MEN: What Do You Wish Women Knew About You?

JFG commenter, practicallyperfect2, let us know she is working on a curriculum and program for young women and girls.  As part of this, she wants to let these girls know what guys are really thinking, what guys wish girls knew.  This would consist of what young men really think about a girl’s appearance and behaviors. It would also share young men’s perspectives on life and the challenges they face as men.

Here are some topics she wanted our take on:

  • What guys think is important, their perspective on life.
  • Guy talk:  how they speak differently than girls.
  • [In spite of what radfems say,] not all guys are evil.
  • Will a guy respect your personal boundaries and what to do if he doesn’t?
  • Men are visual; what you wear is not just a fashion statement; it is a signal to a man of what kind of attention you’re looking for.
  • What is important for a guy in a relationship?
  • What do guys think about being just friends?
  • What do guys think about sex?

Below is what Morpheus, Ted and I wrote back to her. We invite you, the reader, to add your take.

Morpheus

PP, It is great to have you commenting. You’ve given some great ideas for topics. I will say you could have some different opinions from guy to guy on some of those topics but there may be some general overlap of ideas across most guys, for example “being just friends” is rarely about being just friends but usually the “Game” beta orbiters run to eventually become something more. Generally, men don’t want or need women as friends because our interests tend more towards common activities that usually only men enjoy. Men don’t sit around and talk about feelings as part of being friends.

Ted

PP, I’ll second Morpheus in saying its great to have you around the blog!

As far as what I’d tell a young woman about men? Oh boy! LOL

Your list is pretty good, and I’d touch on pretty much the same subjects. More than anything, I would do my best to explain to young women that they simply ARE NOT THE SAME as young men. They don’t think the same, feel the same, or even view the world the same way. I’d try to impart on them that despite the popular message of the Strong Independent Woman, that the man in their life will want to be needed, want to be relied on, and want to feel like he is somehow contributing to her life and well being. That doesn’t mean men are looking for a mooch or a leech, but they want to feel necessary. So, being all independent is great in the office, but its OK to rely on your BF or husband to help you out. Hell, even if you don’t NEED the help, we like it when you ask. ;-)

Along those lines, a marriage isn’t a competition. You can be a ball buster at work, but don’t bring that attitude home. Most likely the guy your with wants to be your partner, and although it can be fun to have a bit of friendly competition between you, he doens’t want to constantly have power struggles with you at home. Every discussion doesn’t have to be a debate, and every decision doesn’t have to be drawn out like a congressional hearing.

Oh, and for the love of all that’s holy PLEASE tell them it is completely OK to be feminine!

Han Solo (my take after the bold text)

  • Guy talk, how they speak differently then girls.–guys are more blunt and don’t try to avoid offending the herd
  • Hey, not all guys are evil.–some guys are but women need to take more responsibility for what kind of men they are choosing. Choosing evil men only sends out the market signal that that’s what’s in demand. Also, trying to go for a man that’s out of your league doesn’t make him evil if he only wants sex with you and doesn’t fall in love–that’s just to be expected.
  • Will a guy respect your personal boundaries and what to do if he doesn’t?–most guys will…it’s usually the jerks or higher-value guys that don’t care and might not.
  • Men are visual; what you wear is not just a fashion statement; it is a signal to a man of what kind of attention you’re looking for.–Dave Chapelle has a great thing on this, of how if a man’s dressed like a cop you think he’s a cop…and same thing for women dressing like whores. [I’m not whore shaming, just passing on the Dave Chapelle humor. ;)]                                          
  • What do guy think about sex?–generally speaking, women can have sex with men that are more attractive (not just in terms of looks) than they can marry; in other words, men will have casual sex with women that they don’t see as high-enough value to marry; women need to decide if they want that or not.

Readers, please add your thoughts.  We didn’t address every point so please feel free to fill in the blanks along with answering points we already addressed.

147 thoughts on “MEN: What Do You Wish Women Knew About You?

  1. 1
    earl says:

    We can do most tasks in 1/4 to 1/2 the time it takes you.

  2. 2
    ddebois says:

    Question in order:
    1. Being a man other men respect and accomplishing meaningful work is important. Building a legacy whether business, empires, culture, family or all of those.
    2. Tend to be less involved with emotion and more with linear logic. Not always though if betrayal or defeat is involved.
    3. Men are quite often more trustworthy than women. We tend to stick to more abstract principles not letting current events make us emotionally waver from those beliefs. Making our behavior more trustworthy. Older men tend to trust women at their word less because we have seen women go against their principle quickly when it is convenient and then rationalize it in an emotionally charged way.
    4. Per the answer before boundary respecting is a product of a man’s principles. Choose the man with the right principles and he will tend to be fairly trustworthy in that regard.
    5. Absolutely, positively we are immediately assuming things about women by their appearance. For example a look that is sexy, with a modicum of self respect and dignity works for plenty of high quality men for LTR consideration.
    6. Faithfulness. Not just in sexuality but also guarding his reputation, in showing respect. Having enthusiastic sex. Having the self respect and honoring him by maintaining looks as best as possible.
    7. Opposite sex friendship is exceptionally rare. We know that your “just friends” males are guys hoping to eventually have sex with you. My few true female friends also have another relationship with me. A long time, trusted employee, my first cousin and a much older woman. Those friendships are still not as deep as my male friends.
    8. We find sex in our LTR as the most affirming thing in our relationship. Men can have sex outside the LTR and still strongly desire their mate. Women appear to have lost it for the current man and have moved on to the next if they do the same.

  3. 3
    Evil Franklin says:

    We don’t want a concensus. We want to get it done and move on to the next thing on our list.

  4. 4
    Tilikum says:

    the higher value the guy is and you want something long term, don’t try and use your sexuality to manipulate him. you are not fooling anyone and it can be seen as objectifying which is a big nono with an HVM. be better than the other 90% of women vying for his attention. smart, trustworthy, loyal, but still a challenge.

    true partners are next to impossible to find for a man with options, so act like one and if heis ready, he will never let you go.

  5. 5
    Joe Blow says:

    Once in a relationship, if you are nice to us – pleasant, warm, showing general concern for our welfare, and you do little things like packing a lunch for us – we’ll take a bullet for you, rarely if ever criticize, and treat you like a queen – a queen who makes our pants tight. Every little bit of un-niceness corrodes our investment in you. We are simple like that. Consider not telling us what you want but letting us be, and if you like us roll with it. We’re not projects. If something is really bugging you, let us know – but not in the form of recriminations. Sometimes it’s how we’re wired, sometimes we have a reason for doing particular things, and sometimes we just don’t know. Do some recon on the issue before you call in an airstrike.

    Expect us to lead, and if we’re slacking gently nudge us toward leadership, then be okay with it when we act like leaders. Don’t criticize; if something about us or our situation is making you unhappy, we’re more receptive to *how can we fix this* than we are to “you suck” or “this sucks.” We are fixers; we would rather be working out fingers to the bone to fix a situation, than sitting there in comfort drinking chai and emoting about how bad our current situation is. We don’t have feelings about most things. What we do have feelings about, we care about on a level that is so deep that it is extremely difficult to talk about – like trying to get a cup of water out of a dam’s overflow facility during a typhoon.

    Finally – if you are into being a woman for us, we will respect you and honor you and be very into being a man for you. If you are all about the Grrrrrrlllll Power and being equal and projects in your life that are strictly your own province, and you prioritize those, then all bets are off. This includes being content materially. Nothing stings a guy – including a super Alpha – like busting ass, putting a woman in a million dollar house, and finding out she wants a $5.6 million house in a different town. A little hypergamy is okay but try not to OD on it. We are not genetically wired to deal correctly with somebody who has the delusional mindset of a hyper competitive adolescent boy (all of whom are sure they can play in the NBA), but with tits. Does not compute.

  6. 6

    Women in general, at least in our society, are much more verbally aggressive than men, and their generally-higher verbal ability means that when they want to they can be extremely cutting. (The reason for the higher aggressiveness is probably that men tend to know that if they are overly insulting to another man, they are likely to get punched, or worse.)

    I have also seen a study somewhere that showed being in highly-emotional verbal conflict is more stressful to men than to women…again, probably because of automatic preparation of a fight-or-flight response and the associated hormonal activity.

    Women need to realize that hurtful comments to a boyfriend or husband can have serious long-term consequences for a relationship. Especially if the remarks are in any non-private setting.

    Several times I have heard women in public places (white, apparently upper-middle-class) speaking to their apparent husbands in a way no one should talk to a dog. Most likely, this reflects a pattern that began early in the relationship.

  7. 7
    YOHAMI says:

    Interesting stuff. In what kind of environment is she teaching this, I guess it’s a church?

    A lot of these question change if you ask them from the female perspective. A girl is not going to see “guys”, as a gender, she’s going to filter “guys she like”, “guys she really really dont like” and the majority “invisible guys”. The guys she likes capture her attention and make her curious, because she wants to get them. The guys she dont like only capture her attention when they are hitting on her and she wants to get rid of them. The rest of the guys, she doesnt care as long as they are nice and give her favors.

    So this quiz should be renamed to “how to gain understanding in the manipulation of men”

    So, girls, first thing, men are people, too.

    ————-

    What guys think is important, their perspective on life.

    Most men are concerned about how to be a good man / the best man they can be / trump other other men. Being a winner / being successful is tied to…. wait what? you’re bored already? that’s because Im actually talking about men, see, you didnt ask the real question:

    What do guys [I LIKE] think is important [ ABOUT ME AND RELATIONSHIPS WITH ME], their perspective on life [ AND IS IT COMPATIBLE WITH MINE?] – so now that you asked properly, here you go:

    Most of the guys you like just want to fuck you, if you’re lucky. Other than that they are interested on their own life path and the celebration of their manhood.

    What do the guys you like think is important [ABOUT YOU]: that you’re a pleasant person to be with, that you’re interested on them, that you’re receptive, that you’re drama free, that you’re delicate girly and fun.

    The perspective of life [OF THE GUYS YOU LIKE]: you have to screen them heavily and determine if they have a compatible lifepath. You probably want “more” and they want “less”, if that’s the case, two very important things:

    1) You might try to turn a casual relationship into a less casual one, but that’s what men call “drama”, and in reality, it is drama indeed, and your chances to getting what you want are really, really low, and the chances of keeping what you want are even lower. But if you really feel like playing lottery and losing everything, go ahead.

    2) Understand that the emotions you’re feeling and the reasons you like this guy so much, are fleeing and short term sighted. Yes, you’re immature and your emotions change a lot. What makes this dude a stud depends heavily on context. School, jobs, life, world will change, and when it does, your emotions for this dude will change too, and you’ll probably like another one. So, back to point 1, its a seriously bad investment to pursue a guy who doesnt want you for long term, when you’re not prepared for long term yourself, and, your own changing world and emotions are going to make you want out of the relationship even if you do get one. Got it?

    But, your life paths might be compatible, you might both want casual fun (if this is going to be taught in a church, good luck telling the truths to the girls, instead of trying to rationalize that they are actually going for marriage with every guy who makes them hot), or you both might want long term stuff, and if it aligns, go ahead!

    If the guy you want more with want less, next him. If a guy wants more with you that you want with him, next him, too. Oh, the balance. Maybe keep him close just in case.

    And the guys you dont like or the invisible ones, you didnt ask.

    ———————

    Guy talk: how they speak differently than girls.

    The main difference is that guys focus on data and girls focus on emotions. Subject and context. Ah, not that you care.

    How do the guys [I LIKE] speak different than girls [ AND HOW TO KNOW WHEN HE’S HITTING ON ME AND HOW DO I TALK TO HIM TO GET HIM? ]

    Just like when you like a guy you seek opportunities where he can make a move, a guy will seek opportunities to do stuff that makes you feel. He will say that will make you feel. His language is going to be bold, risky, and progressive.

    [ HOW DO I TALK TO HIM IF HE’S NOT HITTING ON ME?]

    He might not get all the hints, since guys, specially the ones you like, tend to be more on the non-subtle kind of communication, they are more direct and blunt. So if he’s not pursuing you, make it even easier for him to approach you. Ask him to walk you back home, let him be alone with you, touch him (arm, skin), hug him, be receptive to him touching you back, smile a lot.

    Last – and definitive last resource, open your mouth and tell them you like them. Why last resource? because being blunt and frontal is male thing. Whenever you act like a man you’re becoming less attractive in the feminine way. You have plenty of weaponry to make HIM make the move. Doing the move yourself, save that for the very very last resource.

    [ HOW DO I TALK TO HIM WHEN WE’RE IN A RELATIONSHIP ]

    Wait what? ask the real question.

    [ HOW DO I MAKE HIM DO WHAT I WANT WHEN WE’RE IN A RELATIONSHIP ]

    Here’s where you can learn to be more blunt and direct in a way that will not scare away your dude but instead make him be more appreciative of you, and hold you like the treasure you really are.

    Your subtle ways of communicating, which might work with your other girls and the invisible but friend guys, wont work with this man, he’ll instead be annoyed by it and call it drama, since men (you like) are ill-prepared to handle nonsensical emotionally charged whinery, nagging, ultimatums, threats of withdrawal and outbursts.

    So whenever you want him to do something, ask. Ask, dont tell, dont give orders, because if you do manage to make him into the kind of man who takes orders from you, you’ll turn him into one of the invisible, or worse, one of the not liked ones. You want a better man, let him be one. Ask. You need something. Ask for it. Then let him take charge.

    ————————–

    [In spite of what radfems say,] not all guys are evil.

    Poisoning the well uh? Sure, not all men are evil, just like not all germans are pedophiles. The vast majority of men are good. Your problem is that most of the guys you like are bad for – your agenda.

    [ NOT ALL GUYS I LIKE ARE EVIL ]

    Try again.

    [ NOT ALL GUYS I LIKE JUST WANT TO FUCK ME AND DUMP ME ]

    Most of them, yes. But why were you calling them “evil”? projecting much? sure, they are bad news or bad investments, depending on what you want with them. But if guys having fun are “evil” so are sluts and girls who’re not marriage oriented. Start calling sluts evil and shaming women this freely, then we can talk.

    The next thing you have to know is that all these invisible guys doing nice things for you also want to fuck you, so by your definition of evil, they are evil. Their evilness is different though. They perceive you to be so above of themselves, they wouldnt dream to be able to get any better than you, how’s that for your self steem? so they would like to fuck you and keep you, aka “be in a relationship”, and are deathly afraid to scare you, make you feel unconfortable, and all they wish in the world is to make you happy and make you see them as man. Yeah, these invisible man, all they want to to be seen.

    So they can wipe out the dick.

    I know, they have issues right?

    Most of the guys you dont like also want to fuck you. The rule is simple: is this man giving you attention? then he probably wants to fuck you.

    Which doesnt make them evil, just move accordingly. You’re welcome.

    ——————-

    Will a guy respect your personal boundaries and what to do if he doesn’t?

    The vast majority of men will respect your personal boundaries so much you will not even realize these men exist.

    [ WILL A GUY I LIKE RESPECT MY PERSONAL BOUNDARIES ]

    No. If he does, try being sexier.

    A guy you like will play with your personal boundaries. He will tease you, break promises, make you angry, but also give you surprises, unexpected signs of affection. He will push forward when you’re not sure. He’ll say yes when you say no. He’ll say no when you say yes. But when you both agree on something its going to be magical. He’s just doing his own regardless of the boundaries you attempt to impose. He will not bend when you change your boundaries, he will not bend when you push and pull and try to manipulate. Over time you’ll sense that his own boundaries are strong enough to protect you both, and that your inherent volatility gets better, more calm and merry when you surrender your own boundaries to him, so you can merge.

    The eye you have to keep is: when you surrender, does he protect you, or abuse you? When you give in, does he value you more, or does he take you for granted? Measure your own state. More times than not you’ll want to do this with a man with whom you should not do this.

    [ WILL A GUY I DONT LIKE RESPECT MY PERSONAL BOUNDARIES ]

    Its a coin flip. Probably the guy doesnt even know he’s violating your personal boundaries, since they are being violated by him just being in the same room. Maybe you tried to soft that away by being friendly and now he thinks he has a chance, and will take rejection badly or he’s not being direct enough (yet) for you to properly reject him. Lots of personal boundaries crossed in the meanwhile.

    Make such guys even more invisible.

    Dont put yourself in situations where they can make a move. Dont deal with them. Ignore them. This includes not flaunting in front of the dudes you like in the same areas where the dudes you dont like hang out, because, while most of the invisible guys will consider you out of reach and never approach you, and the few ones who do will be very polite and actually give you a self esteem boost, there’s no way for you not to also stimulate the guys you dont like, and a few of them will approach you too, which you will then consider a violation of your personal boundaries.

