically inflammatory posts. It gave him a lot of negative internet fame. But it attracted my attention and I felt bad for him/hot for him and had sex with him before he could stab a cop (I later learned this is what was gonna happen).
Game saves lives, and often so does fame
Like you say, a win is a win.
@Ms. Emma:
Wow! So, let me get this straight: you actually met him by way of the Internet? Or did you meet him in person first? Or what? Just trying to understand exactly how you two came together.
Secondly: what attracted you to him, is I may ask? What “did it” for you? You don’t sound like you were on a “mission of mercy” so to sppeak – though there are quite a few ladies who have that impulse. Personally, I have no problem with it at all – it’s completely natural for a Woman to want to help a “wounded” Man.
Going back to me – in fairness, I never “counseled” Arpie on Game per se, because he was starting from so way behind the 8-ball; so, my aim was to just get him out of the house, among people, and watching what was going down so he could get a better sense of things. That’s when he had his Fool’s Mate. Which again, is a beautiful thing, because he learned that many Women want sex, too, that they have urges and needs and that there ain’t nothing wrong in the least to get them fulfilled. And that she chose him, proved that he wasn’t as bad off as he had thought – and then you came along and chose him also. He’s a winner!
If I may Ms. Emma, could you share your thoughts on the whole Incel piece, the spate of Incel shootings that have been happening over roughly the past decade, etc et al? Please feel free to elaborate. Given your unique position, you know better than most Women what the deal is on this score. Thanks!
O.
I have to admit that I am a little afraid to comment. Without more informatio, I’d be going off half cocked.
This tragedy could have been avoided if only this guy had access to good information about the current sexual marketplace. He’d be hunkered down, trying to figure it all out instaead.
Going on a killing spree is not the typical reaction to involuntary celibacy. One would think that doing oneself in would be far more likely. I have to wonder how many suicides are being swept under the rug.
“The Supreme Gentleman.” Supremely narcissistic incel is more like it.
It’s revealing and sad that we as men have put so high a value on women that some of us will resort to things like this when we don’t get them. Some have suggested that he should’ve learned “game”. Screw that; he should’ve just realized that both women and conformity just aren’t really worth it in the long run and Gone His Own Way.
It begins.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/24/1301671/-Elliot-Roger-Gunman-in-California-Mass-Shooting-was-influenced-by-the-Men-s-Rights-Movement
If you’re crazy and violent, the world will supply you with some reason to kill. I don’t care how successful or unsuccessful with women you are.
Susie declined your invitation to the prom; you got fired from your job; the government is taxing you too much; rich people have annoying laughs; poor people stink; the cashier messed up your order at McDonald’s; your Mom has you on a curfew.
That is all this is. People will try to make this into something other than what it is. It’s not about sex. It’s not about men and women. It’s not about gender relations. It’s not even about sexism or misogyny.
It’s about a sick guy with a gun.
@IP
I agree. This guy guy would’ve eventually found some reason to do what he did. He just happened to settle on this rationalization.
A great response here:
https://www.facebook.com/dregsonesf/posts/766504183394873
I got a lot of thoughts. To make it easier, I put some titles in
How we met:
I read his blog, and to begin with I reacted like most people – thought he was weird, probably dangerous to a woman, “crazy”, etc. Like Elliot Rodger. So I read him for entertainment without commenting for a while. Then, since I read so much, I realized he was probably not harmful to a woman if she was nice to him. When I started emailing him, I even realized his political views weren’t wrong. Then we met in person.
What did it for me:
When I was in my teens, I was a weird, lonely kid, and on some subconscious level, felt I should date someone similar. I was actually planning to date a really fat basement dweller, or a deformed guy, or something like that. But then I met the manosphere and realized loveless and sexless men are not exactly the same thing as physically ugly men (lol, there goes that male looks discussion again). That a cute man can be in that situation too (and many of these incel killers often are cute). I just had a special place in my heart for guys no one else wants, because they are likely to be nice to me. It’s not just a matter of the heart though – it’s exciting to have sex with an incel.
A little more on the recent killer:
One interesting thing I noticed is that a guy can sound creepy/looney online, but be normal and pleasant if you meet. That’s why I look at Elliot Rodger’s videos and wonder if he was like that all the time, or we’re just witnessing the result of his incel. I gotta say though, he is too young to be in such a bad shape, and thus seems very different from Eivind and even Sodini.
About incels killing people:
As for incels going on sprees, I’m not sure if this is happening more or less than before. But Eivind had an opinion on it, which was interesting. He said that redistribution of money through taxes and affirmative action favored women. It made them more picky, and made the middle-class beta position useless for attracting women (since women earn as much as him). And in Norway, he can’t even pay for sex without cops watching him, fining him and organising stings (here, only buying is criminalized), and driving up the price. In USA, I understand the situation is different. Me and Eivind once talked about why George Sodini didn’t just pay someone to have sex with him. Perhaps Sodini was too far gone to think clearly about it. He was alone for 20 whole years. I was told that simple prolonged lack of touch can cloud thinking with anger and other negative emotions, which can partially dissipate if you cuddle a woman. And simply being alone for too long is bad for human minds. Perhaps it’s like the old saying that “You don’t know how sick you were, until you got your health back”. Sex with a prostitute would have helped, IMO. And simply having friends, too. But those are just my guesses. It’s interesting, and I will ask Eivind more about what he thinks, too.
Emma,
Your comment about lack of touch goes along with my thoughts about how important community is, would you say some sort of physical attachment to community would have helped?
“I remember encouraging guys here to “get game” and being made out to be a villain. “It’s not that easy, so fuck you and your glib attitude, Star Child!””
Way to make the discussion about seven dead people and its wide-ranging social implications all about you.
Tying this guy to some blog as some sort of proof, makes about much sense as tying Andrea Yates to Babies R Us. And she killed her own *children*, what kind of monster would do that???
Mentally damaged people will do crazy things. Mentally damaged people will also try to leverage it to score political points against people they disagree with.
One more thing: everyone often blames poor mental health for this. I can see why people would think that, especially in this young man’s case, but I disagree that this is always the cause. Or even most of the time. I’m sure some of those were unhealthy, but I don’t believe the idea that the way they were is completely unrelated to their incel status.
I look back on all those trolls who attacked Eivind on his blog. They made these kind of claims:
1)”His problem won’t be solved with sex, because he has a mental/character problem. If he has sex, he’ll still be a miserable SOB”
2) “Sex is not a need, just use your hand. Feeling so acutely negative about lack of sex is an abnormal, unhealthy reaction”
3)”He’s not negative because he’s incel, he’s incel because he’s so negative and women can sense his crazy”
Well, Eivind got sex and was happy, therefore disproving that theory that whatever he had couldn’t be solved with sex. But that’s just him personally. Lets look at the statement no. 2. Is it a sign of bad mental health to react badly to incel? Is it a sign of bad mental health to react badly to lack of food? At least according to evopsych, a guy who simply lies down and accepts his incel fate will not pass his genes on. Being happy throughout incel is the deviant reaction, not the opposite. Outliers can’t tell regular people what to be happy about. And if you think about it, the definition of poor mental health as “acutely unhappy with being incel” serves the society, rather than the individual man. Society is feminist and any suggestion that a man might need sex is met with accusations of entitlement and narcissism. Therefore, you are unhealthy as long as you aren’t sacrificing your selfish needs for society.
Sometimes they make the argument that “If only society was more accepting of male virginity, this wouldn’t happen. Men are told they must fuck as many women as possible, it causes low self-esteem, and that is the cause of their suffering”. This might be a factor,I agree, but it totally sweeps the whole “sex=need” thing under the rug. Are they saying that if society was 100% accepting and encouraging of men who can’t get laid, they would be happy? I really, really doubt that…
Obs.
There are three tiers of public higher education in California. The top are the UCs. There are nine of those that take undergrads, plus a stand-alone medical school and law school in San Francisco. Then there is the Cal State system. I honestly don’t know how many there are, but a lot. Then the community colleges. There are a ton of those.
The UC system is the only that takes grad students and has professional schools (law, business, medicine, architecture, etc.). These are “research” universities. They’ve gotten very, very competitive, especially at the top.
Cal State grants bachelors’ degrees only, but they are (nominally) four year institutions (though most students these days take longer). There are one or (if you want to stretch it) two truly prestigious campuses in this system, the Cal Polys (or California Polytechnic), the better one being in San Luis Obispo. In fact, if you hear someone say “I went to Cal Poly” chances are he means SLO and not Pomona. SLO is another lovely town on the central coast, though not directly on the beach like UCSB, but close enough so that on any given day Avilla Beach a few miles away is crawling with co-eds.
The CCs grant two-year AA degrees plus some professional certs such as nursing. The CCs charge very little and have open enrollment; that is if you meet certain requirements, you can enroll. Beyond that floor, it’s not competitive.
So, that’s a long windup, but there aren’t really any prestige or academic factors that differentiate the CCs (unlike the Cal States and especially the UCs). Hence, the desirability factor is almost entirely driven by location. It costs just as much to attend a cool place on the coast as it does a dusty one in the Inland Empire. Now, LIVING expenses are surely different, which is why you get a lot of rich kids—perhaps not so smart or maybe just lazy—going to the cool CCs on the coast. Sounds like this kid’s father was working in the movies and making real coin, so he would have been not atypical for SBCC student.
That said, while the most sought after CCs are on the coasts (and SBCC would have to be top three if not THE best), Pasadena City is still in the upper tier of the system. It’s one of the older campuses, dating back to the 1920s (most of the CCs were built in the 60s and later). The facilities are great, especially the athletic facilities. Also, Pasadena is definitely one of the better spots in LA county, despite being quite far from the coast. There’s a big old money presence, lots of great architecture, a thriving restaurant and bar scene on Colorado Boulevard and environs. Nice campus + nice place to live = nice community college.
Random observation:
Watching his manifesto video I kept thinking it looked and sounded like the sort of thing that would be the opening scene of a Tarantio film. I kept waiting for the shock twist ending where a rogue garbage truck plows into his car.
Had a really long string thoughts but BBC is just now reporting this kid had been under treatment from an early age as a very high functioning Aspergers case.
My prediction: another case of a mentally disturbed person going berserk. Not qualitatively different from the Aurora or Sandyhook shooters.
PP: “Your comment about lack of touch goes along with my thoughts about how important community is, would you say some sort of physical attachment to community would have helped?”
I think it would. Humans are not meant to be atomic and asexual, I think we can probably handle one with some stress, but not both.
For all I complain about Chrisitan churches more or less setting up young men for failure, I have to admit they at LEAST build some sort of community to take the sting off. (Yeah, it’s a bit like cutting someone and then giving them a bandage, but that’s far better than cutting them and letting them bleed to death,)
#30 if I remember, Star Child said that everywhere was filled with guys who tried to pick up women, and women hated them, calling them creeps etc.
Like I said, women want to get rid of unsuccessful men, NOT teach them how to be successful.
Emma the Emo,
God bless you!
#51 thanks for that. That one comment restored my faith in the possibility of sexual empathy in women.
#49 You completely missed my point, and I am not at all surprised.
#55 “if I remember, Star Child said that everywhere was filled with guys who tried to pick up women, and women hated them, calling them creeps etc.”
You clearly do not remember.
#43 thanks
#59 is it worth quoting you about places filled with creeps? Is it worth quoting us making fun of you for not realizing we were right about your apex fallacy that “just be yourself” i.e. “just be a fun happy good-looking guy for whom women are easy” only applies to the few who are that way?
Practicallyperfect,
Community would probably help, as long as they don’t misunderstand him or add to his confusion. But I don’t know what a good community would be like. Anyone know?
#61 Nah. You’d just be wasting your time on a Saturday, and I don’t want that for your life.
All women, except maybe Emma, are going to spin this as
1. Well, then obviously he should have taken better care of his looks. Oh, he did body building and was into man-care products and dressing well?
2. Well, then obviously he should have tried to self improve his life. Oh, so he was into health food and doing well in college?
3. Well, then obviously he should had more exposure to people. Oh, so he hobnobbed with celebrities and had several good friends and was unusually active in social media (for a guy)?
4. Well, then obviously he should have taken better care of his loks etc
OTC #54
Thanks.
You’re right and I keep praying and trying to plant the idea in our church (and we are in an elite college town.) But there has got to be a way to come together outside of the church. I understand the fear of exposure, still this idea keeps nagging me.
#36 best comment so far. afaik, many men do pay prostitutes just for validation, not to drain.
Obsidian,
I think comments for this post need to be closed. At least until such time as a determination is made as to whether the shooter was a desperate incel or merely a lunatic triggered by being an incel.
Their are numerous and important issues being raised that don’t the taint of murderous rampage to be worthy of discussing. However, if this situation can be most easily explained as the act of a madman rather than the act of a desperate man it would behoove us to discuss those issues in terms of the desperate man and leave the madness to the mental health community.
@Emma,
Like.
Open for suggestions.
Not sure what you mean, PP. what idea?
Emma the Emo,
To answer your question about community, there’s a story about Abraham Lincoln’s early life. As a young man, while living in New Salem, he was engaged to Ann Rutledge. She died of typhoid fever and he became despondant. His neighbors took care to look in on him.
In the current culture, people are so isolated that what happened to Lincoln wouldn’t occur now.
The transcript
http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/05/24/video-allegedly-from-mass-killer-in-santa-barbara-if-i-cant-have-you-girls-ill-destroy-you-trigger-warning/
“Hi, Elliot Rodger here.
Well… this is my last video. It all has to come to this.
Tomorrow is the day of retribution. The day in which I will have my revenge against humanity. Against all of you.
For the last 8 years of my life, ever since I’ve hit puberty, I’ve been forced to endure an existence of loneliness, rejection, and unfulfilled desires. All because girls have never been attracted to me.
Girls gave their affection, and sex, and love, to other men but never to me.
I’m 22 years old and I’m still a virgin. I’ve never even kissed a girl.
I’ve been through college for two and a half years, more than that actually, and I’m still a virgin.
It has been very torturous.
College is the time when everyone experiences those things such as sex, and fun, and pleasure. But in those years I’ve had to rot in loneliness.
It’s not fair. You girls have never been attracted to me.
I don’t know why you girls aren’t attracted to me, but I will punish you all for it.
It’s an injustice, a crime, because I don’t know what you don’t see in me. I’m the perfect guy, and yet you throw yourselves at all these obnoxious men, instead of me, the supreme gentlemen.
I will punish all of you for it. (laughs)
On the day of retribution I am going to enter the hottest sorority house of UCSB… and I will slaughter every single spoiled, stuck-up, blonde slut I see inside there.
All those girls that I’ve desired so much, they would’ve all rejected me and looked down upon me as an inferior man if I ever made a sexual advance towards them while they throw themselves at these obnoxious brutes.
I will take great pleasure in slaughtering all of you.
You will finally see that I am in truth the superior one. The true alpha male. (laughs)
Yes, after I’ve annihilated every single girl in the sorority house, I’ll take to the streets of Isla Vista, and slay every single person I see there.
All those popular kids who live such lives of hedonistic pleasure while I’ve had to rot in loneliness for all these years, they’ve all looked down upon me every time I try to go out and join them. They’ve all treated me like a mouse.
Well now, I will be a God compared to you. You will all be animals. You are animals, and I will slaughter you like animals. I will be a God, exacting my retribution, on all those who deserve it.
And you do deserve it, just for the crime of living a better life than me.
All you popular kids. You’ve never accepted me, and now you’ll all pay for it.
And girls, all I’ve ever wanted was to love you, and to be loved by you. I’ve wanted a girlfriend, I’ve wanted sex, I’ve wanted love, affection, adoration, but you think I’m unworthy of it.
That’s a crime that can never be forgiven.
If I can’t have you, girls, I will destroy you. (laughs)
You denied me a happy life, and in turn, I will deny all of you life. (laughs) It’s only fair.
I hate all of you, humanity is a disgusting, wretched, depraved species. If I had it in my power, I would stop at nothing, to reduce every single one of you to mountains of skulls and rivers of blood, and rightfully so.
You deserve to be annihilated. And I’ll give that to you.
You never showed me any mercy, and so I will show you none. (laughs)
You force me to suffer all my life, and now I’ll make you all suffer.
I’ve waited a long time for this.
I’ll give you exactly what you deserve.”
FuzzieWuzzie,
That sounds good. It reduces misanthropy when people help you like that.
#67 “most easily explained as the act of a madman”
Yes, that is the most easy explanation.
@73
Madness also explains why he delivered the lines in his manifesto in the same manner and style, and with similar facial expression, as Meryl Streep delivered her lines in The Devil Wears Prada.
All good posts.
The question is, what does this mean for the Manosphere? Will people start rejecting our arguments because of mistaken ideas that we’re mad psychos? Will Men who express frustration with getting sex be looked upon with suspicion? Will participation in any Manosphere discussion that isn’t 100% nice to Women be grounds for firing?
Those things are what worry me very much.
The Manosphere has built something good, stating the truths that too many people in society are scared to admit. It has (partially) helped me become more of a self-starter, taking charge of my own life instead of waiting and watching as opportunities pass me by. I’d hate to see it all disappear in a puff of smoke.
Several thoughts, which I’lll break into separate comments.
First, I want to thank Ms. Emma for her testimony. She, more than anyone else, not just within the J4G community, not just within the larger Manosphere community, but within the Internet community at large period, knows more about the Incel phenomenon than the vast majority of us, especially those (Daily Kos, Manboobz, et al) who are some of the Manosphere’s biggest critics do. I will put her personal testimony ahead of ANYONE else’s, especially the aforementioned socalled critics, who don’t care one whit for Men…indeed, all they’ve shown is contempt and scorn, if not outright hate.
I would like to extend an invitation to Ms. Emma to write a bit on her personal experiences as a young lady who has as a mate, a former Incel Man and how she dealt with that, etc., for J4G. It’s a story and narrative that deserves to get it’s time in the Sun.
This is a veryy serious issue, which was one reason as to why I was Johnny-on-the-spot in putting it up; I understoodthat those who oppose what we stand for would attempt to tar and feather us with another “Misogyny” charge, and I knew our community would be sharp enough to blunt such trumped up “charges”.
Again, I thank Ms. Emma for her powerful testimony, and for possible pointing a way – not the only one by any means – but a way towards meaningfully resovling these issues.
O.
#75 “Will Men who express frustration with getting sex be looked upon with suspicion?”
Always. The single most anti-game thing any man can do, always, is tell a woman that women won’t give him sex. Conversely, and anathema as it is to all women to say so, the single greatest game thing any man can do, always, is to tell the woman that he’s not too thirsty because he’s already had hot sex that day with a woman that he just met.
Secondly, to CED’s questions:
I think this situation can actually be a huge boon to the Manosphere, IF we’re very smart and savvy about it. I mean afterall, if reports are to be beleived, Mr. Rodgers was a member of the website PUAHate – which is hardly a friend to the sphere proper. And we know that Game can save lives. The Daily Kos is hard at work trying to hitch Mr. Rodgers to the Manosphere wagon, but all we need do is ask:
What major Manosphere “power” has hosted Mr. Rodgers and cottoned to his views? The Spearhead? A Voice For Men? Return of Kings? RooshV’ Forums? Who? It seems that, at best, Mr. Rodgers was associated with fringe or outlier Manosphere outfits. As for RSD – the Pickup outfit founded by Tyler Durden and Papa-how would we explain Mr. Rodgers’ involvement with PUAHate? Was he a member of both simultaneuously? How would that make sense?
I think the Manosphere has the potential to coome out of this smelling like a rose, again, IF we’re smart and savvy about it.
O.
@JF12 77:
Boom.
Fake it till you make it, is Real…
O.
“#49 You completely missed my point, and I am not at all surprised.”
Hahaha, you just proved my point.
Benjamin Franklin wrote of the “positive, assuming manner which seldom fails to disgust.” Now we already know history isn’t your strong point, but you might identify with it. (Enlightening reference: http://www.crimeandfederalism.com/2011/08/benjamin-franklin-on-the-socratic-method-and-nlp.html)
@ Obsidian
Thanks. This community is too important to not defend.
@ Obsidian #15,
“He is self-delusional and massively entitled, but exposing him to game may have saved lives. A lot of lonely beta males will identify with him.
I thought of Kimmel’s expression of “aggrieved entitlement” when listening to Rodger’s video. I have until now objected to that expression, because Kimmel seems to belittle the real losses that his subjects have suffered. But it fits in this case. Rodgers seems like a spoiled brat loser.
I wonder how much of his actions are due not to the sexual dynamics in particular, but to the way we raise our kids to think they are all special and wonderful and that they always deserve the best. Few children are raised to expect that life is hard sometimes and you have to suck it up and keep going. That perhaps is the source of Rodger’s entitlement. Without that entitlement he may still have been incel, just not a murderous incel.
Third: Ms. Practically Perfect is hugely important to the discussion, not because of her direct role in all of this – she’s an older lady with a hubbie of her own and grown kids, most notably at least one adult daughter – but because of her *indirect role* as what we would call in the hood “Big Mama” role. As an older Woman who has succeeded in navigating the mating game, she can be instrumental in guiding younger ladies in these matters – and combining that with Ms. Emma’s personal testimony may give us more clues and tools with which to meaningfully address the Incel problem.
However – Ms. PP faces a significant challenge: the modern Church environment seems not to be all that amenable to the ideas and approaches Ms. PP is in favor of; they certainly don’t seem sympathetic to the Incel problem. Therefore, the question becomes what, if any, independent action can or would Ms. PP take in this regard? She has gone on record here in the forum as to how receptive many younger ladies are to her discussions on Red Pill matters from her perspective as a mother and wife; recall Ms. Bloom giving a similar report with her discussions with her lady friends and colleagues, her eager they were too hear more of what she had gleaned from her direct interaction here at J4G.
So, if Ms. PP and Ms. Bloom’s personal accounts are anything to go by, there ARE ladies out there who WANT to hear more about the Red Pill perspective on these questions. We should discuss ways in which these ladies can effectively address these concerns and how we can support them.
Comments?
O.
CED,
“The question is, what does this mean for the Manosphere?”
I commented at Alpha Game that the media syllogism will be “a guy who was bad with women and specifically renounced getting any better with them killed some people, so it must be the fault of people who actually teach guys to be better with women.”
Let’s widen it though, because the media will – anyone teaching male-focused self-improvement is going to be suspect, not just whatever can be framed as the “manosphere.” Any dating coach, life coach or whatever who isn’t totally cleared by the blue-pill femperative MSM illuminati will be framed as a puppet master of dangerous psychopaths.
#84 the end-Game is to remove all men, except Naturals, from the right to consort with women.
@Badger:
Correct – which is why my personal appproach, and I am pleased to say this seems to be the overall J4G approach, is too have a debate with those who oppose us on the efficacy Game – not on “snake oil salesman” grounds, but rather “first principle” ones (thanks, Nem!). This is how and why I approached the matter in the way I did with Ms. Shepard over on the “Talking Your Book” thread – I simply laiid out the logic of Sexual Selection, which is the basis of Game itself, is it not? If Game doesn’t work, then neither does Sexual Selection; if Game does work, it is because Sexual Selection also works.
So, the opposing side would have to ask – which is it? Either Sexual Selection works, or it doesn’t.
And on we go from there.
I have always held the view that Game, properly presented, will roundly and soundly defeat any argument thrown up against it.
All it takes is patience, knowledge of first principles, and a willingness to engage the opposition.
Bring.
It.
On.
O.
@JF12 85:
Correct – the trick for us is to get the opposition to openly admit this – hence the Socratic Method…
O.
@Ciaran 82:
Yes, it would apppear that Kimmel may indeed be onto something, but not in the manner he would like to believe; as you point out,, this seems to be an issue that is not unique to Men, but rather to the culture at large – which in itself is interesting, since the opposition puts such hugge stock and focus on “culture” as the causal agent that explains everything.
It will be interesting to see what, if anything, the oppposition will do to address the culture on this score…
O.
Obsidian,
Thank you for the invitation
I could write about something, but what exactly do you want me to write?
@82
Of course you think he’s a spoiled brat loser after all he has the white male privilege which means nothing bad ever happens, and if it does it’s his fault for being a loser despite his inherent advantages.
Now I believe we will find out his mental issues are the primary factor, and it wouldn’t matter if it was Twinkies, pussy, or a talking dog that triggered him. But….
Being he’s a spoiled brat loser he never had a chance getting a sympathetic ear about his failures with women. Any expression of frustration or loneliness would be dismissed as being a whiny spoiled brat loser. Or he’d be met with laughter or outright scorn and derision. Perhaps had he talked to. girl about this he’d have received the excellent advice to just be himself and double down on being nice because all girls love the perfect gentleman.
So far it appears he was more than a little aspy in which case the contradictions of FI programming and witnessing PUA/game succeed would have truly overwhelming. Add in the fact that on paper he had all the advantages money, BMW, Hollywood connections, does a hell of a Meryl Streep impersonation, not disfigured and what other conclusions could he have reached except for this? If not for the mental health issues he’d probably have just suicided.
I can think of one mass murderer in the last 20 years who not completely of his noodle. One. The rest have all been varying degrees of crazed.
Why hasn’t anyone seen the obvious parallels between the equally psychopathic David Berkowitz (“Son of Sam”) and this guy? Only differences: Berkowitz was poor and this guy pampered; and this guy had the Internet to spew on. Berkowitz couldn’t post his manifestos on-line, he had to leave crudely written screeds. None of the “popular” websites has mentioned it that I’ve seen.
You will be pleased to note that there is significant pushback on the Daily Kos site by some more perceptive commenters who figured this guy was not an MRA and, if not that far, emphasize that he was in fact nuts (his parents had tried to find treatment for him).
I was away on travel this week, so it was quite… I don’t know, if there was a good way to merge shocking and interesting. Shockteresting.
It’s been a long while, and though I had planned to say, “hey” once in a while, I just never did so. Part of the problem was that I just didn’t want to spend any more time thinking about this stuff. Why? Because even with all the knowledge available and being shared in the manosphere, when I reconcile these ideas in my own mental database, it just ends up breeding more frustration.
Before I say anything else, let me be crystal clear: I DO NOT condone the actions taken by Mr. Rodgers. Is that understood? Let me say it again, I DO NOT condone his actions.
So, let’s get to the part of the matter that is most relevant to an awesome community such as this – the sexual frustration / older virgin part.
As some of you may vaguely remember, I’m a former 25 year old virgin. And, watching this guy’s video earlier, I felt “that very human chill” that the narrator said of Xerxes in 300, when the spear cut his face. It was like if I were a young, Greek male, 20-something virgin, and forced to watch, “My Big Fat Greek Wedding” and “40 Year Old Virgin” back to back. With my parents.
* I hate to say: it’s not surprising to ME in the least at his change into the Darth Vader of unrequited desire. His major malfunction was that he elected to do serious harm to others. Unlike him, I was more self destructive. It took a stupid DWI to sort of scare me straight. If I ever would have had designs on “payback”, oddly enough, it would have been on guys who crossed me. However, I did wonder: what if I had the power to make everything opposite. To force upon all the guys who had it so easy, the anguish that we dealt with. Had I more money than brains, I would’ve turned that fantasy into an indy flick. In my bizarro world, the formerly rejected would be the desired, and would get to enjoy rejecting the women who previously shot them down.
* Like this individual, I was consumed with the whole spectrum of anger, frustration, despair, and even disillusionment. In myself, this peaked at around age 23, right after I had pretty much gone through school and realized, like he did, “wait, wasn’t I supposed to have more experiences??” Of course, it’s supposed to be about “school”, but true sexual education is vital to one’s health and welfare as an adult.
* I think he appeared younger than his age and his physical attributes didn’t help, either. Same problem with me, albeit I was an inch taller and 10 lb heavier. Unfortunately, none of us have control over genetics and this is a true kick in the balls for any man – to be thought of as merely a “kid”. At the same time, it’s also insulting when people expect you to behave like a young guy only because you look like one. But when women have just that thought in their mind, and you happen to think 40 instead of act 20, like they want, then YOU get deemed boring instead of interesting.
* On prostitutes: I’m going to share something that the average person just won’t understand too well. When you’re constantly rejected, lacking any experience, and yet you can see quite clearly that you are not by any means worse than what you’re being rejected for, then it becomes a personal challenge to obtain sex without the ignominy of having to pay for something which you know, in your heart of hearts, you ought to have for free.
* I hate when the “entitlement” thing gets bandied about. Granted, this could be, perhaps, a more globally relevant term in this guy’s case for myriad other reasons, but I argue that it doesn’t apply in the case of him getting mates. Bad pun intended, but to the layperson, when someone claims they “deserve”, the reaction is that said someone is clamoring for something they haven’t earned. I say, “not necessarily.”
Probably like I was, he got rejected on various occasions because he wasn’t “this” or “that”. It doesn’t matter what his means were, he may have attempted to address “this” or “that”. More than likely, he followed the same bullshit advice that most idiots tell us. So then he addresses that, but then gets rejected more.