    Thats what you get for having personal boundaries what work like a vip social club.

    Never said this was easy.

    —————

    Men are visual; what you wear is not just a fashion statement; it is a signal to a man of what kind of attention your looking for.

    In other words, sell sex and men will buy it. Show that you’re sexually available and you’ll get men asking you how available you are.

    This includes all men, from the men you dont like to the men you like very much, so play this card wisely.

    —————

    What is important for a guy in a relationship?

    That you let him be captain.

    That you dont put him down by constantly challenging his manhood – when he cannot respond to you in the same way we would to another man.

    That you care about his emotional state, rather than only worrying about your own.

    That you’re stable, but not rigid.

    That you provide a safe haven for him to go back to.

    Dont use love / sex as bargaining coins.

    … Ah, sorry, I got carried away, you were asking?

    [ HOW DO I MAKE THIS GUY WANT A RELATIONSHIP WITH ME, AND HOW DO I KEEP HIM THERE ]

    Make him feel the best man he can be when he’s with you. Make him feel this is how it will be forever. Then keep your promise.

    This will involve taking his needs above yours a lot of the time.

    Thats how you make someone feel special after all.

    Find someone you do consider to be this special, so you can put him first and still feel lucky that you got him.

    ———————-

    What do guys think about being just friends?

    Men hate it. What’s the question?

    [ I REJECTED A DUDE AND TOLD HIM TO BE FRIENDS ]

    “Being friends” means that you plan on using the sexual capital that you have, and the emotions he invested on you, and get favors, attention, and increase your social circle. If their interest is fading then you might increase it by rubbing it a bit.

    If the dude rejected the offer he’s a wise man, maybe you didnt give him enough credit. Clap clap.

    If the dude accepted this “friendship” he’s a wanker. Fap fap.

    [ I TOLD A GUY I LIKE, LETS BE FRIENDS FIRST ]

    So you want to be friends and let it evolve slowly? good luck. Are you actually putting him in the backburner while you see how things work out with another dude? you’re probably going to stop liking this dude the moment he agrees to be friends first, right? and even if you do end up with him, your mind will wander around.

    Hopefully he said “no thanks, I’ve got enough friends” or “yeah sure” then disappeared. Then you know you really had a catch there. You can still always change your mind.

    [ I GUY I LIKE TOLD ME TO BE FRIENDS, BUT HE’S VERY MUCH INTO ME ]

    He wants to fuck you or even romance you, he just doesnt know what his chances are. Keep teasing him and increasing the price, see how much he’ll put on the table. Enjoy.

    [ I GUY I LIKE TOLD ME TO BE FRIENDS, AND NOW HES JUST LIKE ANOTHER FRIEND ]

    Finally, a guy who sees you like a person, and maybe a nice one to have for a booty call.

    [ I GUY I DONT LIKE TOLD ME TO BE FRIENDS ]

    He wants to get in your pants.

    —————

    What do guys think about sex?

    This is why girl’s world is so confusing – for a man, fuck, even for most girls if they come from a different social circle, then the same words carry completely different meaning.

    You never ask what you want to know, and you never say what you want to say. Whenever you say something the context of it is implicit, and rarely questioned, for other girls who also “get it”. Every girl “knows” what this question is about, and if she doesnt then she most be from “other place” then she deserves to be shunned out.

    Girls will ask questions like, this, like this whole questionary, and the inflection of the voice, a small wink, a gesture with the hand, and even the place where the questions are taking place (its different if they are asked at the church, at the office, at the bar, at the pool) – and the social role of the person asking the question, all the factors are taken into account and they actually, factually, change the question, and then a completely different response to it is perfectly valid and reasonable.

    Fuck you girls. So complex.

    Do you know what guys think when they read that question?

    They, we, go back to our own ideology about it, then recite it. Then of course you’re disappointed because we didnt “listen”.

    This is what you want to know:

    [ WHAT IS EXPECTED FROM ME IN TERMS OF HAVING SEX, AND HOW CAN I USE IT TO GET WHAT I WANT?]

    See? a huge, immense departure from the ridiculously innocuous “what do guys think about sex”, which you dont really give a fuck about.

    What men (you like) want is a conundrum for you.

    Men (you like) want to make sure they can have sex with you relatively easy. The initial sex can be preceded by a little chase and work on their part, or even full commitment, but then the sex should be abundant, varied, and never boring. At the same time, that same sex should be completely out of reach for any other man that ever existed or will.

    So. What should be easy and abundant for this man should be impossible to get for any other man.

    Your sex is his, and only his, possession.

    Give him the power.

    That’s the trick you need to pull off.

    On the same hand, any behavior he might interpret as being slutty – meaning you’re up for the take for any other man will decrease your perceived value in his eyes. This can happen retroactively, or can happen as a projection to the future.

    Then this will vary from man to man, as everything varies to woman to woman on every subject.

    If you create jealousy or do withdrawal or you make this man compete with other men or circumstances, for a while he might do the fight to get you back and make you his. But you only got so many tickets for that show.

    If you prove that you can be with other men, and you’re not only his, he’s gone.

    If you prove that you’re committed to him and only him and he’s the only one, you’ve got this man for life.

    So summing it up, use sex wisely.

    If you give sex too easily, he’ll think you do the same with every other man since he didnt get to quality to you means, you dont qualify guys before getting in bed. And he’ll probably be right, you’re not worth commitment.

    If you make sex impossible or too hard, this man will think you’re not into him.

    If you have sex with some dude with ease, but then want to make another dude work for it, that other dude will feel you’re not into him or that he has less value than the guy who got it easy. And he’s probably right.

    If you act like a slut, he wont commit. But you can be his, and only his, slut.

    Gotcha?

    Or, maybe you all girls are in church. If so please save sex for marriage and go back to your bible.

  8. 8
    crowhill says:

    I’m a married man. I don’t give a crap what “women” know about me. I only care about one woman.

  9. 9
    Jen says:

    “What do guys think about just being friends?”

    I think my husband and Yohami agree on this. My husband has a standard translation for what girls mean when they tell a guy they “just want to be friends”…

    Translation – I want us to be friends – the kind of friends that don’t call, message each other or speak to each other – the kind of friends that never see each again…O.K?

    I laugh whenever I hear my husband volunteer his translation to somebody. He always says it with a hint of humor – but it is so true.

  10. 10
    earl says:

    We need some alone/relax time. Nothing against you…but peace and quiet are up there on the list of everything a man needs at least once during the day. It’s like a mental reset button, time to talk with God, or something to make him forget about the struggles in the world for a moment. The more introverted he is…the more he needs this time.

  11. 11

    […] You can go to JFG and read Morpheus, Ted and Han Solo’s responses. Here’s my take. […]

  12. 12
    A Definite Beta Guy says:

    Yohami effectively sums up a lot of it, especially the question of sex.

    In fact I almost feel that there is basically no point in continuing beyond that. Hmmmm.

    What I will say is this: women are boring. Women are basically so boring I would rather sit in church for an hour, or sort through mail at work for an hour, or hell do call-training at an Indian call center for an hour, than deal with almost any woman one on one for an hour as she treats me like one of her girlfriends.
    I would rather accept a .1% chance of death than sit through girl-talk.
    I say this because “just friends” with a girl is a stupid concept to me. Men are simply more interesting to me. I find most other men think the same way, except that they like a bubbly girl, cause, you know, she’s got some sexual energy to her.
    Men think about sex at a subconscious level. If a robot asks us for charity money, we will give more money if the robot has a young, feminine voice. So don’t ask your guy friends “well, you don’t really want to sleep with me,” becuase they might say yes, and they might even believe it, but a lot of this stuff is deep-rooted and not conscious.
    Women+men=close friends? Yeaaaaa…..no.
    Let’s be the kind of friends who don’t talk to each other.

    Additonally, just because a guy does not display aggressive sexuality in public, does not mean he is not aggressively sexual. Gentleman on the streets, Ogre in the bed, is a very real thing.

    Regarding boundaries: what Yohami said, and I am just going to reinforce this here. Your boundaries suck. I am going to test them and hopefully change them BECAUSE they suck. That doesn’t mean you should sleep with every Tom, Dick, and Harry, but understand any men can and SHOULD test your boundaries and your limits and over time you should expect them to change dramatically.
    On the other hand, if you test the boundaries of a determined, well-established man…just don’t do it. Okay?

    That’s more general. I do not know if I have any specific advice, being something of an anomaly here as N=1, Beta, about to be married guy, who considers himself Red-Pill. Let me think about that. What I would say is this:
    Beta does not mean Nice.
    More of a word of caution…you might be used to pushing guys around….Beta does not mean nice

  13. 13
    Tasmin says:

    Yohami. Solid framing skills. Well put.

  14. 14
    Badger says:

    This topic is juicy, I am going to try to keep the discussion to male traits and not deliver instruction to women, but there are key lessons for any woman reading this. I don’t mean any of this as a complaint and neither do most of the other guys, just as observation, so it’s helpful as you read this entire thread to avoid thinking about it as a venting session or an attack and more as an opportunity to hear the unvarnished truth in a way you’ll never get in face to face discussion (esp with the men you know personally).

    -One of the most important things has already been discussed but I will elaborate: men are tested and competed with every day of their lives. At almost every stage of life, men are under nearly-constant need to prove themselves. Whether it’s with their pre-teen or teen peers on the playground, or with their fathers or brothers or other male elder figures who are trying to level them up, or with the bosses or the pressures of their jobs (and the pressure to provide for their families), or with the pressure to approach women, or the imperative to “man up” and get over a tough situation without the sort of emotional support women are allowed to ask for, the man who’s trying to do it right faces a lot of competition and testing.

    I discussed this concept in a post here: http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2012/10/15/educated-womens-contempt-for-men/

    And specifically referenced a live rendition of Bruce Springsteen’s “Prove It All Night” where he quotes a (possibly apocryphal) cab driver:

    “all day long you gotta prove it your boss, at night you gotta go home and prove it to your wife, on the weekend you gotta prove it to your kids…it just seems the joke’s on you, it never lets up.”

    It’s one of the joys of good male friendship that you don’t feel like you need to prove yourself repeatedly, they can take you as you are. By the same token, men deeply, deeply value a relationship with a woman that is an oasis rather than another edition of the testing and competition that is the lot of men in society. (I find that when confronted with this truth, women normally respond with a paranoid frame of “but if I don’t test him and nag him he will get lazy and loafy!” Try honey instead of vinegar and see how it works for you.)

    -Following from the above point, I have talked with Morpheus a lot about this and we both think that women flat do not understand how incredibly unattractive it is when a woman tries to compete with or one-up her man, especially in public. A woman who is trying to show off that she’s better than us portends relationship drama and malignant status anxiety (hypergamy). Women who backlead in dancing has the same effect. Most men (i.e. the ones who are not highly alpha or very extroverted) do not view shit tests or an affected “fesitiness” as a fun sort of play-fighting social game. They view it as profoundly childish and annoying.

    Acting out in public is a sure way to get nexted. A story: I had been seeing a woman for a few dates when I brought her to a house party. My friend’s alma mater had just beaten my school in hoops, and he good-naturedly gave me some grief for it. This was typical male joking around, but she joined in mocking my team’s misfortunes. That was it…whatever relationship potential she had was instantly gone. She was bumped to Ladder 2, I banged her for a couple months until I got bored and then dumped her.

    The thing is that after reading lots of female commentary at HUS and elsewhere, I get the impression that a lot of this one-up activity is a big shit test, trying to bait the man into one-upping her back and calming her anxiety that he’s “man enough” to take her shit. And so I think women are even more confused when a man shies away from playing that game. I think a lot of women have no idea how many potential relationships they’ve cost themselves by trying to “compete” with their quarry instead of finding ways to act complementary.

  15. 15
    Badger says:

    -Many men have been deeply confused by the last two generations of feminism and feminization. I won’t belabor as it’s been discussed ad nauseum but understand that it’s a very confusing world for most guys who just want to live decent, honorable lives by the standards taught to them by their mothers, sisters and teachers but find a lot of contempt from and failure with women who think they are too wishy-washy and “nice” to make them tingle.

    If you want your man to be more “manly” and resolute, you’ll need to reinforce that behavior by rewarding with action and also telling him you like it when he acts that way…don’t make it a guessing game where he never really knows how you react to him.

    -Frat guys are jocks are far from the “winners among men.” Most guys don’t want to be frat guys or “bros” or jocks with outsized egos, and think those guys are jackasses, we’d never let them into our homes, and would be deeply disappointed if our sons aped their behaviors. Those are relatively small subcultures of men and that hot girls seem to respond to them says more about women’s tastes that what sort of traits men prize in other men…if I can make an analogy, it’s the same way that who your boss is (most people hate their bosses) says more about the upper management and shareholder pressures than about who is good at their job and good at relating to/managing their coworkers.

    -Understand that for a man, it’s very difficult to switch between different “styles.” Feeling very solid and consistent in your frame is part of feeling good as a man, and regard other men who shapeshift as treacherous and untrustworthy. If a guy is generally very mechanical and practical, he’s going to be hard-pressed to transform into a smooth romantic when he is around women (those guys are a huge market for Game). If he’s sort of effete and artistic, don’t expect him to rise up into a fighter when someone starts messing with him (or with you). A dude who is an inveterate player and committed bachelor is going to find the skills and challenges of monogamous life to be a challenging adjustment.

    There are guys who can do this, but they are either extremely psychologically talented, or sociopathic, or some combination of the two. I actually think I do a good job playing multiple styles because I have an eclectic personality but I am an exception even in my own social group.

    I note this because I find women on dating sites bragging about style-switching (“I am comfortable in a dress and heels or in sweatpants and a tshirt”), and I read/hear women saying they expect the shapeshifter from their man (“I found a great beta guy, but his betatude is ruining his game!”)

    -The things that your friends (or other women who may not be your friends) value about you are usually not the things men will value in you. In particular, what women think is “hot” on another woman often differs with what a man thinks is hot about a woman (for an illustration, check out the cover girls on women’s magazines versus men’s magazines), and the personality factors that girls will tell you makes you a “Catch” may not really matter the same way to a man looking for a relationship. I’m not arguing that one side or the other is right, but you need to be aware that your own gender may not be giving you a realistic impression of what men would be interested in about you.

    -Semi-subconsciously, men typically have two ladders: girls we’d consider a relationship with, and women we will have sex with if convenient but not invest further in. (Think about the old cultural meme of “a girl you’d take home to mom” and you’re getting there.) I had a classic post about this so I won’t go further here: http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/ladder-theory-for-men/

  16. 16
    Badger says:

    -When being friends with a man, consider whether he has sexual options (a good gf/wife or quality dating prospects); _if he doesn’t_, consider seriously that he’s trying to leverage his friendship into something else. Before you judge and criticize him for his scheme, be aware that men have been specifically told by girls and the media all their lives that “be friends first” is a viable romantic strategy. Thinking back on my past, I’ve actually had a lot of good female friends, but I recall that in times when I didn’t have many other options, I _subconsciously_ tried to leverage my friendships into relationships. The irony is that when I DID have dating options, I probably had the preselection, vibe and position of strength to promote a friend to a lover.

    -All of these generalizations don’t necessarily hold for each individual man. (You can learn your man by paying attention to his behavior, listening to him with focus, and not emoting back or arguing with what he says so he feels it’s safe to share.

    -Paired with the above: there’s a lot of stuff your man isn’t going to tell you, either because he doesn’t want to admit it to himself, or because he thinks it will get him in trouble with you or cost him status in your eyes. For example we JFG guys know to limit the displays of weakness to our women.

    -A key difference I’ve noticed in gender wrt social interaction: if two dudes have a misunderstanding and get pissed at each other, once the misunderstanding is resolved, the feelings are resolved as well. Example: my buddy thinks I’m coming to his party, when I told him that I was 50-50, and then I wind up not being able to go. He gets upset when (in his view) I ditch, I explain that we must have miscommunicated because I knew I might not be able to go. He’s “oh sorry my bad; it’s cool” and life goes on without passion or prejudice.

    I’ve observed women to operate otherwise: if there’s an innocent misunderstanding with a girl, I find that along with resolving the misunderstanding, I also have to treat the “emotional wound” as well, even though I’ve done nothing wrong (which creates a challenge of tending to her feelings without framing it as I am in the wrong…it can be done).

    -My male friends don’t expect me to put them first, to defer to them and try to kiss their butts. I am supportive of my pals, but we expect each other to do what’s best for us as individuals, not trying to defer in status to the others to show what team players we are.

    -Following up on the “feelings” point: men are not defective women. Humble yourself to the fact that you don’t know everything about men. Self-examine and come to realize the times when you are projecting; learn to check yourself in those thought patterns.

  17. 17
    Uncle Elmer says:

    Men want wives, not co-workers, and are wholly unimpressed with your career aspirations. The more young women crow about competing with men the less interesting they become. However, having intelligence and talents that can be directed towards home-making and being a fun companion are very attractive to men. It is imperative for young women to know rudimentary cooking skills and approach the job with enthusiasm and cheerfulness.

    http://www.the-spearhead.com/2012/02/20/a-man-wants-a-wife-not-a-co-worker

  18. 18
    Han Solo says:

    Many good points by many, particularly Yohami and Badger. Thanks to all for the discussion.

  19. 19
    Badger says:

    Can’t wait to see some feminists’ heads explode when they get linked to this post. Their first response, reading only the title, will no doubt be “YOU SHOULD NEVER MEASURE YOURSELF BY HOW YOU PLEASE A MAN! HOW SEXIST!!1!”

    Then of course we’ll hear about how we are misogynistic, controlling, weak, jealous, small-dicked losers who never get laid, and how their husbands/boyfriends/booty calls would NEVER think ANY of thoughts we are putting to paper.

    We’ve seen this movie before.

    Carry on.

  20. 20
    Han Solo says:

    Badger 19

    It’s important to have spaces where men can feel comfortable saying what they really think and feel. I am glad that JFG is one such place where the “you’re sexist” censorship doesn’t exist. Wise women will read these kind of comments and get a lot of insight they might not get from the heavily self-censored and tailored attitudes that men express to them in person.

  21. 21
    Jimmy says:

    Many guys have shared my thoughts better than I ever could (particularly Badger), but I’ll give it a go:

    What guys think is important, their perspective on life.
    I could write a whole book on this… but to echo what other guys have said here, feeling needed is a core tenant to a lot of guys’ self worth.

    Guy talk: how they speak differently than girls.
    I usually try to remain tactful in most situations, but with other guys I know I don’t have to dance around particular points if I don’t want to. I can say what I think, and if feathers get ruffled we can just agree to disagree and move on, and I don’t have to worry about it being held against me going forward.

    [In spite of what radfems say,] not all guys are evil.
    From my experience, the vast majority of guys out there are good people.

    Will a guy respect your personal boundaries and what to do if he doesn’t?
    To continue from above, I do think the vast majority of guys have respect for girls’ boundaries… the caveat, though, is how those boundaries are framed. If they’re framed from a soft, feminine POV, they’re going to trigger most guys’ protective instincts. But if they come from a girl who’s ball busting, competitive, and yes, overly confident, it’s likely going to trigger the guy’s competitive instincts, and he’s going to want to break through the boundaries.

    If a guy doesn’t respect a girl’s boundaries… well, he’s already made that decision. There’s nothing she can do to convince him otherwise. The smartest thing she can do is just not associate with him anymore.

    Men are visual; what you wear is not just a fashion statement; it is a signal to a man of what kind of attention your looking for.
    Absolutely. The thing is, it’s entirely possible for a girl to be attractive without being overtly sexual. Every guy has different tastes, but from my perspective, classy and feminine trumps in your face sexy every time. Long hair + moderate makeup + sun dress + smile will win me over every time.

    Sexier options obviously work on me too, but as badger pointed out above, it doesn’t exactly inspire me to “take her home to mom.”

    Again, a girl has to decide if she wants to inspire men’s protective instincts or competitive instincts.

    What is important for a guy in a relationship?
    For me, it really all boils down to being loved, respected, and yes, admired for who I am. That means not trying to change me, not being a means to an end so a girl can just check something off her required life experiences list, etc. I’m not going to spiral out of control without words of admiration, but damn, they sure do energize me. Again, it’s all about inspiring the protective instinct.

    What do guys think about being just friends?
    I actually have quite a few girls I’d consider good acquaintances… but they’re nothing remotely close to my male friendships. And I really have no desire to have that kind of friendship with any girl unless I’m in a relationship with her.

    What do guys think about sex?
    As others have said, the desire for sex with girls I find attractive is always a constant hum. Couldn’t get away from it if I tried. With that said, inside a relationship I think sex is the best way to create bonding in couples. Just as girls feel loved from commitment, guys feel loved through sex with a girl they care about. Stop the sex, and the guy stops feeling loved.

  22. 22
    Jimmy says:

    Also want to repeat this thought from Badger, because I couldn’t agree more:

    Following from the above point, I have talked with Morpheus a lot about this and we both think that women flat do not understand how incredibly unattractive it is when a woman tries to compete with or one-up her man, especially in public. A woman who is trying to show off that she’s better than us portends relationship drama and malignant status anxiety (hypergamy). Women who backlead in dancing has the same effect. Most men (i.e. the ones who are not highly alpha or very extroverted) do not view shit tests or an affected “fesitiness” as a fun sort of play-fighting social game. They view it as profoundly childish and annoying.

    I’ve lost count of how many girls I’ve originally been attracted to, but lost that attraction after her “feistiness” reared its ugly head.

  23. 23
    Badger says:

    Another thought that has come into my head:

    -Male attraction is far less contextual than female. That is to say that we place far less weight on a woman’s fashion sense, “confidence” (in the personality sense), career, social status, or other men who are interested in you, than women tend to wrt men. For a man: do you have attractive physical features? Are you communicating that you want to have sex with me? I’m probably turned on.

    -TL;DR for the above: your degree doesn’t give us a boner, also fat is gross.

    -Another TL;DR for the above: don’t be bashful in the sack. Be ready to enjoy things or just tell him you’re not ready or not that night.

  24. 24
    YOHAMI says:

    Good stuff Badger

  25. 25
  26. 26
    Jimmy says:

    @Badger

    Another TL;DR for the above: don’t be bashful in the sack. Be ready to enjoy things or just tell him you’re not ready or not that night.

    Adding to that, from my perspective 80% of a girl being good in bed is simply showing genuine enthusiasm and excitement for being there. The rest is just good communication and fine tuning, and I’m more than willing to be patient with that if she’s putting in honest effort (particularly if she doesn’t have much experience).

  27. 27
    Rick says:

    Badger says:
    “This was typical male joking around, but she joined in mocking my team’s misfortunes. That was it…whatever relationship potential she had was instantly gone. She was bumped to Ladder 2, I banged her for a couple months until I got bored and then dumped her.”

    Wait … she said something about a team, a frikkin team, a bunch of guys you don’t know, and it was ok for another guy to do it, but because you’re stronger than her (cause the guy would punch you in the face if you didn’t take it), you decided it was ok to use her callously, i.e. use her body with no interest in her as a person, then discard her. Rather than be honorable and ‘discard’ her when she first ‘offended’ you.

    Badger is not a man. Bader is a little boy. Don’t justify this baby behavior in the name of being a ‘man’.
    A real Man is honorable. Would you like a ‘man’ just like you to do this your daughter? No, I thought not.

  28. 28
    YOHAMI says:

    “Rick”, Im bored.

    “she said something about a team, a frikkin team, a bunch of guys you don’t know, and it was ok for another guy to do it”

    He’s not fucking / nor romantically involved with that dude.

    A male friend will always bust your ballz. Challenging you on your manhood and making fun of you is part of friendship. Which doesnt make you want to have have sex with them, start a family, nor develop romantic feelings. Unless you’re Rick.

    The issue here is that she took an opportunity where a stranger, another man is AMOGing her lover. A perfect opportunity to show how much she’s bonding to him and take sides, but instead she takes sides with the AMOGer and helps humiliate Badger.

    Take that as one side of her personality which can serve as a pattern a lot of times during the relationship. Do you want to build on top of that? no?

    “but because you’re stronger than her (cause the guy would punch you in the face if you didn’t take it),””

    You obviously dont know shit about how men deal this power plays.

    “you decided it was ok to use her callously, i.e. use her body with no interest in her as a person, then discard her. Rather than be honorable and ‘discard’ her when she first ‘offended’ you.””

    I would have discarded her right away, probably. On the other hand, she also didnt respect Badger nor was honorable, and she herself didnt foresee any future with him, or she wouldnt have chosen that move. So Badger probably just leveled things down, and their used their bodies mutually till one of them got better things to do.

    Happens all the time.

  29. 29
    Jimmy says:

    Right on cue…

  30. 30
    Badger says:

    “Badger is not a man. Bader is a little boy.”

    I LOL’d so hard when I read this!

  31. 31
    Armchair Quarterback says:

    fwiw – I’m a 43 yo guy and have been in good marriage for 20 yrs – and my experience is probably not typical – (my guess is most guy’s experiences are not typical fwiw) – so take all of this with grain of salt – but

    What guys think is important, their perspective on life.
    – As I look back I think my career goals centered on doing interesting things and making a secure life. Saving money, paying off house/debt – achieving a degree of independence/freedom from the “grind” was very important.

    Guy talk: how they speak differently than girls.
    – I think alot of guys tend to talk about and are passionate about unimportant stuff (football for example) because work often takes up most of the serious space. Guys are very different around groups of other guys because guard is down. From my perspective, most guys I hung out with at work were guarded with women around – especially in work environment – because we were all afraid of getting an HR file opened on us if we said something edgy. Ultimately this means guys will hesitate to even innocently complement a female in work environment in any traditional way – it’s dangerous to do so. This probably makes it difficult for guys to have tight friendships with women in a work environment – it’s just not safe to let women on the inside of a guy group because it’ll potentially get you in trouble/possibly fired. One of my best friends at work was a more observant than I was and he could always ferret out ulterior motives of different people at work. I’d generally go into meetings blunt and firing questions/opinions away – and he’d usually sit back and watch. Later on we’d talk about and he’d tell me what he thinks “is really going on”. He’d warn me when he thought something else was going on underneath the surface – and I think he was usually right.

    As to conversation between guys – it’s usually just alot of sniping banter. Either that or talking about some problems we’re working on. (I worked in a corporate environment so alot of us worked on similar issues and could brainstorm). Guys are generally supportive of each other in my experience. We wouldn’t hang out with anybody or limit our dealings with those that weren’t that way.

    [In spite of what radfems say,] not all guys are evil.
    – I don’t really have any comments here. All the guys I hung out with were/are good guys, and I have no real patience for a guy who’s not a good guy. The married guys where I worked seemed to be in good marriages (one guy had a pretty rough divorce – wife walked out on him – he came home from a business trip and she was gone – I don’t know the whole story – but this was not the norm) – at least not many complaints that we talked about.

    Will a guy respect your personal boundaries and what to do if he doesn’t?
    Not sure what this means. Unwanted attention?

    Men are visual; what you wear is not just a fashion statement; it is a signal to a man of what kind of attention you’re looking for.
    Not sure what to say here, and I’m probably atypical – but thinking back when I was younger I just remember using clothing as a proxy for “Is she high maintenance?”

    What is important for a guy in a relationship?
    It’s hard to boil this down – and it’ll probably sound cliche, but simple things like trust, support, and working as a team are important to me. Understanding what is important to me and building that into action is important. Money and how it is spent can be a big conflict so working that out is very important. Minimizing money problems/not stretching finances/avoiding debt and sharing common goals makes everything much easier.

    What do guys think about being just friends?
    I’ve never had close female friends other than my wife. Women are generally interested in other things, and that’s OK with me.

    What do guys think about sex?
    Let’s face it – if it wasn’t for sex girls probably would have little interest in guys,and guys would have little interest in girls. It’s a biological thing – not much more in my view. I will say this though: A guy’s self-confidence is to a degree tied up in sex. I’ve tried to think about why this is so, but can’t understand what’s is going on. It’s like trying to explain how we maintain balance, or how we breath. There’s something deep in the psyche – but in a way sex seems to send out signals that things are good/life is OK. I doubt if success in other areas of life can successfully substitute. Maybe sex is kindof like Prozac for guys?

  32. 32
    Retrenched says:

    Love it when female trolls use male names — as if we can’t tell from the writing style that they’re women.

  33. 33
    YOHAMI says:

    They use male names but write with their vaginas.

  34. 34
    Tilikum says:

    soon as rick typed “honorable” i lol’d

  35. 35
    Badger says:

    I’ve been out of the hardcore Manosphere so long I’d forgotten how much that kind of shaming language was a tell.

  36. 36
    Starlight says:

    Absolute gold! Learning heaps. :) I really enjoyed Yohami’s rewording of the original questions. I might be in the minority as a female, but i am quite frank and enjoy when others are tactfully direct, too.

  37. 37

    […] JFG commenter, practicallyperfect2, let us know she is working on a curriculum and program for young women and girls. As part of this, she wants to let these girls know what guys are really thinking, what guys wish girls knew.  […]

  38. 38

    I think this has been discussed on The Private Man’s blog, but it bears repeating: men generally seek excitement and challenges in their hobbies and, if possible, in their profession, but they seek tranquility, calm and no drama in their romantic lives. For women, it’s the complete opposite. I suppose that’s a tough pill to swallow for them.

  39. 39
    londonshaman says:

    Explain the role of male dominance in attraction and that women often cannot tell ‘good’ dominance (leadership, strong values) from ‘bad’ dominance (jerk, psychopath, narcissist).

    E.g. why women find dark triad men so attractive, even though they are bad news. Why nice guys get such a bad rap.

    If women are not aware they will make the keep making the same mistakes and not know why.

  40. 40

    Don’t take helpful criticism or advice as a personal attack that needs to be defended against.

    Many times it’s well meant advice and you turn it into an argument and drama that didn’t need to happen (n.b. we don’t like drama). From then on he has to bite his tongue when you’re doing it wrong or will likely drift into using some sarcasm to encourage you to learn the lesson after enduring the tear-fest (which gives him no joy whatsoever – we don’t like seeing our women cry – despite what your friends tell you).

    Men like to work out good, effective and efficient ways to do tasks that they’re interested in (not talking about close quarter combat dusting or tactical potpourri placement here). Men help each other out by providing tips and insight. Men like that, because at the end of the day they’re cleaning their rifle quicker / gutting the fish more efficiently / lighting the barbecue more reliably. It’s part of male team-building too – practical cooperation.

    So when they see you do something in a cack-handed way (come on ladies, it happens), they intend to help you by giving you tips – it’s not about you! It’s about helping you.

    For example.

    You’ve got his beer out of the fridge and left it on the side of the counter whilst you make him his sammiches. Your intent is to deliver him his beer and sammiches (for which he will love you long-time). When he says, “Sweetie, you could have bought me the beer to my lazy-boy first. So the beer was coldest on arrival. I’d have happily waited the extra couple of minutes for my sammiches while you scampered back to the kitchen to fix them”.

    He’s only saying that out of love and concern for you.

    Just sayin’

    (the first part of the comment is true, the example is meant to sweeten the lesson with mirth (and tumbleweeds))

  41. 41
    deti says:

    RE: Badger/”rick”

    “you decided it was ok to use her callously, i.e. use her body with no interest in her as a person, then discard her”

    No. SHE decided it was ok for HIM to use her callously. SHE decided it was ok for HIM to use her body with no interest in her as a person, then discard her.

    “Would you like a ‘man’ just like you to do this your daughter”

    That’s not the question. SHE decided she wanted Badger to do this to her. SHE chose it.

    No woman gets with a player, or gets played, unless she chooses it.

  42. 42
    deti says:

    Spot on, Yohami

  43. 43
    deti says:

    Actually I think women should do a little more learning about themselves first. I think women should really learn and understand Yohami’s posts upthread, because his comments set out the real reasons women want to know these things.

    Here are my observations about women for what they’re worth. These will come off as quite harsh, but I think the women that Practically Perfect 2 will need to learn these as best as they can.

    1. You view the male sex in terms of two wide subcategories: Males you find attractive (henceforth, “Men”) and males you do not find attractive (henceforth, “Males”). Males comprise around 85% of the males you see; Men are the remaining 15%.

    2. You are extremely good at separating out Men from Males. You are extremely good at figuring out which Males have confidence, dominance and power traits, and therefore are attractive and good with women.

    3. You are extremely good at selecting Men to have sex with.

    4. You suck at selecting Men who are good relationship fits. You’re terrible at it. You need lots of help with this; but the people who would be best at helping you with this (your father and brothers) are probably not in your life. Even if they are, those Men are the last people you will listen to about such things.

    5. You don’t really care about Males. They are completely and totally invisible to you. To you, most males are Males. You don’t find them attractive; you don’t acknowledge them as Men. They are simply human beings with male characteristics. Your thought processes with Males usually revolve around the following:

    a. is this Male a threat to me in some way? If so I need to get away from this Male as soon as possible.

    b. Does this Male want to have sex with me? If so I need to get away from this Male as soon as possible.

    c. Is this Male useful or beneficial to me in some way? If so I need to determine how I can use this Male for my benefit.

    d. If this Male is NOT useful or beneficial to me in some way, I need to get away from this Male as soon as possible.