* This doesn’t get easier to handle for men as they hit 20. You get shit on by women and men alike. I think it’s easier to ignore the men, and I can only guess that he once got humiliated publicly by a woman, like I did. That whole thing about how women don’t want someone else that nobody wants, yet no woman wants to help solve the problem, either.
* If his father is a director, then maybe this explains his ease in front of the camera. Much unlike him, I could not coherently stream a manifesto in one take. Not on paper, and sure as shit not in a video. I’d need 100’s of edits and retakes. Additionally, I’m not a smooth talker and never will be one, so even I’m a little surprised that he couldn’t get any attention.
* When you’re an older virgin, the elephant in the room is also the monkey on your back. I gather that he had to rationalize the same things that I did. He mentioned his material things. But it isn’t about bragging. It’s about getting the truth out. Like I did, I had been trying to ask, “how the fuck am I not interesting to you? Aren’t you at all curious about who/what/when/where/why/how?” But, nothing happens, and in your personal AND professional life, you start getting questions: “How is it that you have all this, you have this great job, you look youthful, etc, and you don’t have a girlfriend? What’s wrong with YOU?” As if it wasn’t already bad enough to get called out for that by young women.
* When the incessant questions about your lack of success with women begin to invade whatever “safe zones” you’ve created, then you might start seeing red.
* When I finally got the monkey of virginity off my back, it was probably the most elated week I’ve spent on this earth. No, it did not make everything all right and erase what happened previously, but it removed what I can only describe as a psychological cancer. There are scars, and I’ll admit, I’ll go to the grave with a chip on my shoulder about it, but I am a survivor.
Obsidian,
It might be useful if a thumbnail sketch of what happened in this corner of the internet in the wake of George Soldini’s murders. I wasn’t around for that. The only word on it that I’ve seen is in one of Karen Straughan’s videos. She might have been referring to reddit. What I remember about what she said is that opponents quote mined to make it look as bad as possible when most of the diologue was about how to prevent these things from happening.
@Fuzzie:
Excellent suggestion! The following is coverage obtaining on the Sodini affair, courtesy or Roissy/Heartiste:
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/08/05/game-can-save-lives/
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/08/06/george-sodini-was-at-a-seduction-seminar/
https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/01/12/shades-of-george-sodini/
https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/01/12/shades-of-george-sodini/
O.
@Fuzzie:
Here’s the RooshV forum discussing the George Sodini affair:
http://www.rooshvforum.com/archive/index.php?thread-14939.html
O.
@Fuzzie:
The Spearhead featured a piece by a bud of mine by name of Chuck Ross of GLP fame, about four years back:
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/04/13/alpha-dreams-and-beta-genes-male-sexual-entitlement/
O.
Please, folks, if you want to make a telling comment, check the spelling of the guy’s name. Otherwise, you just look like another yob.
Candadian Feminist Ms. Anne Theriault has written about the Elliot Rodgers affair:
http://bellejar.ca/2014/05/24/elliot-rodger-and-men-who-hate-women/
Seems to be cut from the same cloth as the Daily Kos piece.
I’ve contacted Ms. Theriault again via Twitter, iinformed her of our discussion on the matter and have invited to join us. We’ll see what happens…
O.
@Marya:
Don’t you think a minor mispelling of Mr. Rodgers’ name is miniscule in the light of the issue being discussed?
And what does it say about you that you would focus on such a minor detail, without actually discussing the issue at hand?
Madam?
O.
Anyway, going back to our Manosphere-and-beyond coverage of the Elliot Rodgers affair:
I’ve just Googled to see if AFVM has covered, haven’t turned up anything yet; they’ll probably get on it tomorrow.
Meanwhile, Mr. W.F. Price over at the Spearhead is on it:
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2014/05/24/pua-hater-identified-as-uc-santa-barbara-gunman/
O.
The 24/7 news wire feed service solely dedicated to Men’s Issues, Manosphere.com, has full coverage of the Elliot Rodgers situation, including our current post:
http://www.manosphere.com/
O.
Tuthmosis at the RooshVForum is referring to this as the “PUAHate killings.” That’s pretty brilliant pre-framing.
Forbes.com staff writer Ms. Kashmir Hill has up a thoughtul piece on the Elliot Rodgers situation:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2014/05/24/the-disturbing-internet-footprint-of-santa-barbara-shooter-elliot-rodger/
O.
@Badger:
Hmm! Provocative, indeed.
Care to post a link – just for the record, because, Streets Is Watchin’? Thanks!
O.
@Lowbrasss 92:
Hey Man! Glad to see ya back, although I have to say, I wish it were under better circumstances in light of this Elliot Rodgers business.
Thanks for your very insightful, thoughtful and poginant comment. It adds to the current discussion mightily.
O.
Ms. Elizabeth Park over at Policy Mic has up a post:
http://www.policymic.com/articles/89905/what-elliot-rodger-said-about-women-reveals-why-we-need-to-stamp-out-misogyny
I’ve contacted Ms. Parkk via Twitter and have informed her of the J4G presence and take on the matter; we’ll see what happens….
O.
You are not going to come out of it smelling “like roses,” sorry. This man was one of you:
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2014/05/24/shooting-suspect-elliot-rodgers-misogynistic-posts-point-to-motive/
It is time you faced the fact that spreading misogyny, which is what you do, has dire consequences. I know you will not post this comment, since you do not want to hear its message. If you do, it’s not hard to predict how your like-minded regulars will react.
But that’s beside the point, which is that by promoting misogynist attitudes you, as the rest of of the misogynist manosphere, are indirectly responsible for such atrocities.
You reap what you sow. Own it now.
It’s easy for feminists to attack the manosphere and paint it as a violent misogynistic movement from where they are sitting, but they argue with false premises.
1. Both movements don’t require membership cards to get in. Anyone can join, become violent, and smear the movement.
2. Feminists have the opportunity to sit on their ass, use state violence (or state’s indifference) to attack their ideological enemies and guys who make lame penis jokes, and claim they are totally non-violent. And of course, violence is totally ok as long as someone else does it for you.
3. Manosphere is a “rebel” movement. It has no institutionalized power, and unsurprisingly attracts frustrated men whose problems are in some way related to modern feminism, and offers them explanations and support. They just have very few other places to go anymore. Most of these manosphere men will find the road to self-improvement or a worthy cause to commit themselves to. But some will be hopeless, too damaged or weak. Attacking the manosphere for its angry men is like wondering why there are so many people with broken bones in the hospital.
Here is the Wikipedia entry on the matter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Isla_Vista_shootings
What stands out to me is the following:
His pop was an assistant director for the Hunger Games(!))
His mom is an actress of some repute
He was diagnosed as a high-functioning Aspergers’ sufferer (HUGE, since that is one of the main hobby horses of the anti-Manosphere crowd – looking at you, Ms. J 2.0)
I think we’re going to need to take this into account in our analysis and response.
Comments?
O.
@Bud 107:
Quite the contrary; as you can clearly see, your comment is not only up, but I welcome anything else you have to add – on the proviso that you engage me, and me alone, in conversation.
Fair enough?
O.
Bud, you could not be more wrong if you tried.
Misogyny is the modern-day bogey man of leftist politics. The subject of the morning’s two-minute hate.
Are there people spreading hate? Sure. I don’t care about them. This kid thought that Game was bullshit, and decided that women needed to die for not being attracted to him.
He bought the feminized society lies about what women want. The manosphere contradicted those lies, but he couldn’t let the lies go because they were too much a part of his identity.
Unable to reconcile the truth with what he’d been living, he snapped. He lashed out against the one group of people he thought were responsible — the women that shunned him.
But it was always in his power to change.
@Ms. Emma:
In response to your question: I think your take on all of this, as someone who actually has a mate who was an Incel, is immensely important. To that end, anything you wish to write about and add, is purely up to you. If you like you can take your comments in this thread to use as a basis, etc. It’s up to you. The J4G floor is yours!
Please contact me at theobsidianfiles@hotmail.com when you’re ready to roll – perhaps I should suggest that, given the fast moving nature of the matter, that sooner would be better than later, agreed?
Thanks again – and please tell Arpie I said hi!
O.
@Bud 107:
The SPLC has been thoroughly discredited in its efforts to tar and feather the Manosphere as a “hate movement”, to such an extent, that even manjor mainstream news organizations don’t take them seriously anymore. Nice try, though.
Now, if you’re serious, like I said, we can have a rational and calm discussion on the issues you bring to the table in goood faith – starting with your claim that we here at J4G are “misogynists”. In that I am one of the Founding Fathers of J4G, I take such a charge and claim seriously, and as a result woould require you to present proof to support your assertions.
I’m waiting…
O.
This was an image from the dude’s twitter:
http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article3602460.ece/alternates/s615/Elliot-Rodger.jpg
Dude was certainly versed in some manosphere theories…
Source:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/california-shooting-three-bodies-removed-3603730
The International Business Times has the coomplete 140 page manifesto Rodger wrote prior to his alleged deeds:
http://www.ibtimes.com/read-elliot-rodgers-140-page-memoir-manifesto-he-wrote-prior-his-shooting-university-1589868
O.
Obsidian,
Ok
And he says hi back
L.
O.
L.
From his 140 page “manifesto.”
http://i.imgur.com/fl3VdsFl.jpg?1
The acts of Eillot Rodgers are to be despised to no end. Regardless of the lack of love one might be enduring, there is no reason to kill to solve that issue. However, I can’t somewhat relate to his plight. As an Incel, I’ve often ask the same questions as Rodgers did throughout his ranting YouTube videos, seeking rhyme and reason for my situation, and how must I move forward. It is why I’ve sought guidance and insight from sites like Just For Guys, Rational Male and others; to give me perspective.
#118 — well said.
But that’s beside the point, which is that by promoting misogynist attitudes you, as the rest of of the misogynist manosphere, are indirectly responsible for such atrocities.
Oh….
Misogynist seems to be a favorite word here.
It is time you faced the fact that spreading misogyny, which is what you do, has dire consequences
I wonder if feminists will own up to the damage that they have done.
The messed up children…
The children that will never be born because of their evil…
The men that have been screwed..
The unhappy and unfulfilled women that they have left in their wake…
Will the mea culpa come soon?
Farm Boy,
You’ve been away too long. Missed you and your two line zingers.
Could be relevant: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor/201208/james-holmes-mental-illness-or-social-frustration
Also, hopefully some of his puahate stuff is on archive.org.
One of the things that has haunted me from seeing his last video, is that he had no idea of what he was doing to get rejected.
Could all of this have been avoided if he sought out the services of a one-on-one dating coach?
@Nem:
In that you’re the resident tech guy of the J4G family, would it be possible too go into this archive.org and dig out some of Mr. Rodger’s PUAHate writings and post them up here? That would be most helpful. Thanks!
O.
@Fuzzie 125:
Not only am I of the view that had he had proper one to one instruction Mr. Rodger would be in a completely different space today, but we see living proof of that in Ms. Emma’s Man, Arpagus, as per upthread. I was able to assist him with the most rudimentary information regarding Game which DID work. That set the stage for him meeting Ms. Emma; indeed, I highly doubt it would have happened otherwise. She may disagree and I welcome said disagreement if that is her position.
O.
Do you think this guy may have resided at places like RooshV? One has to give that some thought, since that place is full of trolls who pretend to live better lives than they actually do. Much like young Mr Rodgers did.
You start to wonder when some of these guys will start to snap trying to paint themselves as “Alphas” who really look pretty beta-ish with nothing to offer women, yet much like their counterparts at Jezebel, believe that they should be given more than they are worth.
There is really NO way the “manosphere” comes out smelling like some sweet cologne after this. Mr Rodgers is no different than Johnny Fang (“Tuthmosis”) or Doosh (Daryush V), really. They are actually quite alike, really in that they have nothing to show for their lives work other than way too much time on the internet and being socially awkward and putting up a facade about being better with women than they ever can hope to be.
Quite an accomplishment.
@JS:
I dont follow how you can equate Mr. Rodger and Roosh(!); by an objective standard, they are quite different people. Regardless of what you or anyone else may think of the lattter, he is an internationally known self-published author of at least half a dozen wildly popular books; has and to continues to live abroad; has had at least some mating success, which is hand over fist better than anything Mr. Rodger has achieved by his own admission(!),and runs two wildy popular websites.
II’m just not getting your comparison; on what basis do you make it?
O.
Fuzzie,
I have been busy lately. Now things are slowing down. I am thinking about writing a guest post of two. J4G, I will send you an email of what I have in mind.
Obsidian, your work did help. I just asked
When you stepped in, he was already incel for years, and was close to giving up. But going out and getting the “Fool’s Mate” broke the dry spell and made everything better for a while. Long enough to meet a new girl.
Farm Boy,
Then, all is good with you. I was worried that you got mad and left.
This thread and the original post are doing a far superior job of handling this story than the mainstream news would ever do.
It does seem as if the feminist oriented sites would rather sling mud than offer content or thought.
Fuzzie,
I just have a career that gets very demanding at times. One that pays well, and with prestige. If only there was worthwhile modern woman…
@Fuzzie 132:
Precisely–and now you have a glimpse of where J4G is headed in the near future…
O.
I wonder if feminism should apologize for this, or should we be happy instead?
http://theothermccain.com/2014/05/23/the-darwinian-dead-end-feminists-subtract-themselves-from-the-future/
@Ms. Emma 131:
Thank you! Damn it feels good to see people up on it.
While we’re on the topic, just let me add the following:
When Arpie came back into the old Roissy forum to give his field report of the night’s events, the other guys savaged him for the looks of the gal he got with – something that deeply angered me, and here we go back to the point you and Ms. Stephanie made yesterday on the Talking Your Book thread. You’re both right to point out that a lot of Manosphere blogs and forums put a heavy focus on female physical appearance, and much of it is derisive. That’s not to say that some of it isn’t legitimate or warranted, but Roissy fostered an evironment of gratuitous meanspiriteness that was a real turnoff to me, especially after the way they treated Arpie. I have always felt that it is not my place to “judge” another Man for what makes his nature rise; my job is to help achieve his desires, period. If he wants my opinion in that regard, he got a mouth and knows how to ask; and to which my response will be, if she works for you, she works for me.
Would it surprise you that men and Arpie were perhaps a literal handful of guys routinely posting up field reports over at Roissy’s? And from what I can see in the comments these days, sadly, not much has changed.
And I’m very pleased that he lucked with a crimson-haired lass such as yourself!
O.
@Farm Boy:
By all means we welcome any guest posts you may wish ttowrite! Get at me at theobsidianfiles@hotmail.com and let’s talk!
O.
“Care to post a link – just for the record”
Roger.
http://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-36421.html
Obsidian,
It’s been my contention that the internet will prove to be as powerful a force in culture as Herr Gutenberg’s twenty six soldiers of lead.
Farm Boy,
To echo the spinster’s lament “all the good ones are taken”. The good ones are proven by being taken. We have to live in hope that there are potential good ones out there.
Gurney Halleck,
“This was an image from the dude’s twitter”
Wow, the left and center photos look like keen copies of an image Susan Walsh made for her site many years ago.
(Does that mean her SMP analyses are to be implicated in all of this??)
“Mr Rodgers is no different than Johnny Fang (“Tuthmosis”)”
“Just sayin” (aside from having a really silly handle) is probably a troll from PUAHate. The “Johnny Fang=Tuthmosis” thing is a false rumor that was circulated on a PUAHate thread, a conclusion they came to because a Colombian guy named Johnny Fang had commented on a Facebook post that linked to a ROK post by Tuthmosis.
(Covered and debunked here: http://www.rooshvforum.com/archive/index.php?thread-33711.html)
Notice also, two trolly commenters both using the same “no way the Manosphere comes out smelling sweet” metaphor. That’s a sign of either a (low-talent) sockpuppet operation or a counter-community sending talking points out.
@Badger:
Excellent points – it’s interesting to see the PUAHaters scrambling for cover, isn’t it?
LOL
O.
If there are any commenters from PUAhate lurking, it would be good to have the benefit of your input but, please don’t troll. I think most of us will be straight with you if, you’re straight with us.
#110 Fair enough, although I’m not sure I’m interested in giving you an extra opportunity to whitewash your responsibility. If you are hoping to somehow spin this story to your advantage, as you indicate throughout this thread, you are sorely mistaken, reassurances from your regulars notwithstanding. Reasonable people who are familiar with your site, a category which includes men without a sense of aggrieved entitlement, can see clearly how the views you espouse dovetail with those of Elliot Rodger’s.
This is a fragment from Rodger’s “manifesto:”
“The ultimate evil behind sexuality is the human female. They are the main instigators of sex. They control which men get it and which men don’t.
Women are flawed creatures, and my mistreatment at their hands has made me realize this sad truth. There is something very twisted and wrong with the way their brains are wired. They think like beasts, and in truth, they
are beasts.
Women are incapable of having morals or thinking rationally. They are completely controlled by their depraved emotions and vile sexual impulses. Because of this, the men who do get to experience the pleasures of sex and the privilege of breeding are the men who women are sexually attracted to… the stupid, degenerate , obnoxious men. I have observed this all my life. The most beautiful of women choose to mate with the most brutal of men, instead of magnificent gentlemen like myself.
Women should not have the right to choose who to mate and breed with. That decision should be made for them by rational men of intelligence. If women continue to have rights, they will only hinder the advancement of the human race by breeding with degenerate men and creating stupid, degenerate offspring. This will cause humanity to become even more depraved with each generation. Women have more power in human society than they deserve, all because of sex. There is no creature more evil and depraved than the human female.
Women are like a plague. They don’t deserve to have any rights. Their wickedness must be contained in order prevent future generations from falling to degeneracy. Women are vicious, evil, barbaric animals, and they need to be treated as such.”
http://www.scribd.com/doc/225936731/Untitled
There are numerous posts and comments on this site alone that echo these very sentiments, or, more accurately perhaps, could serve, and maybe did, as an inspiration for them as they have preceded Rodger’s. If you are honest enough, you’ll admit as much and won’t make me go through the tiresome task of gathering appropriate quotes, which can be found in almost every post on this site and certainly always in the comments. To your “credit,” you are not unique in your misogyny, since the manosphere is almost nothing but.
Own it. Examine it. The world’s looking at you and you are seen for what you are: bitter, angry, and often violent misogynists, just like Rodger, even though you personally may not have murdered anyone. But while you did not kill these innocent people in Santa Barbara, you’ve as much as weaponized the man who did with your hateful ideology. It is up to you whether you’ll take this call to responsibility as seriously as it deserves it, or will continue to peddle and encourage hate. Your call.
This site has acquitted itself very well today. The only site I’ve seen cover this with more fairness or nuance is arguably, Forbes.
Good job, Obsedian.
To echo the spinster’s lament “all the good ones are taken”.
That always struck me as a bunch of baloney. In modern times, there are more quality men than women. Women debase themselves early and often, and learn little in useful skills. Guys still are guys (mostly), making a career and conquering the world (or at least doing something useful in it).
So what is the relative ratio of “good ones” across the genders?
I’m not sure I’m interested in giving you an extra opportunity to whitewash your responsibility.
Is that you, God?
Fuzzie Wuzzie 125:
“Could all of this have been avoided if he sought out the services of a one-on-one dating coach?”
I just want to offer an opinion here, as an actual dating coach who works with a lot of guys at the beginner/ newbie level.
The answer is maybe (anything is possible)… but probably not.
A dating coach (if he’s effective) is basically a guy to kick you in the ass to stop making excuses, give you some basic advice and feedback (on convo skills, body language, etc), and encourage you to be your best.
What this guy needed was not a dating coach, but rather a professional therapist and probably medication.
The fact is, this man was deranged. If we say that Elliot’s lack of success with women was the primary reason (as opposed to just a convenient excuse to live out a violent fantasy), then we are implying that all the thousands of men who are NORMAL and balanced, but bad with girls, are also just one more rejection away from shooting up a mall. That’s a slippery slope and absurd. (Well, at least I have more faith in humanity than that.)
I am a guy who lives in the real world, dealing with real guys and real women on a daily basis. And I am the first to say I am not all-powerful. Some people simply cannot be helped. It seems to be only keyboard jockeys and armchair philosophers who think that “game” is all-powerful.
Dating coaching is for normal, emotionally balanced men who happen to have had bad luck with the ladies, for one reason or another. It is not a replacement for mental health counseling or professional medical attention.
If somehow Elliot had been able to bang one or two girls, that would not affect the chemical imbalances in his brain. Instead of killing strangers, he would become an abusive boyfriend and/or kill a girlfriend. Or he would have shot up his place of work the day after his boss yelled at him.
There are plenty of examples of mentally ill killers, who had managed to get laid at least once.
@Bud 145:
Excellent! I’m glad you have agreed to the terms of our discussion.
You have laidout some pretty impressive arguments! Alright then – I ask, what evidence do you have, written by my own hand, that I cotton to the same kinds of views of Women, as per the extensive quotes by Mr. Rodger? We have a search engine here in the forum, which will give you access to our archive. By all means, feel free to make use of it, again, focusing on my writings, and please, quote me directly, where I’ve said the vile thinggs about the ladies that Mr. Rodger has?
Your response?
O.
#115 boy, that was boring. He actually took the time to detail the emotions he felt while encountering problems from trying to reinstall WoW after uninstalling it because he figured he was wasting too much time on it.
So, anyway, he killed more men than women.
The world’s looking at you and you are seen for what you are: bitter, angry, and often violent misogynists
“Often Violent” he says. Really?
Or is this a just a generalization flowing from increased blood pressure?
Farm Boy,
I do remember a certain “yenta” who said that most of the requests were from men looking for women. It’s hard out there. Communication with commenter Bloom has given me some reason to hope.
Introverted Playboy,
Thanks for the answer. I am beginning to see it your way. Chalk it up to my naivete’.
Bud,
Mark Twain said that patriotism was the last refuge of a scoundrel. Were he around today, he might be saying something about misogeny being the refuge of feminists in the absence of substance.
So, anyway, he killed more men than women.
That was very misandric of him.
I suppose that the manosphere is responsible here also due to the misandry that they spout.
I like it when feminists and other haters of the manosphere insist everyone is totally responsible for their own personal actions, and then insist they are not.
On one side, they’ll pour their rage over anyone who suggests that women’s behavior could have contributed to beta male rampage. On the other side, they’ll hold manosphere writers responsible for a beta male rampage, because he read them.
On one side, they’ll deny that women might be encouraging jerkdom by going for jerks. On the other side, one of them said about me “I want to hit her upside the head. She’s encouraging bad behavior by fucking an angry incel!”
Just to be clear, I AM for holding individuals responsible for their actions, whether they were influenced by society or not.
@145
There are numerous posts and comments on this site alone that echo these very sentiments, or, more accurately perhaps, could serve, and maybe did, as an inspiration for them as they have preceded Rodger’s. If you are honest enough, you’ll admit as much and won’t make me go through the tiresome task of gathering appropriate quotes, which can be found in almost every post on this site and certainly always in the comments.
I’m not as gracious as Obsidian, so yeah – I’m going to “make you go through the tiresome task” of providing some examples to back up the BS that you’re spouting. Put up or shut up, pal.
they’ll pour their rage
They do seem to enjoy their rage, do they not?
Emma the Emo,
“I want to hit her upside the head. She’s encouraging bad behavior by f*cking an angry incel!”
I had to laugh at the convoluted reasoning that led to this staement. By taking the action that you did, he’s no longer an incel and the cause for the anger is moot.
The author of that statement would prefer that he be miserable. That’s cruel.
The four most recent j4g posts are
4. Ferrum saying “be proud of your lack of success with women, if that’s who you are”
3. Escoffier reminding us that the discerning man ought to appreciate a good cozy read about girls’ social interior lives.
2. IFLP complaining that black women exert mate choices in self-defeating ways, thereby driving black men to solace in non-black women arms, or something.
1. Morpheus talking about people who say their qualities just happen to be exactly what some other person should want, by some magic coincidence.
they’ll hold manosphere writers responsible for a beta male rampage, because he read them.
Perhaps we should hold WoW responsible. After all, it is full of violence.
As for the Manosphere; the sites that I visit, violence is the furthest thing from people’s minds.
Interesting quote by W. F. Price here:
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2014/05/24/pua-hater-identified-as-uc-santa-barbara-gunman/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed:+TheSpearhead+%28The+Spearhead%29#comment-218952
“BTW, one thing that gets me is that the feminists are really up in arms over this incident, when the truth is that men kill women over sexual anger/frustration all the time in this country. It’s probably the single biggest motive in male-on-female violence, and it doesn’t have anything to do with MRAs 99.9%+ of the time. ”
Can’t vouch for correctness of the statistic, but essentially I agree. Even if manosphere didn’t exist, and MRAs didn’t exist, violent incels would still be around. It’s what I would call a dark side of male nature. Both sexes have them (and humans in general have them).
Anyone see any feminists mentioning that his Rodgers had an unstable home life, child of divorce, and was raised to be prissy by his mom?
158: Lol, they do, you can hardly reason with them when it happens.
159: Yes. What was I encouraging anyway? Men talking about their feelings online?…
Anyone see the fallacy in this group of statements?
1. Somebody did something bad.
2. Also, I think you’re bad.
3. Therefore, you and somebody are exactly alike.
peddle and encourage hate.
Important issues get discussed in sites like this. Many very intelligent people are trying to sort out the modern day problems in the SMP / MMP. Just because some of the resulting conclusions make some people uncomfortable, does not make them “hate”.
Lately, “hate” has become the lazy man’s go-to weapon to try to shut down an argument. That weapon does not work here.
Anyone see the fallacy in this group of statements?
1. Somebody did something bad.
2. Also, I think you’re bad.
3. Therefore, you and somebody are exactly alike.
There is no fallacy there. This type of reasoning is taught in American universities, and they are the envy of the world, I will have you know.
you can hardly reason with them when it happens
For them it is a twofer, as they get to feel all morally superior and stuff, and they get add excitement to their lives.
And they may even post their outrageous outrage on Facebook, and get some validation as part of the bargain.
Anyone see any feminists mentioning that his Rodgers had an unstable home life, child of divorce, and was raised to be prissy by his mom?
Where did that come from? That is not part of the approved narrative, so that did not happen.
@ Obsidian
Will do. I’ll get into it tomorrow.
Jf12 at 165,
You couldn’t sell that line of reasoning to a five year old.
Good grief! What are we coming to?
I should also make it clear that I do not believe Elliot Rodgers is in any way representative of PUAhate, or that his actions should impact negatively on puahate. However, seeing as he is already being used to negatively tar PUA and even the Men’s Rights Movement (???) and the manosphere as a whole, I find it necessary to dig up his puahate posts to set the record straight.
Also, I commend the Forbes author for her excellent sober and rational take on this.
(Throws dishes at farm boy) good to see you again!
As a personal observation it seems that there are 3 basic types of incel men:
Nice but boring… Everyone says he’s a great guy once you get to know him the problem is that he never gets laid because by the time women find out that he is a great guy they have friend zoned him, wasting his time and money, usually playing with his emotions in the process.
This guy can be helped with Game on all levels because he is basically normal, educated, employed and clean… so from hygiene and appearance, to displays of dominance and learning a few tricks he can with a modest amount of work put himself in the running to participate successfully in the sexual marketplace
He can figure out how to get laid, find, meet, attract and keep a woman or women if he choses.
Awkward with issues… Needs to double down and work on himself before he can even begin the finer points of Game that will lead to social and sexual success. He is the guy that his friends and family would say isn’t a BAD guy BUT he really needs to _________.
Probably the best candidate for a program like Married Mans Sex Life MAPP or something of equal structure… with the correct support and guidance he too can learn, with time and determination the skill to make himself sexually marketable.
Perhaps he is also a good candidate for safe paid sex as a relief for his sexual frustrations, although based upon feedback some men in this position finds it only increases their frustration as it is an additional humiliation
But the problem with this type is his success or lack there of is highly variable depending on the length and breadth of his personal and professional issues.
The last type, and most pertinent to this conversation…
Entitled, petulant brat… Like the old Groucho Marx joke, these guys wouldn’t want to belong to any club that would have them as a member.
On the surface they seem normal in appearance, some women would even consider them attractive if they saw a picture of them, they often possess skills and assets that others would think of as advantages. But their frustration stems not from being unable to get sex, or even get sex from the TYPE of women they desire.
Their needs tend to be specific and all encompassing scenarios outside of the act of just sex.
Using Elliot Rodger’s manifesto as an example, he just didn’t want sex with the hot chick… he wanted the hot blonde girl from the specific sorority and to go to and be welcomed at all the cool kid parties AND be respected as a dominant alpha socially by the other males as well.
But the important thing with these guys is in their minds the barrier to entry is women and not themselves… which is why Game can’t help them… because their desires are based on a fantasy.
Simply put a lot of them are incel not because of lack of access or lack of opportunity but because what they have available isn’t good enough… and I would argue (once again based on observation) never would be.