    6. I’ve learned, finally learned, that those of you who are having lots of sex with hot Men know EXACTLY what you are doing. You are not doing this because you want to find a good man to marry. You are doing this because you want to have lots of yummy hot fun sex, and THEN find a good Man to marry when your egg timers start running down. Many of you have adopted precisely this strategy, even if you don’t consciously know you have.

    7. You are not really as emotionally “deep” and “in touch with your feelings” as mainstream media would lead you to believe. If you were, you’d be able to express it. Yet at the same time, some of you let your emotions rule you.

  44. 44
    deti says:

    Another thing that comes to mind:

    Women cannot bear to see a Man experiencing negative emotions such as extreme anger, rage, fear, despair, despondency or depression for extended periods of time. You say you want to “be there” for your Man; but you cannot do it. If it goes on long enough, it kills the attraction; it sets off your hypergamy alarms; and subconsciously causes you to start hunting for a replacement Man.

    A woman seeing a Male go through the above will seek to replace that Male immediately.

    Women cannot listen to Men talking about or working out their dating/mating/relationship issues or problems. Women reflexively view a Man discussing such issues as “whining” or “complaining” or “bitterness” or “sour grapes” or “well, you just chose poorly, so sucks to be you” or “suck it up, no one wants to hear you bitching about it”.

    As to both of the above principles; when a Male is involved, ratchet up by a factor of 5 the disdain and repulsion a woman experiences when seeing a Male do or experience the above.

  45. 45

    […] Wald clip dovetailed nicely with a discussion on a recent Just Four Guys thread entitled “MEN: What Do You Wish Women Knew About You?” Part of my commentary was to note that public competition is a […]

  46. 46

    Funny. First though when I read ‘Rick’s post was: is this even a man? The shaming language is actually embarrassing. Notice that the woman bears no responsibility? She chooses to sleep with Badger but he is the villain.

    Rick may be on to something: responsibility is a man’s domain. Solution: remove a woman’s free agency.

    Wait, we had that before feminism (before Women’s Suffrage) and many of the issues facing society today did not exist.

  47. 47
    practicallyperfect2 says:

    Well I asked for answers and I got them and they are very much appreciated.

    To answer one question, yes this is going to be taught and discussed in a church. Odd thing about the church, not always but many times it is a place for new ideas or movements spring from.

    Why do I think it is important to try to get girls to understand what men think? Simply put the time is right. We as a society are really good at telling the young how the parts work and how they are used and OD’d on how good it feels when we use it, but we are very lazy when it comes to talking about the details that are hidden in the reality of life particularly in relationships. For instance girls are never taught that men value respect over anything else, or that men need down time alone, that men have their worth tested everyday, men are visual and many more facts about men that have been lost because of feminism. I am hoping to bring back some of the wisdom of our grandmothers who I believe understood men much better then women today do but in a language that they will hear.
    I feel being able to pull quotes from this post and say to my sixteen yr. olds this is what this guy thinks when you dress like a slut. Will have more relevance then anything else I can say or quote.

    I haven’t finished reading the comments and hope this discussion continues. As Badger says I don’t want this to turn into a venting session I’m looking for wisdom gentlemen. Will it change things? For some it already has.
    Thank you.

  48. 48
    Elspeth says:

    A woman seeing a Male go through the above will seek to replace that Male immediately.

    Lie!

    That is all.

  49. 49
    practicallyperfect2 says:

    Just a quick example about my point about how much women do not understand men. Yesterday I was speaking with a married woman whose husband was in the room this is a second marriage for both. One thing I like to do is to get women talking when men are around about male female relationships just to see their reactions.
    We started off talking about students as both of them are teachers it soon led to a discussion about student behavior, I moved it on to how the school system discriminates against boys. The discussion soon turned to how men and women are different. I sprung on this early 40’s something female teacher that men don’t value women for their accomplishments. She immediately turned to her husband who hadn’t said a word the entire conversation and asked if that was so, he looked her square in the eye and said yes.
    The shock and surprise on her face was fun to watch. The conversation then turned to, “Well then why did you marry me?”
    Sadly this woman teaches and has raised a daughter and two sons as a single mother.

  50. 50
    practicallyperfect2 says:

    Yohami & Deti,

    “5. You don’t really care about Males. They are completely and totally invisible to you. To you, most males are Males. You don’t find them attractive; you don’t acknowledge them as Men. They are simply human beings with male characteristics.”

    The males the 85% that women ignore. Is this a general lack of respect by women, and if so what would be appropriate. How is Males any different then Females that men are not attracted to? Are you talking in terms of the Female imperative, I get the point if that’s what you are referring to.

  51. 51
    deti says:

    Elspeth #47:

    You did not read carefully enough. There’s a difference between the way a woman in a relationship with a Man treats him; and the way a woman in a relationship with a Male treats him.

    In a woman’s eyes, a Male is not the same as a Man.

  52. 52
    deti says:

    PP2, #48:

    An example of projection, and gender equity feminism. Projection, because a man’s achievements and being accomplished are part of his Status and a big part of his attractiveness. Since she finds that attractive in men; she presumes men find that attractive in women.

    Gender equity feminism; because of the deeply ingrained and pervasive indoctrination that all men and women receive, telling us that men and women are exactly alike and equal and equivalent except for reproductive tracts.

  53. 53
    YOHAMI says:

    PP2, here’s again my stuff edited (Han can you delete my post no. 52?) [Han: Done]

    “The males the 85% that women ignore.”

    I’d say is more about 60%, then you have 20% of attractive men and 20% of scary ones. Give or take.

    “Is this a general lack of respect by women”

    I’d say is a lack of recognition that these are men, or that they even exist, and are viewed with scorn if viewed at all.

    But this only if we understand “men” as “human beings”, which is not how women view men at all, as far as I know.

    Women see men as tools to get something. You know the expression “real man”. A “real man” possesses N attributes that women want. And “real men” are not abundant. All the rest, they look like men, but what are they?

    The losers of the “real man” filter also lose their humanity.

    Or, there was no humanity to begin with. All that matters when evaluating a man is the function he can perform. No function = no value.

    Its rotten no matter what angle you look at it.

    “and if so what would be appropriate.””

    Compassion and empathy.

    Some will tell you that these invisible men are also men.

    The problem with that is, if we understand men as function and the function to be desirable, then saying that these men are also function would make them desirable?

    Im not going to tell you girls what you should desire.

    Im not going to tell you that you should go breed with the 60% of men you decided dont make the cut. But I might ask you do know what you’re doing and to make informed decisions.

    For the ones who dont make the cut, I’ll just add compassion. You know all the big deal women make about fat women? you know how it feels, right? well, all these invisible men have it worse than fat women. Show respect.

    They are human beings.

    “How is Males any different then Females that men are not attracted to?”

    The difference is in numbers. My guess is that only 5% of women are invisible.

    Did you see what happen? your own estimation of invisible women is higher. The reason is that they are invisible to “men” and again you only count attractive men as men. The real man thing in work.

    The top men dont see most women, true. But the top men isnt “men” as a whole.

    Most of these girls who feel invisible – because the top men (real men) dont pay them attention to them – have their own sequitus of invisible men wanting to do everything for them.

    The invisible men have zero. No one. Nada. If they want sex they have to go with prostitutes. I dont think more than 5% of the female population is on the same spot.

    “Are you talking in terms of the Female imperative, I get the point if that’s what you are referring to.”

    I dont like the “Female Imperative” term, even if I see the principles in action. To me its formulation is pretty much the same to what feminism has been doing: figure a way to portrait the instincts of the other gender as victimary and portrait your own gender as victimized.

    Yeah, women want to catch the big male. Coincidentally men want to become that big male themselves. Now you can look at the other side and its effects and be convinced it was totally the other side’s idea. Until you look at yourself.

  54. 54
    deti says:

    @ PP2 #49:

    “The males the 85% that women ignore. Is this a general lack of respect by women, and if so what would be appropriate.

    First, let’s frame it thus: For any particular woman, roughly 85% (girv or take 10 points up or down) are not attractive to that woman. Along the lines of my first substantive comment, all women divide males into 15% Men (‘yeah, I might have sex with him”) and 85% Males (“I would never ever ever in a billion years have sex with him”). She will not under any circumstances consider Males for any sort of romantic or sexual relationship.

    General lack of respect is part of it. A large part of this is simply that those 85% (roughly) just are not attractive to her, and so they are simply nonentities, sexual blanks, neuter. To her they are neither male nor female; they are simply human beings. She doesn’t respect these men because she does not have to. She uses these men to serve her interests (garbagemen, auto mechanics, store clerks, pastors, “friends”, beta orbiters, etc.) These men have no meaning or importance to her beyond their immediate utility to her for the service they provide to her. Nearly all beta orbiters you hear so much about are Males. No self-respecting Man puts up with beta orbiterdom for any length of time. The minute a Man concludes a woman has sent him into beta orbit, he’s gone.

    As for what would be appropriate, I am not sure what you mean. This isn’t going to change. A typical woman will never find a majority or even a significant minority of men attractive. A woman simply treating all human beings with basic respect will go a long way towards improving intergender relations.

    “How is Males any different [than] Females that men are not attracted to?”

    There are many, many more Males than there are Females. A male sees the world as around 70% Women (“yes I’d have sex with her”) and around 30% Females (“no I would not have sex with her”). So simply by existing and being born with ovaries and a vagina, a female has a much, much better chance of finding a mate than a male does. Simply because she is a female, there is a much better than even chance she will find some male, somewhere willing to have sex with her and marry her.

    The second difference is that it is much easier for females to meet their relationship needs. If she wants sex, she can get it. If she wants a long term relationship or a husband, chances are she will find some man willing to give that to her. Might not be the tbe best man or the highest value man. But she can get one. Contra males. Many males (and Males) get nothing. No sex, no girlfriends, no relationships, no wives, no nothing.

    For these reasons, a Female has a much better chance of improving herself and becoming a Woman than a Male does of improving himself and becoming a Man == at least in the current sexual and marriage marketplaces.

  55. 55
    deti says:

    PP2:

    Yohami has it exactly right. For Males, compassion and empathy would be good. These men are human beings, they are horny and they’re lonely.

    If you want your women to know what life is like for a Male, have them read this (crass language alert):

    http://whoism3.wordpress.com/2012/11/17/confessions-of-a-reformed-incel/

    this is the rawest, most powerful description I have ever read of what it’s like to live with no female affection.

    The pain is positively excruciating.

    Here’s a sample from M3’s post:

    •no one will ever love me
    •even the ones who ‘like’ you don’t want you
    •what chance do you have with those who don’t know you
    •no woman wants anything to do with me sexually
    •there must be something horribly wrong with me
    •i must be a hideous grotesque abomination
    •i will never feel the warmth of a woman’s skin
    •no woman will ever yearn or desire me
    •i would never look into a woman’s eyes as she drew me into her
    •i would never caress a woman’s face
    •never again would i know what a passionate kiss felt like
    •never again would i be validated as a sexual human being
    •i don’t deserve love
    •i don’t deserve to go on, i don’t deserve to live
    •life will go on without me
    •no one will really miss me maybe
    •even if they do, no one cared enough when it mattered
    •how long would i need to run the car in the garage before i pass out
    •turn the key you coward
    •mom will find my body in the garage
    •she will understand, she knows you’ve been suffering
    •i might chicken out, i can’t do it this way
    •where can i get a gun
    •i can’t get one. but a pellet gun looks real..
    •maybe i can stage a bank heist, take hostages, wait for the cops and force them to do it
    •death by cop
    •i hope it doesn’t hurt too much when i die

  56. 56

    Women cannot listen to Men talking about or working out their dating/mating/relationship issues or problems. Women reflexively view a Man discussing such issues as “whining” or “complaining” or “bitterness” or “sour grapes” or “well, you just chose poorly, so sucks to be you” or “suck it up, no one wants to hear you bitching about it”.

    This is true. I think it provokes an anxiety response in us. And really, women probably don’t need to hear those conversations anyway; the problem is that we have invaded vitually every space that was previously all-male, so men don’t get many opportunities to have those discussions without an anxious female present.

  57. 57
    Han Solo says:

    Edit by Han: I have removed this comment and will let Bastiat deal with it on his own, since that is what he would prefer.

  58. 58
    Jimmy says:

    Bro fist bump for Bastiat.

  59. 59
    deti says:

    PP2:

    I wanted to amplify something that Badger said upthread. The past two generations have completely and totally immersed this entire culture in feminism. This has left men deeply, deeply confused about how to act in society, their place in society, and how to pursue and express interest in women. Christianity in the US, in particular mainstreat churches, dismisses, denigrates and pathologizes men’s very normal sexual urges, wants, needs and desires.

    A few other things:

    –what gets a man interested in a woman at the outset is her physical appearance. That won’t be enough, however, to keep him for a long term relationship or marriage. She has to bring more to the table. Domestic skills are crucial. A kind, pleasant and cheerful demeanor goes a long, long way toward securing a relationship.

    –men do not exist solely to serve as dates, boyfriends and husbands. Men have wants, needs and desires for and from their relationships and lives too. Women would do well to take into account what their men want, need and desire.

    –human nature doesn’t change simply because we’re talking about Christian men and women. Christian men want sex just as much as nonChristian men. Christian women are just as hypergamous (if not more so than) as secular women.

    –A woman wanting a man will need to be overt about it. She will need to throw out unmistakable IOIs.

    –Women need to understand the different ways men communicate. Most of the time they are more direct and blunt. Men who are players or cads will be direct and blunt. Most men will be more circumspect.

    –In general, ladies, if a man is talking to you or interacting with you in any way, he wants to either (1) have sex with you; or (2) have sex with one or more of your friends.

  60. 60
    YOHAMI says:

    Deti,

    “Christian women are just as hypergamous (if not more so than)””

    How, and why?

  61. 61
    practicallyperfect2 says:

    Deti and Yohami, thank you for the responses, sorry for the delay I had to step away and will have to again soon.

    Yohami,
    Compassion and empathy. “Or, there was no humanity to begin with. All that matters when evaluating a man is the function he can perform. No function = no value.”

    I don’t think this is gender specific, there has been times when I have felt this way. From my observation, our culture fosters the notion that one should have little compassion or empathy for anyone who can’t do something for you. This endemic of a spoiled generations who feel entitled to the best regardless whether they have earned it or not.

  62. 62

    Re: the O/T. I think I’d want women to know that men distinguish between “validation” sex and “transactional” sex and that validation sex feels much better in terms of fueling the male self-concept.

    Simply put, in a validation sex experience the man is being chosen for his Sperm Donor traits; he feels that he is a stud or winner or alpha or whatever. In a transactional sex experience, the man feels that he has traded resources (and/or commitments to provide said resources in the future) for the sex. The transactional experience does not fill up the same psychic fuel tank that the validation sex does; in a perfect world, a man would derive continuous validation sex from his LTR or marriage and it would never turn transactional. Guys can actually get to the point where they would rather not have sex with their partners or fap to porn if the sex has turned completely transactional. This can also be where men are very vulnerable to another woman who appears to pay attention to them, compliment them, etc.

    From the female POV, a transactional event may satisfy *both* of her needs: she feels attractive and desired (validated) and she has gained something materially from the exchange as well (transactional benefits). But she needs to realize that the man getting off does not necessarily leave him feeling validated, which I think may be part of the reason that guys who are willing to play the committed Provisioner-Provider role tend to also be really concerned about female sexual history and the rising age of marriage and so on.

    What the guy does not want is for other men to have the carefree, fun relationships with his potential mate and for him to quickly get the “serious” part of being a parent because of her timeline and sense of urgency; I think that a lot of guys feel that this is psychologically *somewhat* similar to being cuckolded.

    For men, I think that an appeal of hook-up culture and casual sex and so on can be this feeling that you didn’t have to symbolically or literally “pay” for the sex, that it is almost 100% pure validation. It can be difficult to explain and I’m probably not doing a great job of articulating it.

  63. 63
    YOHAMI says:

    PP2,

    “I don’t think this is gender specific”

    I agree to an extent.

  64. 64
  65. 65
    Bells says:

    ADBG,

    …Beta, about to be married guy, who considers himself Red-Pill

    Sorry to interject,
    but Congratulations ADBG on your engagement!! This is an awesome news to hear

    -Bells

  66. 66
    deti says:

    @ Yohami #59:

    With Christian women, ultrahypergamy is not just biological, but also attitudinal. This is something that exists in United States/North American Christianity/churchianity, and you might not be familiar with this in Latin America.

    Christian girls are told from their earliest days that they are the most special of special snowflakes. They are Daughters of the King; God’s Special Princesses. This creates an entitlement mentality that puts secular girls to shame. Each girl is specifically told that God is preparing One Special Man just for her. Since God will provide this man, he will be absolutely perfect in every way. This causes girls to NEXT any man who does not do and is not everything she wants – so even if he meets 462 of her 463 bullet points, he is NEXTed, because he is not “Perfect”.

    There isn’t a man alive who could possibly measure up to what many Christian girls want and expect from their future husbands.

  67. 67
    Han Solo says:

    Hey Bells…and Morpheus just got married on Saturday. Now we just need to get Nemesis moving! ;) haha

    ADBG, do you have a rough or exact date yet you want to share?

  68. 68
    Jen says:

    SSM –

    “the problem is that we have invaded vitually every space that was previously all-male, so men don’t get many opportunities to have those discussions without an anxious female present”

    The reverse is also true: male nurses, male elementary school teachers, male prom queens, male beauty pageant contestants, male Girl Scouts, males who have decided they are really females using the Girls’ bathrooms….

  69. 69
    Han Solo says:

    @deti 65

    And if he’s ever looked at porn or jerked off then he’s an evil, vile creature that has no self control and deserves to be avoided or divorced. The porn scaring at churches often creates more problems than it solves.

  70. 70
    YOHAMI says:

    Deti, just wow.

    Are christian men also promised a perfect woman?

  71. 71
    Han Solo says:

    Bells, are you the same Bells that I spoke with at HUS maybe 6 or 8 months ago? If so, and if you care to share, do you still have the same bf you mentioned? I felt like your field report was pretty realistic about what young women and men that want to get into a relationship face.

  72. 72
    deti says:

    Jen 67:

    Not the same at all. When men take traditionally female jobs or roles, they don’t demand that the workplace be changed to suit them. They also don’t demand that the dialogue or gossip include them. And when men go to female run sites like Pandagon, Jezebel or HUS, they are told to conform to the female host’s rules and etiquette, or are banned or sternly corrected.

    The other things you’re talking about, male prom queens, men using female bathrooms, transgendering, etc. are aberrations and the result of a very, very few extremely effeminate “men”.

  73. 73
    deti says:

    Yohami:

    Men are not promised “perfect” girls or “perfect” wives.

    From their earliest days, young Christian boys are told that they have to be “nice”. They are told that their normal sexual urges and desires are violent, predatory, evil, base, deviant, and criminal. The crystal clear message Christian boys are given is that their sole reason for existence is to grow up, man up, be a boyfriend to a nice Christian girl, marry her, and be a father to her (not your, HER) kids and support HER. You must grow up and get a job making lots of money so you can take care of your wife and children.

    Sex is for procreation only, and for her pleasure. If he isn’t having a lot of sex with her and she’s not orgasming; then he obviously doesn’t care about her needs. If he wants to have sex with her a lot, then he’s an unchristian brute who’s “Into his flesh” who just wants to use her and doesn’t care about her needs.

    Any problems in a male-female relationship are the result of the man’s misconduct. If she cheated, it is because the man drove her to it. Her cheating happened because he didn’t love her enough or talk to her enough or care for her needs enough. If he cheated, then he is a boorish brute who deserves to be cast into the Ninth Circle of Hell. If there are marital problems, it is because he is not communicating.

    If he is gone too much because he is working to take care of the family, then he is not helping her enough and is obviously a workaholic who doesn’t give a shit about his wife and kids. If he is at home too much and doesn’t earn a lot of money, then he is obviously a lazy layabout who needs to be working harder and making more money.

    If he has no friends outside of work and home; then he is too dependent on his wife for spiritual and social interaction. If he has lots of friends outside of work and home, then he is not paying enough attention to what is going on at home.

    If he is spiritual and loves God, then he’s a wimp. If he doesn’t like church too much and doesn’t go very much; then he’s a heathen brute.

    If he looked at porn, then this is “adultery in his heart” and therefore she has grounds for divorce.

    If he is a young single man who isn’t too interested in marriage, then he’s a “peter pan” who is immature and selfish. He needs to “man up” and get married. He needs to get a job and start supporting a woman.

  74. 74
    YOHAMI says:

    Deti, big fucking lol. That is even worse than feminism.

  75. 75
    Bells says:

    Han Solo,

    I don’t think I know Morpheus (was he a HUS commenter?) but Congrats to him as well!
    Yup, I’m the same Bells that you initially talked to. Just passing by through the manosphere, it’s been a long time since I went on these websites.
    And no, I’m no longer with the same boyfriend. The relationship lasted for about 4months but it was definitely a great learning experience.

    By the way, I’m liking the new website :)

  76. 76
    Han Solo says:

    Bells, thanks and welcome. Feel free to stick around. We’re more blunt here than we were at HUS but most of the regular commenters and posters here will give you the straight deal on what men really think–a valuable thing for women if they want to better understand what’s going on in the real world, stuff that men won’t often mention in public because of the need to project masculine strength and not rock the boat and worry about upsetting the PC norms that are often there.

    Glad the relationship was good while it lasted and hopefully the next one will be even better.

    Morpheus was a once-beloved commenter at HUS but used a different name there.

  77. 77
    Starlight says:

    Indeed, pure gold! So much to learn from you guys. :)

  78. 78
    Han Solo says:

    Thanks, Starlight. I know Swithunus would echo my thoughts, if it weren’t past his bedtime. haha :)

  79. 79
    A Definite Beta Guy says:

    Thanks, Bells! I am quite excited to start the next chapter of life. It probably helps that she comes from a family where only one person has divorced in the last several generations and she is utterly terrified of the concept :P

    Han,
    Date is going to be July 12 next year. Lots to do….or….something. She just had her first bridal dress thingy last weekend. Apparently everyone was happy with the choice. They also have yellow bridesmaid’s dresses picked out, sort of a calling card to me telling girls just to put on a yellow sundress and go to a book store to find guys :p

  80. 80
    Sir Nemesis says:

    @ Bells

    Glad to see you here!

    And no, I’m no longer with the same boyfriend. The relationship lasted for about 4months but it was definitely a great learning experience.

    Aww too bad. Seemed to be going well.

  81. 81
    Sir Nemesis says:

    I’m INTJ btw.

  82. 82
    Jen says:

    Deti,

    “The other things you’re talking about, male prom queens, men using female bathrooms, transgendering, etc. are aberrations and the result of a very, very few extremely effeminate “men”.”

    The same is true for females in combat, females as fire fighters, etc. Only a very few women, who are under the delusion that they can physically compete with men, are interested in joining these traditionally male enclaves. And, similar to what I said over at Dalrock, I believe that the male elites are using this issue to humiliate the men in traditionally male establishments. A few feminists would not be able to achieve the whole women in combat “victory” without elite males supporting them.

    I do agree that, in certain male-dominated professions, it is a bit different than, say, males entering the Nursing profession. I just want to point out that males are entering previously female-dominated arenas, also. (How would you feel if you were a female running for Prom Queen, and you got beaten by a guy?)

  83. 83

    (How would you feel if you were a female running for Prom Queen, and you got beaten by a guy?)

    A woman shouldn’t feel bad at all. It only means the judges are homosexuals (take a look at the ‘women’ – girls actually – that are models. They are ‘boyish': lanky, flat chested, no curves, flat bums, longer faces, more prominent jaws, noses and cheekbones…similar to what a tall, thin 14 year old boy looks like – it should be noted that while typical 14 year old boys are not tall, in order to have similar body proportions – such as longer arms, a female model has to be tall. Any guesses who is most influential in deciding which girls should be models)?

    No male, no matter how effeminate, no matter if a post-op transsexual, would be able to beat out even a half-decent woman if the judges were heterosexual males. Take a look at some beauty pageants in the West, esp. the U.S. See if and/or how influential fashion models are on the ideal ‘look’ of a beauty pageant. See if any of the male judges are homosexual (or at least effeminate).

  84. 84

    Ha Han,
    Nearly your bedtime now, though I’m considering going back to sleep, it’s a bit early yet.

  85. 85
    Starlight says:

    @ Han Solo, Swithers

    You both made me chuckle!! Keep it up as laughing is good. :)

    @ Deti and anyone debating Christian Female / Male values

    I strongly encourage you to read the below. I really feel the need to clarify a few things here as it seems plenty have been surrounded by ultra conservative Christians.

    First order of duty: Please, dismiss most ultra conservatives ever told you – best to disassociate yourselves from fanatics.

    Okay, now with a fresh mind – what does the Bible actually say about sex, procreation and giving into the flesh?

    SEX

    a) Having sex within marriage is highly encouraged. It is actually a must to have regular sex just for fun and not purely procreation.
    b) In fact, it is sinful not to please / satisfy BOTH partners sexually.
    d) In fact, Paul wrote in one of the Gospels that people should marry if they want constant sex.

    Please, have heaps of sex!

    Side note: I am still trying to understand the Christian reasoning behind the whole “no sex before marriage’. It is taking me some time.

    PROCREATION

    Procreation is important. Why? You want to pass your bloodline along. Put it this way: If you are a single son who doesn’t have kids, then your family name & heritage will terminate with you. Basically, the more Christians are born, the bigger the community gets.

    THINKING WITH THE FLESH RATHER THAN THE SPIRIT

    Christians in general believe that God has a calling for each and everyone. Thus, say you are meant to work in a farm and produce the best grapes possible. The idea is that nothing should detract you from that objective.

    Now, imagine it’s harvest day today and you have to harvest all grapes today as otherwise you’ll have lost the good produce.

    Oh no, you couldn’t sleep last night due to a big fight with your girlfriend. It’s a terrible morning. You cannot be bothered and opt to do nothing for the rest of the day.

    Behold – you just followed your immediate emotional desires instead of obliging / doing your duty.

    Morale of the example: If any of your immediate desires / emotions stops you from your calling – that is giving into your flesh. A mature person should be able to control any urges and fulfil his duty at all times.

    I am not here to preach or whatever – just setting the record straight. Alas why I haven’t quoted scripture, but I can if requested.

  86. 86

    @Starlight

    “made me chuckle”

    hmmm…gets out calculator..tap..tap…taptaptap…tap.tap…hmmm

    so that’s one then?

    I keep asking the fourguys to add the uppy/downy votey arrows, but they are very convinced that I wouldn’t want that to happen…I’m beginning to think that they’re sending a message.

  87. 87
    YOHAMI says:

    Starlight, that sound better.

  88. 88
    practicallyperfect2 says:

    Deti
    #65 “Christian girls are told from their earliest days that they are the most special of special snowflakes. They are Daughters of the King; God’s Special Princesses. This creates an entitlement mentality that puts secular girls to shame. Each girl is specifically told that God is preparing One Special Man just for her. Since God will provide this man, he will be absolutely perfect in every way. This causes girls to NEXT any man who does not do and is not everything she wants – so even if he meets 462 of her 463 bullet points, he is NEXTed, because he is not “Perfect”.”

    This is what we are seeking to change most. Christianity lost its way when they try to accommodate. There is no understanding of accountability, responsibility and sacrifice when your brought up to be a princess, these three principles are key to being a Christian.
    I knew about and read M3’s post when he first posted it.

    Starlight,
    To many Christians are either to self-righteous, simple or to emotionally lazy to figure out how to talk about sex and inter-gender relations with clarity, that needs to stop.

    Yohami #63
    Got it. No mention of the men who were killed and no compassion displayed.

  89. 89
    practicallyperfect2 says:

    To Morpheus and his bride,
    I pray blessings for you both. It is truly a journey full of twist and turns and bumps and wild frantic but exquisite moments. Just remember to keep your sense of humor.

    A Definite Beta Guy,
    Hopes and blessings on your engagement.

  90. 90

    Couple of items:
    Most of us haven’t been around long enough to actually have observed what effects femninism has had on the relationship world. To the extent that’s affected by, say, VAWA, or changing family court procedures, there are changes due to feminism. But directly to personalities…few of us know enough people long enough, and generation to generation, to be even close to being certain of our conclusions.
    Meeting loudly-feminist women is an exception.

    As to dress, guys, to the extent they think about it, which is a lot, know that when a woman stands in front of a closet, she’s making a choice. She’s not reaching in blindly, going to wear whatever she grabs first. And those choices are going to affect the amount of skin shown, the figure shown through tight–or loose–garments of thin–or heavy–fabric. And if we see skin and figure, we conclude that’s her deliberate choice. Now, let’s presume an attractive woman chooses the more-skin, tight-garment route and, during the day, as far as she knows, nobody notices. Feminists would probably say that’s the preferred outcome–probably don’t believe it. Guys don’t believe it. So if you’re seen as advertising–and you are seen as advertising–expect guys to react as expected. Don’t play all innocent and unaware.

    As to friends: Prior to LTR or marriage, there are likely opportunities for what might be called “congenial colleagues” in which the guy sees the woman as a woman, they probably brighten each other’s day at work or in class or wherever, but they never go out, call after work, nothing like that. This is not the LJBF thing,but can lead to missed communications; either one presumes the other is more interested than is really the case, or one does not know the other is interested. While fun, these relationships can be tricky, unless circumstances allow for a further relationship. Even if a relationship does not result–and there are plenty of reasons why one or another may not–the possibility functions like a safety valve.

    Many articles and discussions on men’s emotional state presume implicitly that men and women have the same emotional characteristics and men are deficient in expressing them. IOW, if a man isn’t emoting like a woman, he’s defective. Not true. Men’s emotions are different from women’s, and not merely because, as feminists and various libs would say, they’re repressed by the patriarchy. Some of it is even hard-wired. Men don’t think like women, and to the extent they may on a given subject, they don’t express their thinking the same way.
    There’s no logical reason not to turn the question around. As noted relationship observer Henry Higgins once asked, “Why can’t a woman be more like a man?” Don’t want to go there? Then don’t try the reverse. Nothing good happens there.

    Example: I have a female relation who, upon noticing road kill, will emote for at least two more miles. I don’t know if she actually feels it or thinks that’s what she should be pretending. I don’t care.
    Youtube has a wonderful video of the Robert Shaw Chorale singing Shenandoah, accompanied with wonderful landscape shots. Great. I’ll be there in a couple of weeks. But the vids I go back to most often have to do with paratroopers. I got through jump school and get a kick out of such things. Picture of the inside of a C17 full of paratroopers, the pic labled “Can of Whoop-Ass” I laugh every time I see it. What do you think my wife, daughter, DIL, niece, daughter, or any female guest who sees it thinks? Right.
    Other guys it could be an Indy car heading into a turn, a perfect spiral pass for forty yards, a room the size of a gymnasium full of top-dollar wood-working machinery. In The Bridges at Toko-Ri, Michener’s fictional admiral has seen many fine and stirring things in his life; his wife at the altar, his sons in uniform, Japanese ships sinking, but nothing stirred him like The Beer Barrel (you have to be there) bringing the jets home at dusk.
    Whether it’s carrier operations or a wood-worker’s dream, if you don’t understand it, it’s not HIS fault. Don’t reproach it, condemn it, try to fix it, get him to think some other way or about something else.
    If he tells you your roses look great and they’re mums, the thing is he thinks they look great and took the trouble to tell you because he knows you like them and work hard at it. It’s just a freaking flower evolved to attract insects. What’s the BFD, anyway? Long as it’s not poison ivy.

  91. 91
    Empathy | says:

    […] Deti, from a recent Just Four Guys comment thread: […]

  92. 92
    Morpheus says:

    PP @ 88

    Thank you. BTW, we laugh a lot. It’s funny…I can be a deadly serious person, but I have a goofy, whimsical side she sees a lot of.

  93. 93
    Starlight says:

    @ Swithers

    “add the uppy/downey votey arrows”? I am lost, lol. You mean being able to like/dislike people’s answers?

    Tap tap tap.. You get a golden star for your stellar efforts!

    @ Yohami

    Glad that it does. :)

    @ practicallyperfect2
    “There is no understanding of accountability, responsibility and sacrifice”

    I completely agree. Being Christian is a lifestyle. You don’t get to do garbage and pretend it’s all good because you are a Christian. Youngsters, adults, etc need to learn how to make well informed choices. That last sentence applies to non Christians as well.

    Let’s apply this to what we talk about at JFG.

    Girls & Responsibility
    If you have an ONS when drunk with a guy you just met you make sure to use protection and not just rely on the guy for a condom.

    This also means that you are aware of the risks of HIV etc, the possibility of your protection methods not working, and the likelihood that the guy is not going to call you again unless it’s for another sexual encounter.

    Thus, if things go sour – you are accountable for your actions. You knew what you were getting into – no excuses.