True story… I know identical twin brothers in their 20’s, one has always had multiple girlfriends since high school, and is satisfied with his life: sex, social, academic, professional, etc.
The other brother is a hot mess, unemployed, dropped out of school, has massive anger issues, and feels like his brothers standards are way too low, especially when it comes to his girlfriends ( I would disagree with his assessment but I am a chick so take that for what its worth)
Hot mess brother complains incessantly and lays blame on his family, friends, genetics, professors, organizations, etc… his frustration is palpable and he is most vocal about still being a virgin because he won’t sleep with the dogs his brother will.
So when I read the story and watched the video of the tragic shooting I wasn’t surprised in the least. I immediately thought of the twins.
I think that several people have hit upon major contributing factors in this thread i.e. being raised to believe they are unique and special and should have everything they want, observing or rendering judgement on the appearance and status of the women who would have sex with them, living in one of the most superficial places on the planet earth, etc…
I think the above factors are systemic throughout a generation and are getting worse. Could they be exacerbated by mental health and chemical imbalance, certainly.
But one thing I know for sure is they weren’t caused by Game ~JS
Ideally if the world would learn from this is that a privileged rich white boy can be much more miserable than some oppressed minority. Politically correctness hardly has a monopoly on defining who suffers.
It is more likely the world will not learn from these deaths, however. These incidents of frustrated men, “going postal,” have been occurring for as long as we’ve had guns and as massacres in Africa/China/etc. show, even guns are not a prerequisite. Men are biologically driven to procreate, and when they cannot mate or raise their children, some turn to violence. Pearl clutching over it isn’t going to fix the core problems of the modern world.
Men are biologically driven to procreate, and when they cannot mate or raise their children, some turn to violence
Ii wonder how China is going to deal with this…
Well after reading comments on-line, the line-of-attack from feminism is the obvious one: a shaming campaign.
The masculine way to enforce order is violence; the feminine way to enforce order is shame. Neither sex has a monopoly on either, but each side overpowers the other on their own turf. The way to deal with it as always is to publicly call out the shamer for what they are doing, and point out that the toxic shaming culture that the USA stews in is fundamentally unhealthy.
This is why I moved to France and don’t really want to return.
Farm Boy wrote:
Ii wonder how China is going to deal with this…
The only lesson one needs to learn is that of Rwanda. The recount, “Shake hands with the Devil,” by Roméo Dallaire, is chilling to the bone. And yet, even after Rwanda and the West’s ‘heightened awareness’ of, the massacres by machete continue in Africa.
If anything China’s one-child policy is actually forward thinking, even as it is breaking down in the face of human nature.
@Jhane Sez 174:
WOW!!!–so good to see you! How have you been? Long time, no hear, how’d you hear about us?
Ladies and gents, Ms. Jhane Sez is a member of the VSB (Very Smart Brothas) family, a reader and commenter in that forum of longstanding; she and I have communicated a bit over the years, and had fell out of communication dueto life issues, etc. She is a very levelheaded Sista and a fine lady in her own right.
I want to deeply thank you for our comment, and would like to combine it with the keen insights of Ms. Emma:
What you both have made clear, is that there are levels to this here Incel sh*t – that not all Incels are the same, and that it is very important to make much needed distinctions when discussing Incels. There can be and apparently are, differing types of Incels.
This cannot be overstated, and again I highly and deeply thank you and Ms. Emma for making that point crystal clear.
At my request and invitation, Ms. Emma has agreed to write an “op/ed” post on the Incel issue from her personal narrative of having one as a mate; I would like to extend the same request and invitation to you to write a guest post where you expound a bit on your comment at #174, outlining the distinctions of Incel males, and what if any remedial steps can or should be taken to assist them becoming whole again. Please contact me at theobsidianfiles@hotmail.com ASAP, as I firmly believe that the world (and believe me folks, A LOT of people are out there reading us!) needs to know and understand the powerful, powerful point you made at #174.
Thank you, and please, don’t be a stranger!
O.
@Mr. Toes 177:
You know, you hit on a very powerful point about Shame and the role that it is playing in this Elliot Rodger/Incel Male issue; I was watching a TEDx talk recently that I can’t find right now, and the speaker, a lady, was making the point that we have to stop the shaming around sexuality that has been going on. Now, she was speaking more in the context of former US Senator Larry Craig and Gay sexuality and so forth – but her point was valid and I’d say, even MORE applicable, to the Incel Problem.
I say that because, at bottom, is what I see as a serious shaming of (Straight) Male Sexuality – the idea that it’s bad, morally wrong, illegal, violent, depraved, et al, and that Men have to be “re-educated” in some manner, that if it were applied to Women or Gays/Lesbians etc, would be rightly derided as wrongheaded at the least downright evil at worst.
So, this is why we’re having this discussion today – and we’re going to continue the focus on the Incel Issue – because the time has finally come for all of us to begin to take the issue of (Straight) Male Sexuality, the Male Mating Mind and attendant Psychology, SERIOUSLY.
And that begins, with a strong and vociferous pushback against Shame. NO Man has to be ashamed of his psychosexual needs, and ANY society that fosters such a thing is a depraved and evil one.
Excellent comment – thank you!
O.
Ok, another comment for my monologue on shame (no creepy YouTube videos, I promise). In the part of the USA that is ‘Murica, shame is an integral part of the social fabric. The roots lie with the puritanical roots that were expunged from Europe to go live in the colonies. I’ve always found the stories around Kellogg (of corn flakes fame) trying to deprive people of all sources of pleasure (female circumcision in the USA, etc.) so incredibly bizarre and yet representative of the neurosis ‘Murica suffers from.
‘Murican feminism is so much different than European feminism, it that it tries to get revenge for all those years of puritanical shaming (save the Nordic countries). And so the cycle continues. I can only hope that the Men’s Rights Movement goes for less shaming tactics than the Feminism movement, and whatever arises from the ashes of the ideology of Feminism, twenty-years hence, is less hypocritical.
@Mr. Toes 181:
Again, excellent point in making distinctions between the “Feminisms” of the United States, much of Europe and the Nordic countries. Ms. Emma is from Norway, so perhaps she can join in on this point – what, if any, distinctions existbetween American-style Feminism and Nordic State-style Feminism?
Mr. Toes – you say that you have expatted to France. In light of the Dominique Strauss-Khan issue a few years back, and in light of the current Eillot Rodger issue here in the States, could you please give us your take on what you see as the distinctions between the American Female, the French Female, the American Feminism, and the French Feminism? Thanks!
O.
Obsidian:
The TED series you are thinking of is by Brené Brown:
https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability
The ironic thing is that she was originally speaking solely to women. She did not even realize that men face their own variety of shame until a married man with children confronted her at a book signing. I believe in the link I offered (I have not re-watched it) she does not mention (nor think) of men. It is only in other public talks that she discusses men even in passing.
The weakness of shaming is obvious: call it out. Shaming only works when the target is made to feel that ‘everyone else’ also feels the same way. When someone publicly dissents, it loses its value. It’s why 1st wave feminism was so successful, and it’s why 3rd wave feminism is turning into such a epic fail.
Jhane Sez, you nailed it with a very good taxonomy.
Now, our detractors and nice-guy-haters will insist there is only ONE category, the latter. Or, they will insist that last category represents the largest contingent of men. Or insist that any sort of introspection, wishful thinking, or analysis is proof they are in the latter.
Stupid, all that.
I see that last category as helpless, and too small to bother with anyway.
@Mr. Toes 183:
Actually, no, that wasn’t the TEDx talk I was talking about at all; I knew I should have bookmarked it! Ugh…
But anyway, the Bene Brown talk you link to above, and especially its backstory etc, IS hugely relevant to our currrent conversation, as it proves just how anti-Male our society is…oh, and while I’m at it, let me say something else…
TED is virulently anti-Male – I’ve watched numerous videos by them where the speakers are openly mocking and contemptuous of Men and Men’s Issues. I’ve been meaning to write something on this, so thank you for jogging my memory on it!
O.
Strauss-Khan is simply considered to be a criminal, as far as I’ve observed. OTOH, last year, President Holland had an affair, and no one cared. It was a British tabloid that picked up on it, and in French media there was a debate whether they should cover it or not (invasion of personal privacy versus the public’s right to know). Personally, I was contemptuous at first, but a couple of days later I stopped caring.
I struggle to comprehend France. It is very insular (island-like), in that it is the European nation that has most successfully resisted the encroachment of Anglo cultural imperialism. I’ve lived in the USA, Canada, and France. While Canada is very much just an softer echo of the States, im France so much is simply different and often contradictory. There’s no dating culture in France (or word for ‘dating’), and women tend to lay with men within their extended social circle. This tends to provide a lot of chick-crack drama for women, from what I’ve seen. I’m still a very disruptive influence on the status quo.
At the same time, the average BMI of French women is about 22, across all age ranges. So while there are fat women here, being thin doesn’t make a woman an automatic 7. The best way I can explain the culture is by anecdote.
* Douchebaggery has no novelty factor in France, so it will not help you with French women. This may be why the PUA community has had so little success here.
* Having the means to own a home with a garden is a novelty in France, so it _will_ help you with French women. Most young people live in apartments.
* French men are small, so physical strength is a novelty. One sees French men with Asian women, but French women with Arab and Black men.
* The collory is that dressing like a dandy will not help much, as metrosexual white French are quite common. Masculinity is better appreciated.
What is alpha and beta here is not exactly what is alpha and beta in the States because the women are looking for different traits. There is, in general, more honestly about the nature of women. The men are less naive and more cunning. The women are also more honest about their carnal desires. More than that will have to wait for me to assimilate more.
A Voice For Men has up a post giving their take on the Elliot Rodger issue:
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/ex-pua-elliot-rodger-commits-mass-murder-establishment-attacks-all-non-feminists/
O.
This was a perfect storm of creep-shaming, the game and mental health issues.
Nothing will change because both the creep-shamers and the NRA (and thus the US governement) are both in unrevokable positions of believing they are doing the right thing despite the inevitable inractable situations created.
Therapist Dr. Stuart Schneiderman weighs in:
http://stuartschneiderman.blogspot.com/2014/05/elliott-rodger-had-multiple-therapists.html?spref=tw
O.
Anti-Manosphere blogger Ms. Cinzia la Strega offers the following two posts on the Elliot Rodger affair:
http://rooshnme.blogspot.com/2014/05/manosphere-back-pedals-furiously.html
http://rooshnme.blogspot.com/2014/05/rejected-incel-finally-has-his-way.html
O.
Jezebel has up an interesting take on the Elliot Rodger issue:
http://jezebel.com/elliot-rodgers-final-videos-racist-postings-leaked-1581163115
Does anyone have any infor on this “Wizadchan”?
O.
policy is actually forward thinking, even as it is breaking down in the face of human nature.
That appears to happen regularly in this world.
It would be nice if people caught on to this.
Skepchick weighs in:
http://skepchick.org/2014/05/alpha-male-elliot-rodgers-retribution/
O.
HuffPo weighs in:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/24/elliot-rodger-video-shooting_n_5387272.html
O.
Apparently women need to be taught they are not entitled to mens bodies:
http://www.cbs12.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_16172.shtml#.U4HI6Z8eQCI.reddit
@189
More evidence. I still say this is a case of a murderous psychopath who happened to be an incel and not an merely incel that snapped and went on a spree.
Sexually frustrated men don’t typically kill other people they kill themselves.
I can see a Kafkaesque dystopian future where men who can’t obtain regular sexual release will be branded as mentally ill. At the same time the culture and legal system conspire to criminalize just about every form of male initiated approach and escalation. Porn will be criminalized as form of sexism creating a hostile living space. Prostitution will be decriminalized and soliciting will be continue to be criminalized with sex offender status added for the protection of women.
Lion of the Blogosphere, formerly known as Half Sigma, gives his take on Elliot Rodger’s 140-plus pageg manifesto:
http://lionoftheblogosphere.wordpress.com/2014/05/24/elliot-rodgers-biography/
O.
@174: Incel #3 is a hypergamous man. Someone who seeks perfection, but as that inevitably fails, rationalizes that the fault likes with the imperfect world rather than their imperfect selves.
Steve Sailer gives his take:
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2014/05/youll-find-this-interesting.html
O.
Chuck Ross of GLP fame over at the Daily Caller, reports the following:
http://dailycaller.com/2014/05/24/sheriff-elliot-rodger-stabbed-3-shot-3-to-death-in-murder-spree/
O.
#174 great comments. The anecdote about the twins is illuminating.
I’ve got a while to kill before church because I’m ready but my wife is having hair issues.
First, let me say, and I say this as someone whose worked with people who have mental illness in the past: he didn’t do what he did because he was mentally ill, unless of course, you consider “classical narcissism” to be a mental illness.
I use the term classical narcissism to refer to the definition of narcissism based of the Greek myth of Narcissus. Alone over @TLP, has done a lot of good work trying to expand on what classical narcissism is and why most people in the mental health field do not identify it, neither does the MSM cover it. You can read his post on the myth http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/10/the_story_of_narcissus.html
Mr. Eliot Rodgers had a movie in his head and he was determined to live it, despite what everyone did around him, he never woke up from his movie; even if a decent looking girl came up to him and thought he was cute, it didn’t matter, she probably wasn’t cute enough for his movie playing in his head. People keep bringing up everything else, including Game as the problem, it wasn’t. The manifesto is all a rationalization for him to make sense of what he’s doing, as well as providing the ending scene for the movie he wanted to play in his head.
The most appropriate explanation for Rodgers actions were rage. A classical narcissist feels rage anytime the movie in his head doesn’t match up with reality. And it was rage that killed Eliot Rodger and it was rage that made him want to kill others. The rage of not taking action and waiting for reality to come to him. You could have laced him with all the game in the world and nothing would have changed anything, because he wasn’t going to act. He, like a movie, wanted his beautiful woman to come to him and fulfill her role in the script, like every other director.
When I used to work with the mentally ill and the autistic, I observed that many of them were able to masturbate consistently, without the need of a woman, a man or any other entity. It was like the saying went, just a desire to get the poison out. The desire to associate sexual pleasure with intimacy of some kind, is due more to having a healthy mind than the lack thereof. Which is why focusing on the influence of mental illness, parental problems or his environment kind of misses the point. They’re rationalizations, that could probably have been factors, but were not the reason why he decided to go kill people.
As far as the system, the system did work believe it or not. He had several therapists. The police came to do interviews because someone complained that he seemed to be having problems. All the securities within the Matrix were given to him, and it seems he knew all about where the red pill was if he wanted to swallow it. However, that being said, if one internally has their own separate Matrix that they are living in, where they are Neo and the bullets are stopping and he’s the indestructible hero, it doesn’t matter how handsome, rich, stable his household is, etc, without attention and validation, he will follow a similar path. The reason why stories like this are becoming more common is due to the fact that it’s much easier to be a classical narcissist today than at anytime in human history.
The National Report has an interesting take on the Elliott Rodger issue:
http://nationalreport.net/elliot-rodger-pawn-feminist-agenda/
O.
Although I ought to apologize for bringing it up, Rodgers couldn’t even do *this* slaughter-of-blonde-sorority-girls right. On his big day of retribution, planned for months if not longer, after stabbing all of his (male) roommates, he went to the planned sorority house with his finger on the trigger for his big moment, and oops the door was locked. He knocked, believe it or not, politely. And nobody answered the doorbell, so he went away. His abject incompetence saved dozens of girls’ lives.
@Negro Libre 202:
Thank you so much for the brief breakdown on what you think Mr. Rodger’s problem was; would you be interested in expounding on this line of argument of yours in a guest post? Please let me know. Thanks!
O.
#202 Apparently there were voyeurism problems as well. I haven’t found where he was charged, but evidently had been questioned before.
Re: situational, or rather locational, alpha. Based on both his looks and his behavior, I suspect he could have been a big movie idol in Japan or elsewhere in Asia. But he didn’t know, maybe.
@ Obsidian
I found this thread on the Red Pill subreddit. It’s from several days before the shooting, and the thread is mostly mocking him, not celebrating him (the referenced video has been removed, likely due to the events of the past couple of days.)
I bring this up because the critics of the Manosphere want to paint Rodger as representative and assert that Red Pill people would find his brand of psychosis good and healthy. Read those comments, they’re not calling him a hero or a visionary.
“There’s got to be some sort of personality disorder or mental illness that causes guys like this not to understand how they come across to people (i.e. scary and off-putting).”
Maybe it’s Asperger’s. But I wouldn’t categorize this description as mental illness. This sort of cluelessness is probably the result of social atomization and simple isolation in most cases. There’s generally less and less personal interaction among people in such societies. If you add demographic implosion resulting in smaller families, you have a situation where lots of people have neither siblings nor cousins, they have few friends and spend most of their time either in isolation or in environments (school, workplace) where they interact with few people and it doesn’t really count as socializing. Their social skills either deteriorate or remain undeveloped in the first place.
Apparently women need to be taught they are not entitled to mens bodies
I would be gratified if they did not feel entitled to his paycheck, either directly or through taxes.
@CED:
Thanks CED! Yes, let’s post that link for all to see for themselves, shall we?
http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/25zpxh/male_hamstering_and_the_pain_of_the_omega_video/
As CED has noted, and you can see for yourself in the comments, Rodger is hardly being hailed as some kind of hero for the Manosphere. Actually if anything, it’s the opposite.
If anyone else out there has similar links, by all means post them up! This post and comments thread will serve as an aggregator of news and opinion on the Elliot Rodger from across the MSM and Red Pill spectrum, along with your comments and observations. Thanks, and keep em coming!
O.
@JF12 207:
Yes, I agree, alll he’d need was a few tweakks and he’d be all set.
O.
“There’s got to be some sort of personality disorder or mental illness that causes guys like this not to understand how they come across to people (i.e. scary and off-putting).”
Well yes, just like the one that causes chicks to do poorly in spacial exercises, and math in general.
@Hollenhund 209:
Yea, you make a goood point about the rule of culture in allthis, especially how, as Ms. Brown Sugah astutely put it, Social Media Makes You More Antisocial(TM), LOL. Good point!
O.
IMPORTANT MESSAGE TO ALL J4G READERS:
I’ve just received the following letter from a Brotha reader of J4G; I thought it was excellent and decided to repost it to the current thread. Your thoughts are most welcome:
“Hello, Obsidian!!!!
I’ve been reading with great interest about the whole Elliot Rodgers situation. Thanks, for putting that up on the J4G site so quickly. I’m sending this question to you personally because I don’t want to derail the important discussion taking place on the site. I hesitate to bring race into this discussion; however, I do know that black incels exist and I’m curious if there have been instances of them lashing out at women and/or society at large. What are you thoughts or observations on any black incels that you might be aware of in Philly? I mean, all black incels don’t have the wherewithal to got to Brazil, Dominican Republic, or even Africa to find a suitable mate. I don’t think that black guys ‘naturally’ have more game and can ultimately avoid a lifelong incel existence and if that is true- how do they(black guys) handle the pressure when the pipes back up and some sort of release is required? There are black nerds and other black guys who are socially awkward and would be at a disadvantage with the ladies. There are black guys who can’t dance:). What becomes of them???
All the cases that you guys are discussing on the site are instances of white guys who violently lashed out after continuously being unable to attract the hawt women that they desired. Are black guys better able to deal with being in a long term incel state? Do we have other outlets that we use to release the pressure build up? Maybe, this is something that happens when a guy feels that he is deserving of the HOTTEST of the hawt chicks and refuses to settle for women who are 5s, 6s, or 7s that he could more realistically attract. Curious to hear your thoughts on this matter.
Peace!!!!!!!”
Well, folks – what do you say in response to our reader? Do Black Incels exist? Is there such a thing as a Brotha Incel?
What do you think?
O.
@ Obsidian
And just in case someone thinks the comments were massaged after the fact, here’s the Redditlog of the exact same conversation:
http://redditlog.com/snapshots/622317
To followup on the previous post and the letter from the Brotha on the question of Black Incels and if they’ve “gone postal”: I am not aware of any such instances, but that of course doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen, in fact I’m inclined to think that, like so many things and issues in the Black community, if there ain’t a Great White Defendant at the center of it, it simply doesn’t make the front page, if at all in Black America.
So, we’re breaking new ground here. I want to ask all our J4G readers to see what they can turn up on the issue of Black Incels – anything you can find, post it up here in the comments! Hit up your Twitter, Facebook, you name it, and put it out there, and report any and all results. I’m going to hit up my Twitter and Facebook as well, and let you know what I get. Thanks!
O.
@CED 216:
Thanks CED yet again! And don’t forget folks, to keep your links and comments coming – the more, the merrier!
O.
You know what, ourr Brotha reader/letter writer hits on something that needs to be put on blast:
WHERE IS THE BLACK MEDIA/AFROSPHERE ON THE INCEL/ELLIOT RODGER ISSUE???
I’ve been scouring the Internet for the past 24 hours and have found NOTHING being covered by the Black Media; the Black Feminist websites have been, to my knowledge, silent. And I’ve sent this current discussion to Tommy Sotomayor, for his response. I think he will likely be the one to do the topic any justice, both on the general and specific levels. If you agree, hit him up and ask him about it: tj@yourworldmyviews.com via email; @TJSotomayor on Twitter. Let him hear from you! Let him know you want him to addres the Elliot Rodger issue, and how it relates to Black Men!
And if you happen to see the Black Internet picking up this story, and especially if they’re appproaching it from the angle of Black Incels, by all means, post up tthe links! The more the merrier!
O.
http://www.chaunceydevega.com/2014/05/the-true-alpha-male-ucsb-mass-shooting.html?m=1
Obsidian, I think this blogpost will answer your questions about Black incels
@Ms. Anon In CA:
Actually, he doesn’t – not even close. As I said upthread, Black folks can’t seem to think of ANYTHING that doesn’t require them to reflexively Black The White Man(TM). And that’s what “Chauncey” is doing right here – he is NOT addressing the question of whether Black Incels exist and if so, what if anything can or should be done about that.
Want to try again?
O.
Oops, that should have been “Blame The White Man(TM)”…
My bad!
O.
Obs, I’ll try to write something up by the end of the day.
As far as black incels, conformity is far more enforced in the black community than anywhere else; (it’s why many are called Stephen A Smith a coon for agreeing with the comments of Mark Cuban. They can’t disagree with him, it has to be more. It’s another example of narcissism, it’s just group oriented) to be a man who isn’t sowing his wild oats in whichever big booty woman walking around is an abomination.
As for the Chauncey link, that shows he’s fairly well schooled particularly in the social sciences. A lot of people of that type always go to the cultural marxists to explain white America to them, rather than go off what is common sense and pretty obvious: the guy precedes his post by saying that whiteness and white privilege are the luxury to be an individual, so I guess he himself doesn’t think he can ever see himself as an individual or actually be one? I wonder in Jamaica, if a black man kills another black man, does the whole country lament that they’ve committed a crime, or do they embrace their white privilege and look at him as an individual and ostracize him?
The cry that had he got Game things would have been different is one which I have difficulty in agreeing – much as one one might have once said, ‘if you want women learn Tennis and win at Wimbledon’ – its not as easily as that!
As for the suggestion that laws will be made to restrict men approaching women – these laws already exist, and the police (now that they are unable to persecute Homosexuals) delight in frustrating hapless men keen to talk to or even be in the presence of women.
Interesting that you want to focus on the role of race with Black Intels but you’re willing to ignore the role race plays for White Intels. Maybe you should read the post again? btw, I am NOT promoting this site; i just happen to agree with the author’s pov
@217
Even though I don’t have any specific examples of black incels lashing out at women or society, one thing I can give you is some of the jokes/insults that the guys used to give to each other when I was growing up in the black community back in the day:
1. One insult that was given to a brotha that you thought might be incel(we didn’t use that word but we meant a guy who wasn’t getting any) was to say- “You haven’t had any pussy since pussy had you” this would ALWAYS get a big laugh from the guys and the target of that insult would either have to start naming some names of girls or risk being viewed as a lesser man.
2. Another joke was to tell a guy who was thought to be incel that he was going to be given “The dusty dick award” due to his lack of putting it into anything wet:).
These were just ways of shaming guys who we thought to not be getting any. I’m not sure if those insults were suppose to motivate the incel guy to get busy finding a girl or just to embarrass him to get a laugh at his expense.
@eliblue
I’ve been the recipient of those comments and statements over the years, and it was so emasculating.
Here’s another: Note that the number of men has been corrected to 6 in the article.
http://judgybitch.com/2014/05/25/deeply-disturbed-man-kills-4-men-and-2-women-and-then-himself-and-is-declared-a-violent-misogynist-because-the-deaths-of-men-dont-count/
@ Obsidian
I found a very curious link at the end of Page 16 of Roosh’s thread.
The interesting thing is that Return of Kings called these people out back in 2013.
#36
“I have a hypo that, if the social scene didn’t involve practically everybody getting laid practically all the time and involving hot women–or so it would seem from the outside–but instead involved positive regard, trust, appreciation and approval from women sans sex, this guy would still have been left out.”
The problem with your hypo is that it’s simply not likely for anyone to grow up to be a socially illiterate, clueless incel in a social scene involving “positive regard, trust, appreciation and approval from women sans sex”, i.e. one where female hypergamy is regulated and everyone is taught and expected to interact with the opposite sex in a constructive way.
Discovered your website looking for the transcript of Elliot Rodgers .
I am a Brain Scan Researcher with a wife and 3 happy wholesome teens.
It is a scientific fact that Brain Scans of those at the very controls of this world , would display the exact same pathologies as Elliot Rogers !
Societal programming does structural brain damage !
The entire species is now on the spectrum of “Matrix Brain Damage” .
All have gestated in Hollywoods castration of Love and Being.
Ovaries are cojones too.
And at this time in history, ghosts have healthier brains scans than the living.
@ Jhane Sez #174
Excellent comment and I hope it gets turned into a post.
#43
Lulz. Well, that was fast, for sure. And also completely predictable. I wonder – does it really matter what leftist idiots like this say about the MRM? In all likelihood: no.
@Eliblue, Notebook 226-227:
So, just to be clear: you two ARE Brothas, and you two ARE saying that being Incels IS an issue – right?
O.
@Tom 231:
Hey Tom! Thanks for stopping by, don’t be a stranger. I would like to know more about how brain science informs what we’re talking about, and your expertise in the field would be most helpful. Please, anything more to have to share go right on ahead!
O.
Following CED’s lead at 229:
http://www.returnofkings.com/21749/the-most-omega-place-on-the-internet
O.
@Dlb 228:
Thanks for the always excellent Janet “JudgyBitch” Bloomfield link! By the way, I’ll be interviewing her right here at J4G, TOMORROW, May 26, 2014! It’ll be out at just after midnight tonight. Check it out and tell a friend!
O.
Yes, O it is, especially when you can’t open up about your circumstance without being viewed as a whiner.
#75
Why should it worry you? Or anyone else for that matter?
As far as I can tell, the broad consensus in the ‘sphere is that the social processes we can observe around us are self-reinforcing. This shooting is just further proof that this is correct. Roissy has pretty much predicted that such events will take place with more and more regularity, and others have done so as well. We’ve also discussed online censorship, the growing extremism of organized feminism, the curbing of free speech and how all this is bound to get worse. It’s bound to get worse because that’s how people react, how they behave. The human race ultimately behaves as a herd. It doesn’t think, it doesn’t have foresight. All it can do well, more or less, is to adapt when disaster has already struck. The disease you see around yourself will have to run its course. It cannot happen any other way.
At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what mainstream journalists and common folk think about the MRM. You can’t reason with sheep, and you can’t reason with propagandists clinging to their own prejudices. Those who want to know the truth about the ‘sphere are free to look and find out. If they are converted, fine. If they aren’t, it doesn’t matter anyway.
#215, #220,
The post linked at #220 attributes Rodger’s actions to “aggrieved white male entitlement syndrome”, a point I also made in #82 and several others have made as well.
Another pathology where aggrieved entitlement is manifest is in suicide rates. White men commit suicide at much higher rates than other ethnic groups except native Americans – more than twice the rate of blacks. That seems paradoxical at first glance, because white men enjoy more success in general than black men. But the expectations of success that society puts on them or they feel entitled to are sometimes even higher.
Not all these men are narcissistic monsters like Rodgers. I’ve known fine young men who’ve committed suicide because they felt like failures, although they were objectively more successful than most people on the planet. But somehow, through their upbringing, the demands of others, or some innate characteristics of their own, their expectations of themselves were higher than they could achieve, and they were unable to live with the ensuing sense of failure and disappointment. Inflated expectations can be deadly to those who hold them. And when inflated expectations combine with narcissistic entitlement and a desire for retribution, it can be deadly for many innocent bystanders.