    Guys & Responsibility

    If you are in a LTR or any relationship of sorts you ensure the girl uses protection at all times. But in case she is the lying kind – you always use a condom. Some girls trick guys purposefully – the “I got accidentally pregnant BS.”

    “To many Christians are either to self-righteous, simple or to emotionally lazy to figure out how to talk about sex and inter-gender relations with clarity, that needs to stop.”

    I think there is too much garbage out there – too much misinformation. Heaps of people in general are way too lazy to do some research alas why it’s easier for them to believe whatever brainwashed nonsense they are taught or presented with.

    Us few, keen to set the record straight, need to inform / educate others. Alas why I applaud you for asking fellow JFG male posters to share some valuable insight which you then pass on to these girls. Hopefully these young ladies will take all of this indispensable information on board in order to be able to make informed choices / decisions in the future.

  94. 94

    @Starlight

    “add the uppy/downey votey arrows”? I am lost, lol. You mean being able to like/dislike people’s answers?

    yep, prexactly.

    I want them as they will reveal the true nature of my fan base. Ironically that’s exactly the reason that my brothers tell me that they’re not giving me them, in my own interests…barstads (as we English pronounce it, you lot too iirc)

  95. 95
    Aaron the Just says:

    @practicallyperfect2

    WILL A GUY RESPECT YOUR PERSONAL BOUNDARIES AND WHAT TO DO IF HE DOESN’T?

    All teenagers (male or female) need to be taught that people with personality disorders exist, and how to identify them. Antisocial personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder are the most dangerous, since they cannot empathise with other’s feelings.

    I recommend the book “The Sociopath Next Door”.

    This has absolutely nothing to do with male/female and everything to do with the fact 4% or so of the population lacks empathy and has no respect for anyone’s personal boundaries–their brain is physiologically incapable of doing so.

    This will be relevant to your female audience when you explain that these Dark Triads will be the most attractive to them, and it will be difficult for them to identify Dark Triads vs. actually good, yet strong and dominant men.

    WHAT DO GUYS THINK ABOUT SEX?

    100% of young men regularly view and use pornography. Please get this across to your class.

    If this bothers young women, they need to consider being celibate.

  96. 96
    Starlight says:

    @ Swithers

    I see. Well, I must say, it seems you are quite the miracle maker. No wonder you are very popular!

    St. Swithin’s day if thou dost rain
    For forty days it will remain
    St. Swithin’s day if thou be fair
    For forty days ’twill rain nae mair.

  97. 97

    @Starlight

    Well I damn well told them to bury me outside with the plebz, so when they dug me back up and took me into the cathedral, well I took revenge; ‘piss on ‘em’, I thought. If I’d been alive when they reburied me where I told em not to, I might have ranted at them instead (which might explain the Latin name for Winchester; Venta Belgarum loosely translates to ‘where they buried the Saint that vents belligerently’ (probably), or capital of the Belgares, (for those tedious truth seekers out there)).

    The met office has occasionally opined that there’s a partial truth in the rhyme; in that the weather in mid July is fairly representative of what the rest of the Summer* holds. Other euro-countries have similar myths about similar dates (I’ve casually found out).

    here endeth the bullshit lesson for today until next time..

    *I use this term ironically, we’re talking Britain here.

  98. 98

    @Starlight

    My email sig. Clearly ‘Pig man’ (c.f. Male Chauvinist Pig) was a major draw to the name.


    The precise meaning and origin of Swithun’s name is unknown, but it is largely considered to mean ‘Pig Man’. Another possible meaning is “strong”.

    Swithun’s best known miracle was his restoration on a bridge of a basket of eggs that workwomen had maliciously broken.

  99. 99
    joe says:

    “What guys think is important, their perspective on life.”
    Respect is a good answer. In the course of the day, little respect comes without a reason or a cost. Those who do give a bit of respect free of charge are known as “friends.”

    Guy talk: how they speak differently than girls.
    With the possible exception of a business transaction, there is very little in the way of a hidden agenda in a mans words.

    [In spite of what radfems say,] not all guys are evil.
    Not that we don’t have evil thoughts at times. Men are surprisingly human that way.

    Will a guy respect your personal boundaries and what to do if he doesn’t?
    Generally, yes. There are psychopaths, of course, but most automatically take “no” for an answer until the woman tells him otherwise. Men know that “otherwise” often is given non-verbally.

    Men are visual; what you wear is not just a fashion statement; it is a signal to a man of what kind of attention you’re looking for.
    Count on it.

    What is important for a guy in a relationship?
    The ability to be a companion. That requires intelligence, humor, displays of interestedness (I just made up that word, but it fits!) and loyalty in public, and passion in private.

    What do guys think about being just friends?
    Difficult, nie unto impossible. If the guy is interested in a woman, he’s interested in the sexual part too.

    What do guys think about sex?
    The androsphere tends to define winners and losers by that yardstick. That’s a bit shortsighted, but understandable to men younger than, say, 45. I am not, so I tend to think sex is somewhat overrated compared to companionship and loyalty in the long run.

  100. 100
    Candide says:

    You guys are totally ruining The Masculine Mystique.

  101. 101
    Starlight says:

    @ Swithers

    Well, it was a great lesson, Swithers! ‘Strong’ is a better meaning than ‘Pig Man’ – suits you better, too.

  102. 102
    Starlight says:

    P.S. You can have some of our summer here any time. It’s over 30 degrees. Loving it though… nothing like a sunny day!

  103. 103
    BuenaVista says:

    If I were to contribute any knowledge of lifelong value to a young woman, it is that their misconceptions about sex will ruin their LTRs.

    Generalizing, no matter that we inhabit a celebrated slut culture in most respects, I would say that most women come of age believing:

    a. providing “access” to sex is the sum of a woman’s sexual value to a man (i.e., letting a guy “have some” is a woman’s greatest gift to a man). This is BB’s “transactional sex” model as a permanent condition. This guarantees eventual alienation and sexual torpor. It guarantees male sexual restlessness, the desire for strange, his consumption of porn, or simply the eradication of a sensual life from the LTR.

    b. men enjoy sex no matter the woman’s intelligence about male sexuality (i.e., there’s little value in being a skilled lover because only women need a skilled lover, for men get off irrespective of their woman’s appetite, enthusiasm or skill set).

    As the token mature man here I remain astonished at the relative disinterest or lack of awareness amongst American women that as they mature, they need to compensate through their development of the feminine sexual arts. I’m not going to be vulgar today and provide examples, but my god, the idea that most women can’t even effect (and they can’t) a decent variety of handjobs, let alone the more subtle exercises and strategies that make a man’s world go ’round, describes a complacency and solipsism that is hostile to most womens’ desire for a sexually active, monogamous lifestyle. I mean, there are books on this subject that spell it all out. I’m tired of buying those books for naive women who in all other areas of their lives are over-achievers.

    All women need to contemplate what is meant by being a ‘bad girl with pearls’ ((c) BV). As an adherent to Roissy’s Commandment #14, I have found myself being complimented in immensely gratifying ways — until I ask, Gee, do you suppose that might be a two-way street? The latter induces panic among the loving, confusion among the dense, and resentment amongst sex-positive feminists. The cohort I date, or have dated, in the main are 30-50, once divorced, and SMV/MMV 7-9. You’d think they’d take a few cues from their French or Russian cousins. But NO. There’s a voice in my head that says I’m too old to be an instructor for anyone over the age of 25, and another voice that is saying, Watch Out! if I ever meet a woman who knows anything about male sexuality. Because that sound I’ll be hearing is the distant waterfall of doom, a sudden urge to dive back into a legal marriage.

  104. 104

    Going along with BV’s comments and veering into academic feminist spaces, I have observed that there is a real conflict w/in feminist ranks over the concept of “transactional sex” (i.e., loosely defined for our purposes here as sex exchanged for non-sexual goods and services). Men are frequently used as foils, but the real depth of the conflict is between SAHMs and PowerFems who tend to be alpha career women.

    This is reductionist, but the basic argument is whether or not young women—particularly those with higher education—should be encouraged to become SAHMs. The PowerFems say that the answer to this is unequivocally HELL, NO, and that much social injustice has been created by the Patriarchy having access to traditional norms about a male head-of-household breadwinner who economically oppresses his wife under the paternalistic guise of “provisioning”. An educated young woman who leaves the workforce to emphasize family is telling companies that they should not invest heavily in training and promoting females because women just aren’t serious about staying in for the long haul, and this is not acceptable.

    Keep in mind that feminism does not allow much room for individual freedom of choice if said freedoms are believed to negatively impact the positions of other women, and in the hierarchy of priorities the desires of the female CEO trump those of the housewife. Women are not allowed to retire early.

    Simply stated, a low price for sex/many casual sex options will dis-incentivize men, taken as a group and considering how prices are set at the margin, from engaging in long-term transactional sex arrangements. This has many effects, but one of them is to direct female interests towards careers vs. domesticity. This will in turn force women to emphasize education and then, more importantly, their careers, and it is well-established that such women will tend to be in favor of other aspects of the clustered feminist policy mandate.

    This extends further to the notion of marriage itself. The PowerFems are at best ambivalent about traditional marriage; some are openly hostile to it. On the other hand, women who want to have the SAHM option normally need the framework of legal remedy through a (biased) family court system in order to secure this option; it is far riskier for a woman to leave the workforce and emphasize domestic activities if she and her partner are unmarried. So cas sex-positive positions tend to be paired with female economic ascendancy, while cas sex-neg positions tend to be paired with SAHM optionality (which is buttressed by a high market price for sex).

    The sexual price war issue is not being discussed in these terms in most classrooms. Instead, the female students’ path to the executive suite is discussed and normalized—in other words, it has become axiomatic that “quality” women work to earn their own money. I’ve mentioned this before, but any attempted study or even discussion on the potential benefits to children of SAHM vs. full-time working mothers will not be touched. The ability of a woman to gain economic and social status benefits via high-priced, legally-protected transactional sex with a successful provisioner man is anathema to the current position.

    So I think that you can see this all in macro redistribution terms: the career man gets fewer resources and the career woman gets more, but this is made palatable for the man because he now needs fewer resources to gain access to sex, which was always his ultimate goal (proximate goals will change to fit localized strategic incentives). This changes the resources/sex exchange rate in a way that punishes women who were not interested in sticking with their careers, but the career woman has no love for them, anyway.

  105. 105
    BuenaVista says:

    In the above, is ‘cas’ short for ‘casual’?

  106. 106
    BuenaVista says:

    #103: In a career arc of 30 years I worked with, employed, and had head-on collisions with more than a few of the alpha female PowerFem set that BB discusses.

    I agree that this is the playbook:

    “The ability of a woman to gain economic and social status benefits via high-priced, legally-protected transactional sex with a successful provisioner man is anathema to the current position.”

    However, all athletes age. I don’t know a single one of the PowerFems over-40 who, no matter her ideological compliance, wouldn’t abandon her career in a second for a stable existence as an early retiree in the care of a manly sort. Or the pseudo-professional lifestyle of a Susan Walsh (she’s busy, but someone else is sustaining the family) (my ex- ‘teaching’ at a couple galleries and escorting schoolkids at a third museum; she’s probably knocking down $25K a year, while maintaining three houses). Not a single one.

    The alpha females I know who stay in the game are clearly the dominant party in their marriages. They’re senior execs now, they’re powerful, and they’re raking it in. But — at best, they express fondness, as though for a favorite old spaniel, when discussing their husbands. At best, their husbands smile on command and drift through rooms without interrupting the conversations that exclude them. Normally, these women flirt openly, kiss one on the lips, and spit mild disregard in the direction of their spouses. So my experience questions the durability of the PowerFem model. Time lays waste to all pretensions.

    I’ve no information on spinster PowerFems: I avoid them like I avoid Atlanta.

  107. 107
    A Definite Beta Guy says:

    Candide,

    The Masculine Mystique, heh…

    An important thing to note for men of my generation: there is no such thing as the Masculine Mystique. You know how you talk about “real” men? Wouldn’t have even registered in young ADBG’s mind. Men were hyper-aggressive and testosterone ladened creature who needed to be restricted, such was the dominant message we were getting from television shows and movies (and somewhat reinforced by the school).
    The most manly men were the jerkaholics jocks who just ruined girls for LIFE didn’t you know?!
    Anyone ever see the movie Carrie 2? Very shitty sequel, but I saw it because I had some distant contact with the female lead. The whole plot is football players banging girls for “points” and the Carrie 2 girl gets pissed and gets all stabby.
    Then she gets snapped out of it by her true love boyfriend jock or whatever.
    Nothing is said about the girls going after any of the guys, or the intense social pressure the guys feel to conform…nah, it’s all about the girls getting duped, and the school psychologist wants to prosecute all the boys for accessories to murder because one of the girls “an hero”d.

    No masculine mystique back then. Hell, my nerdy group of friends felt that our sexual drives were distractions from our studies and learning….one of my friends decided to convince his dead to try testosterone suppressors.
    Now he posts pictures of his deeply infected bite marks on facebook.
    There but for the grace of god I go.

    One other thing you should know: you aren’t Ashley.
    My friends never understood. To them, she just looked like a boy with very tiny boobs. To me, she was a demure light brown-haired girl, with gorgeous eyes, with a lifeguard’s body, who liked to sketch pretty pictures for the hell of it, non-threatening but approachable, smiling, until she was flustered, and then she wasn’t angry, but withdrawn and shy.

    An entire semester was spent trading glances with this girl. She was the first person I noticed at the college campus: we had the same 9 AM calc class, as silly little freshman, who showed up, books in hand, 15 minutes before class started, waiting at the door. I noticed her, thought I went to high school with her, and….
    Thought “oh, that’s a girl I thought was ugly in high school,” and went back to reading asimov’s Foundation and Empire. The Mule was more interesting, you see…
    One day, a few weeks in, I came into class a little late, made a big obnoxious stink, and sat in the row right behind her. That’s when she glanced back at me…and then glanced again…
    She seemed so shy and vulnerable. And I went just about crazy.
    Of course that was November, and I didn’t talk to her until….January….
    Oh boy I sucked :P
    Anndddd….it burned out. Nothing happened. I couldn’t figure out why. I went to talk to her. I asked her to hang out in non-threatening, friend circumstances. Nothing, nothing, nothing.
    I didn’t get it.
    So that’s when I started Roissy.
    She was THE reason, you see? I see a lot of guys coming here after their marriages crumbled to nothing….thankfully, for me, it was never that bad. It was just a girl, freshman year of college, that I just. Could. Not. Get. And I wanted her soooooo bad, so much worse than all the other girls, that I HAD to go anywhere possible to find out how to get her.
    I do not understand how exactly to explain this, because I lack the eloquence of Han or the intellect of BB or the forceful chastising of BV. So maybe I should Show, not Tell? When she first talked to me, I was reading “Free to Choose” by Friedman. That was the only time, in my whole life, I ever put down an economics book for a girl. That was the only time I dropped head-first into changing my personality, save when I was unemployed in the 2009 shit-cession with no experience. Years passed, and I would still wake up saying this girl’s name. Hell, when I came here, I was blue-pill to the core, but that slowly changed, TO GET THIS GIRL.
    At a certain point, I don’t know, she was just hard-wired, some sort of boot sector virus that latched on to “Breathing.Exe”
    Didn’t work, obviously. The next year, she went back to her ex boyfriend from high school. I fell in love with a different girl…with devastating consequences.
    It was childish and naive but there’s a certain energy to that.
    But the time came to put aside childish things, and what your girls should know is, you are not Ashley and you will never be Ashley. Partly because she isn’t real….partly because reality has crushed some of the brain parts necessary to feel that on any lengthy basis.
    There ain’t ever gonna be a girl like that one again.

    Not even she can do it anymore. Met her and some friends for drinks this past week.
    Just a girl, just a girl, she’s just a girl. And I don’t even have to tell myself that to keep myself from getting nervous.
    Ashley, my dear, you are just a girl.
    Off to bed…

  108. 108
    Starlight says:

    Captivating story, ADBG! Reminded me how clueless I was about guys when young. Completely blue pill for sure.

    Anyhow, congrats on your engagement! :)

  109. 109

    Made this observation on HUS more than once: To be truly red-pill, one must believe women are not, in some parts of their emotional lives, rational.
    For example, wrt the shit test: Women will say, “If he can’t stand up to me, how will he stand up for me?”
    Two problems there: One is that his reaction to her being a brat tells her how he’ll do when a couple of pit bulls get loose. Makes no sense.
    The other is that she–whomever she is–is a strong, empowered, independent woman who can rip your guts out (on line) but if you pass her on the road when she has a flat tire, you’re an asshole.

    For people who think highly of humans’ rational processes, this is disappointing.

    So I would suggest that some people are blue pill because that’s been in their ambient atmosphere all their lives, and some, not because they’re weak, because they think people are largely rational and logical. Divergence from this–in which women seem to need or to react favorably to the red pill–is seen as a flaw and a tell that the woman in question is not a good bet for any kind of relationship.

    Not sure what ADBG was expecting to happen while he was going through the anguish. Was she supposed to make the move, or were you trying to get up the nerve yourself? If the latter, I suspect we’ve all missed chances due to lack of nerve. That’s one of the issues with the red pill. You missed the chance because you didn’t RED PILL, which is to say, have the guts/nerve/BALLSTESTOSTERONETESTICLES to do what you should have done. Which is a hell of a thing to have to accept. Better figure the woman in question was a nutcase or a tease or wanted a jerk or something.

  110. 110
    BuenaVista says:

    Regarding Ashley, it reminds me of the young woman I saw in my dorm at 18, and of whom (on a 2000 student campus) I fantasized for two years. Her face and legs launched a thousand ships for me. She never noticed me. She didn’t notice me when I would attempt to bump into her in the cafeteria salad bar, leaving the fieldhouse after practice, when seated 20 feet away in the library. I just didn’t exist.

    Two years later, after two years of lifting and filling out for football and baseball, she was in the kitchen of my group house — and I learned that she asked my housemate “who is that guy?” I stole her away from her fiance in two weeks. She moved in with me four months later, married me three years after that, and over 20 years we produced two children. The fact that I never forgot what it was like to dance with her for the first time, or put her on my motorcycle for a ride home, and all the rest of it, made the divorce — which was a divorce, I suppose, from the false consciousness of the soul mate trope — a challenge.

    Her second marriage is in its 7th or 8th year and appears to be crumbling, or at least devolving into the permanent compromised state that is the majority condition. I had lunch with her last week to discuss the children and experienced the same surge of projection and desire, driving into town to meet her near one of the galleries where she works. Should I test the waters here? I even wondered. I know about her difficulties from our daughter, but my ex- doesn’t know I know.

    So throughout the meal my brain ping-ponged from its youthful state (overwhelming infatuation) and its current state (this is the person who ended our family, then married a dullard for money who is now making her miserable?). She wanted, and took, a long hug afterwards. I confess, ADBG, this soul mate stuff is a powerful drug, and as with other powerful drugs, one is forever recovering once exposed. As far as I can tell, even a hypergamous woman (do I repeat myself?) prefers to subscribe indefinitely.

  111. 111
    BuenaVista says:

    In the context of our discussion of the prodigal in the post above, it is an interesting test of my heart and mind to consider this ex-wife as a hypothetical prodigal herself, were she to wish to reunite. (She won’t, I won’t, everyone calm down.) I suppose in this hypothetical, she would be the wandering younger son, arriving home bankrupt and vulnerable after her 10-year voyage of self-discovery. Which perhaps makes me, in my initial reaction to the idea, the even less appealing rule-following, self-celebrating, self-righteous Pharisee.

  112. 112

    BV.
    No, it doesn’t. Self protection is a completely different issue. Even if there is some sneaking satisfaction at the process, it’s self-protection first.

  113. 113
    A Definite Beta Guy says:

    RA,

    I ain’t blaming anyone but myself, because the buck ultimately stops with me. There was a serous nerve problem, but even overcoming the nerve problem? Really, I had no idea what I was doing, couldn’t keep interesting conversation going, couldn’t make our one “date” fun, etc.
    There was a whole suite of programs I was missing, not just one application bug.

    Better now!
    The “chicks dig jerks” thing is sort of how to view your behavior with them, after the initial approach. I kinda act like a dick, depending on who you talk to….sometimes a giant obnoxious dick, too.

  114. 114

    ADBG
    There are some skills there, too. There’s an old story from nineteenth century England. Some lady, top of the nobility, was at a dinner party with the two leading pols of the country. “After twenty minutes with Lord So-and-So, I thought he was the most interesting person in the room. After twenty minutes with Lord Such-and-Such, I thought I was the most fascinating person in the room.”
    Probably a compromise in there, someplace.
    At that age, I think all us guys figured we were only as good as our last date. I suspect that going someplace that was fun for us, and at least not horrid for her, would have been at least as good, if not better.

  115. 115

    Richard Aubrey….a similar story was told about Churchill and David Lloyd George. The teller said that if you asked Churchill about any subject..say, “balloons”..you would get a brilliant 15-minute lecture on balloons: their history, present status, uses, and probable future…but if you asked Lloyd George, he would spend 15 minutes finding out what YOU thought about balloons.

    A related story was that Lloyd George was staying at a resort where an old-line Tory, who hated Lloyd George and all he stood for, was staying. The man swore that if he were introduced to DLG, he would refuse to even speak to him.

    A few hours later, DLG had the man eating out of his hand.

  116. 116

    David Foster.
    I’ve heard that story, as well, although I heard it after the Disraeli (I think it was) story. Takes longer, though.
    Good technique for setting up a sales relationship, which may or may not be within your defintion of the relationship between a man and a woman at the beginning.
    Traditionally, women have been counseled to listen attentively to boost the guy’s ego or something. Ought to work in reverse, hey? And wny would that be a bad thing? After all, we’re dealing with a whole person who could probably use a boost one day or another.
    If a woman thinks a guy finds her fascinating, there may have to be some consideration of not allowing that to seem needy.
    Again, I refer to the relationship I’ve termed the “congenial colleague”. No contact outside the issue–employment, ex–which brings them together, but they get along famously during it.
    Got some IOI in those situations, which, as I have said elsewhere, I figured out twenty or thirty years later.

  117. 117
    Mallarde says:

    I just wish women knew how much more attractive we find them when they are 25 rather than 35 or 40.

    Marriage loses its appeal if you only get your bride after she is spent.

  118. 118
    A Definite Beta Guy says:

    But, RA, where was I to learn these skills?
    Today, I watched the movie Patch Adams. Stupid film, if you ask me. Cultural insurgent who thinks it is just plain silly that we have doctors focused on things like medicine and that he as a medical student should not be allowed to practice medicine, or that he should do odd things like pay for medical supplies (why not just steal them from the hospital???)

    The titular Patch Adams meets a stereotypical Ice Queen. This girl really wants to be a doctor. Why? Because she wants to be a doctor. Why? Because she wants to be a….okay, you get it.
    She brushes him off because she gets hit on non-stop.
    So he becomes “friends” with her, and orbits her for years.
    FOR YEARS.
    The movie treats this as the HEIGHT of male awesomeness. Friend Zone for YEEEARRRRRRRSSSSSS. That’s the most he should aspire to.
    He’s a potential doctor, he makes people laugh, mad social skills, true leader of men, and what does he do with all this SMV?
    FRIEND ZONEEEE!
    And, again this is the HEIGHT of male social power, shown in the movie.

    The girl cries and confesses that she had such a terrible life, because men always found her attractive.
    I was thinking this might lead into some sort of childhood abuse story.
    Nope.
    Her apparent social problem is that men found her attractive.

    This is the social message your generation pounded into my head, RA. If God Himself bestowed ADBG with the social powers of a Casanova, it is the HEIGHT of impertinence to find a girl attractive: I must instead orbit her.
    For years.

    Your fault? Nahhhhh. Not you personally. But you guys were in charge, and this is the message you decided I should get.

    And that’s why I failed so hard with Ashley. Uncouth though he may be, Roissy taught me more than all people before, put together, times 10, and my life would be shit if that guy hadn’t blogged.

  119. 119
    HanSolo says:

    ADBG It’s a powerful contrast between the message we got of what should be attractive and what is attractive.

  120. 120
    Liz says:

    Very insightful thread.
    Lol! Candide “Male mystique” :-)

    I’m a female, but I do know a lot of dudes (though not in the biblical sense) from my perspective, men are pretty simple.
    They want you to value them (ipso facto loyalty included with that), stay pretty and fit, be nice, don’t be a retard. But they’ll usually even put up with the last, if you’re a nice enough person and adore them, and make them feel loved. Every man wants his sigoth/wife to value him very highly, and act like they value him very highly. If you value a person and desire them, it should be reflected in actions, to include the sexual experience.

  121. 121
    Liz says:

    Need an edit: Change the last bit from “going to be reflected” to “should be reflected”.

    [Done]

  122. 122
    Liz says:

    Thanks! You’re awesome…I didn’t mean it as a mod request, just a reader’s heads up. :-)

    Though…I suppose the whole post is impertinent, considering the topic on this thread is addressed to men. ((sheepish smilie))

  123. 123
    A Definite Beta Guy says:

    Han,

    It is indeed. But teaching men about these things is generally considered poor form, so what do you expect? The age puts us in Iron Pants and demands that we dance. In the end it will be handed the kind of shit it demanded.

  124. 124

    ADBG
    Nobody told us the message was bullshit. I was a fraternity grad adviser, in addition to my conventional college career. So, what with one thing or another, I heard about “things”. She says her roommate wants to know what’s wrong with you/are you gay/is she ugly.
    I talked with guys who were puzzled. She said this, then she did that, then she said the opposite, and I get the impression I didn’t do something I should have, but I don’t know.
    And now she’s doing this other thing/going with this other guy….

    Romance novels, or historical romances, are supposed to be a $2 billion industry. Unlike booze–a bottle of which costs about the same as a hardback– the books can be reused or given to a friend. And the story invariably involves an alpha male going for it. So I’m told. Used to hang out in a romance novel writers’ workshop. It’s worse than you think.
    Problem is that the first response was supposed to be…What kind of a girl do you think I am?–which required a further effort, which was frequently not forthcoming.
    In a perverse sense, it presumed women were more rational and agentic than does red pill. They were presumed to say what they mean, and mean what they say. Hence the confusion about women being crazy. The presumption was so often contradicted by reality, but nobody said to think about the presumption. Particularly women.
    We all knew guys who were piling up the N. They were generally forthright guys, or perhaps those who weren’t weren’t talking so we didn’t know. But since it was against The Message, we figured there must be something wrong with the women in question.
    However the women thought about the orbiters they wished would drop out of orbit, to make a bad metaphor, you have to keep in mind it was the women who were pushing the Message publicly. Guys were supposed to know it was bullshit–except when it wasn’t–but you’d never get a woman to hint at such a thing, except for the occcasional lament, always to an uninvolved third party, including a couple of times a Greek grad adviser named Aubrey. Who couldn’t believe what he was hearing, either.

  125. 125

    It wasn’t that we were all a bunch of wimps. Strong men thought they were doing the right thing, doing the same thing as wimps.

  126. 126
    A Definite Beta Guy says:

    Richard,

    I don’t disbelieve you, mostly because the reason that my generation got the same shit message, is because the shit message was never dispelled by the previous generations. And the previous generations, definitely got a ton of shit. My generation isn’t marrying: previous generations started up the divorce meat-grinder.
    Only real difference is that the effect of bad game was delayed on prior generations and mine is getting Nuke-BAR’d right out of the gate.

    The only difference I would think is that I think my generation got a…..ermmm…”Purified’ message. Honestly, even movies like Hitch seemed absolutely banned in my truly formative high school years. I think it reached peak-dumbass for a lot of us before the blow-back happened.
    And the environment has changed to really, really punish relationships, etc.

    But, hey, things are better now. The message didn’t get through to me until a little later, but it’s there now. BUT, doesn’t make sense for the powers-that-be to just scratch the heads like a bunch of teen girls, wondering where men got this message, and why don’t they just GET IT?
    And then blame us for believing in the stupid stuff we got.

  127. 127

    ADBG
    On HUS, I asked several times a question more or less like;
    If/since blue pill is universally believed to be a Really Bad Idea, crippling people by the metric shitload, whose idea was it, where did it come from, who’s keeping it going, and WHY?
    What’s the freaking point?
    My idea back in the day wasn’t moral/social, etc. I figured two things: Women were rational creatures who said what they meant and meant what they said. Who’d want to think differently about half the human race? We came a long and agonizing way to develop the forebrain. Secondly, as many have said, sex is a bigger deal for women in terms of pregnancy, more likely to get STD, be alone with somebody bigger and stronger, etc. So if you don’t get a very strong signal, don’t go there. She doesn’t want it.
    I’m sure I’ve mentioned beyond most folks’ interest in the subject, the IOI I got back in the day and didn’t figure out for twenty years. Some of them were embarrassing, or at least I would be embarrassed to watch some young chump get these wet sandbags upside the head and interpret them as a social pleasantry.
    But, with one or maybe no exceptions, they were probably about seeing about a relationship.
    My wife, with whom I discussed this, thinks they thought I was possibly okay and wanted to move one ring in and find out if I really was okay.
    I had no idea.
    I don’t get pop culture references. Didn’t see Hitch or Patch Adams, don’t watch the serials like S&TC or whatever. Don’t see many movies. Hamburger Hill is my fave, but I have to have a bottle and be batching it, so I don’t do it very often. So I’ll have to take your word for it.
    However, I grew up near Detroit when there were three TV channels from our side and the Windsor station. Windsor did old movies and NHL–when there were six teams. From what I recall, the guys in the old movies weren’t orbiting beta chumps. I saw lots of old flicks, many from Britain. No orbiting beta chumps, which is to say, they weren’t pitching that particular brand of blue pill in pop culture. And the same is true of post-war movies up until some time or other. Fifties, maybe. Sixties, even.
    Christina Hoff Sommers, in her book “Who Stole Feminism”, examines romance novels with the alpha male. Starts it with the mother of all historical romance novels, Gone With The Wind, which had been a best-selling novel before it became one of the most well-known, enduring movies in history. They all require an alpha male. Who gets the girl.
    Romance novels may be restricted in their readership, but GWTW is not a favorite solely of women.
    The morning after Clark Gable carries Scarlett up the broad staircase, we see her with an obscenely-sated look on her face. There’s a story there, and it isn’t blue pill.
    So where did blue pill come from and why and whose idea is it and why does it persist?

  128. 128
    YOHAMI says:

    I look at it from a sells perspective.

    It sells women they are worth their weight in gold.

    It sells betas they can get the girl if they reaaaallly overdoit.

    There are enough buyers for that feel good thingy.

    On the other hand, tell women they are not that special.

    And tell betas they have no value in the eyes of women.

    Not that many buyers.

    If people were inclined for the truth per se, heck, I dont know if this would work well. I know I would fit better. What people want is to bend reality so it fits their needs with lil change. Change is the very last resort.

    The blue pill speaks to something there.

  129. 129
    YOHAMI says:

    The blue pill is a man listening to a girl complaining about the alpha dude, and taking her word as face value.

  130. 130
  131. 131
    A Definite Beta Guy says:

    How did the Blue Pill originate? Hmmmm. Tough to say. Wasn’t around for that. By the time I was around, it was Truth. You might as well ask a 5th grader how gravity was invented. It just is, man.
    Why does it persist? Inertia and….consequences.
    Or, rather, people who don’t believe unintended consequences exist.
    On the way back home, the fiance messaged me and said her mom was worried, because if fiance dropped out of the work force to raise children, we wouldn’t be able to support ourselves.
    Two thoughts:
    1. No shit
    2. Way ahead of you
    But, yes, future Mother-In-Law, despite being religious (and not frankly good at it because your children seem confused that the 10 Commandments are something that Jews believe in, too), you bought into the over-arching feminine-driven Cathedral non-sense that said high-achieving women need high-achieving jobs from big, big schools. Your daughter wanted to be a teacher, you pressured her into becoming a doctor, now she has to work long hours to work off that debt.
    Sorry, darling. Sow wind, read whirlwind. I’ll take care of her for you, because she’s very important to me…you worry about your single 30 year old daughter in the NYC meat-grinder, and your law school daughter who is also ramping up crazy debt and has terrible job prospects….oh, and she insists on no pre-marital sex, and good luck catching a high value man with THAT! How many men has she burned through in the past year….like four?
    Anyways, no understanding of consequences=Blue Pill MUST be a great idea. There can be no blowback. Nothing unintended. None of these ladies are bad folk and I quite like them. The future mother-in-law was a stay at home and raised five children. Damn more than I ever accomplished and if I do half as much as I can take the dirt nap happily :)
    But, she doesn’t get how SMP dynamics work. She doesn’t get that if her daughter actually pushed “no sex” with me, I would have nexted her ass without a second though…or rather, she would think that this means axiomatically that I have terrible character. She doesn’t get the SMP, thus it can never actually be wrong. The Blue Pill is a dynamic that can only ever protect, and it is a restructuring of social norms to protect women from men demanding things of them.
    See, if Blue Pill was 100% true, then it wouldn’t matter that her daughter had pre-marital sex, I wouldn’t hold that against her and I would happily accept that her daughter is so much better. In the relationship “exchange,” she gets a whole lot more, without having to actually offer anything. If there’s a fight, it’s my fault, and I have to correct it. Whatever she wants to do with her life is fine, and I have to work to support her, and if I cannot make enough to support her and her debt and a family and a big house like Daddy has, then I am a weak man, and if she chooses to cheat on me and divorce me, then it was probably my fault.
    Blue Pill is fundamentally restructuring social norms to serve girl interests in the dating market, by selling men THEIR version of love. Much like Insurance “reform” is restructuring the economy to serve entrenched interest groups, and by selling the dupes some stupid vision of how things will be.
    Consequences will happen….but as Dalrock would put it, feminism would work if only weak men did not ruin everything:
    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/10/17/feminism-would-work-if-we-didnt-have-weak-men-screwing-everything-up/
    Blue Pill persist for the same reason idiot die-hards believed in communism…until it became obviously unworkable and the whole system collapsed in short order.
    Blue Pill won’t die like that, but that’s how it survives.