#78
Don’t count on it. The great majority of people don’t read anything on the Internet that isn’t part of the mainstream narrative. Hell, they mostly don’t even use the Internet to inform themselves about anything. All they will take away from reports on this shooting is that it was a rich guy who hanged out on sleaty websites about picking women up, so obviously he’s just a mentally ill sh*thead with a sense of entitlement. They won’t bother to learn more about the shooting at all because they don’t care, and the reason they don’t care is that misandry runs deep. Do you think most of them will ever bother to find out that puahate is a website *against* PUAs? No. They’ll probably just assume it’s a reference to PUAs being hateful twats.
#221,
Black The White Man(TM)
Is that a really dark spray-on tanning product? I thought blackface was racist
#98
Lol. Exactly the sort of rubbish I’d expect from someone like her. “We need to talk about this”, she says. Yeah right. What she actually means is “people who completely agree with me on this should be given the opportunty by the mainstream media to lecture everyone else”. She wants to talk to others. She doesn’t want to be talked to.
I’ve worked with a couple of guys who had scary cases of “aggrieved entitlement” and “classic narcissim” per #202. Both were the type of guys that people were afraid might come in with a gun someday and shoot up the place. Interestingly, neither was white – one was North African, and the other was Indian. But both were from upper class or caste homes where they were raised to expect nothing but the best and to look down on others as inferior. Neither was talented or capable enough to merit the esteem they thought they deserved, and some serious rage was the result.
@Notebook 238:
Wow. Listen, I need you to be my eyes and ears on this issue on the Black side of things – keep an eye out for any Black Internet activity on this question/issue of Black Incels; ask those outlets why they aren’t discussing this, and report back any and all results, OK?
In the meantime: spread the word about what we’re doing to address the issue here at J4G. The more people, Brothas in particular, know about this and speak out/up, the better. Let them know that we want to hear from them! Thanks!
O.
@Ciaran:
So, to be clear:
Are you suggesting that that, Prof. Michael Kimmel may be onto something per his thesis in his book Angry White Men? I’ve interviewed him for J4G by the way, you can find it in the archives. Would be interested to know what you think. Thanks!
O.
@ollenhund 243:
LOL, yeaa. I think Ms. Janet “JudgyBitch” Bloomfield has thoroughly address Ms. Theriault’s arguments here. Of course, because we’lll be having Ms. Bloomfield on tomorrow here at J4G, we will give Ms. Theriault the same chance to come on here and speak her piece. I’ll keep trying to get in touch with her and let you alll know the results…
O.
#114
So he wanted to kill all omegas as well?
#123
Considering that this Jeremy Nicholson dude used to comment on HUS and declare his agreement with the hostess there, it’s a surprisingly accurate column.
Maybe someone has already said this bit just in case, so there is no confusion:
The reason women did not date this “man” is not because he lacked game, or was not alpha, or was beta, or whatever.
The reason women did not date him is because he was an insane megalomaniac.
Blaming others for ones problems or killing innocent people to try to solve ones problems or make things right is insane.
It is horribly tragic. The only person whose fault any of this is, is his own.
@Obsidian #246,
Are you suggesting that that, Prof. Michael Kimmel may be onto something per his thesis in his book Angry White Men?
As much as it pains me to say so, because I really dislike Kimmel, yes.
I read your interview (which was excellent) and read parts of his Angry White Men book standing in the aisles of B&N (I wasn’t going to give him any of my money for that). My opinion is that “aggrieved entitlement” is a valid concept, but he applies it too broadly and is too dismissive of the real grievances that many of his subjects suffered.
The common man in America, whether black or white, has been through the grinder in recent decades, as blue collar jobs have disappeared and wages for the remaining jobs have been pushed down. The common man has been betrayed and undercut by both the right and the left, and now has no advocate in the seats of power. So yes, he’s pissed, and he feels no one cares, for good reason. They don’t.
That said, I think there are certainly cases where the concept of aggrieved entitlement applies. This is one of them. And to be honest, I’ve seen many lesser examples around the manosphere, and even committed some of them myself. (I don’t think this admission is going to make me more popular with some of the regulars here, but no wisdom is obtained without self criticism.)
What’s difficult is determining what’s a legitimate grievance that one should fight against, and what’s aggrieved entitlement. It’s a judgement call that people of different political persuasions are going to see very differently. What is your right, and what is an entitlement?
The link at #220 has a different slant on it:
When an “Arab” or “Muslim” American kills people in mass they are a “terrorist”. When a black person shoots someone they are “thugs”. When a white man commits a mass shooting he is “mentally ill” or “sick”.
Whiteness and white privilege are the luxury to be an individual, one whose behavior reflects nothing about white people as a group.
This is breaking down entitlement by race – something pertaining to whiteness. It is interesting that most of the progressive and feminist commentators have chosen to make it about gender instead – something pertaining to masculinity. They have tried to make this issue reflect not only on men in general, but also men’s rights activists in particular.
H. Ref #230. My point was that Rodgers was on the outside looking in and had an idea of what went on in the ecology of coastal CCs which was likely incorrect. My guess is he figured all he had to do was show up and ask and he’s got a 9 panting for him. That’s the way it works for every other guy once they get inside, so why not him. It’s so unfair.
Now, having said that, this guy was nutty as a fruitcake–I’m sure there are more current metaphors–but this was the issue that set him off. Something else would have, likely, eventually.
@234
Yes, Obsidian, I’m saying that being an incel is an issue in the black community. According to tv, movies, and magazines black men are suppose to be the coolest of the cool and this is a stereotype that black men happily embrace.
So, what happens when you’re a black guy and you’re NOT cool, smooth, a player, mack daddy, pimp, and just overall lack swagger? One thing that used to happen back in the day is that you could join a church and try and get yourself one of the ‘good girls’ at the local baptist church. I’m not sure that option exists anymore but I’m not a church goer so I can’t say with absolute certainty.
One of the things that I like about the concept of GAME is that it really advocates consistent self-improvement if you’re unsuccessful with the ladies. Game is not asking women to change, alphas to change, or for society to change to accommodate a guy who’s failing with women for whatever reason.
I think that it’s harder for the black incel because we as black men are suppose to be innately cool, hip, and just instinctively know how to relate to the ladies. To say otherwise and you risk being labelled all sorts of things. Why we’re not seeing similar things with black incels like we’re seeing with ‘some’ white incels is a question I don’t currently have an answer for. I’ll wait on someone smarter than me to shed light on this largely unspoken and unacknowledged phenomena in the black community. Not all of us have opportunities to become ‘baby daddies':).
All I can say is that Black incels are out there. They’re getting no play from the ladies but I guess they’re somehow managing to live their lives without exploding.
I think that conditions which drove this murderous freak to his rampage are, unfortunately, baked into the SMP at this point, and that more tragedies like this may be coming.
We have a number of things going on here at the same time:
1. Increasing recognition that so-called Hookup Culture is *aspirational*, not *neutral*, for many men. From a game theoretical/microeconomic point of view, the existence of this sub-market changes pricing and feature demands in surrounding markets. Non-participants are affects by what happens in that market—in macro terms watching hookup development is probably something like watching the TED spread, Baltic Dry Index, etc.
This means that guys on the outside of the game who are looking in feel that the guys who are inside and participating are winners, studs, etc., and to measure their own participation in other markets by what is going on within this so-called “Winner’s Circle” (that’s what the culture is often referred to as by students, which in itself is very telling).
If a man has an opportunity to be a player, there is IMHO a high probability that he will take it. This is part of why player-shaming/swordsman-taming efforts never work—successful players feel with significant, supported justification that the guys engaging in the shaming would be enthusiastic participants in the same games if they had the chance.
2. Increasing gaps between “Have” and “Have Not” market participation on a number of quality of life domains. It’s not just sexual outcomes—the “average is over” asymmetries can be found in social status, income distribution, psychological reward structures, and so on.
3. Obsession with Physical Hotness. Pissed off guys are looking at what—and more to the point, who—the pretty, 32DDD blonde Tri-Delts are doing, and use that as the performance benchmark. 80%+ of the campus female population is more or less invisible to them—these women are “geeks” and “land whales” and “assault pigs”, etc.
No one on campus escapes from the rather Darwinian selection funnel of the Hot/Not Hot game. Everyone gets rated by hotness-consumer reports, even the professors.
At the same time, social media, Tinder, etc. increase the effectiveness and capabilities radius of the Hot crowd, while freezing more people out of what is perceived to be a glamorous party culture enjoyed by hot insiders.
4. Obsession with Lifestyle Voyeurism/Reality Shows. The party culture is amplified by skilled, selective activities-editing on social media sites, wherein some people appear to be enjoying endless parties with beautiful people, beach resorts, high-end shopping, travel opportunities, and vigorous workouts. If you need to keep up with the Joneses, you will now be inundated with information on how exciting and festive the Joneses are.
You put 1-4 together on a campus with 10,000 students and you may get something like this: 6,000 women. Top 20% on hotness=1,200 women being watched by 4,000 guys. Those women may only be “hookup available” to 100-200 elite BMOC type guys, but may be “relationship” (of some description) available to another 800.
So, do to a combination of factors and the imbalanced campus gender ratio, you already have 1200 hot chicks truly open to only 1000 equivalent guys, arguably a lot less, and those women really feeling like taking risks for only 100-200 campus studs.
The problem is that the vast majority of men cannot be Big Men on Campus. They don’t have whatever combination of physical power, looks, money, swag, etc. the BMOC guys do, and “gaming” the women may be rather difficult when decisions channels are resultant sexual outcomes are so front-loaded to initial hotness ratings.
This incel maniac in California seems to have thought that he deserved to be a BMOC. His visibility and situational awareness seemed to be limited to a small % of campus life, with him metaphorically peering from behind the drapes at who the most beautiful women were throwing themselves at, judging hot chicks who liked alphas to be “sluts”, and probably feeling that good looks, literally cocksure physical confidence, and dominant strength, size, and athleticism were being prized more than his own, more-deserving gifts were (I assume he felt entitled to hot chicks because he was “smarter” than the jocks).
I don’t think there is a cure for this. I think it is probably going to get worse. I’ve heard some pretty bleak and bitter comments among male students IRL. It’s what happens when expectations become fueled by what the SMP-elite are doing, and people feel like failures when compared to those expectations. There is no sexual redistribution tax methodology to make sure that every guy gets firsts with a hot chick before any particularly well-positioned guy gets seconds, thirds, fourths, or even four-hundredths. It will never be fair.
One practical result of this whole thing is that people who are aggressive and insulting to others online and think that making virtual enemies is relatively safe need to take a step back and possibly reconsider this policy. This is particularly true for the more vulnerable guys and for women—if you don’t know how fight, if you are a physical wuss, if would avoid a physical conflict in real life because you know you would get badly hurt, then you should probably consider that you may be unknowingly interacting with some vengeful freak online. Just be really careful—there are clearly some people out there who are really hurting, with grievances both real and imagined, and you don’t want to just gratuitously humiliate someone unstable and provide him/her with a target for all of these existential problems, and the police can’t really do much to help you until it may well be too late. Don’t let your virtual mouth write checks your real-life fists can’t cash, etc. Common sense.
My formerly incel mate (Eivind Berge) weighs in:
http://eivindberge.blogspot.no/2014/05/a-good-read.html
Der Daily Mail on the case, there’s bloody miles of stuff, but no particular animus toward MRA or PUA that I see.
Just a ghastly inevitability about the whole thing, he wasn’t brought up short (=lamped) on some fairly outre previous incidents because privilege or summat.
” ‘The only person he spent time with was his mother. I think he was quite close to her. His mom is very sweet and nice and I think she gets on well with Elliot and Georgia’s dad, even though they’re divorced.”.
This iswhat “normal” (lol) Brits make of the whole thing, FYI. Bored and mucking about by page 3, but basically sympathetic to all concerned and not any discernable MRA/PUA hate, again.
e.g.
“I have some sympathy for him. I’m a failure with women and life but I blame myself, not the world. Asperger’s, the Internet, freely available guns, teasing/bullying comments from other young people – it’s a recipe for disaster.”
#145
The fundamental issue here isn’t what the shooter thought about women. It’s the conclusions he drew from his observations, and the way he decided to act on them. These are rather different issues.
#251
The rights and entitlements of any individual are legally defined. These concepts are regulated by law. In other words, they aren’t open to interpretation. It’s not like there are different but equally valid opinions out there about whether you, as an US citizen, have a right to do X or whether you are entitled to Y. It’s one thing to be entitled to something, and it’s another thing to have a *sense* of entitlement.
With respect to *grievances*, that’s a different issue, of course. At the end of the day, it’s a matter of personal opinion. If I have a grievance about something, others may say I should not have it, or that it’s not legitimate, but it doesn’t change the fact that I have that grievance and it’ll affect my views and actions.
#254
“I think that conditions which drove this murderous freak to his rampage are, unfortunately, baked into the SMP at this point, and that more tragedies like this may be coming.”
“I don’t think there is a cure for this. I think it is probably going to get worse.”
That’s my view as well. The only correction I’d add is that, objectively speaking, we can be sure more tragedies *will* be coming. After all, can anyone claim with a straight face that such spree killings will someday magically stop?
“This means that guys on the outside of the game who are looking in feel that the guys who are inside and participating are winners, studs, etc., and to measure their own participation in other markets by what is going on within this so-called “Winner’s Circle” (that’s what the culture is often referred to as by students, which in itself is very telling).”
It’d be interesting to see how this view of things impacts the thinking of average men on campus. I think it’s entirely possible that many of them are thinking “well, that jerk big guy with a Porsche is banging 9s and 10s all the time, it’s only fair that a guy like me should be able to do the same with 5s and 6s”.
BB: “This incel maniac in California seems to have thought that he deserved to be a BMOC. ”
Precisely. This is one actual case where there actually IS massive delusion and entitlement going on.
And we all know, if this dweeb actually deigned to talk to actual men who have their shit together… then such men would tell him to set either his sights lower, or improve himself – there is no other option. Fat chance of that being reported, though.
BB notes the force-multiplying effect of social and other new media; I associate its effects with a new social interaction in which narrative and theme are more important than facts and the impermanence of opinion.
In the new social and electronic media, the endgame appears to be a simple, emotional “internet meme” picture with a contemptuous tag line, and this is how everything from politics to policy to intersexual relations appear to aspire. Critical to this process is the supply of caricature-worthy subjects that enable a devastating critique. This critique, inevitably, must deny the rationality, intellectual scrupulousness, and moral integrity of dissenters. If dissenters’ very integrity may be discarded through invective and a global, electronic sneer, then no time and effort need be applied to grappling with such dissenters. That is the endgame here, with Rodger: invalidate dissenters to majoritarian social impulses today.
All of this helps explain the Rodger case, the contradictions of which are overwhelmed by tsunamis of codewords and “I dare you to speak out loud” threats.
For Rodger doesn’t meet any of the criteria that should be required to assert PUA culture as a kind of select-fire weapon that should be banned and its owners criminalized. Good luck pointing out any of the following to anyone who disagrees that, in Rodger, we have merely a disturbed and enabled prince of prog culture:
a. he’s a white-privlege exemplar? He reflects no majoritarian privilege other than that of the prog class’ “thee but not for me” noblesse oblige. He can’t be labeled a racist white boy if the president cannot be labeled a white man: they are white in equal measure.
b. he’s a woman-hating misogynist? Well, he killed more men than women, and his frustrations in life have to do with his rejection, in his sexual naivete, by the prog culture of empowering promiscuity.
c. he’s an NRA poster boy? Actually, he was enabled by the anti-gun culture SB police, who interviewed him at the alarmed request of his family, who had washed their hands of any parenting responsibilities. The state, not a private organization committed to legal ownership of weapons by sane people, opened the door to this boy.
d. he’s a ‘extremist gun culture’ poster boy? Well, he used a knife on half of his victims, and SB has a CCW penetration rate of .0016. The police here responded in six minutes, but that was six minutes too late, in a community where self-defense has been assigned to police, who have no legal obligation to protect anyone. In the past 40 years there’s been one (1) spree killing effected by someone in a CCW-friendly envir
Already, it appears that the facts matter not at all. This was a medicated, damaged, abandoned (by parents, by social workers, by LEOs), sexually naive boy who could not fit his life model to the life models of those he’s been taught to admire. So he killed people. His environment encouraged it because his community disarmed the healthy to provide the shooting range he needed for his 15 minutes. His parents and police and social work infrastructure each turned their eyes from his illnesses to their happy-talk utopian, preferred world.
Blaming his attendance on a website, such website now a vehicle for ‘hate speech’, is no smarter than blaming the collapse of the family on a few ‘slut walk’ displays in a few urban centers. If we take this seriously, as some sort of reflection of MRA or PUA impulses, so too must we take seriously the idea that Jezebel organizes majoritarian feminist impulses.
There is no society in which some small number of people do not jump the rails. Given that Rodger evinced every leading indicator of a madman on the make, and that all of the approved social Jersey barriers failed to keep him under control, it’s perhaps better to turn the burden of proof on his “I told you so!” betters. This nomenklatura of right-thinking meme-floggers require useful idiots, Rodger is one, and that is all we can really learn from this episode that we already don’t know.
We truly live in a society now in which debate and argument and logic are meant to be licensed. The idea that the only cure for offensive speech is more speech has fled. Instead we are being told to shut up and comply with the majority, which majority prefers its ‘though’ in the form of a derisive photo of something with a 10 word tag line. I suggest resistance, but suggest too that the only resistance that is possible is ‘showing’ a better life, and better set of ethics, than attempting to ‘tell’ a better story.
It will be interesting to see how this episode informs pop media this week, and if the glaring inconsistencies in fact and storyline are captured by social and pop media’s leading lights. Optimistically, perhaps, I think even they will stear clear. Even if I’m wrong, I wonder if it’s smart to disabuse the meme traffickers through reference to facts. Boko Harum kills more boys than kidnaps girls, too, and we’ve seen the twitter campaigning “save our girls” gestures being suppressed by follow-on “Huh? Are you serious” questioning. At bottom, those who would organize mass impulses based on twitter photos or Facebook memes are satisfying an emotional impulse that collapses on inspection. I would encourage the meme-mongering with Rodger, and watch the expected outcomes crumble as the opposed worlds of fact and shaming collide.
#258,
The rights and entitlements of any individual are legally defined. These concepts are regulated by law. In other words, they aren’t open to interpretation.
Hah. You’ve never read through a Supreme Court ruling then, have you?
As a matter of fact, the interpretation doesn’t even stop after a ruling. From the NYT today, we have this:
The Supreme Court has been quietly revising its
decisions years after they were issued, altering the law of the land without
public notice. The revisions include “truly substantive changes in factual
statements and legal reasoning,” said Richard J. Lazarus, a law professor
at Harvard and the author of a new study examining the phenomenon.
#262
What should and should not include civil rights is open to interpretation. What does and doesn’t, is not. And yes, laws can change. But we can’t really debate what the law says at one given time.
#251 Rodger’s entitlement complex really was exhibited in his being an Angry Not-White-Enough Not-Man-Enough Man. He wasn’t tall enough, rich enough, cool enough, masculine enough, WASPy enough, etc
Bloom at 250,
The first video I saw of Elliot was a previous one. Youtube had taken down the one wherein he declared his intentions. Watching the previous video, I had to wonder why he wasn’t getting any traction in dating. There was so much that was right with him.
Could your conclusion be based on how the story turned out?
I truly wished that he had not gone down this rabbit hole of despair.
Emma the Emo,
In a similar vein to what I had to say to Bloom, I followed your link to Eivind’s blog and between checking out his thumbnail and reading his post, I have a hard time figuring out how women took a pass on him.
Maybe I’m no good a determinig SMV for men.
Anyway, you’ve got each other. May you treat each other as if you were golden.
BV #261…”We truly live in a society now in which debate and argument and logic are meant to be licensed. The idea that the only cure for offensive speech is more speech has fled. Instead we are being told to shut up and comply with the majority…”
I think the increasing hostility toward free speech probably has something to do with the change over time in mix of professions. If you’re a farmer or a machinist or even an electrical engineer, the difference between *speaking* and *doing* is pretty clear…but less so, if you’re a lawyer or an academic (outside the hard sciences), or an advertising person, or any of several types of consultants.
Word-people (literary intellectuals, journalists, etc) were once viewed as primary defenders of free speech, but the opposite now seems to be the case.
FuzzieWuzzie,
Eivind had less going for him than this guy. Eivind was poor and wasn’t connected to Hollywood. Yet he was good-looking and interesting in real life. Not weird, not creepily awkward and not narcisstic. He said he got put in the friendzone often, and it’s being totally inoffensive that was the problem, not the opposite.
I don’t know about Elliot Rodger, as I haven’t read his book yet. But a man doesn’t need to be repellent or obnoxiously misogynist to end up an incel. He could just be “boring”. He could be more interesting if a girl stuck around long enough to observe it, but he’s not great at initial conversation, so he lacks the hook on his fishing equipment, so to speak.
Speaking of attracting women purely on decent looks.. I think it can happen sometimes. Eivind said he sometimes got ONS, but the girls didn’t want to stick around and left, even though he wanted to keep them. Proof a handsome beta can be “pumped and dumped”?.. (minus the feeling of being used for sex, of course…)
He still had to pay to lose virginity at age 21 though. Not very much younger than this guy.
Roosh weighs in
http://www.returnofkings.com/36135/no-one-would-have-died-if-pua-hate-killer-elliot-rodger-learned-game#!
Runsonmagic weighs in
http://runsonmagic.com/2014/05/corrupting-youth-like-elliot-rodger/
To those of you unfamiliar with Chris Gale at Dark Brightnes, he’s very Christian and a mental health care professional from New Zealand.
http://pukeko.net.nz/blog/2014/05/autism-shooting-and-snow-day-readings/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=autism-shooting-and-snow-day-readings
Emma the Emo,
Thanks for the input. It could well be that a lot of guys are unlucky for the reason that they are not stellar.That’s the downside to hypergamy.
@ fuzzie I didn’t watch the videos bc I am pretty sensitive about this type of negative energy, try to avoid the ranting in the world when I can. But based on the outcome I stand by the statement – there is no way to justify such actions, however unhappy or unfair or what not life is IMHO. The answer to ones frustration is always personal change, trying to make others change to suit ones own needs and wants never works. Hurting others is IMHO never a “solution” and even if I can feel empathy for his plight I can not condone his choices in any way. If that makes sense?
@ fuzzie it’s also too bad someone, anyone, did not see him turning to such dark thoughts. These things can start off as a small idea that one obsesses on and then build to the point the person feels compelled to act out these dark thoughts (suicide also.) I know it is much harder for men to reach out for help, ESP w mental health issues, but I wish he had. Anyone having such thoughts, talk about them. (In case anyone is thinking similar) Saying it out loud steals their power. There is help available. When one is young, feelings are so intense but with age one can see, there is much good ahead. At 35 perhaps he would have been bmoc… Or similar. Many men grow into their alphaness, who one is at 16, 18, 21 is not who one will be…
@Ms. Bloom 272:
With all due respect, I think Roosh and Eivind really hit thenail on the head, along with Ms. Jhane Sez’s comments at 174 and Ms. Emma’s comments throughout this discussion (she’ll be having a guest post up this coming Tue, May 27, for more on this topic of the Incel Problem): a significant part of the problem here, is that our culture does not take Male Mating Psychology & Reproductive Health seriously; indeed, if anything it mocks it, demonizes it, shames it – and we all cann no longer deny the results.
This is a clarion call for those of us in the sphere to Step Up – hence the entire purpose of this thread: to inform, to encourage to speak out, and to find solutions.
There is no doubt in my mind that Game Saves Lives, fullstop. And I am deeply touched and moved to see Women come forum forward in the true spirit of understanding, empathy and love for Men. More than anything else, this is badly needed, and the ladies who have come forward in this forum in that regard are truly exemplary.
I do not deny that Rodger and other Men may need mental health help – fair enough. But I’m with Roosh – there is simply no doubt in my mind that had Rodger had some Game on his side, he would have at the very least, “taken the edge off” until the mental health he needed could kick in. Ms. Emma is living proof in this regard as to what I’m talking about here.
If there is anything goood to come out of this truly sad affair, its that finally, Male Sexual and Reproductive and Psychological Health will get its Day in the Sun.
It’s about time.
O.
Just throwing my two cents in the pile: I want to back up what was said earlier about being incels not being “destined to committing violence”… from personal experience. I’m 28 years old and only just lost my virginity back in November of 2013. I went through at least a thousand rejections in 2013 alone. Continuous sexual frustration does not automatically mean that a man will become violent – there must be other factors in the mix.
As for “Game” saving lives, it very likely saved mine. My sophomore year in college, I had gotten so lonely, sexually frustrated, and depressed that I started contemplating suicide. There was a woman I had a major thing for who had just moved onto the floor of my dorm who, as it appeared to me, was intentionally toying with me for her own validation. She would randomly come to my room while I was trying to study, start tickling me, and get physically close (within a few inches of my body), and then abruptly walk off.
One of the biggest things helped me emotionally pull through that time, aside from discovering Linkin Park, was reading “The Game” by Neil Strauss. Deep down, I already knew that there was something fundamental I didn’t understand about dating, but none of attempts to reach out for help gave me that missing piece. I only continued to hear the platitudes “Don’t worry, you’re such a great guy! Eventually you’ll find the right person,” “Just be yourself,” and “Don’t try so hard! It’ll come if you just stop analyzing it.” Finally discovering the truth (well, part of it any way), was a profoundly healing experience for me.
Suddenly, all of my interactions with women started to make sense. I was still no where close to being able to get my first kiss (that would take another year of practice and approaching), but I could at least be comforted with the knowledge of WHY I was continually failing.
I can’t say for certain that I would have committed suicide if I hadn’t discovered game, but I can say this with all honesty: Prior to discovering game, I was on anti-depressants: Every year, at least once, I would enter a deep and dark depression at least a week, and in one case up to two months. After discovering game, I stopped having those major depressive episodes, even after I stopped taking anti-depressants.
Bloom,
This is a dark subject. This guy yielded to despair and turned to evil. Maybe the lesson is not to go down this road for the guys. Since you’re a girl, the lesson doesn’t apply to you.
@Pellaeon 274:
THANK YOU for validating everything I and otthers have said in this entire thread, with your personal testimony! “The Game” is one of my go-to sources on human mating asit pertains to Men, it is highly effective and I consider it must-reading for anyone, especially male, who is serious about getting their Game on track.
I want everyone to go back to Pellaeon’s comment above…and just focus on the part where he was on anti-depressants – think about that! Just let that part sink in. The Man was fighting deep depression because his biology was being thwarted. Note the linkage between body and brain!
And yet, this is what “modern science” prescribes, literally, for arguably millions of Men in our time. This is their idea of “remedy” – to de facto chemically lobotimize Men – not tocater to their psychosexual needs.
Now – compare and contrast to Pellaeon’s reading – just reading! – The Game. Look at the huge difference it made! If nothing else, it got him off the drugs that were dulling his brilliant mind and senses – by any objective measure, that alone is a huge improvement.
Yet another testimony, among a great many in this thread thus far, that Game, WORKS.
Thanks, Pellaeon!
O.
@ fuzzie believe me even though I am a girl, I feel for what men face and I don’t think I even began to understand that before finding these discussions (and I can still only grasp it so much). I think women should be more aware that men feel thus, that women need to not you with men or think they don’t feel deeply or have needs and emotions. Bc they do. Deeply! Peace! Sometimes dark moments create opportunity for change and awareness, hopefully from such darkness good will come. If reading about this here for example helps one person avoid going dark side, changes one life, hopefully more, then this tragedy is not meaningless…
* toy not you, oops
@ O agreed, men helping men learn to navigate game and such is helpful, needed, good. I apologize if my comment seemed to suggest otherwise. Men need to learn “the secrets of the opposite sex” somehow. To clarify….
And also I think you guys explaining, how could he get there and why, is valid and valuable and gives voice to someone who cannot explain why now… And what could have helped. Peace.
#280 if we take what Rodgers wrote at face value, he himself claims that if he had ever had one acual girlfriend then that would have made all the difference.
In a culture like ours where it is now *assumed* correctly that girls will have sex outside marriage, then literally any man who isn’t having sex IS definitely being highly scorned by females. There’s no other way to interpret it any longer. It used to be you could pretend there was chastity etc, but not any more.
There is no solution, since we won’t be going back to patriarchy. Feminism is willing to sacrifice itself on this issue of female choice.
Bloom,
Peace to you. It does go a little deeper that slugs, snails, and puppy dog tails.
Jf12 at 281,
Given your comment, Escoffier’s concept of “alpha or suicide” got a whole lot more real than he ever intended. That’s too much for the overlooked eighty percent.
Months ago, I tripped over a Christian blog. The post was asking for suggestions of what to do with all the overlooked church boys.
None were offered. That’s sad.
I think I read earlier in this thread that this young man had Aspergers. If that’s true, I don’t think he could have learned Game ( or at least not have been able to use it). Asperger’s patients are critically impaired in their social skills. He would have a hard time just making friends, let alone girl friends. Their interactions with others are usually purely one sided. They can’t intuit what someone else may be feeling or thinking …..(the way someone w/o Asperger’s can) ……by observing facial expressions or body language. Their non-verbal communications are very poor. His conversations would have been only about what he found important. His speech patterns would factual and repetitive. Most people bristle when they around some who has this. These people are often very lonely and have a hard time developing relationships. I believe the Virginia Tech shooter had Asperger’s as well.
Also, that might have been why he hated people with game so much….he wasn’t able to pull it off. He would never be the “cool” guy, not with his diagnosis. His formal, monotone speech patterns probably suited his “perfect gentleman” persona better.
Dread Game Update
Mrs. Gamer is again unhaaappy after my being out dancing without her for two nights. You will recall that she misbehaved last week when we were out dancing together and I didn’t ask her to go out dancing this weekend. She has taken to sobbing quietly.
I told her that a woman hugged me and gave me a peck on the cheek on the dance floor this weekend and she apparently has made a big TODO in her mind out of that. My daughter The Prude ™ said that that kind of behavior was inappropriate considering that I was married and she has never seen women kiss men on the cheek after a dance. I checked with a couple of other dancers and they say that it happens–one guy said once a year and another said about three times a month.
Fun Dance Story
I asked a woman from Iowa to dance and she started talking about what she didn’t want and tried to impose limits on our dancing. I ignored her BS and we danced, where I started with the simplest stuff and gradually increased the level of difficulty. She did fine in all this, but all of a sudden she started cursing me loudly on the dance floor saying that I said that I wouldn’t do this stuff, but she never stopped following my lead, doing fine. She kept cursing me until the end of the dance. I was just laughing at her the whole time. The woman told the people with her about her bad behavior as if it was a big joke. When I said goodbye to the group just before going home, the cursing woman admitted that she had had a great time dancing with me. Was she trying to break my frame? Idk, maybe. Anyway, don’t let women impose restrictions on dancing without valid reasons (like inner ear problems causing imbalance). And don’t take women’s tantrums too seriously.
Other women who heard the cursing still wanted to dance with me. Maybe preselection due to cursing was going on. Shades of “Legally Blonde.” heh
@LynM #283,
Adam Lanza, the Sandy Hook school shooter, also had Asperger’s. Like Rodgers, he had no friends, had divorced parents, and grew up in affluent circumstances.
Norwegian mass murder Anders Breivik also had Asperger’s and narcissistic personality disorder.
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/05/21/study-finds-significant-portion-of-mass-murderers-and-serial-killers-had-neurological-disorders-including-autism/"And there's more:
There’s Seung Hui Cho, who killed 32 people at Virginia Tech. There’s Jared Loughner, who pleaded guilty to killing 19 people in Tuscon. And there’s one of the most infamous serial killer of all: Jeffrey Dahmer.
@LynM,
Also, the commenter theasdgamer who posted right after you at #285 claims he’s on the autism spectrum and uses game effectively.
At Ciaran #286
Aspies have a hard time with empathy. They have no understanding of anything outside their own existence, but they still need companionship and can suffer from great depression. The are the true “Solipsist”.
@Ciaran 287
It doesn’t hurt that he is such a good dancer either:)
So I have a skeptical question about the “game saves lives” idea. If women are primarily interested in the top guys, and game allows a man who is not receiving female attention to do so, isn’t he just displacing a guy who would have received attention into the group that is ignored? There’s only room for 20% in the top 20%, after all. There are still going to be the same number of losers from which to draw the mass shooters from. So for the individual who improves his lot, that’s good, but from a societal perspective it is rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship.
This assumes that women’s attraction is based on relative merit. If at least some part of female attraction was based on absolute merit, then game, or any other method to improve male attractiveness, might bring about an increase in the number of men found attractive. More men could cross the minimum level of attractiveness, and perhaps the 20% could grow to 30%. So the ship is still sinking, just not as fast.
But the ship still ends up sinking, does it not? There is no scenario where game allows most men to become attractive to women. As Miss Stephanie has pointed out, when confronted by new techniques such as game, women eventually develop countermeasures to restore their selectivity to its previous high level.
Your thoughts?
#290, your math error is because you refuse, still, to take into account that men want women more than women want men.
Have you never read the Gilligan on Slut Island argument at Dalrock? Briefly, the number of desired men doesn’t affect women’s behaviors at all, because the desired men are in the minority.
@ Ciaran, LynM
I was rated moderately autistic by a shrink. Relative to most autists, my autism is mild. However, learning social stuff has been a great challenge and I still have difficulty discerning convo breaks, which puts me at a decided disadvantage when engaging in group convos. I have been able to learn to recognize Indications of Interest when I am actively looking for them–this seems to be intuitive for me. Other factors that have helped me with Game are my narcissism (like the shooter) and capability to act sociopathically (I’m not without empathy, but I can control it). Most of my use of Game occurred about four decades ago when I wasn’t a very good dancer. I’d say that my attractiveness to women in a dance setting is higher than it was four decades ago. My wife rates my looks as a young man at 8/10, which is fairly handsome; I’m sure that that didn’t hurt when I was younger running a very unsophisticated version of Game as a natural. I had some understanding of the interaction of men and women; men chase women and women let themselves be caught. Play the field (i.e., Don’t have Oneitis). Women are like buses; another one will be along in ten minutes (i.e., have an abundance mentality). You probably won’t have sex if you never approach. Be bold and instigate. Escalate and push boundaries. I also have tremendous inhibitions regarding sex, lol. It takes a very attractive woman to motivate me to overcome them.
Autistic men have some advantages–some are naturals due to their tendency to break rapport, which intrigues women. If autists represent about ten percent of the population, something must be going on to keep them in the game, genetically-speaking.
As regards autism and PUA capability–I think that there are a number of PUAs who blog who say that they are autistic.
Re#290
That hard for me to comment on. I don’t fully understand the Pareto principle and how it applies to sex in this generation. I would like to read the study myself….if there is one. (I’m kind of convinced that it really sprung from an OK Cupid survey, rather than a legitimate study). In my life I’ve observed that the popular Alpha males and the prettiest females always seem to hook up, leaving the other 80% of male and female wallflowers feeling left behind. It’s probably always been like that, but with social media and promiscuity thrown in……it’s more painfully obvious. What I don’t believe is that 80% of the women and only 20% of the men are having sex.
Re#292
That’s good to know. My 22 y.o. son is mildly autistic (not aspergers).. Maybe I’ll buy him the book by “The Game” by Mr Strauss.
#290 “As Miss Stephanie has pointed out, when confronted by new techniques such as game, women eventually develop countermeasures to restore their selectivity to its previous high level.”
There is a cyclical argument that reappears, in cycles, around arguments of this type. Women becoming too slutty causes men to become too slutty which causes women to become too picky which causes men to become too picky which causes women to become too slutty. It’s merely amusing, not illuminating, or true.
@Ciaran:
” So I have a skeptical question about the “game saves lives” idea. If women are primarily interested in the top guys, and game allows a man who is not receiving female attention to do so, isn’t he just displacing a guy who would have received attention into the group that is ignored? There’s only room for 20% in the top 20%, after all. There are still going to be the same number of losers from which to draw the mass shooters from. So for the individual who improves his lot, that’s good, but from a societal perspective it is rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship.
This assumes that women’s attraction is based on relative merit. If at least some part of female attraction was based on absolute merit, then game, or any other method to improve male attractiveness, might bring about an increase in the number of men found attractive. More men could cross the minimum level of attractiveness, and perhaps the 20% could grow to 30%. So the ship is still sinking, just not as fast.
But the ship still ends up sinking, does it not? There is no scenario where game allows most men to become attractive to women. As Miss Stephanie has pointed out, when confronted by new techniques such as game, women eventually develop countermeasures to restore their selectivity to its previous high level.
Your thoughts?”
O: If you checkout Roosh’s post on the Elliot Rodger issue over at Return of Kings, he pretty much addresses your question, and so have I on a previous J4G post, “One Of The The Good Guys: Why Tyrone’s World Is “Coming Apart””. We both have agreed that Game is at best, a micro-solution best suited for the individual Man, not the society at large, for all the reasons that are well known and largely accepted throughout the Manosphere.
Having said that however, and again as Roosh has stated, Elliot could have improved his chances, however slight and small; it would have been enough to stave off what happened last Fri. As he’s said in his own words the bar was set pretty low anyway – he just wanted the sexual attention of a girl. Game could have gotten him that. And he and others, would be alive today. I firmly believe that.
As for Ms. Stephanie’s point – keep in mind that she’s the stan for Tindr here, LOL – and keep in mind, as I pointed out to her, Tindr is designed on some of the most bedrock principles of Game itself(!): Preselection, Social Proof, Social Circle Game, just to name a few. So, by definition, not only is Ms. Stephanie cosigning, 100%, that Game works, she is enthusiastically indicating that this is so.
Having said that, the sexes have and will continue to co-evolve, developing countermeasures to the other’s “new wrinkles” in the mating dance; it is an neverending arms race, which is another reason why I said to Ms. Stephanie that her notion of being able to filter out Gamesmen via Tindr is putting Hope before Experience. All it will achieve is to screen out the more inept Gamesmen – the better ones, who will have the added “bump” of conventional attractiveness, will make it through just fine.
But for the average guy – and let’s be clear here, Elliot Rodger was NOT the average guy – by definition, he was well above average – Game is worth the time and investment. Anywhere from a few months to a few years, depending, can and will increase a Man’s mating options and quality, raising it at least a point if not several, on the scale, again depending. So, a guy who’s a “3” right now, if he devotes himself to learning just a smattering of Game, can in six months or less, be getting regular sex with “3” gals and higher – say, “4s”. And when you’ve been in the desert with NOTHING, them 3s and 4s look pretty darn good!
O.
@Ms. LynM:
” I think I read earlier in this thread that this young man had Aspergers. If that’s true, I don’t think he could have learned Game ( or at least not have been able to use it). Asperger’s patients are critically impaired in their social skills. He would have a hard time just making friends, let alone girl friends. Their interactions with others are usually purely one sided. They can’t intuit what someone else may be feeling or thinking …..(the way someone w/o Asperger’s can) ……by observing facial expressions or body language. Their non-verbal communications are very poor. His conversations would have been only about what he found important. His speech patterns would factual and repetitive. Most people bristle when they around some who has this. These people are often very lonely and have a hard time developing relationships. I believe the Virginia Tech shooter had Asperger’s as well.”
O: As others have noted in the forum upthread, much depends on the particularities of the Man involved, most notably, how extreme/bad off is his ASD/Autism? If relatively mild and/or high-functioning, we have all manner of anecdotal evidence that he CAN learn Game to formidable effectiveness. TheASDGamer, as his name infers, is one such example, and Roosh has gone on record in his newest post on the matter over at ROK in saying that he’s personally counselled Men in the same or even dire straits as Rodger.
So it can be done.
O.
@Ciaran
I think women respond to a mix of both relative and absolute value in men, not just relative.
Ciaran,
I want to say something about the Norwegian psychiatrists and Breivik. Norway is not like USA. The use of involuntary psychiatric commitment is high compared to other European countries, and people can be locked up without being a danger to themselves or others. In fact, the biggest reason for being locked up is not complying with the treatment (they just decide you’ll get less functional if you don’t comply, and force it) without being dangerous.
At first, Breivik was declared schizophrenic in a long report, compiled by two experts. Later, he was pronounced sane by other experts. This kind of incompetence when faced with evil doesn’t make me trust these “experts” on anything. No wonder Breivik is insulted by their diagnoses – they are essentially saying “No, society is doing everything right, none of his points are true, he’s just mentally disabled”.
The people with Aspergers don’t want to be associated with violent murderers, and violent terrorists don’t want to be brushed off as people with Aspergers. I can see why.
@Ms. LynM:
“Re#292
That’s good to know. My 22 y.o. son is mildly autistic (not aspergers).. Maybe I’ll buy him the book by “The Game” by Mr Strauss.”
O: Not only that, but refer him to J4G; we have an ever-growing corpus of Game-knowledge here in the archive of posts alone – and that doesn’t include the blogroll or comments!
O.
@Ciaran
Agreed.
Of course there are sexually entitled men out there, but I absolutely disagree with Kimmel’s belief that it’s some kind of society-wide phenomonen.
Of the small slice that are entitled, my guess is the majority are likely guys who have attained regular success, and therefore have come to expect it. But then I’m sure you also have a smaller group of incels like Rodgers who also belive it’s owed to them.
But I can’t think of ever running into the type of “Entitled Nice Guy TM” in real life that constantly gets railed against on the internet. That’s not to say they aren’t out there, but they seem pretty rare from my unscientific observations.
Now, I have run into plenty of nice, polite, inoffensive, and slightly boring guys who might have an occasional expression of frustration, especially after going through their latest romantic defeat… but that’s hardly entitlement (even though feminists and establishment media would have you believe so… apparently the only way to not be entitled is to continually get your ass kicked and smile through it).
I’d liken it to a student who isn’t getting good grades on subjective assignments and essays, even though he’s following the style the teacher has taught him. His frustration isn’t “This is bullshit, I deserve an A”… more like “I don’t get it… I did everything that they told me I was supposed to do, but I still get these shitty grades. I’m not saying I deserve an A or anything, but I wish somebody would give me the honest truth of what I can improve on. This is really frustrating…”
This Rodgers dude strikes me as being of the former mindset… but just about every unsuccessful “nice guy” I’ve run into (including me in my younger years) would fit into the latter group.
Just one man’s observation, but that’s how I’ve seen things.
@Ms. LynM:
“Re#290
That hard for me to comment on. I don’t fully understand the Pareto principle and how it applies to sex in this generation. I would like to read the study myself….if there is one. (I’m kind of convinced that it really sprung from an OK Cupid survey, rather than a legitimate study). In my life I’ve observed that the popular Alpha males and the prettiest females always seem to hook up, leaving the other 80% of male and female wallflowers feeling left behind. It’s probably always been like that, but with social media and promiscuity thrown in……it’s more painfully obvious. What I don’t believe is that 80% of the women and only 20% of the men are having sex.”
O: http://www.justfourguys.com/black-women-must-stop-mating-with-mr-big/
http://www.justfourguys.com/hanbags-4-peace-meets-the-defenders-of-maidan-compare-contrast/
http://www.justfourguys.com/one-of-the-good-guys-a-conversation-about-why-tyrones-world-is-coming-apart/
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2014/05/22/hookinguprealities/tinder-online-dating-or-hooking-up/
https://mobile.twitter.com/tinderfessions
Any questions?
O.
JF12 says:
“#280 if we take what Rodgers wrote at face value, he himself claims that if he had ever had one acual girlfriend then that would have made all the difference.
In a culture like ours where it is now *assumed* correctly that girls will have sex outside marriage, then literally any man who isn’t having sex IS definitely being highly scorned by females. There’s no other way to interpret it any longer. It used to be you could pretend there was chastity etc, but not any more.
There is no solution, since we won’t be going back to patriarchy. Feminism is willing to sacrifice itself on this issue of female choice.”
O: Any questions, Ms. LynM?
O.
Building on my last post… I do have concern that The Cathedral will push the view that any guy expressing any kind of romantic frustration is just steps away from being a violent mass murderer. If we thought backlash against frustrated nice guys was bad enough already, I’m afraid it’s about to get a whole lot worse. Hope I’m wrong, though.
#268
And, of course, Roosh is using this event as yet another opportunity to shit on MRAs. Color me surprised.
@Hollenhundd:
I’m not so sure – after all, Roosh has a powerful point about the AVFM wing of the Manosphere not hesitating to take shots at Rodger and its well know they don’t think tooo highly of the PUA wing of the sphere. Not only that, but Roosh makes a point about the AVFM wing of the movement doesn’t do or have any remedies for guys like Rodger that are tenable and can actually work in the Now.
Comments?
O.
#290
I’m largely in agreement with that.
@Hollenhund 307:
If you’re in agreement with Ciaran 290, what do you make of my response to him at 296? Please explain?
O.
#306
Factually speaking, Roosh is pretty much right – it’s not the job of AVfM to help a lonely, angry guy with Asperger’s improve his dating prospects through careful mentoring and coaching. That’s not what they focus on, it’s not part of their profile. Why should it be? But he just can’t bring himself to say that in a neutral, factual, fair manner. Instead he has to put it like this:
“MRA’s would simply sit him down and detail how male circumcision and male rape by women are the most pressing concerns of men today. They would have given him absolutely no aid on solving his loneliness problem, advocating for him to instead become a victim.”
Is that a fair assessment, giving people benefit of the doubt, is that opinion given in good faith? No. It’s snark, pure and simple. It’s playing AMOG online, designed to cater to his readership by shitting on others.
With respect to the whole MRA vs. PUA brouhaha, I agree with this assessment, especially what he says at the end:
http://0x0014.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/mrapua-hate/
Being a PUA and being an MRA isn’t compatible. It’d be best if these groups kept their distance, but as I can see, it’s largely PUAs who just can’t bring themselves to do this. The reason they can’t is because shitting on other men is integral to their whole identity.
#308
There’s no contradiction. Both of you are pretty much right. This guy could’ve improved his chances and got a girlfriend that some other lonely, angry dude was pining for. He gets lucky and doesn’t become a spree killer whereas that other guy is luckless and just gets more angry. Game can help individual men, but it can’t do shit to change the fundamental fact that 80% of men are pretty much seen by the majority of women as unfuckable in the current SMP. It’s a micro solution, but can never be a macro solution.
@Hollenhund 310:
I am curious: have you read Prof. David Busss’ book The Evolution of Desire? I’ve mentioned it many times over the past year here in this forum alone, have quoted passagges from it, etc. Here’s the link from Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Evolution-Of-Desire-Revised/dp/046500802X
I ask because, your major concern from what I can make out, isn’t due to cultural restructuring, but biological realities. Down through evolutionary history, both animal and human, most males didn’t mate – and a huge reason for that was due to Female Mate Choice. Those males who lacked that which females preferred in a male, didn’t become our ancestors. Blaming the current or any historical environment for this historical evolutionary fact is wrongheaded.
There will always be winners and losers in the mating game, just like all people or animals will not survive. Competition for mates on both sides, is and will continue to be a fact of human mating. Those who arre better prepared to mate and who bring more to the table to offer a mate, while at the same time besting competitors for the same potential mate, can and will prevail over those who bring less, haven’t prepared themselves and lose out to competitors. They must settle for markedly less in a mate, i.e., the leftovers, or worse, risk not mating at all – in which case, one of the outcomes, is what we saw out in Cali over the weekend.
O.
@Hollenhund 309:
While I hear what you’re saying and the link makes some interesting argumentts, it can be just as easily said that the MRA side of the movement is as or even more meanspirited toward PUAs and Game overall. Paul Elam himself has been at the center of such meanspirited attacks on the Game community, and many have rightly pointed out his counterproductive timewasting antics.
The fact remains, despite Roosh’s literary stylings in his characterization of the MRAsphere, that they couldn’t and wouldn’t help Rodger where it mattered, and rather than admit that the PUAs were onto something in this regard, they would be little better help to Rodger than PUAHate. That’s really saying a lot in light of what’s happened.
Finally, I consider myself living proof that it is possible to be both a Gamesman, AND an advocate for the Rights of Men and to be involved in Men’s Issues in our time. There is no contradiction, and I invite you to point them out to me if you think otherwise.
O.
#311
No I haven’t read it. It cannot be found in bookstores where I live. Maybe I’ll order it online, although that’s a bit more complicated here than in the US.
What was your argument with this comment, though? Yes, it’s accurate, but what does it have to do with what I said earlier? Where was I blaming the cultural environment? And for what? The majority of women will always see the bottom 80% of men as sexually undesirable, regardless of cultural environment. The patriarchy didn’t change that either.
@ LynM
“Re#292
That’s good to know. My 22 y.o. son is mildly autistic (not aspergers).. Maybe I’ll buy him the book by “The Game” by Mr Strauss.”
I’m sure you know about resources for autists and have had your son read them.
I only began suspecting that I had autism within the last year and was diagnosed in the last few months, so I’m still reading up on what I can online. When I was doing pickup, there was no PUA community; I had to figure out what worked through trial and error. My biggest problem was relationships; I didn’t have a gf until I was 21.
I recommend suggesting to your son to read posts about Anti-Game first, such as http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/09/23/what-is-anti-game/ One of my comments here had some good Game insights that should prove helpful.
Maybe your son might also take a look at my blog.
As JB noted before, it takes a certain amount of self-centeredness and conveniently narrow focus to label the Rodger’s crime of killing 6 men and 2 women as simply an expression of misogyny.
The thinking process behind his actions is incomprehensible to me. Hiring a call-girl to take the edge off (perhaps for social proof as well) and focusing on pickup practice in venues with higher probability of success seems to be a superior choice, but my guess is hardly informed.
It’s interesting to observe as various groups of interest both within and outside the Manosphere try to pin the blame on their opponents. Politicizing the issue, while understandable, won’t achieve anything with regard to making future causes similar to Rodger less common or dramatic.
I have no problem with politizing this from the MRA perspective.
The subject of responsiblity is an important once. Of course, the killer was responsible for what he’s done, no question about it. It’s silly to blame the manosphere or even the PUAhate guys, as they are just a collection of internet commenters with no power. He selected that forum himself, it wasn’t forced upon him.
Feminists, on the other hand, have the government at their fingertips. Their anti-male laws ARE forced upon everyone. Each time you criminalize something victimless that men do, you apply violence or a threat of violence. So violence begets violence. Of course, it doesn’t justify killing innocent people, or make Rodger not responsible for it. But when asked which side contributes more to these sprees, I know what I will answer.
Feminists like to criminalize male actions that could help them get laid without hurting anyone. They help women achieve power they didn’t earn. If they didn’t have that extra unearned power, their demands wouldn’t be so hard to satisfy, and more men would be attractive enough to them.
I think it’s interesting that he mentioned becoming the alpha male. I believe I mentioned something about it being a bad idea to categorize guys with a scale that makes 99% of them second-class citizens.
The backstory to this, though, is sure to be hidden. I can’t help but wonder if the nut wasn’t a nut because he’s a product of hollywood and liberalism. While we can note that all of the big mass-murderers in recent times were liberal democrats or came from that type of household, I think it’s even more important to consider the possible child abuse issue.
Hollywood’s biggest problem has always been pedophilia and I wonder if this kid wasn’t ass-raped when he was little. He seems really sexualized and fixated on getting a girl, and I wonder if that’s not a reaction to his having been “un-manned” by prior abuse. He feels that getting a woman would make him a man again, but buying a whore would only compound the problem because of the shame of having to “pay for it”.
If anything, it’s another example of how so many little things go into making someone snap. We tend to focus on just one thing when it’s really a totality of many issues coming to a head. It takes a lot of ingredients to make a cake.
@LynM #293,
What I don’t believe is that 80% of the women and only 20% of the men are having sex.
I don’t either, and the sex stats I’ve seen don’t support anything so lopsided. I was using the 20%/80% idea just to argue the point that game may change which men are sexually successful but not necessarily the number of men who are sexually successful.
Some recent stats show young men in their teens and twenties having somewhat less sex than their female peers, which is a reflection of women’s tendency to date older men. But the discrepancy isn’t huge.
#310,
There’s no contradiction. Both of you are pretty much right. This guy could’ve improved his chances and got a girlfriend that some other lonely, angry dude was pining for. He gets lucky and doesn’t become a spree killer whereas that other guy is luckless and just gets more angry.
I agree with that. But to take it further, perhaps Rogers was that other guy who was luckless and getting more angry. He was hating on the PUAs who were getting the women while he, a “magnificent gentleman” was ignored. In other words, he was the guy getting out competed by men with game.
@theasdgamer, Ms. LynM 314:
Let me add to ASD’s link back to his own blog (which, given tthe situation is I think an excellent resource in its own right) the following link to a previous post Han Solo wrote masterfully on the topic of Anti-Game:
http://www.justfourguys.com/antigame-killing-your-chances/
And, I’ve also addressed the matter here:
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/62725/
And, just for bonuses, he can avail himself of more info here:
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/65186
O.
@Ciaran 219:
Please see my response to Hollenhund’s point you’re responding to; I would be very itnerested in reading what you have to say in light of your comment above.
And if that don’t confuse the heck outta ya, you’re an android…or a Vulcan….
LOL
O.
I’m not so sure that Game would have saved this guy. I realize Game is helpful in a multitude of situations, but I feel the Game supporters are leaving out part of their statement. “Game saves lives… if you can pull it off”. That seems to be the most important part to me, the pulling it off part. I believe that’s why PUAhate exists in the first place, isn’t it? A site for guys that know Game but were unable to put it into practice, which would be understandably frustrating to say the least. I believe Game works, if you have the prerequisites needed. No amount of Game is going to help a chubby guy get an attractive women ( that doesn’t have some massive defect that would force her to lower her expectations ).
Another thought that people ought to take into account. Accounts are saying he was rich. False. His dad was rich. Most likely the BMW was daddies along with the other niceties. Add that to Dad being some big Hunger Games producer, and I detect part of his problem was trying to find a girl that would not bring “shame” on his prestigious father. Seeing those type of women throw themselves at douche bags is quite infuriating. On that a lot of us can attest to
Ahhhhhh, 22.
I remember my 22nd birthday.
I came home, walked off the train, and stared at the stars for 20 minutes. It was my last semester of college: I felt I had nothing to live for. No job and no hope of a job with the massive recession really only just starting to bite. No girlfriend, no girls I was even talking to on a regular basis anymore. No friends, at that point, either…I had been on a self-destructive spiral for months, and my friends had, at that point, abandoned me.
No one wants to touch that kind of crazy.
So, alone on my birthday, riding the train home from college, I decided to just stare at the stars. I had a lucid dream the night before, and was afraid of going to them…might die with no oxygen and all…today I thought “so what’s the big deal?”
20 minutes in a Chicago winter.
I got in my car, and drove home (I spent my college years at home to disassociate myself from college, actually), where my entire extended family was waiting to celebrate with me. I think it was a Tuesday that year…my extended family all drove over an hour, just to celebrate with me on my birthday.
Somehow, I still felt alone. I sat in the car and cried for a good 15 minutes, until my aunt came out, noticed I was finally home. I decided to go in then, because people would start to ask questions, why I was waiting outside.
22 hurts a lot, for a certain kind of UMC man. You are graduating, and ready to put aside childhood things and enter the real-world. Only the real-world is rejecting you, hard, and you never had a childhood to speak of. It’s as if Spaceship Earth is heading towards some sort of utopian, Eloi future, all together, and proudly proclaiming its unity, irrespective of race, religion, or political creed…
And then everyone, uniformly, looks on you, wrinkles their nose, and wishes they could vent you out into cold space.
Kind of uncomfortable.
It took, I say, about another two years, to get anything close to right after that. Those were unpleasant, extremely dark times.
And part of that did have to do with my girl problems.
This young man is indeed a narcissist. That comes out in everything he says. His rage comes from not being the best, and as previously mentioned, there is not much of a cure for that. He needs to mature, and learn to handle his narcissistic rage with a healthy dose of humility.
Perhaps a Girl could help him with that. It is easier to lay down the mantle of society’s expectations, when you have a personal castle and a warm hearth to which you may return. For a man still on the front-lines, it is difficult to take off the extreme psychological battle-armor. Same for women, hence the whole “be vulnerable” shtick.
Perhaps, then, Game could have saved him. Who knows. I fear any woman he dated would have fallen short of expectations on occasion. Not Fear. Know. A young woman should not be subjected to that kind of violent man.
As for me, well, I couldn’t comment on this post until now…Friday night dance classes (might have to go visit Gamer for some tips one of these weekends), Saturday night hosted a dinner party (and everyone felt like one of the cool kids!), Sunday shopping for a new mattress because a full is too damn small when the Fiance sleeps in the MIDDLE OF THE GODDAM BED.
But these are good problems to have, compared to 22 year old ADBG, or 22 year old Elliot, or the innocent victims who died at the hands of a megalomaniac.
Thanks, Game, for giving me Good Problems.
#317 the sexual abuse thing is a possibility. His mother raised him to be a sissy: it’s what she wanted him to be. And Rodgers seems fixated on the sexiness of his father’s male friends, and had crushes on guys like Max.
I have no problem with him using game to help himself, and I think to minimize the mental health aspect of his situation is deeply troubling. I must admit, I’m skeptical, though, of the claim that if he could have only had one date, he might have avoided the rampage.
As others might have mentioned, his mental illness and Aspergers seemed overwhelming and might have had a detrimental effect on whatever he might have tried to do, arguments about baby steps notwithstanding.
For example, he hoped his youtube videos might have attracted women. Huh??? Now I don’t know whether all the videos mentioned his interest in violence and punishment, but even without that, his presentation demonstrated that something was not right with him emotionally and mentally.