    Mothers, I have found, do not realize there is a problem, until they begin seeing hard-core consequences on their sons. I have a very nice, very docile friend, with his own condo downtown, just starting a nice job as an architect. Can’t even get a second date.
    Mother, now realizing her dreams of grandchildren are in jeopardy…
    “YOU NEED TO BE MORE LIKE CHRISTIAN GREY! BE A JERK! GO WORK OUT!”
    When genes are actually at stake?

    Oh, yeah. They’ll get it. VERY quickly, they’ll get it.

    Back to the communists? They had their own version of everything. Their own version of history, their own version of music, philosophy, etc.
    There’s a story that one of the nation’s top scientists went to Stalin and said, you can have either the atomic bomb, or communist science.
    He was not disappeared, and all science became Western science, because Stalin wanted to nuke people.
    If you give women the choice between not becoming grandmothers or the red pill, I bet you’ll get plenty of Matrix Bullet-Dodgers.

  132. 132
    Jimmy says:

    @ADBG
    Good stuff.

  133. 133
    Starlight says:

    Awesome reading the conversation between ADBG, Richard Aubrey and Yohami. :)

  134. 134

    ADBG
    Good discussion of the persistence. I’m interested, being an observer and mildly curious about history and people, where it started. As I said, about movies, Hollywood was pitching it niether as an ideal nor a reflection of reality when the current generation of curmudgeons, like me, was growing up.
    It was said of Ronald Reagan that when he was making movies, Hollywood was sweating bullets to show an America the audience wanted to see. Implication was that was where Ronaldus Maximus got his political views. Irrespective of where the views originated, the connection between the audience and the flicks seems reasonable. Then. Now?
    Went to Branson last year–example–during the offseason and saw six shows. It was remarkably hard to find an aging country and western singer. Saw various other shows–Twelve Irish Tenors, etc.–but one characteristic struck me. One of the shows included a nice observation about veterans. Four asked vets to stand–and be applauded. By this time, what with the knees and all, we’d rather just wave. IOW, they were pandering to the audience, but that tells you about the audience.
    To return to Hollywood, their movies tell you about the audience. Except, as Michael Medved says, the family flicks make money while the hip, edgy flicks lose money but the H-wooders give each other awards for them.
    So the question is the connection between H-wood and social reality.
    In retrospect, I think the women I knew in college were not really happy with the blue pill, in the main. Not that they were necessarily interested in giving it up on the third date. But they couldn’t even get a guy they liked and who probably liked them, to step up and try to date, or even talk about being exclusive.
    Due to my position of large, trained scoutmaster of a fraternity, I heard from both sides, including others in some version of my position. There was a gap between willing folks which something, likely the blue pill, kept some people from crossing.

    WRT Stalin and the scientist, I suspect this guy was not the first, but the first to acttually convince the monster.

    All of which said, red pill, true or not, offends me because of what it says about women.

  135. 135

    What you guys call the Blue Pill emerged from the Collective Traditional Wisdom of the Race, AKA The Way Things Are pre-Hormonal Birth Control. ADBG’s sexual negotiations with his fiancée, which are as common as pigeon droppings these days, would have been unthinkable before Griswold vs. Connecticut. What we have been experiencing in the last 50 years has been the impact of the unlinking of sex and reproduction.

    I am a Boomer, older than most of you, younger than Richard. Nothing, absolutely nothing, has remained in place from the Sexual Constitution that prevailed when I was in middle school, except for the demand of women that their men be “More” than they are. Under the old sexual constitution, when women’s access to economic resources was still somewhat restricted, this was a relatively easy requirement for most men to fulfill. It is no longer.

    I also think there is an element of the Frontier experience in the America Blue Pill. Historically, women in America were scarce and were even scarcer in the wilder parts of the continent. This led to them being highly prized. A lot, A LOT, of what passed for “religious revival” on the frontier was actually the domestication of the frontier men, making them amenable for the society of women, bringing the frontier areas under the rule of law, allowing relatively scarce and valuable women to feel safe there. I cannot argue for this with documentation, but it seems a solid intuition. It led to a relative over-valuation of the woman’s domestic role, culminating in the Victorian and Wilsonian era of hearth-and-mother worship. which switched after World War I, the advent of Empire and the dizzying expansion of the masculine sphere. Women in the meantime, found their lives trivialized by the advent of labor saving household appliances. Separated by the new mobility and rootlessness from their extended families, they looked at the relatively dazzling achievements of their husbands and brothers, compared it to their own constricting sphere, and began to feel trapped. This coincided with an expanded need to shovel more technocratically-trained labor into the bowels of Empire.

    There is a lot more going on here than just a bunch of middling dudes not getting laid.

  136. 136
    deti says:

    I can’t back any of this up with history or scholarship. This is based on my basic historical and social sciences knowledge.

    To me the Blue Pill’s origins are in the New Testament, which held that men are and should be free through worship of Christ. Men and women are equal before God. God is represented through kings and kings represented through nobility.

    This gave rise to Western civilization of the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. During this period of time the chivalry code of conduct came into being, requiring that men of stature protect the weak and infirm. One of the defining features of the Renaissance/enlightenment was the sociopolitical idea that humans can, and should, be able to govern themselves through a proper relationship between and among God, earthly government, and the individual. A strict moral code arising from the Ten Commandments, the Gospels and writings from the Protestant Reformation were the underpinnings. The contours of this were:

    1.. Lutheran/Calvinist work ethic,

    2, hard work rewarded by rudimentary free market capitalism;

    3. worship of God (with cultural and societal sanctioning and approval of that worship);

    4. rejection of Roman Catholic legalism and a few of its traditions while adhering strictly to Biblical textual requirements and statements about human nature, Man’s relationship to God, and Man’s relationship to his fellow man

    5. The family (an adult male, his wife, and their children) as the basic building block of society

    6. Restriction of sexual conduct to within marriage, and definition of marriage as a union of one man and one woman (as it had been strictly under the Roman Catholic tradition and the Biblical texts)

    7. Intense familial, societal and cultural pressure to conform to 1 through 6 above.; and imposition of very harsh consequences on boys and girls who violated them, especially the provisions of 6. Boys who became rakes and libertines; and girls who became sluts; were shamed, shunned and marginalized. Only the nobles and very wealthy could avoid such consequences, and sometimes even they could not. Divorce was frowned on. Adulterous men could count on supporting an ex wife until her death. Adulterous women could count on walking away with little more than the clothes on their backs.

    All this was a Blue Pill prescription. Why? With a good understanding of human nature, our ancestors understood that girls would want only the top men; most boys wouldn’t be able to get girls on their own; and a good percentage of them would be killed at early ages anyway through war, disease, exposure, famine, or work injury.

    All had a place, and there was a place for everyone. Assortative mating was the name of the game. You might not get the best man; but nearly every woman who wanted one got one, and he was under intense pressure to stay with her and take care of her. He might not get the hottest wife, but he could get one, and she was under intense pressure to stay with him, not cheat or try to do better, and make the best of it. Those men who couldn’t get married remained single; or went into the priesthood. Those women who couldn’t get married worked as spinsters or went to convents.

    If you wanted sex (and most boys and girls did), you got married, because it was the only way you were going to get that. If you wanted kids (and most women did), you got married, because that was the only way you were going to get a man willing to stay with you and take care of you and your kids.

    Blue pill says to men: A real man is one who gets married and takes care of his children, works, and sacrifices himself for his wife and children. A real man is one who takes responsibility for himself, his family, and then for his fellow man. And you do these things because God expects them of you; your wife needs them from you; and your society depends on you.

    And when you do these things, you will be rewarded. You will receive a wife who will at least be yours and with whom you can have lots of sex and she cannot and will not turn you away. (Bonus if she really digs you.) You will be given a good paying job on which you can support yourself and your family, and on which you can enjoy a few things too. You will not starve, you will have clothes on your backs and roofs over your heads, a car in your garage and a chicken in your pot.

    So in the end, blue pill men, you do these things because they are the right thing to do because God says so; because your society needs you to do them; and because your future family needs you to do them. And when you do them, rich rewards will be bestowed upon you. Poon. Money. Freedom from want and fear. Everything you need, and a few things you want.

    You could still see remnants of this when I was coming of age in the 1980s, about 25 years after Griswold v CT and 15 years after Roe v. Wade. We were still hearing versions of this everywhere in the churches, the media, our parents, everywhere.

    And the girls internalized it too. Their biggest concern about sex during my college years was not about STDs; or sluthood or later marriage; but about unplanned pregnancy. They didn’t want to have to get abortions. They didn’t think of themselves as sluts because they were having sex with college boyfriends in the confines of a relationship (serial monogamy) and they were going to get married later. Sure, these girls were having more sex, but they didn’t broadcast it and didn’t talk about it. Why? Because they had a sense of responsibility (that was rapidly dwindling nonetheless as everyone around them scrambled to find ways to justify and excuse everything they did). They knew if they got knocked up, they were just as much on the hook as were the men who knocked them up.

    But meanwhile, the men and women who didn’t go to college? Most of them got tradesmen jobs and married in their early 20s. They weren’t immune from the cultural changes though, as many of the women got FOMO and YOLO syndromes, and ended their fledgling marriages. Some of them from traditional backgrounds are still together.

    The feminine imperative machine ramped up and reinforced the blue pill message of work and get rewards. At the same time it worked overtime to excuse and justify female sexual behavior. This is how the tradcon refrain of “man up and marry the sluts” arose. It’s basically the same as “work and get rewards” while including a heaping helping of “these women just want babies and families and this is because you men aren’t doing the work”. All this coincided with second wave feminism which said men and women are exactly the same except for genitalia. There was also the beginnings of third wave feminism with the sex positive message of “women and men can have good, positive, rich and rewarding sexual lives without marriage and commitment”.

    That’s what’s brought us here today. Parents in the 1970s and 80s were still giving boys the blue pill message of “work and get rewards” while having no idea what was going on in the culture around them.

    Asinus is right that all of this comprised a sexual constitution which was in place until around 1965. Griswold v. Connecticut started to systematically dismantle that constitution. Now, nothing is left of that constitution.

  137. 137
    Han Solo says:

    asinus, interesting thoughts on the arch of American history.

    deti, good description of the blue pill and that it used to actually work and be beneficial to most. Then it changed and men were still expected to play their blue-pill part without women being expected to play theirs as much. So, what rankles about the modern blue-pill is that men are expected to do their “historic” provider duties but the women are not expected to do their “wifely” duties and women are expected to delay marriage and have fun for a while and then the men are just supposed to be there for the women when they are ready.

    So what rankles men is they’re told one thing but the reality on the ground is different. I think most men would be very happy if by being a good guy and a good provider would pay off like it did 50 or 100 years ago. But that’s not the case. I think many men would prefer to know the red pill knowledge, that even though things aren’t as easy relationship-wise for average and lower men these days, they’d know the reality they need to work within, that developing their sexy side is going reap more benefits than presenting themselves as a virtuous boyscout that’s willing to help the spinster cross the road.

    So, yeah, today’s sexual market is harder for average and lower young men but what really sucks is being told to act in a certain way that just doesn’t work very much to attract women, combined with the double standards where men have to be responsible for so many things while the women don’t.

  138. 138

    HS, deti –

    This disconnect between the traditional advice given to both young men and young women reminds me of the growing dysfunction in Western organizational behavior (depicted in The Office, UK or US, they’re both brilliant) where you have a small layer of Sociopaths manipulating a middle layer of Clueless True Believers to shear a mass of minimally-performing Losers at the bottom.

    The Losers are usually self-aware enough to realize they are being exploited, but they have made a deal with Belial, which is why they usually do the minimum necessary to get by. The Clueless TBs, who really Believe in the Cause, are necessary in the same way that the cadmium rods are necessary in an atomic reactor. They buffer the Sociopaths from the Losers, giving them time to strip mine all the value from the organization, and also provide someone to promote into positions of tortious liability when the Sociopaths make their exit. This process used to take decades. It now takes quarters. We are quickly approaching endgame as the engine picks up speed. If the dollar loses its place as the world’s reserve currency, then the stripmining of the whole 400 year Anglo-American Whig project is at an end. (Hey, Cap’n Capitalism – you can always spend more than you take in if you can convince the rest of the world’s inhabitants to exchange your IOUs amongst themselves as payment for their own transactions)

    In the same way, society cannot run with a mass of feral hypergamous women and red-pill men, at least not without massive government subsidies. The blue pill men serve the same purpose, as cadmium rods holding things in place until the elite find their exit strategy.

    You guys are playing with something more explosive than dynamite.

  139. 139

    deti,
    I like history and speculating on causes and effects.
    Two quibbles: One is that this is speculation. The other is how the experience of th American frontier backfilled Victorian and Edwardian Europe and Britain.
    May or may not be relevant: Read an archaelogical report on female skeletons from the Middle Ages. Forensic investigation reveals they did far more of the hardest work than had been thought until then. So maybe they could get along, with a couple or three things going for them, without a husband. Be difficult, but not beyond the physical capacity.

    My concern about the red pill is not the entire relationship between men and women now or historically, but about the relationship prior to marriage–if any–and how men should be addressing such things, including the initial approach.
    Coincidentally, I saw the end of NCIS-LA tonight. Guy asks a girl out for tacos and they end up in a nice–really nice–French restaurant. She says, this is not tacos. She says, you’re not saying something you should be saying and it’s making me crazy and I don’t think I can handle it. He obfuscates a bit. She refers to an earlier instance of the same.
    He says, I don’t want to be here. She looks astonished.
    He says, I want to be at my place with you. Dramatic closeup gazes. She gets up and he follows.
    So now, ADBG, we see Hollywood and the red pill. Maybe the worst is over.
    Planted axiom is that she was ready. Try that on a woman who is not….

  140. 140
    Morpheus says:

    BB @ 62, incisive thoughts on validation versus transactional sex.

    I think the vast majority of men obviously prefer validation sex, but transactional sex is better than nothing. I think many men enter into relationships not fully aware that it is mostly transactional. I’m reminded of a blogger who mentioned going many months with little to no sex with her husband, and it took him issuing an ultimatum to get their sex life going again. Clearly, her arrangement was transactional in obtaining beta provisioning in exchange for sexual access. I recently read a thread where multiple women were talking about “allowing” for quickies and “accomodating” the man’s desire for sex. The very choice in language points to the fact that the sex is mostly if not entirely transactional. I certainly wouldn’t accept that arrangement, but I guess for many guys transactional sex is the best option.

  141. 141

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  142. 142

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  143. 143

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  144. 144
    Shirleen says:

    S” Then she re-attaches them after the third year a student forbidden city at the top? Once you have any therapeutic value that allows your body smells could also stimulate proper circulation, as assessed by nerve sensitivity measurements. The chi flows throughout the day there’s going to spend an afternoon in the way home from school, your scalp, a boy and his tail just wouldn’t swish. And clinical trials RCT that put all kinds of illnesses such as cocaine and marijuana, have suggested that it modifies disease.

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  147. 147
    JDub says:

    Very interesting reading guys! I’m a woman who is currently “just friends” with a man. We are both married. It started out as a very hot physical attraction to one another, but we talked and we never acted upon it due to the fact that we were both hitched. However, we decided that we liked one another a lot on other levels and continued to have contact. I’ve reached a point after 5 months where I know that I would like “more” from him…and I am willing to give in to it. However, he does not want to give in because of our public connection to one another, and the risk of losing his career, family, etc. He assures me that I am beautiful and I turn him on (told me I could take that to the bank). I recently told him that he could blow me off if he needed to and that I could deal with it. I thought maybe he was just being friends with me to be nice and pacify me. He immediately contacted me and told me how much my friendship meant to him and how he wanted to be there for me. If men and women cannot “just be friends”, then what is this man after? Help?!?

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