It is not surprising he got no responses at all. He was obsessive; if he even went on a date, I could see him acting in a way that would make the woman he was with run off for the sake of her own safety. I can just imagine it. If she didn’t fulfill his ideal of what a “date” should look like, or if she didn’t go out with him again, he would be ready to snap. Or if she did go out with him one or more times, he could easily develop an obsession over her that would have been scary.
Re: 302
O, I read your comment after I got up. I quickly read through the sites you gave me…..I’ll do a better job after my 2nd cup of coffee. I guess what I’m wondering is if the Pareto principle (20% of something effects the other 80%) is being used on the social scene after 1000s of men report this phenomenon …or if there was an objective study done by the APA, NIH, the Kinsey institute, or a poll by Gallup etc.. I would have to admit, a study researching the sex lives of 2000 college students would be hard to pull off. Dishonesty would be an issue, as well identifying the participants in re to who slept with whom.
Also curious about female incels? Are they out there as well? Is it a case that if they can’t have Mr Big….forget it….they won’t have anybody? Or just nobody wants them. I’ve known a few 30, 40, ,50, and 60 y.o. Virgins
#319 as others have said, you’re mixing the micro solution with the macro. Remember the little church bulletin story about thousands of starfish dying on a beach and a boy picking up some and flinging them back into the water? It doesn’t matter to saving one that you can’t save them all.
The fact that one boy becomes more successful with women than he otherwise would does not negate the fact that thousands more will die on that beach.
There are really only two ultimate macro solutions:
1. lifelong monogamy, which is dead/dying
2. harems and eunuchs, and Game helps *forstall* this inevitability
#323 “stared at the stars for 20 minutes”
What did you see? Any visuals?
@ Obsidian #296,
We both have agreed that Game is at best, a micro-solution best suited for the individual Man, not the society at large, for all the reasons that are well known and largely accepted throughout the Manosphere.
Yes, and that was my point really. If mating is like a game of musical chairs, some men are going to be left standing when the music stops. Game may have helped Rodgers find a seat, but then another man would have been left standing. And perhaps that guy would have been a better shot.
All it will achieve is to screen out the more inept Gamesmen – the better ones, who will have the added “bump” of conventional attractiveness, will make it through just fine.
Agreed, although this makes the same point as well. Even if all men have game, some will do it better than others. Those who can’t do it well will see no results. In fact, Rodgers may have been one of those men who tried game without success, hence his participation in PUAHate.
#311 Down through evolutionary history, both animal and human, most males didn’t mate – and a huge reason for that was due to Female Mate Choice. Those males who lacked that which females preferred in a male, didn’t become our ancestors. Blaming the current or any historical environment for this historical evolutionary fact is wrongheaded.
Apparently the research that Buss based his conclusions on – that only 40% of men reproduced while 80% of women did – has been superseded by more recent research that indicates that the ratio wasn’t that bad for men. And there were other reasons besides mate choice that prevented some men from reproducing – many more men than today died in warfare or accidents.
That said, I agree that there are always winners and losers in the SMP. However, many societies have worked to minimize the number of losers, because these losers are a dangerous and destabilizing influence, as we’ve seen here. So most societies around the world have put a lot of pressure on both men and women to pair up, regardless of whether they are attracted to each other or not. In many cases, the young couples didn’t even have a say in the matter. But today, we’ve taken all those constraints off, with the consequence that there are more SMP losers than in the recent past.
So I think my point stands – that game may change which men have sexual success, but it doesn’t necessarily change how many men have sexual success. Your thoughts?
@Ms. LynM:
“Re: 302
O, I read your comment after I got up. I quickly read through the sites you gave me…..I’ll do a better job after my 2nd cup of coffee. I guess what I’m wondering is if the Pareto principle (20% of something effects the other 80%) is being used on the social scene after 1000s of men report this phenomenon …or if there was an objective study done by the APA, NIH, the Kinsey institute, or a poll by Gallup etc.. I would have to admit, a study researching the sex lives of 2000 college students would be hard to pull off. Dishonesty would be an issue, as well identifying the participants in re to who slept with whom.
Also curious about female incels? Are they out there as well? Is it a case that if they can’t have Mr Big….forget it….they won’t have anybody? Or just nobody wants them. I’ve known a few 30, 40, ,50, and 60 y.o. Virgins.”
O: My personal opinion that a “Female Incel” is an oxymoron, for reasons that have to do with the inherent asymetric realities of the sexual marketplace: Women are the more choosier sex, which makes them want less of it than do Men, on average. Moreover, down through human evolutionary history, there have been three times as many bachelors as spinsters, and this continues to be the case today throughout the world. When Women are celibate it is almost always because they choose to be – this is completely different from Men, who are celibate due to involuntary reasons or circumstances…hence the term.
As for the 20/80 question: my guess, based on my anecdotal observations and reading the accounts of thousands of Men over the years, is that it is very real, but, that it will be highly unlikely that the NIH, et al, will study it. Simply put, the culture isn’t attuned to male interests and needs and won’t do anything to go against the prevailing grain of feminine ones.
O.
Right PVW. All those pictures and videos instantly give off a “faker” vibe to me, it must absolutely peg the female creep-o-meter. In real life, it’s probably detectable two miles away.
#327,
No, if you read more carefully, I am distinguishing the micro from the macro. I think we both agree that game is a micro solution, not a macro solution.
#326 No, there really aren’t female incels, and the reason isn’t complicated: almost any woman can charge for it. Remember Sinead O’Connor pretending she had a hard time finding a man to be interested in her? Of course in reality, always, always, always, always, say it with me AWALT, always the problem is finding a man she is interested in.
@Ciaran:
” Yes, and that was my point really. If mating is like a game of musical chairs, some men are going to be left standing when the music stops. Game may have helped Rodgers find a seat, but then another man would have been left standing. And perhaps that guy would have been a better shot.”
O: But that’s the nature of the mating game beast, especially one in which Female Mate Choice is recognized and protected by custom and law, which is definitely the case in our time; what do you propose be done in light of this?
O.
@Obsidian #321,
O, our convo is all cross threaded! I’ll come back in a couple of hours and see if I can untangle it.
@Ciaran:
” Agreed, although this makes the same point as well. Even if all men have game, some will do it better than others. Those who can’t do it well will see no results. In fact, Rodgers may have been one of those men who tried game without success, hence his participation in PUAHate.”
O: Perhaps – but what we don’t know is whether he indeed did attempt to learn Game and failed at it, or if he merely read some materials and decided that he had no shot, etc. Roosh’s point, which I wholeheartedly agree with, is that Rodger could have been personally coached.
O.
@ O, Ciaran
As Miss Stephanie has pointed out, when confronted by new techniques such as game, women eventually develop countermeasures to restore their selectivity to its previous high level.
Where is there any hard evidence for women developing countermeasures?
Let’s examine a hypothetical scenario about women’s selectivity. It’s a small club and only two women and two men are there: Hawtie, Hottie, Mr. Big, and Mr. Big-Enough. Mr. Big matches up with Hawtie and leaves. Now, Mr. Big-Enough doesn’t generate quite the level of tingles that Mr. Big did, but he generates quite a lot anyway. Does Hottie pine for Mr. Big or does she match up with Mr. Big-Enough, recognizing that the alternative is sleeping with cats? If men can generate enough tingles, that is the key point, not women’s selectivity, it seems to me. This then would give hope to men that learning Game might up their chances for matching.
O, thx for the props.
#332 ok. We agree Game is a marginal solution. The dire night Game warnings, about locking up your wives and daughters, from more than a decade ago haven’t panned out, primarily because those wives and daughters who would have been susceptible to night Game sitting in a pickup bar WOULD have been picked up, Game or not, by somebody anyway.
As Obsidian has emphasized, the reason for these Pareto-like ratios is *strictly* due to limitations on female libido. One girl sitting in a bar with ten guys is about the normal ratio. Game just ups the micro chances with her of some one guy there; the rising tide doesn’t float all their boats since she’s only going home with one.
Hence, one *macro* solution is to raise the tide of female libido e.g. with medication.
@Obsidian #321,
Our convo is so cross threaded that I’m confused. I’ll try to sort it out when I come back later today.
#293
“That hard for me to comment on. I don’t fully understand the Pareto principle and how it applies to sex in this generation. …What I don’t believe is that 80% of the women and only 20% of the men are having sex.”
That’s not what the Pareto principle means. It means that 20% of (hetero) men are having 80% of the sex i.e. 80% of all sexual acts of intercourse.
@Ciaran:
” Apparently the research that Buss based his conclusions on – that only 40% of men reproduced while 80% of women did – has been superseded by more recent research that indicates that the ratio wasn’t that bad for men. And there were other reasons besides mate choice that prevented some men from reproducing – many more men than today died in warfare or accidents.”
O: Agreed – something which Buss himself has indeed taken into account. I would be very interested in seeing the source for the updated DNA evidence; if you have it, by all means please post it up? Thanks!
“That said, I agree that there are always winners and losers in the SMP. However, many societies have worked to minimize the number of losers, because these losers are a dangerous and destabilizing influence, as we’ve seen here. So most societies around the world have put a lot of pressure on both men and women to pair up, regardless of whether they are attracted to each other or not. In many cases, the young couples didn’t even have a say in the matter. But today, we’ve taken all those constraints off, with the consequence that there are more SMP losers than in the recent past.”
O: Again, agreed – and it really comes down to which ideology we want to uphold around questions of human mating: do we want to go back (which was never the case in the States to begin with; I discuss this point citing the researches of Charles Murray, throughout my “Tyrone” series) to a system of arranged marriages and dowries/brideprices – or do we want to continue to current assortative mating, “love matches”? If the latter, and given what we know about Female Mate Choice aided and abetted by the State, we can expect more and more Men to be left out (and that’s not even including socioeconomic factors, etc.). From what I can tell, these kinds of questions aren’t even on the radar – everything is geared toward putting those who offend, real or perceived, behind bars or worse.
“So I think my point stands – that game may change which men have sexual success, but it doesn’t necessarily change how many men have sexual success. Your thoughts?”
O: I’m inclined to agree – we really are in a kind of Sexual Marketplace Dystopia, where the rich keep getting richer and a smaller percentage of them at that…
O.
#334
“what do you propose be done in light of this?”
I know this wasn’t directed to me, but my answer is: nothing. Nothing can be realistically done about it. Bringing the patriarchy back isn’t feasible in any sense. That’s what men need to understand. And they’ll never learn this from the mainstream media, their parents or the church.
#336
“Roosh’s point, which I wholeheartedly agree with, is that Rodger could have been personally coached.”
Well, Introverted Playboy, who has experience in this area, said it probably wouldn’t have worked.
Lyn: “I guess what I’m wondering is if the Pareto principle (20% of something effects the other 80%) is being used on the social scene after 1000s of men report this phenomenon …or if there was an objective study done by the APA, NIH, the Kinsey institute, or a poll by Gallup etc..”
Easy.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr036.pdf
Table 1 and 2 really put a hole in the theory that a small portion of men hook up with a large portion of women.
It does, however, shows you that only 15% of men can pull off high N… if more men could, pull it off you’d see it more like 95%. (That’s why there is porn, each new video represents a mate that he would like, but can’t have.)
You can also see that the celibate, there is more men than women, but not by some giant number, only a few points.
RE: Black incels going on rampages.
I’m commenting without reading everything and without looking to see.
But I’m going to throw it out that this is less of an issue in the US (at least in my uninformed perception that it is “less” an issue) because no one is telling black men they own the world and run everything and that everything is set up for their convenience and benefit and is just being handed to them because of their race and gender.
It seems possible that the violent incel thing is being expressed earlier via gangs and crime and so on before it can become something like Rodgers. Black men are killing other black men and not white women so… meh. (Not my attitude just my perception of the zeitgeist. I’m totally on board with the thoughts here that the black community has been the canary in the coal mine.)
i.e.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pH9tpL6lDw
@Hollenhund:
” #334
“what do you propose be done in light of this?”
I know this wasn’t directed to me, but my answer is: nothing. Nothing can be realistically done about it. Bringing the patriarchy back isn’t feasible in any sense. That’s what men need to understand. And they’ll never learn this from the mainstream media, their parents or the church.”
O: Well, alrighty then! Thanks or being so very helpful!
O.
@Frimmel 345:
Excellent observations – and I want to ask all my Black readers for whom Black Incels are a concern, to please keep an eye out on the Black Media and Internet to see if they cover this issue at all; please reoirt anythng you find back here on this thread, and/or contact me directly at theobsidianfiles@hotmail.com. If they DON’T cover the issue of Black Incels, aggain, let me know!
Also: Black Incels, this is a safe space for YOU, to speak out and be heard. Your personal narrative and story is very important to us here at J4G. Please feel free to use this thread to tell your story, or if you want to do it on the quiet please feel free to contact me directly. We’re going to get to the bottom of this issue, I promise you.
Brothas gonna work it out…
O.
#346
Yes. I’m actually being helpful. No, really.
After all, are you proposing young men should be told something else? Like, what? That the patriarchy and assortive mating can be brought back? That there’s someone out there for everyone? The lies are more destructive than the truth.
#345
Maybe the kind of black men who’d have become incels had already been removed from the gene pool one way or another.
#345 “It seems possible that the violent incel thing is being expressed earlier via gangs and crime and so on before it can become something like Rodgers. ”
An interesting point. And in Rodgers case, anyway, video games did not substitute for expressions of violence.
@Hollenhund 343:
Well, with all due respect to IP, I respectfully disagree, and would roll with Roosh’s expertise and experience in these matters, over vast distances in numerous foreign countries, over IP’s, who’s expertise,breadth of experience, et al, do not compare. Just sayin…
O.
#351
Wait a minute…Roosh has done personal coaching?
@Hollenhund 348:
“Yes. I’m actually being helpful. No, really.
After all, are you proposing young men should be told something else? Like, what? That the patriarchy and assortive mating can be brought back? That there’s someone out there for everyone? The lies are more destructive than the truth.”
O: Yea, I hear ya. I feel where you’re coming from and on some levels, you do make some legit points. It’s just that I cant get with the nihilistic takee on things you often give off HH. I’m just sayin. I’ve seen guys make the best of things and actually find some happiness in this world, despite all the bad things happening in it, and that’s what I want to trty to focus on here with J4G, and I think I can speak for the rest of the team. That does NOT mean that we sugarcoat anything – you know we don’t – but the line of argument you’re pursuing wouldn’t help the Rodger’s or Arpagus’ of the world – it would just make matters worse.
O.
@Hollenhund 352:
Yes, he has; didn’t you read his article he put out over at ROK? I’ve known this for years.
O.
OTC #344
Thanks for the link. I’ll go through when I have a little time. 36 pages of CDC research will take some mental fortitude and a pot of coffee.
Why is the one sex-positive macro solution, i.e. female libido increase via medication, so off the table?
@JF12:
It’s been tried already, to the tune of several hundred million dollars of R&D money; the book “A Bilion Wicked Thoughts” explains how and why Big Pharma failed in trying to create a “Viagra for Women” and why such a thing is well-nigh impossible.
O.
#344
“Table 1 and 2 really put a hole in the theory that a small portion of men hook up with a large portion of women.”
How exactly?
The only thing we can surely conclude from table 1 is that 97% of all American men who were 25-44 yrs old at the time of the survey (2006-2008) had vaginal intercourse at least once in their lives. Yes, that includes men who had sex once in their lives. And this is assuming none of them lied when giving answers.
How does that prove that more than a small portion of men hook up with a large portion of women? Table 2 doesn’t have proof of that either.
Yeah, I know, I’m supposed to examine the other tables as well. No need to point that out.
#353
Yeah, I’m probably a nihilist. If you don’t like it, ban me. Or…maybe I’m just a realist. It’s probably a matter of perspective. Yes, we can tell men to make the best of things and find happiness in this world, but this won’t do sh*t to change the fact that, yes, a big, and probably growing segment of men are bound to be losers in the current SMP.
@Hollenhund 359:
LOL, relax. No one’s gonna ban you, in fact, I for one actually like you a lot, and always have, although we’ve had our disagreements over the years.
Wow, has it been that long that we’ve known each other? Whew!
Again: I don’t deny many of the points you make. Many of them are indeed accurate and legitimate.
But, on a personal level, there ARE things a Man CAN doo to make things just a weebit easier on himself. He can’t save or change the world, but he can save and change himself.
I’m very intereste to know a bit about how you’re handling things in your own life, HH? I mean, have you found Game to be helpful to you, and if so/not, how and why?
O.
#360
I’m still at a point where I can’t really be bothered. I downloaded a couple of PUA manuals but I have yet to read them. I have time-consuming hobbies and I’m just probably too lazy, and I hate using condoms, which isn’t exactly an incentive to go out more regularly to hit on women. And many girls are too fat and/or difficult to deal with anyways. However, I’m at a point where more and more of my friends are either getting married or entering LTRs, and more and more general expectation will be placed on me to finally man up, stop fooling around and get into a serious LTR with a “nice” girl, so things will probably have to change if I’m to seriously care about my social status and whatnot. It kind of feels like a chore at this point, like getting a job and learning to drive. I’m not terribly sure I’d actually want to live with a woman, or even spend lengthy periods of time with one.
@Hollenhund 361:
Hmm. Thanks for responding! If it’s OK with you, I’d like to followup a bit on what you’ve said.
First, you’re in Hungary, right? If not, what country are you in? I ask because I’ve found that this matters considerably as to the conditions on the ground and the “talent” in a given locale (H/T: Roosh).
I’d like for you to please describe your locale and situation with the ladies for the rest of the fellas reading along; I thnk they would learn quite a bit from that. Also:
What kind of Game/PUA materials have you downloaded? And why those particular titles?
What kind of hobbies are you into, and why? I think this is something else that is very important for the fellas to read about: the importance of having an avocation.
I’ll hold here. Thanks!
O.
2 opinions, both may not sit well with others. I also do not condone what he did.
Regarding black incels. I don’t believe they exist, or if the do its a super small number to be negligible. Why you may ask? Well cause they have a myth working in their favor. You all know which one that is as well. All a “brotha” ( I’m simply using the vernacular to convey an idea ) has to do is have a bit of confidence, walk up to some white girl and act like the AMOG. He plays up the myth and boom, ONS. Now granted, science has debunked this myth, but the media and other black men keep it alive. If he is in a place where he is around other white guys, it just puts his chances higher. And yes, this phenomenon does irritate me and other guys I know.
Second part. Someone asked what can be done up thread, my answer is: this kid thought what he did was the answer. Guys like him want respect and validation, especially from women. But only the top 20% roughly get that respect. Since that option is off the table for him, that leaves 2 options: fear or being forced to hear the condescending laughter of ones social group directed at you. He chose the fear option. And he probably thought he was fixing this problem we are discussing. In his mind I imagine this type of inner thinking, ” well if I can get them to like and want me, I will have them fear me. If women had to consider whether or not their approval would cause a mass murder rampage, they would be forced to consider non 20% guys out of sheer fear for their lives. Again, I don’t condone it, but, as I study psychology for fun, it seems like the most logical solution for this disturbed individual.
As far as what can be done to restore something resembling balance?
You’d have to cut back on the welfare state and eliminate no-fault divorce.
Many people talk about the “Sexual Marketplace” and then don’t look at it from an economic standpoint. But once you do, the “real” problem becomes obvious.
It’s not just that women are freed up to chase alphas because of the loss of social opprobrium, it’s that most of your beta/gamma males have been priced out of the market entirely.
O, you’ve remarked on this as it applies to your personal situation – that women are better off being wards of the state and babymammas to however many Mr. Bigs they can get. But that applies almost universally.
So between the “You go grrl” feminist movement, the demands that women be given preferential treatment in admissions and employment, alimony/child-support usually flowing from the man to the woman after a frivorce, and the ability to always fall back on the state (a proxy for beta bucks if there ever was one), there is literally NO reason a modern woman should ever give it up to a beta/gamma male unless he’s Bill Gates rich.
#357 The brute force physiological attempts to increase female libido merely make women into men, if they work at all. But the “monogamy drug” solution does seem to work on women qua women, by targeting brain timing and arousal patterns.
http://www.lybrido.nl/background
Basically, extremely low-dose testosterone followed by a time-delayed (of a couple hours later, according to the manfacturer, but I think that is too long) extremely low dose viagra makes a woman feel like the man she is with is arousing to her. I think the time delay is the patented “secret”.
#361 “It kind of feels like a chore at this point, like getting a job and learning to drive.”
Rodgers felt the same way.
Lyn: It’s a bunch of pages, but not dense reading.
#362
Yes, I’m from Hungary and still live there. I’m thinking about emigrating to Austria/Germany though because the overall situation here is crap. Haven’t made any real preparations yet, but in all likelihood I’ll drag my ass there next year.
The SMP here is a pretty much a cesspool, which is one reason why the stuff I read about in the ‘sphere reinforces my experiences. Did you know that Hungarian women have been routinely told by their menfolk that they’re the most beautiful on the entire planet? Yes, it’s so beta I don’t even know what to say. The reality is different. I read about a survey last year which found that Hungary has the highest rate of female obesity in Europe. And it’s probably accurate. The overall female quality here is anything but impressive. And the legal environment is just as bad, not to mention the fact that modern feminism permeates the culture and the media as well. There’s a thriving PUA subculture here but it isn’t getting any mainstream exposure – in all likelihood, there’s even less mainstream tolerance for that stuff than in the US.
When I started reading the ‘sphere I realized I’ve been hearing the same usual complaints from the media here all the time: men are sleazy jerks who don’t want to commit, don’t want to care about their children, they always want to trade up, they treat women like crap etc.
I’ve downloaded The Game, the Art of Seduction and the Mystery Method. That’s pretty much it.
I’m a co-author of a blog about politics. I won’t give you the URL because it’d make it easier for others to track me down. And it’s in Hungarian anyway. Writing is something I found I enjoy doing, which is why I’m thinking of doing at least one guest post here. I’m also an airsoft player and have recently developed an interest in military-themed mecha manga & anime. No, I don’t care how lame that sounds. If I were born Japanese I’d probably be an otaku by now. Many people used to praise my drawing skills when I was younger but I lost interest in that afterwards. Maybe I should re-focus on it and not let whatever skills I still have go to waste.
Adding fuel to the spark of ferrum’s speculations, Elliot did not look like his mother Li Chin
http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article3608578.ece/alternates/s510b/Chin-Rodger.jpg
but does look a lot like his stepmother Soumaya
http://www.agencebesse.com/assets/artiste-photos-profil/_resampled/SetHeight500-Soumaya-Akaaboune-2.jpg
Apparently BOTH his mother and stepmother encouraged him to sissify himself.
@Ciaran
Imagine if every man made every effort to employ intense anti-game.
You would still have a hierarchy of attractiveness, based on looks, status, etc. But we know that good-looking, rich guys can kill attraction in women via their neediness, awkwardness, and other forms of anti-game…and that has nothing to do directly with him being or not being in the 20%. Simply, he’s doing stuff that absolutely turns her off.
So, I think that if every man employed anti-game to the best of their ability that very few men would be found attractive anymore. Sure, you might get some attraction still happening, where female 3’s are attracted to the previous male 10’s.
But I think most women would stop being attracted to the previous 8-10 males because of their intense anti-game.
This suggests that there is some absoluteness in female attraction. I also believe there is a relative component as well–so there’s a mix of both things.
Now reverse this. Men collectively becoming more attractive–removing their anti-game and adding some positive features–won’t change the relative side of things but it will create more men that are NOT actively killing her attraction anymore.
My opinion is that women have a mix of attraction signals that are partly relative and partly quasi-absolute (though you could argue that to some extent they’re culturally dependent) and so men collectively improving themselves will create more men that women will find attractive, though the most attractive will still benefit from the relative portion of female attraction triggers.
Also, look at the patriarchy of 100’s of years ago where society collectively elevated men in some ways and restricted women to some extent (e.g. “That’s not woman’s work” for those things that could be done by some women). This served to add maybe a point of marriage value to every man and thus helped more men cross the threshold of “good enough” for far more women than today.
So I think female attraction triggers are a mix of relative and absolute.
Thoughts?
About the only thing that can be usefully said about Rodger requires considerably more knowledge of mental health than is now available.
Discussing this clown’s trigger is a waste of time. The issue of I deserve….isn’t restricted to this kind of jerk.
What of a black kid fifteen years old who watches rap videos and sees fake thugs awash in bling, money and 10s? He acts like a thug but he doesn’t have what it seems he’s supposed to have. Could trigger one of the less balanced.
A gay man whose idea of the gay scene in Manhattan may be accurate, or perhaps grossly overstated, but it’s not now things are in Ottumwa, thinks It’s Out There Somewhere but he’s being unfairly held back….
Other than Rodger being on the outside of whatever it is, being misinformed about the inside of whatever it is, and hating it, the writing about this case is more an ink blot test for those writing about it.
@han can you give some concrete examples, like maybe 3-5 examples of relative vs absolute traits?
And agreed 100% that eliminating anti game and working on factors one can control a man can increase his results.
Same for women, eliminating I attractive behaviors plus making the most of her strengths will improve her results.
There are lots of happy couples who aren’t both 9s or whatnot. Is that what you mean?
* Eliminating unattractive I mean, darn autocorrect!
@Bloom
The relative theory of female attraction says that females will feel attracted to the top 20% (or whatever) of men. You could take 100 male 10s and put them on an island with 100 women and the women will find a way to rank the 100 men and only the top 20 will be found attractive.
The absolute theory would say that since they are male 10’s that all 100 men would still be found attractive.
I’m saying that reality is a mix of these 2 theories.
Absolute traits are things like:
1) Looks
2) Charisma
3) Height
4) Wealth
5) Athleticism
6) Humor
7) Confidence
8) Social intelligence
9) Intelligence
10) Status (though this is conferred by other people and is to some extent relative to other people so it is not a pure absolute trait)
All of these things can be rated by a woman and different men will have relatively more or less of them. So the men who have more of what is valued by women and less of what is repulsive will be more attractive.
The question is: do women feel attraction only on a relative comparison or is their some absolute component to it as well? Is it only the top 10 or 20% that can ever inspire true attraction or if you had a body of men all having fairly similar levels of absolute traits could more than 20% inspire attraction (in the case where the positive traits are present) or ~0% inspire attraction (where the positive traits are absent)?
I’m of the opinion that if you had 100 men that all had terrible anti-game (or acted that way) that most of them would no longer be found attractive. The top 20% of men always being found attractive would no longer hold up.
Likewise if all the men had the absolute traits then I contend that more than the top 20% would be found attractive, though due to the relative component of female attraction, it’s possible that only 70% or 30% or whatever (depending on how strong the absolute traits were present, and the difference in SMV between the men and the women) would be found attractive.
I don’t hold that it’s ALWAYS the top X% of men that are found attractive independent of the absolute traits they have.
@Obsidian 334;
O: But that’s the nature of the mating game beast, especially one in which Female Mate Choice is recognized and protected by custom and law, which is definitely the case in our time; what do you propose be done in light of this?
I think we basically agree. And I agree we aren’t going back to some system of compulsory marriages, unless society really goes off the rails. But I do think certain palliative measures can be taken, and these are primarily economic and political.
The well being of the common man must be improved, because a big part of the problem is that women still want to be provisioned, and the common man isn’t capable of that in today’s economy. The system of incentives which favor women from kindergarten through Ph.D. in education and throughout the working could be changed. Trade and tax policies could be changed to keep more manufacturing jobs at home. Economic policies that favor employment over capital growth could be instituted. Social programs that redistribute money from men to women could be curtailed or made more gender neutral in their distribution.
To do all these things requires strong political representation, and the common man has none. The left is for women, gays, minorities (as minorities, not as men), and other groups, and pushes for greater redistribution rather than greater employment. The right protects the interests of the wealthy and the social conservatives, and distracts the common man with social issues to hide that they’re screwing him with their economic policies.
TLDR, my answer is we need a populist political movement that focuses on the economic betterment of the common man and the elimination of incentives that favor women over men. Whether that comes from the left or the right of the political spectrum, I don’t care.
Perhaps I should rename myself Captain Obvious for this one, but y’all have noticed that since the finding that Rodgers killed more men than women, a lot of the noise that “he’s like the PUAs and MRAs who want to kill women!” noise has died way down. Daily Kos has not revisited the story, except for its regular “pundit round-up” which cites to more nuanced takes on Rodgers and what he did, focusing on gun violence and mental illness issues.
@Ciaran
The social hierachy is currently (creating very broad categories):
Top males
Female herd
Herd-following average and lower males
So the politicians pander to the top two groups. Since there are enough males that will side politically with the female herd then it makes it very difficult to enact anything that goes against the female herd–and thus why it’s so important WHO is creating the narrative that leads the female herd (and often that narrative goes against the interests of many females but because of their innate desire to be part of the herd/group they conform).
Of course, those 3 categories are far too simplistic (you can divide it further into single women and racial minority women that tend to vote left and married white women that vote more right and so forth).
What is the solution? It’s hard to get men to band together because most men are herd-following pussy beggars. But I think some progress can be made.
The democrats have basically abandoned working men and favor pro-female and pro-environmental and pro-illegal-immigrant policies that harm working class black and other race men by inflating the labor pool and destroying the jobs they could have. Republicans have contributed to this as well by their global trade endeavours (supported by dems like Bill Clinton).
If a populist republican could stop pandering so much to the rich, he could possibly start to point out how dems are actually hurting low-class men and draw them over more. Black male voters (not speaking of females) are such a captive voting bloc to dems and the race baiters just rile them up to keep voting D that the dems actually don’t DO anything to really help them.
I think there is room to peal away some lower-class black and latino men (though it will be hard due to all the built in inertia) from the left and also some women that are starting to realize that feminism isn’t benefiting a lot of women.
Basically, I think that the Rs should stop pandering to the rich so much and become more populist. I don’t like Wall Street much at all, personally, though I’m more a mix of conservative and libertarian.
Since there’s little that the Ds offer that I couldn’t get from the libertarian side of things and I see the Ds as fully engaged in promoting female superiority and race baiting I won’t offer any suggestions for what they could do because they would have to basically repudiate 1/2 or more of what they stand for.
@Fred Flange 376:
Yup – the MSM/Cathedral now has to contend with a new player in town: the Men’s Issues Media, aka the Manosphere, and we ain’t no joke.
Daily Kos and other outlets were inundated with vociferous and speedy, rapid response from the denizens of the ‘sphere, many of whom were citizen journos in their own right, having small blogs and tumblrs in their own right, as well as other social media (for the record, I’m NOT a fan of Faceboook, but will continue using them for now; I’m morea fan of Twitter – follow J4G @j4guys and yours truly @ObsidianFiles!), and they were able to immediately put the kabosh on DK and Elizabeth Park over at PolicyMic, et al. The big players, like the Spearhead, AVFM and ROK, have now weighed in as well, backing the foot soliders up.
And of course, we’ve got our own thang here at J4G.
So yea the Cathedral knows that it can’t put out BSery without hearing from the ‘s[here emasse – and that is a beautiful thing, indeed…
O.
@ Bloom
There are lots of happy couples who aren’t both 9s or whatnot.
Are you considering looks for the man and looks for the woman? Surely you remember that looks in a man aren’t terribly important in computing a man’s SMV? I’m not sure what method you are using to rate a man in one of your happy relationships or whether you’re rating him based on his SMV or his MMV.
Also, couples match for a LTR based on MMV more than SMV.
#377
Brazil is your future:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dIZ83nXNUk4/UgAaRDW38HI/AAAAAAAAHnI/zOtZ5eaoZIw/s1600/rich-and-poor.jpg
@Han Solo #370
My opinion is that women have a mix of attraction signals that are partly relative and partly quasi-absolute (though you could argue that to some extent they’re culturally dependent) and so men collectively improving themselves will create more men that women will find attractive, though the most attractive will still benefit from the relative portion of female attraction triggers.
I definitely agree, particularly with the anti-game part. A lot of men have been conditioned to do the opposite of what they need to do to be attractive to women.
I also think that women as a whole are hypergamous, but not as much as the ‘sphere makes them out to be. (I think a lot of what’s called ‘hypergamy’ is just aspirational desires, which both men and women do.) So there’s more opportunity for assortative mating than the ‘sphere thinks there is, but many men are being held back by anti-game (on the micro level) and by economic and political disincentives (on the macro level).
@ Han Solo #377,
What is the solution? It’s hard to get men to band together because most men are herd-following pussy beggars. But I think some progress can be made.
Perhaps game is a pre-requisite to political representation!
Basically, I think that the Rs should stop pandering to the rich so much and become more populist. I don’t like Wall Street much at all, personally, though I’m more a mix of conservative and libertarian.
I’m with you there. Here’s a sign that someone in the GOP is thinking the same: GOP Looks Forward with New Agenda for Poor and Middle Class. And in Europe, the populist parties are having a resurgence. Although my fear is that a populist movement would soon get tarred with the ‘racism’ accusation unless they made a strong effort to include the needs of the black and latino working class, which the R’s have not been good at doing.
@Ciaran:
What you’re leaving out is the very real fact that the overall quality of Women has gotten markedly worse since even the latter 90s – less than two decades ago(!). This is expressed in obesity rates Ratchtism rates, OOOW birthrates, bad attitude rates, and so forth. To me, that is the biggest story comng out of all of this, and the only segment of the New Media that puts a light on it at all, to say nothing of consistently discussing it, is us (and I’ll include Tommy Sotomayor here as well). It’s a topic that I have every intention of hammering with Mjolnir until it’s clealy understood.
O.
@Han:
The solution, both at the political and social level (read: where we are), is for MWBs (Men With Backbones) to come foward, because as you rightly note, far tooo many Men are either cowed into silence or are Booty Beggars who are still plugged into the Matrix and wiill fight you tooth and nail to stay that way. We have got to step into the gap and fight fight fight like mad to change the dymanic and force the other side to change their calculus; in basketball, the goal isn’t to stop the other side from scoring – a really good squad is going to score – the goal is to get them to CHANGE THEIR SHOT – and we’re beginning to get them to do that.
We just gotta keep the Heat On…
O.
Let’s hope that more of that agenda for the poor and middle class comes through.
Also, although the D’s favor higher taxes, nominally against the rich, many of the plutocrats are actually D’s and can get favorable treatment in other forms, like Al Gore did with his companies that invested in “green” energy that benefited greatly from the gov’t mandates and subsidies.
Though a small amount in the big scheme, another example is Solyndra.
Warren Buffet makes a ton of money (not that he didn’t already have a ton of money or doesn’t make a ton elsewhere) from shipping oil by rail and the Keystone pipeline (that would carry some ND Bakken oil) is held up.
GE made a lot of money by building wind turbines that were only purchased and installed due to the wind tax credit.
So the Dems reward their top supporters a lot as well.
It’s probably human nature for those in power to favor other like minded people in power. But that does create the opportunity for some other aspiring alpha to rally the populist masses to act as a counterweight to the elites.
@Obs 384
I agree that creating MWBs is important.
Feminists and their apex alpha enablers were very crafty in using men’s innate sense of justice and desire to protect women to shame them into surrendering by exaggerating the tales of the woes of women and only focusing on oppressive men (instead of the majority that were decent or neutral) and getting men to feel like, “Jesus, we really are a bunch of bastards and have treated women shittily so we better pass a bunch of laws to protect them and safety-net them and give them the advantage (couched in equality, of course).”
Only after the fact are we able to shine some sane light on things and show that it wasn’t female equality that was sought by the key players but it was female superiority.
Stefan Molyneux deep-fisks through Rodger’s manifesto here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oybAUKZhaMA
Long but so far very worth watching (about halfway though myself)
@Obsidian #383,
What you’re leaving out is the very real fact that the overall quality of Women has gotten markedly worse since even the latter 90s – less than two decades ago(!)
You are right, I did leave that out. But I think a good part of the reason why this has occurred is related to those economic and political macro forces I mentioned. Women have been “empowered” on many levels, at the expense of the common men, who have been disempowered. It’s that empowerment without responsibility or consequence that enables and incents many of those negative trends. Although obesity – I don’t know. The whole world is getting fatter. Cats and dogs are getting fatter. Even lab rats who are fed controlled diets are getting fatter. I blame global warming!
the goal isn’t to stop the other side from scoring – a really good squad is going to score – the goal is to get them to CHANGE THEIR SHOT – and we’re beginning to get them to do that.
Excellent point.
@Han Solo 386, Obsidian 384,
I think Men With Backbones (MWB) might be the political manifestation of game.
Obsidian: far tooo many Men are either cowed into silence or are Booty Beggars who are still plugged into the Matrix
Han: using men’s innate sense of justice and desire to protect women to shame them into surrendering by exaggerating the tales of the woes of women
In other words, they got men to play the beta supplicant game on the political level. The solution on the political level mirrors that on the personal level.
{damn html /tags}
@Han Solo 386, Obsidian 384,
I think Men With Backbones (MWB) might be the political manifestation of game.
Obsidian: far tooo many Men are either cowed into silence or are Booty Beggars who are still plugged into the Matrix
Han: using men’s innate sense of justice and desire to protect women to shame them into surrendering by exaggerating the tales of the woes of women
In other words, they got men to play the beta supplicant game on the political level. The solution on the political level mirrors that on the personal level.
Apparently the whole affair has been hashtagged (is that even a word)?
http://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/twitter-responds-to-santa-barbara-shootings-with-yesallwomen
http://time.com/114043/yesallwomen-hashtag-santa-barbara-shooting/
I like when someone mentions that the SMP artificially inflates women’s value through legislation. You don’t need patriarchy to reverse some of those effects and reduce the number of beta rampages. Reducing welfare and various affirmative action for women would help. It’s just, gender-equal in the truest sense, AND makes life better…
Of course, it would be hard to convince the government, and in the meanwhile, you have game.
@Hollenhund 391:
You have got to be freakin’ kiddin’ me.
Ok fellas, it’s time to go on the offensive with the facts and the truth – we need to start up our own hashtag.
I’m serious.
We can start it off by posting our own piece in response to the nonsense trending right now – and I know exactly how to do it.
Stay tuned – Ciaran, check your emails in about half an hour from the time I post this comment…
O.
@392
Ironic that social media allowing everyone to be connected may be what kills society.
Correction @394
I was responding to the nonsense linked @391
Apologies to Emma.
@ Obsidian 393
This regards the hashtag #YesAllWomen, which discusses women’s experiences where men supposedly feel entitled to access to their bodies.
Ok, let’s talk about our experiences as men where women feel entitled to access to our bodies–and hashtag them. I’m not on twitter, but maybe it’s time for me to join.
Here’s what I remember without much digging:
A woman put my hand on her tit.
Another woman poured her tit into my hand. (Yeah, her tit was gross.)
Women screwed their tits into my chest while hugging.
A woman shoved my hand into her groin when we weren’t intimate.
A woman groin-bumped me.
There were multiple unrequested hugs where I was grabbed.
A woman kissed me on the cheek after grabbing me for a hug.
Women showed butthurtedness multiple times because they were into me and I wasn’t gonna give them sex. Several women assumed that if they were into me that they were entitled to access to my body.
I saw a woman grab a man’s ass, taking him by surprise.
Of course, NAWALT. Some respected my boundaries.
(Throws dishes at farm boy)
For all the talk by some relating to violence and this blog, the only evidence of such is a chick throwing dishes.
Roe at 387,
Thanks for the link to Stefan Molyneaux’s video. It runs two hours and I saw it all. This kid was one sick puppy.
Bloom, don’t watch it.
Farm Boy,
Those are figurative dishes. I still think that Bloom likes you.
For all the talk about young men being losers in the SMP/MMP, no one has mentioned that that is not the only demographic that’s behind the 8 ball. Older women are failing too. While a lot of them are not gettng much sympathy around here for squandering opportunities. They’re still failing.
Since we live in a gynocentric culture, owing to the fact that women are the bottleneck of reproduction, when this demographic starts howling, they will be listened to.
Hopefully, the issues of young men will be considered then. A comprehensive fix will be needed.
There’s another demographic that coming up losers too in this marketplace-high value women who wnnt relationships. They’re getting crowded out by lesser value women.
I can just bet that they are furious but, they’re not howling either.
@Fuzzie 400
There’s another demographic that coming up losers too in this marketplace-high value women who wnnt relationships. They’re getting crowded out by lesser value women.
How so? And how do you distinguish between high-value and lesser-value women?
@401
Me thinks Fuzzier is being satirical.
Theasdgamer and Badpainter,
My logic isn’t fuzzy. The losers in the marketplace are lower value men and high value women. We’re well aquainted with how hypergamy hurt lower men. Very high value women are hurt too. Too much competition.
http://whoism3.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/hypergamy-in-a-pic.jpg
Courtesy of M3.
#403 aha, the graphic helps. FuzzieWuzzie is right. Yes, the *otherwise* highly valued women are not as highly valued (e.g. by high value men) as they could be, because of the way that hypergamy skews the SMP. As Han Solo keeps reminding us, alpha men are *above* women, because in the sexual hierarchy women are in a big lump in between the alphas and betas.
Mark the calendar! First time a woman ever offered me her phone no. unasked. I just ignored her except for leading her to dance, lol.
I’m not going to cry many tears for the female 10s. They can still get commitment from top men (or virtually any other man they want it from).
This just in:
Here’s an interesting take on the Elliot Rodger issue, and the wider issue of MRAs:
http://dreamandhustle.com/2014/05/black-women-continue-to-blissfully-ignore-the-black-elliot-rodger-and-the-black-mra-threat/
Comments?
O.
Tommy Sotomayor does have Elliot Rodger’s YouTube Manifesto on his own YouTube channel:
http://m.youtube.com/user/tommynewsnetwork1
O.
Obsidian,
I read that link at 407 and the writer is scare-mongering. It’s worrisome because most people can’t handle be doxxed and that seems to be his goal.
been reading this thread today, Obsidian. excellent compiling of resources.
you’re aware the backlash is coming. the narrative is being written. you asked an earlier question about how this affects the black community, especially with incels. i think with the black blogs pretty much being in the feminist camp, they are safe spaces and as such, will not hear anything remotely in defense of men’s rights, game, pua, etc.
apparently someone at gmp will be getting into the act, and he’s pretty much combining all aspects of men’s rights to this guy. unfortunate.
http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/the-myth-of-the-alpha-male-hesaid/
@ farm boy my apologies for the dish chucking (strews flower petals and peace offerings @ farm boy)
Farm boy to be honest your moniker sets me off bc another (Iowa) farm boy burned me bad, sorry to take that out on you.
@ fuzzie I like all of you! Not just farm boy (who honestly is kind of antagonistic, even in his old comments on sms, but I think he means well. Devil’s advocate?)
Good discussion on all this, absolutely breaks my heart for all affected. Hopefully some good comes from this tragedy, if such a thing is possible.
#393
Are you actually surprised? Many leftist hipsters apparently believe that posting stuff on Twitter/Facebook now counts as social activism. Remember Kony 2012?
#410
Lulz. The GMP never disappoints. I never expected them to post anything that isn’t misandrist BS.
@Hollenhund:
Yea, the article by Mr. Fells is interesting to say the least.
I’ve put out a call to Ms. Joanna Schroeder who runs the GMP these days, for a sitdown chat with the O-Man; let’s see what happens…
O.
@Hollenhund:
Interesting that you would bring up the old Soviet Union; they collapsed under the sheer weight of their ideology, and the masses never really bought into that stuff anyway; remember, East Germany had the barbwire and high walls to keep people IN, not keep others OUT, LOL.
The tide is turning. As someone upthread noted, notice how quickly Daily Kos, PolicyMic and others, piped down when Manosphere bloggers and social media hounds mobilized with the facts and the truth – and we here at J4G are going to do our part in the effort. We simply will n ot stand and let others trash our eforts witht he actions of one deragned individual.
By the way, I got your response to my question yesterday, I’ll be responding to it shortly. You really should consider joing the team, we could use a Man on the Street over in Hungary! Get at me: theobsidianfiiles@hotmail.com and we’ll talk!
O.
@Hollenhund 412:
Goood catch on the “Kony 2012″ fiasco – last time I checked,he was still very much at large inn the jungles and deep forests of the Congo…SMH…
O.
@Triple H 410:
Thanks for stopping by and also for the heads up on the latest over at the GMP on the Elliot Rodger issue. Looks likenot much has changed over there, huh?
SMH…
I would be very interested in your thoughts about Black Incels. If you would rather share them with me privately, hit me up at theobsidianfiles@hotmail.com. Thanks!
O.
@Fuzzie & JF12:
Good points about the travails of better looking Women in our time; it”s true that they often can be squeezed tooo, on the grounds that sex is so easily available for the uppter shelf guys; the lower shelf gals know they have to put out quickly, thus killing the incentive for the upper shelf guys to “act right” in order to do it with the uper shelf gals, who could use their great beauty to bargain with. Nowadays, their bargaining power has diminished, which means that the upper level guys can stave off marriage or LTRs indefinitely, because the lower shelf gals are more than willing to be “FWBs” for/with them.
O.
@Fuzzie:
” For all the talk about young men being losers in the SMP/MMP, no one has mentioned that that is not the only demographic that’s behind the 8 ball. Older women are failing too. While a lot of them are not gettng much sympathy around here for squandering opportunities. They’re still failing.
Since we live in a gynocentric culture, owing to the fact that women are the bottleneck of reproduction, when this demographic starts howling, they will be listened to.”
O: Excellent point about older gals – we all recall OKC’s famed report/study about the topic:
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-case-for-an-older-woman/
And there’s just no getting around it – an older gal DOES have a harder go of it out on the open market, especially in terms of online dating. It is, what it is, though the smart, savvy older gal CAN make some things happen for herself; our own Ms. Liz discussed that point beautifully a little while back:
http://www.justfourguys.com/seasons-of-life-effective-beauty-tips-for-the-older-woman/
And because it’s Tue, time to post up another Tommy Sotomayor YouTube which interestingly enough, kinda sorta deals with your point Fuzzie:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-V07J2ym8bg
Comments?
O.
BLACK INCELS
As someone said earlier I believe that black incels exists but just in smaller numbers and for different reasons, than non black incels.
BLACK MEN ARE MORE LIKELY TO TAKE AN ANY PORT IN A STORM APPROACH
Brothas have the advantage of the jump off and THOT (that hoe over there) culture where the entry bar to easy sex is low and the cost minimal… because the requirements for sex, don’t take into account factors like looks, economics, number of children, etc… the purpose of these arrangements are purely sexual.
An employed brotha who can afford a little food, liquor, weed, can entertain a low or lower income woman who will have sex in exchange for a respite from her day to day existence.
The further he can get up the aspirational food chain, i.e. looks, height, education, income, status… the greater the selection, both in quality and quantity, but the base level of entry for just getting laid is having a job.
Example: in Chicago there are several working class bars where a guy in greasy mechanics coveralls or a postal uniform will be beating off chicks like rocks stars… UPS, FedEX, or any visible sign that a man is working and gainfully employed and a couple of drinks, and all that is required the barest minimum of game to achieve a successful sexual conquest.
Now this is provided that the focus is on lower income, less educated women… although it should be noted that this category of employed men can also bag better looking, educated and employed sisters if they carry additional attractors such as height, education, additional income, etc.
So brothas are less likely to face a social stigma for having sex with women who may not be socially desirable or mate material because it is understood that they are just having sex with this woman.
BLACK WOMEN WHO LIVE IN LESS SAFE NEIGHBORHOODS WHERE THEY WOULD BENEFIT FROM HAVING A MALE IN THE HOUSE, EVEN IF ITS FOR AN OCCASIONAL ONS
Lower income black women are more likely to trade regular booty calls for security as a survival strategy. A regular gentleman caller keeps the predators at bay, so even an unemployed male with minimal resources can score regular sex because he provides protection even if its just an illusion its better than having no man around at all.
(Note: this behavior is not exclusive to black women as most women in lower economic situations will make this trade off)
BLACK MEN BENEFIT FROM THE MYTH OF SEXUAL PROWESS
As mentioned previously black men can cause arousal in non black women who are curious about the “myth”… this is good for a series of ONS or if he steps of his sex game a way to start a harem.
This mythology also works with black women who are dedicated to the philosophy of NBABM (nothing but a black man) as it pertains to sexual gratification even when it excludes black men as a long term mating strategy.
THE BLACK CHURCH, WHERE THE ODDS ARE EVER IN THE BLACK MANS FAVOR
Most black churches have scores of women waiting and looking for God to deliver them a mate or preferably a husband. The single male to female ratio is upwards of 10+ to 1. Now in order to be successful you have to have church game… attend regularly, know scripture and hold out the promise of looking for your future queen, etc… in order to be successful, but this is a long game situation (not sure if that is the right term) where you can find a mate or several (but only through serial monogamy, which can even be short term) but too many ONS will garner social disapproval and eventual ostracization… but its one of the best/worst kept secrets in the black community.
SO WHY ARE THERE STILL BLACK MALE INCELS?
The groupings of black men most likely to be incel are those with extremes in personality deficits (because I have known sistas to take in homeless dudes selling streetwise because they thought they would make good companions) extremely low on the looks spectrum, nearing facial or physical deformity (and this is extreme because I have known black men who have dwarfism and morbid obesity that has left them bed bound who still have girlfriends and or regular sex partners)… so the physical appearance can more easily be overcome if there is some level of personality or income from their disabilities.
THE LARGEST GROUP OF BLACK MALE INCELS COMES FROM MEN WHO HAVE BOUGHT INTO THE MEDIA HYPE ABOUT THE DESPERATION OF BLACK WOMEN AND HOW THIS RELATES TO THEIR APPEAL
Most black incels in my experience are black men who don’t understand their lack of success with women because they are educated, and or employed, decent, with their own car, apartment, home, credit card, no kids, etc… so why can’t they get a woman… especially when everything in the media tells them that there are hundreds and thousands of single women looking for a good black man.
The problem with most black incles is they are punching so far above their weight that they have no chance.
Example: I know a guy, black, mid 20’s, average looks and height, works for the post office… I know for a fact he gets hit on daily but not by the women he wants… he wants Beyonce or at least a booty model type chick… I know for a fact that he goes by certain natural hair salons, and weave shops on Saturdays and gets baked goods, and offers of home cooked meals, and numbers from women who just want to holla… but not from the girls he wants them from.
But part of his route also includes several office buildings where receptionist, and secretaries offer him candy, and coffee, practically throwing panties at him.
He wants the hot girls, who pay him no mind.
I know his boys try to get him out of his box to go round the way to get some wings, or to fix him up with some of their girl’s friends or friends of one of the jump offs they know but they aren’t hot enough.
Or they have a checklist of things that they want from a woman that they don’t possess themselves, but they believe that with the dearth of “good” available black men shouldn’t be an issue.
I find that a good percentage of male incels in general suffer from wanting women above their weight class but I find this is the case more so in the black community where the numbers are clearly in their favor.
Also part of the increasing in balance in the SMP for black men is a faction of women who are becoming voluntarily celibate… educated and employed black women who have chosen to opt out of the SMP because they only want to date black men, but don’t want or can’t have children and don’t want to take care of someone elses, have deemed themselves as not being of value in the SMP and have decided to focus on education and employment. living a lifestyle without men that I have termed non sexual lesbian (black women who spend the majority of their time in activities or endeavors that do not lend themselves to contact with men)
So this phenomenon will decrease the pool of women available for sex, mating and marriage… but that is for another post ~JS
@ ADBG 323
might have to go visit Gamer for some tips one of these weekends
Sure. I’d be happy to show you around the dance floors where I live. It would be fun.
@ JS 420
I think that Obsidian showed a while back that Tyrone is invisible to sistahs who are about the same level of SMV. These sistahs are all looking for Mr. Big. Not enough left for the Tyrones of the world. The problem isn’t Tyrone–it’s the apex fallacy that virtually all sistahs subscribe to.
Not sure if this story was linked/posted:
http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/egomaniacal-ucsb-killer-elliot-rodger-provokes-anti-male-anti-gay-crowds-on-the-left-and-right/
@Frimmel 423:
God looking out on the excellent link! Now they’re going in on the Gays, tooo huh? Sad…
O.
@ Obsidian 424
I posted over at AVFMS about Rodger (may be in mod). I think that people have picked up on Rodger’s effeminate characteristics as important, but have drawn the wrong conclusion about what they mean. I don’t think that Rodger’s effeminacy suggests that he’s a closet homosexual, but rather that he thoroughly imbibed bluepill thinking and that it shows in his effeminate way of speaking–his speech, his mannerisms, his facial expressions, and his body language. It is plainly obvious to us redpill men (and of course, to women) that Rodger is unattractive to women.
Rodger’s adoption of bluepill thinking is obvious when he describes himself as the “perfect gentleman.” A “perfect gentleman” asks for permission to escalate, which, of course, is unattractive to women. However, the bluepill philosophy supposes that men must act like “perfect gentlemen.” I expect that there’s more bluepill philosophy to be mined from ER’s rants. I’ll copy my AVFMS comment to the bottom of this comment.
Rodger’s folly might be a case where lemonade could be made from a lemon. If it can be used to explain bluepill thinking and get exposure for redpill thinking, that would be a help to the redpill community.
I think that analyzing Elliott Rodger (ER) carefully would be very useful. The competent members of the PUA community would say that ER had no inner frame of confidence since he based his worth on externals like clothing, a car, and looks. ER isn’t actually narcissistic in any way that would help him with women. He’s not self-reliant or arrogant and doesn’t really believe that he’s superior. The only narcissistic things about him are his sense of entitlement and his vanity–both traits of feminine narcissists.
The incompetent members of the PUA-instruction community have argued that external things like clothing, a car, and looks are important in bedding women. Perhaps ER listened to these incompetents. ER’s portrayal of himself as the “perfect gentleman” suggests that he failed to understand what attracts women and was likely very bluepill despite allegedly having looked at some PUA info.
I think that analyzing Elliott Rodger (ER) carefully would be very useful. The competent members of the PUA community would say that ER had no inner frame of confidence since he based his worth on externals like clothing, a car, and looks. ER isn’t actually narcissistic in any way that would help him with women. He’s not self-reliant or arrogant and doesn’t really believe that he’s superior. The only narcissistic things about him are his sense of entitlement and his vanity–both traits of feminine narcissists.
The incompetent members of the PUA-instruction community have argued that external things like clothing, a car, and looks are important in bedding women. Perhaps ER listened to these incompetents. ER’s portrayal of himself as the “perfect gentleman” suggests that he failed to understand what attracts women and was likely very bluepill despite allegedly having looked at some PUA info.
ER’s problems with women are obvious when watching his speech–he seems very effeminate, which is unattractive to women.
@TASDG 425:
Excellent comment! Good job! Let’s see if AVFM posts it up…
O.
@TASDG:
Wrt Ms. Jhnae Sez: I think she makes a number of wonderful points that don’t necessarily conflict with my “Tyrone” series as odd as that may sound; I think the situation is just a weebit more complex than we may realize; put that together that, for whatever reason, there isn’t the same kind of urgency, interest or quite frankly sophistication on the part of our Black scholars, thinkers and intellectuals, to really understand the whys and wherefores of human mating in Black America in all its permutations, and we have a very rudimentary, caricatured, understanding at best, of the issue. If nothing else, Ms. Jhane Sez’s contribution takes us one step closer to unraveling the mysteries of these issues in a very important demographic of American life.
O.
Miss “Dream and Hustle” decided to go with the “closeted gay goes nuts” theory, I see.
I stopped reading there.
Unfortunately for all the big thinkers, this is just what it appears to be: a spoiled rich narcissist decided to get revenge for the world not giving him what his inflated sense of self told him he deserved.
I’ve contacted Dr. Helen and let her know that we’re covering the Elliot Rodger issue and Incel Males, and to please pass the word; here’s her take:
http://pjmedia.com/drhelen/2014/05/25/the-elliot-rodger-case-if-pickup-artists-are-guilty-then-so-are-the-feminists/
O.
Rodgers was not a dorky White kid. He was Jewish and Asian. Swinging for the fences ( so to speak) by only wanting HB9 blonde girls. Wonder how much unrealistic expectations about the kind of women he could pull played into his despair?
Ms. Amanda Hess of Slate, whom I discuss in my interview with Ms. Janet “JudgyBitch” Bloomfield, weighs in:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/05/24/elliot_rodger_the_pick_up_artist_community_s_predictable_horrible_response.html
I’ve also contacted Ms. Hess for an interview; I’ll let you know what happens…
O.
UPDATE:
I’ve just heard back from Ms. Hess; she has declined to be interviewed, citing being too busy att this time. I will let you know if and when an interview with Ms. Hess can be arranged. Stay tuned…
O.
Rodger is an effective rorschach blot for two communities, the anti-gun and anti-masculinity crowds. It doesn’t matter that his story and actions do not sustain, on the facts, either group’s perspectives. He’s just another useful idiot.
I see him as a guy who was steeped in transactional, bourgeois culture. He expresses astonishment that someone who checks so many boxes on the checklist of social success (material, physical, political, racial) remains an untouchable.
What this means to me is that he sought, through transactional behaviors, validational sex. He sought self-actualization through superficial acquisitions. He sought, and failed to achieve, social prominence through credit cards. He, in essence, bought the Madison Ave fantasy that correct car = social dominance. His killing spree expresses nothing so much as a desire for a “refund” for everything he purchased and was given, once he discovered the lie of the consumer checklist as a protocol for fulfillment. I don’t believe that there aren’t shy, plain, slight women of various races who would have been delighted to date him. Instead he wanted to date the hottest chicks on Facebook (BMWs, not Hyundais). His consumerist outlook caused him to view his natural dating element as as shopping at Walmart instead of at Saks.
I don’t think this episode is going to have much influence over time, other than further painting the shrill critics of Game and Guns as unhinged. Rodger’s dad, who ignored him, and who sells “art” photos of female butts, prepared him well for his spree. Therefore his father publicly blames the NRA for this western, consumer version of a suicide bomber. At one level this freak was just pissed off that his dad got to take pictures of butts for a living, and he could not.
@ O
Hess was using the ER tragedy to smear the PUA community with “misogyny.” It was very predictable. She is part of The Big Lie, which is why she is so predictable. Hess froths lots of unpersuasive bluepill rhetoric with little thought behind it. Intellectually, she’s your average woman with a feminazi twist.
For Hess, “misogyny” means “anything that threatens the Feminine Imperative.” Of course, PUA sites automatically threaten the FI, so they are misogynist by definition. Same goes for J4G, of course.
re#424
Heartiste is banging on the closet homosexual drum as well:
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/05/26/the-psychosis-of-the-effeminate-male/
Interesting comments about the maniac and game/PUA. Obviously whatever this guy was doing didn’t work. I suppose that a possible critique of the more aggressively marketed game coaching services could be that the PUA community offers too many “rags to riches” stories and that this creates inflated expectations for people like the maniac. The argument would be that when some % of incels buy into game hype and attempt to use seduction techniques *but these don’t work for them* (for whatever reason), they are further alienated from what they perceive to be an “invitation only” A-List/Hot List casual sex bacchanalia with many surplus mating opportunities made available for alpha male participants.
The average and below-average guys who assume that hot chicks on campus only want handsome jocks with money and swag have, in a way, a built-in explanation and excuse for why they are struggling. At one time I think this was just assumed to be true, at least in high school and college—the hottest chicks associated with a predictable group of males.
But has this traditional SMP trophic system broken down? Do larger numbers of men now feel that they can or should attain playboy status? I don’t have a strong view on this, but I believe that the answer is “yes” to some extent: IMHO, the player lifestyle *appears* to now be attainable to more men.
If you tell that incel that looks, physical size, high-status public athleticism displays, money, etc. do not matter so much, it may put more of the responsibility on him. Perhaps 99.99% of the time that is a good thing, an offering of hope and of agency. However, if the guy takes on this new skillset and *still* fails (and who knows—he may fail because he’s simply incapable of being attractive, but he may also fail because he’s impatient or unrealistic or operating in a very tough environment), he may ironically have been better off operating under the belief that his mating options were largely out of his control and not a reflection on his worth as a human being.
Based on what I’ve read, it doesn’t sound like this guy ever used any kind of game techniques at all.
The episode that apparently drove him over the edge was when he went to a party and nobody talked to him. He was incensed that the hot girls were talking and flirting with guys he saw as beneath him… Guys who weren’t “perfect gentlemen” or checking the boxes he thought made him such a catch.
Dude never even failed, because he never tried in the first place. Just expected everything to be handed to him because he was such a catch in his mind.
Seems like his only relation to game was that he despised guys who had it, and saw them as unworthy of its rewards.
I’ll add that I really don’t buy into the thought that game would’ve saved him or prevented the situation from happening. His narcissistic and psychopathic tendencies would have led to him being enraged by any other set of perceived injustices with his life.
@Bastiat
You raise an interesting point of discussion.
From my own observations, the vast majority of guys are happy to be monogamous with girlfriends, or would be happy with them if they could manage to get them. The number of aspiring playboys is very low, in my experience.
With that said, that number could also be growing from past years. But that’s something I really wouldn’t have a grip on.
Jimmy, I read PUA Mehow’s book recently and was pleased with how structured, tightly analytical, and thoughtful it was. Totally different approach from something I personally would use, but still a worthwhile read IMHO—one of the better PUA books I personally have read, especially if you strongest assets are fluid intelligence and the gift of gab, and you have a non-threatening physicality.
Anyway, just to reinforce your comment: Mehow had a section in the book about developing a cadre of instructors from his pool of top students, and then using these guys as some kind of mobile training team to expand his business by running PUA camps simultaneously in different venues or whatever. He noted that it was actually quite difficult to find guys who would coach in a dedicated way because almost all of the students retired from pick-up once they found GFs.
I think that some guys may hide behind the SMV9-10, hot, big-boobs, NFL cheerleader or Playmate template and claim this as their “minimum” as a way to avoid having to deal with the more appropriate women in their real, local markets—it’s a form of pre-rejection, not unlike what some women do when confronted with certain realities about alphas and their associated, rather intuitive sense of sexual yield curve ladders/barbell strategies.
@ bastiat I think you may be on to something.
I have been thinking back and on a few occasions I have been approached by men w the RE type vibe, and I did not date them because there was a darkness to that “you WILL be mine” energy. As Emma’s story illustrates, sometimes that discontent can go away w romance, but it’s a pretty big gamble. Obsessive controlling energy is anti game for sure. I am skeptical that if he got a gf he would have been ok. Maybe, but with his personality characteristics he could also have become abusive and a gals worst nightmare. Not that I am saying all guys in his shoes would be abusive by any means, most wouldn’t, but he could just as well end up w a double homicide if the gal wants to break off. He was obviously not coming at it from a healthy good place, not to invalidate his struggle and lonliness. When someone has that dark vibe, it can be a tell of bad things ahead or in the very least women may read it that way and steer clear.
Hope all that makes sense and doesn’t come off the wrong way.
Circumstances have limited my ability to comment on this whole sordid affair. I’ve read everything the sphere has put out on this guy and agree with most everything that was said.
His environment, parents and upbringing layed the groundwork. His narcissism fueled the rest. His autism or whatever brain level defect he had kept him understanding the concept of working to become attractive by rather than dressing up and waiting to be acted upon.
I recognize sooo much of how i used to behave in the way he blames society. Yet i feel no sympathy. Really i don’t. Rogers had access to redpill truth. If he found PUA’s, he must have known about Rollo, J4G, etc. One could be forgiven for seeing him as someone trapped in the blue pill wrapper, unable to see or comprehend the redpill and aimlessly wandering around wondering why his actions did not translate to success.
Not the case
He HATED everything the redpill stood for, the success it could bring. He hates PUA’s because they succeeded, and he hated hot women because PUA’s tactics succeeded. He wanted the world to work and bend to him, not the other way around.
In my incel post, i railed not because of the nature of attraction, but because i had been LIED TO for multiple years and steered away from a corrective course of action. Rogers was not lied to. He’s one of those guys Rollo talks about, so dependent on the system he’d rather stay plugged in because the truth is too terrifying and too ugly to believe. So even tho he had the redpill, he cast it aside and doubled down on being the ‘supreme gentleman’ – whatever the fuck that meant. Many breakdowns of Rogers online have already detailed what it meant.. sitting on a patio waiting for a girl to approach him and ask him out just for looking cool in $300 sunglasses.
Any chick that shallow is not going to want a ‘gentleman’ incapable of being an exciting douchebag.
We regularly make fun of feminists for seeing the science and the biology in action and sticking their fingers in their ear shrieking NANANANANLALLALALLA i CANT HEAR YOU… PATRIARCHY.. OPPRESSION… GENDER IS A CONSTRUCT… BLAH
This guy actively rejected it, because to acknowledge it meant acknowledging his own failure and fear. It meant he would have to accept the concepts of female attraction, the ones he grew to despise. It wasn’t for lack of redpill, it was knowing redpill worked that made him view ALL humanity as worth washing away with in rivers of skulls and blood. Humanity was sick he said, sexuality and sex were inferior methods of procreation and damned certain people of our species to live horrible unfulffiled lives while others went on to gorge on the ‘fun’ of life. This was a society that deserved to be destroyed.
Enjoy the decline anyone?
At the end of my own incel post, i asked – what do we do with these socially awkward and inept men who can’t trigger attraction in women but desire sexual intimacy? I asked because i was hoping to get some feminist to come out and say what i egged them on to saying, the logical conclusion of feminism. These men who aren’t owed anything, but are still asked to contribute to society and be reminded painfully ever single day in a consumerist, hypersexualized society that worships and sells everything on the basis of sex – to just sit down, shut up and be silent while the sexual revolutions consequences play out in front of them.
Unchained hypergamy, women’s freedom to choose men independent of economic factors and dependency on the state. Women no longer need any men. So they only focus on the desirable ones. The pendulum swings against women as more men figure out how to play the game and leave them to spinsterhood, but thats for another day.
I cannot relate to this man. His pain of being celibate, yes, but nothing else. Most incels simply followed the feminine imperatives script on trying to win a womans heart through valor and good deeds. This man had none of it. He just wanted a trophy on his arm he could fuck to fill the hole inside eating at him telling him it would fix all his issues and everyone would see just how awesome he was.
He was broken long before he became incel. Incel was a symptom, not the root cause. He needed more than a lay to fix his problems. What he needed, im not quite sure. Perhaps a time machine…
I have tried hard to relate to this guy. I just can’t. With him, i see true misogyny as defined. Women were nothing to him other than tools to enhance his status, arm candy to validate his life. I guess thats why i can’t sympathize. I can empathize with the fact that his life starting from birth sucked, his parents sucked, his environment sucked, and it created him.
It’s the apergers or autism that i cannot identify with, it’s the only explanation for his behavior in rejecting the redpill. He probably took a PUA lesson (evidenced by his being on PUAhate), failed (because he’s an aspie), and logically concluded PUA/Game doesn’t work because it failed for him the ONE time he tried it. He also didn’t do what i did – which was take a full 2 years to build my mind, body, soul with the concepts of the sphere, take the time and effort to fix everything about me, all the insecurities, all the crap holding me back. Rogers didn’t. I’ll let Yoda finish my argument.
“f you end your training now – if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did – you will become an agent of evil.” – Yoda
#439 “if you strongest assets are fluid intelligence and the gift of gab, and you have a non-threatening physicality.”
My intelligence is so fluid it is gaseous, and gab is the gift I keep on giving as you can probably tell, and my physicality has been ignorable if not laughable, so I feel qualified.
Well said m3
#437 “Dude never even failed, because he never tried in the first place.”
I completely agree. The party episode seems to indicate he went there specifically to cause trouble, except he merely annoyed people. In another place, he was going to work out for two whole weeks in order to cause women to tremble at his muscles, except he didn’t even last two days. He didn’t actually try.
Folks, narcissism and psychopathy aren’t necessarily bad. If narcissism is based on certain narcissistic traits–real superiority, self-reliance, and justified arrogance–then it can be a good thing.
If narcissism is based on vanity and a sense of entitlement, then it is a bad thing. Not all narcissism is the same.
There can be situations where it is a good thing to not be able to empathize with someone, especially if it’s a good thing to be able to damage them. Consider surgery, the military, the police, etc. as examples. So psychopathy isn’t necessarily bad.
So, don’t stupidly blame Rodger’s problem on narcissism and psychopathy. Instead, blame Rodger’s sense of entitlement and his vanity as symptoms of his personal problems. Blame his failure to question his bluepill philosophy. But don’t blame his narcissism and psychopathy generally.
The Red Pill truth is that he had absolutely no romantic value to women and no matter how hard he tried, he likely never would, because he is so damn awkward and starting at a huge social deficit.
However, if he ever put his tenacity (141 page autobiography?) and intellect (1-1.5 std dev IQ) to good use, society would be more than happy to help itself to a quarter of his paycheck, because, you know, society really does look after him and his needs (snicker snicker).
If you check YOHAMI’s site, he states that he is narcissistic based on a test he took. I took the same test and I am even more narcissistic than YOHAMI.
Narcissism is one of the three traits of an alpha dark triad, the other two being Machiavellian and a psychopath.
“Aspies” are people who have been diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome. Asperger’s Syndrome is a variety of autism and is no longer diagnosed specifically as Asperger’s Syndrome–instead, many shrinks diagnose someone as having ASD (Autistic Spectrum Disorder).
Perhaps it would be good to post about Rodger being the cataclysmic endpoint of C. S. Lewis’s “men without chests.”
In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful. C. S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man (from http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/14823978-the-abolition-of-man)
I think that Stefan Molyneaux had it right in his two hour take down of the manifesto. At the bottom, this kid was neglected by his parents and treated like an object. If there was a family dog, it would have gotten more attention.
It starts there and cascades.
@ fuzzie how sad!
I wonder if he watched a lot of TV and was expecting his life to end up like some rom com and couldn’t understand why it wasn’t? A warped sense of reality?
Bloom,
It’s sad but, it reminds me of something that’s said often about accidents. It’s not one thing but, a whole succession of things that leads to a horrible outcome.
Everyone has a warped sense of reality. Everyone has a degree of narcissism. You can’t even say narcissism was why he sucked with girls, because narcissists tend to do better (in conjunction with other traits).
He defiantly chose to disregard the Red Pill because it made him feel like he was worth shit. Why the fuck wouldn’t he? He is likely on the spectrum and has trouble dealing with people, and the message he gets is that he’s basically shit and that’s all girls ever will see him as. Yea, I’d take my ball and go home too, and even knowing the Red Pill I struggled for a lonnnngggg time with it.
I think Hess is on to something. The Manosphere vibe seems to be “alpha or suicide,” where the desired archtype is at LEAST a Roissy-esque repertoire, and preferably a BV-esque sex in an auto-pilotless airplane, and goddammit anything less is failure.
If you can’t rise up to those standards, it’s tough to feel like a winner, and therefore you are a loser, and therefore fuck your ideology.
It’s not much different than a girl almost over the hill stumbling upon the red pill and realizing she has no future (or at least a very difficult future).
Obviously this is not the sum total of the Red Pill, but we do not always project a positive vibe here. I am quite happy with my station, and I could not have gotten here without the Red Pill. Fuck all y’all femi-Nazis, I got some non-free trade, GMO corn along with tortured pork drowned in BBQ sauce and lemon juice to eat, and then I am going to go sex up my wife, who likes it when I boss her around and spank her (sometimes).
No Rodgers here. This is a place of daily awesomeness.
Viva la pilule rouge!
@ adbg it’s good to be the king! Lol (high five)
@JF12 366
I’m going to call this comment out. Unless this comment was some kind of joke that I’m not perceiving, I think it was both cheap, and unsubstantiated. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe that Rodgers ever said that he felt that trying to get into an LTR felt like a chore. Instead, I believe he spoke at length about how he was superior, and how much he would enjoy getting retribution, via violence, on women for not recognizing his superiority.
@M3 441
I can agree with everything you said here, with the exception that I think there are at least a decent number of men with Aspergers who are either able to rise above and get dates, or cope with their celibacy without resorting to violence. I will qualify by stating that I have not done any research on the matter, but I do have a friend who had, and may still have, a mild form of schizophrenia who never resorted to violence (and actually got married last year).
To expand on what you said about being lied to, and to address those who doubt that Game can be helpful to those who are unable to put it into practice, I want to highlight something I alluded to in my previous comment in this thread: For me, simply understanding how attraction worked was a profoundly healing experience.
For myself, being celibate was never really the big issue. After all, I still spent seven years involuntarily celibate after l learned game, but I was not haunted in the same way. The real issue is constantly being bombarded with messages that your value as a human being is directly connected to your capacity to attract women. In America, even amongst the otherwise non-religious and non-spiritual, there is a fervent devotion to the idea that “there is somebody for everybody,” and that women “just want a nice guy with a sense of humor.”
The general consensus is that good men don’t have difficulty with women, and most people fanatically cling to this fantasy like a pitbull to a steak. Stating that you are good guy but have difficulty with women only serves to provoke personal attacks against you. There is NOTHING you can say to convince these reality deniers that you are a good guy if you can’t attract women. Obsidian showcases some of this in one of his Tyrone posts: when confronted with a man who meets the criteria for being a good guy, but does not hit the hypergamy trigger, these women go into overdrive manufacturing reasons why said candidate MUST NOT actually be a good guy. It’s impossible because they say it is, discussion closed.
I strongly believe that it’s not involuntary celibacy, in and of itself, that makes for angry and bitter incels…it’s the constant misandry floating around our culture that demonizes and shames these men. If you constantly tell men that they are horrible, evil, violent, rapists and nothing they do can convince you otherwise, then is it so surprising when some men actually rise up and starting acting out what they are accused of?
I’m reminded of that Thomas Moore quote in Ever After:
“For if you suffer your people to be ill-educated, and their manners to be corrupted from their infancy, and then punish them for those crimes to which their first education disposed them, what else is to be concluded from this, but that you first make thieves and then punish them.”
― Thomas More, Utopia
Even so, it seems to take a large intersection of negative factors (mental instability, broken home, victim mentality, lack of social support, failure of societal experts, online acquaintances who encourage violent behaviors) for a man to actually go on a killing spree. The vast majority of men who snap in these cases only commit suicide, and don’t physically harm anyone else in the process.
#455 you must not have read what he wrote. He said that learning to drive was a chore and he hated having to do it: he much preferred being chauffered. Similarly he exerted no effort, none nada zero zilch in actually trying to meet women.
#456
Yes, learning to drive was a PITA. I didn’t like it one bit. I failed the test three times. I’m introverted so I simply dislike interacting with people, either men or women, for longer periods of time. I know I’ll be under growing pressure to get married or at least enter a LTR. And yes, actually living with a woman and putting up with her sh*t is a chore, at least from my perspective. Interaction with women wasn’t a chore for this spree killer. He desperately wanted some warped emotional relationship with a unicorn woman that only existed in his head. It was a longing, not a chore. I have no such desires, thank you very much.
#446
“However, if he ever put his tenacity (141 page autobiography?) and intellect (1-1.5 std dev IQ) to good use, society would be more than happy to help itself to a quarter of his paycheck, because, you know, society really does look after him and his needs (snicker snicker).”
Good point. However, I’m not even sure he was ever going to get a job with such a warped mental state. I’ve read that one reason “little emperors” – i.e. only children of relatively wealthy urban married couples – are a growing problem in China is that they tend to be so psychologically screwed up that nobody wants to employ them because having to interact with them is a PITA.
And, unsurprisingly, more BS from the mainstream media:
rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/27/msnbcs-chris-hayes-open-carry-and-mens-rights-activists-share-misogynist-roots/
elitedaily.com/life/culture/fridays-mass-shooting-proves-misogynys-harm-society/609565/
prospect.org/article/how-pick-artist-philosophy-and-its-more-misogynist-backlash-shaped-mind-alleged-killer
Ultimately I think even this sort of publicity will be good publicity. I’m reminded of this quote:
“Men and women are going to need to become more alienated, not less, from each other as sexes in order for each, and especially for the programmed masses of women and WKs, to realize what has been lost, and to recognize what needs to be done to replace what has been lost. Simply holding men to “traditional gender roles” in a world which does no such thing for women, will not work, and will not do. Things need to get quite a bit worse than they are now before they have a hope in getting much better overall.”
http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/whistling-through-the-graveyard/#comment-43074
@JF12 456
Well I stand corrected. It’s true that I did not read through the manifesto. That being said, I still think the comment at 366 was unproductive. While it may be factually accurate, it doesn’t really add anything substantive to the conversation, aside from appearing to be a shaming/silencing tactic.
But perhaps I’m misreading the context or unaware of some previous conversation that makes it relevant. To me it looks like a “guilt by association” comment, implying that because HH holds a similar opinion to Rodgers that he is supposedly putting himself at risk of going violent himself. Am I misreading what you were trying to communicate?
My understanding is everything I come across is wanted so…
http://aattp.org/disgusting-tea-partier-blames-war-on-masculinity-for-ucsb-mass-shooting/
that is a sort of pass it on of this:
http://crooksandliars.com/2014/05/erik-erickson-claims-war-masculinity
IMO, too much interest in the social issues this guy was facing. Point is, he was nucking futz. Been in therapy since he was eight, including, apparently, a shelf-load of psychotropic drugs. How sick do you have to be to be noticed at eight? Alternatively, how sick do your parents have to be to put you in therapy at eight?
His manifesto manifests the autistic’s fanatical attention to detail and attention span. Could have been some other subject entirely. (Used to sit with one so his parents could get out, and it’s…interesting.) His manifesto happened to hit the hot button of several parts of society. Like McVeigh’s reasoning. Lots of people jumped on that one, for partisan purposes, or to satisfy the human longing to see order instead of chaos.
WRT being fooled…. Some years ago, I wanted to see what the seduction community, aka PUA was all about, No interest in checking in to any of the sites past the ads. Problem with the ads is they have to tell you a fair amount–known as spilling your candy in the lobby, for some reason, in the sales business–of what’s inside in order to get a sale and one of the promises was some version of, “tons of beautiful girlfriends in bars and clubs”.
So, presumably, you do what the gurus tell you and you don’t immediately have tons of beautiful girls in bars and clubs and the gurus tell you….keep doing it only do it more and better. And pony up another $129 for my next system.
If you’ve been lacking female company to a drought level and if even one reasonably attractive girl would be a start, and you buy the system, financially, or by believing it, and you do the work and put yourself out there….
You’d be just as pissed as the guy who finds out the blue pill is a lie. Whether PUA works or not is not the issue. It didn’t work in your case. It’s as if you swam to a life preserver, fought off two sharks and discovered it was sinking rapidly. Last chance freaking GONE. Of course you’d be irritated.
But in this case….
Guy was freaking crazy.
@Richard Aubrey:
You know, what’s interesting to me – and I say this as one who has indeed attended quite a few gatherings and meetings at “lairs” – is that the what I refer to as “quality control” discussion comes up, ONLY in the context of Pickup/Game – NEVER when it comes to the many, many things that are supposed to assist Women that fail much more often than not.
I wonder why that is?
I see it as sexist, to be frank. Sure, no one would deny that Pickup has its fair share of snakeoil salesmen and hucksters – but, couldn’t we say the exact same thing of the beauty business? Indeed, when taken proportionately, I would aver that the latter for exceeds the former on this core.
So…why no discussion, or even acknowledgement, if that on the part of our interlocutors?
Hmm?
O.
Sure, no one would deny that Pickup has its fair share of snakeoil salesmen and hucksters – but, couldn’t we say the exact same thing of the beauty business?
Why do they call it a wonder bra?
When she takes it off you wonder where her tits went.
@ HHH 410
I posted the following comment at the GMP site you linked:
“These books seek to “redefine what it really means to be an alpha male.” Really, it’s not just a bunch of cock-sure, arrogant and self-entitled assholes. It’s a gentleman.”
“The whole concept of the pick-up artist is about killing who you really are and replacing it with some peacocking bullshit.”
Funny, I can’t find this stuff in Roissy’s, Roosh’s, YaReally’s, or any other competent PUA site. Nowhere are men encouraged to act like “perfect gentlemen” nor is peacocking a major point. PUA sites recommend that men act like cocky jerks if they want to be attractive to women.
You might want to read my post about Sexual Dynamics, where I discuss the Chase, Grappling, and the Dance. Women like to be emotionally, socially, and sexually engaged. It’s part of mating and the PUA ideas feed into that.
“No, the YCC did not force Elliot Rodger to murder six people, but they gave him an outlet for his delusions, hate and entitlement to fester.”
“Enough with pick-up artists.” (PUA’s)
Rodger was active on an anti-PUA site. Funny that you seem to be anti-PUA as well.
“Alpha” is really a concept to describe men who are sexually attractive to women. There’s a lot of evo-psych BS that is added to the basic valid concept of an alpha. Betas are men who are unattractive to women. Like Elliott Rodger. All women who see his Youtube rant can tell that he’s unattractive, as can Red Pill men.
Disclosure: I was a PUA several decades ago and have been married for decades.
O.
My guess is that the quality control of those things supposed to help men is of interest to men and the quality control those things supposed to help women not of interest to men.
I’m not interested in haunting the various women’s sites to find out if they think one thing or another widely touted to women as a useful technique actually works.
I would suppose that whatever it is might work for some and not for others and maybe the distribution is widely dispropotionate.
For example, my wife and I and my sister knew–separately–women in college who had to dial it back in order to get through the day with less hassle. It’s one thing to wear a floppy sweatshirt and jeans to an eight o’clock class in a Big Ten January, particularly if, as was the case at my school, the class was in the dorm.
It’s another on a warm May day, especially if there isn’t going to be a chance to return to one’s domicile and change for a date, presuming one did want to ramp it up for the date. How do you dress then?
So there will be scads of advice from bloggers, advice gurus and commenters. And a lot of the folks will be complaining that it doesn’t work because nothing works all the time.
Anyway, even snake-oil salesmen can get it right for some guys, because there are so many types of guys. And the best can sometimes fail because there are so many types of guys.
My point was that for a single guy, finding that The System didn’t work as promised and possibly paid for is going to be as infuriating as discovering the blue pill he’d been following all along was a lie.
FWIW now that this comment will be buried 467 comments deep, but I just want to go on record here stating that I fully expect Aunt Giggles is already in negotiations with her paymasters at the HuffPo to do another on-air / on-net video interview as some ‘counter-expert’ on the Red Pill, that will in no way have any representation of any fact that will contradict her bias or commercial interests.
Don’t say I never said this wasn’t coming:
http://therationalmale.com/2013/04/02/its-their-game/
Here’s some more solipsism: http://atlasleft.org/look-feminists-brilliantly-destroy-madmans-claim-that-ucsb-murders-were-to-punish-women-for-rejecting-him-images/
Obsidian:
You wanted input from a black incel.
I got his permission, so here you go : http://dannyscorneroftheuniverse.blogspot.com/2014/05/im-sorry-elliot.html
Seems the articles are everywhere: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/the-santa-barbara-killer-is-a-product-of-our-culture-and-we-shouldn-t-hide-from-that-fact/1100-6419904/
@ Frimmel 468
I posted the following comment at the atlasleft site that you linked (it was in mod):
Elliott Rodger was half-Jewish/half Asian. He murdered four men and two women, yet he was misogynist? Why doesn’t the left claim that he was misandrist?
Elliott Rodger was entitled and vain–very feminine traits. His mannerisms and appearance were effeminate, which obviously would cause women to run from him, not attract them. ER claimed to be a “perfect gentleman,” which follows the feminist narrative about how men should behave in order to be attractive to women. Of course, being a “perfect gentleman” means being “an asexual pedestalizing suckup” whom women rightfully despise. So why aren’t there questions about the feminist narrative which specifies wrongly how men should behave in order to be attractive to women.
@ Richard Aubrey 466
My point was that for a single guy, finding that The System didn’t work as promised and possibly paid for is going to be as infuriating as discovering the blue pill he’d been following all along was a lie.
On the contrary, there is no evidence that he ever gave up the blue pill.
Gamer.
I wasn’t talking about Roger. I was talking about what happens to a single guy when he finds out he’s been lied to.
Finding out The System didn’t work means, he would think, he’s been lied to, as with the Blue Pill.
This was mildly entertaining. The girl in this vid spouted off nearly every feminist talking point imaginable:
http://www.upworthy.com/in-the-last-33-years-70-of-the-71-mass-murderers-in-the-us-all-had-1-thing-in-common?c=ufb1
part of a serious cultural illness that affect all of us, ESPECIALLY WOMEN, every single day
Yeah, honey. Because it’s not like this idiot killed more men than women.
[…] Just Four Guys: SPECIAL POST: Elliot Rodgers’ “Retribution Manifesto” […]
Sometimes, people understand the situation,
http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/05/remembering-the-young-men-killed-in-ucsb-rampage/
Another hit job on the sphere/mra’s and trying to link Rogers to us.
I only found it because of traffic heading my way.
They linked to me and once again have used my words out of context (forcing me to go in and put a quirky little edit on both my confessions post and the other post i linked to expanding on the ‘feelings’ section)
http://www.dailydot.com/news/elliot-rodger-mens-rights-activists/
I have also been approached by a reporter from NY who writes for http://www.vocativ.com to share some incites into incel. I agreed only to an email question/answer/followup style interview to keep a paper trail (to avoid those messy out of context quote mined hit jobs we all come to love… i’m looking at you 20/20) and so i can deliberate my answers in a non rushed manner. Should be interesting if he decides to follow up.
I’m gone to say to my little brother, that
he should also pay a visit this website on regular basis to get updated
from newest news.
Dread Game Update
Mrs. Gamer has been happy since last Wednesday with a mild hiccup Friday. She refuses to admit that other women might consider me attractive or that women are picky. Mrs. Gamer doesn’t want to admit that _she_ is significantly affected by preselection. She does say that I am _her_ hawt guy. The hamster is in overdrive. She is able to discuss topics related to my book without emotion overpowering her ability to reason. It seems that her insecurity is lessening.
@ Aubrey 473
What evidence is there that Rodger ever tried a real, effective system?
About reducing violence in general,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/06/10/the-best-way-to-end-violence-against-women-stop-taking-lovers-and-get-married/
Having read this I believed it was extremely informative.
I appreciate you spending some time and energy to put this article together.
I once again find myself spending way too much time both reading and commenting.
But so what, it was still worthwhile!
[…] SPECIAL POST: Elliot Rodgers’ “Retribution Manifesto … – Obsidian, thanks for jumping out ahead of this story. Three initial points. 1. Apparently Elliot Rodgers was very anti-manosphere, hated the fact that he observed …… […]