Much has been written and touched on of late regarding the phenomenon of “lane changing”. Essentially this is the phenomenon I described in my post on the “Just Treat Women as People” mating strategy.
“The opening gambit is a short term sexual strategy designed for rapid results and a longshot at commitment from a high value man. When it ultimately fails after an indefinite number of attempts, the tactic shifts to the long range goal of marriage to a “sure thing” beta. The strategy shift usually has nothing to do with the individual man, but on a number of other factors: (1) her perception of her interests, (2) her age, (3) her ability (or inability) to continue attracting high status men; and (4) the totality of all other surrounding circumstances.”
Some argue there is no such thing as “lane changing”. The argument is that people always “stay in their lanes”. In other words, if a particular woman is an alpha chaser, always seeking the thrill of the next new hot guy, that’s pretty much how she is and how she will always be, into adulthood and middle age. Similarly, girls who are relationship seekers, looking for that one special guy, are always like this, and they don’t ever change either.
For example,it is argued that, oh, sure, a girl might dabble in alpha chasing for a year or two; but that doesn’t mean she’s “unrestricted”. Or, a girl is having a lot of sex with different men, but she’s doing it because she’s just “looking for love in all the wrong places”. She doesn’t mean to be a slut; she’s doing this because she really just wants a relationship. And when that alpha dabbler gets into a relationship, that doesn’t mean she “changed lanes”. She was always a “restricted” type who got the relationship she wanted.
Morpheus laid out the argument here (which I’ve edited for clarity and brevity)
“I think it was (frequent J4G commenter and guest author) Jimmy Hendricks who coined the description of “lane changers”. I actually think it is a more nuanced, accurate, description in the shift of female mating behavior then the more oversimplified Alpha Fucks, Beta Bucks description. But there was a long drawn out debate [elsewhere] about whether women “change lanes”. Some steadfastly denied the lane changing behavior. Their ignorant position was that women don’t change lanes. Women who prefer and marry the betas always dated the betas of the world, and alpha chasers always chase alphas even as they cross 30, 35, 40. 45, etc.”
VALIDATION SEX AND TRANSACTIONAL SEX
Closely tied into this is the concept of Validation Sex and its counterpart, Transactional Sex. Frequent J4G commenter Bastiat Blogger has explained Validation Sex and Transactional Sex at great length at J4G on many occasions. Bastiat has explained Validation and Transactional Sex from the standpoint of men. To help understand the lane-changing phenomenon better, let’s examine the concepts from the female standpoint.
Validation Sex From the Female’s Vantage Point
Validation Sex is characterized by the woman’s rapid grant of sexual access to a man she deems attractive. She has sex quickly due to her attraction to the man and in the hope of receiving some benefit. She might have many reasons for doing so: Seeking alpha seed. Bragging rights, competition with other women. Elevation of her status relative to other women. A demonstration of her ability to attract the attention of an attractive man. A demonstration of her independence; “empowerment”. Seeking commitment from an attractive man.
In Validation Sex, the woman receives only a small amount of time and resources in return for her grant of sexual access. Rarely, the gamble pays off, the woman hits the jackpot, and she is able to secure commitment from the man. But by far the primary and most important benefit she receives is instant affirmation and validation of her sexual value. She concludes she is a high value woman because an attractive man wanted her for sex — one of the most valuable and sought-after assets she can offer. (Affirmation and Validation is absolutely crucial, because this is the initial payoff which encourages women to employ this strategy.) But Validation Sex rarely results in commitment.
For men, Validation Sex is low cost, low risk, high reward. But it’s very, very different for women. For a woman, the costs and risks of Validation Sex are very high. In the sexual and marriage marketplaces, her most valuable asset is access to her body – sexual access. If she wants to engage in Validation Sex, she will probably have to barter away sex frequently to men who will pay next to nothing for it. She will have to do so repeatedly, all in an effort to find the one alpha who will offer her commitment. Most of the time, she fails in this effort. High risks, high costs.
Transactional Sex From the Female Vantage Point
In Transactional Sex, the woman preconditions sexual access upon her receipt of some tangible benefit either preceding sex or concomitantly with sex. There is also escalation involved – more sexual access requires greater resource outlay and/or investment from the man. (The man, if he is savvy enough, also plays the game – he may withhold time and resources if further sexual access is not given.) Transactional Sex can occur in the span of a few hours or a few years. The passage of time is secondary to the concept of the roughly equivalent sex/ investment exchanges.
In Transactional Sex, the woman receives benefits in return for the grant of sexual access. The man and woman both benefit, though. He receives steady sex. She receives increasing amounts of commitment. The benefits she receives are more tangible and durable; but with much less immediate gratification.
The costs and risks of Transactional Sex for the woman are still high, but not as high as in Validation Sex. The most significant cost is opportunity cost. Engaging in Transactional Sex as a young woman will likely bring her a man who will commit to her. But in that event, she will have to give up the opportunity for affirmation and validation of her sexual value. She will have to forgo “having fun” and having sex with a number of men who are objectively more attractive than the man offering commitment now. She will have to forgo the longshot chance at locking down one of those more attractive men. She will also have to forgo some “life experiences” including traveling and living a hedonistic “party girl” lifestyle in her youth.
As for risk. she will bear the risk of selecting a low value man. There is the risk that the man she selects early on will never increase in value. But, with some education and discernment, she can manage and minimize these risks.
In both cases, the woman leverages her youth and beauty to obtain either (1) affirmation from very attractive men, and hedonistic fun (Validation Sex) or (2) commitment and security (Transactional Sex).
Lane Changing does happen for two main reasons: (1) because women have been specifically empowered and permitted to pursue that strategy; and, more importantly, (2) because women almost always fail in their attempts to use Validation Sex to extract commitment from a high status man.
When she fails, and after she has paid heavy costs in the form of sexual access to a series of attractive men, she “changes lanes” to pursue a less attractive man for whom the costs won’t be so high, and so that value lost can be recouped, however small the recoupment might be. In this way, she is able to have her cake and eat it too. She can get affirmation and fun from very attractive men until she can’t get that anymore; and then and ONLY then, she can cash them all in for virtually guaranteed commitment and security.
The Sexual Casino – What Happens in Alpha Stays in Alpha (Except When It Doesn’t)
Alpha Fux is a fun, thrilling, drama-charged, high-stakes gamble. Pretty much every woman can try her hand at Alpha Fux, and quite a few do, even if it’s for a short time. But, the female “players” almost always lose. She’s willing to have sex with the attractive man in exchange for a longshot at commitment.
A woman who plays AF can win, but it is extremely rare. In popular media, television shows, songs and movies, women are constantly depicted as beating the odds and winning at AF (A prime example is Julia Roberts’ prostitute winning Richard Gere’s alpha billionaire with a heart of gold in “Pretty Woman”. The book (and soon to be feature film) “Fifty Shades of Grey”. This dynamic – the average, low status, or “loser” woman who “wins” playing AF – is the key reason the film and the book were smash successes.) . The message is the same:
“You’re an average woman. There’s nothing special about you. But if you give those beautiful men your body, there’s at least a chance that one of those beautiful men will ride in on his trusty white steed, sweep you off your feet, and take you to his mansion in the sky. Because after all, low status women — if it happened for HER, it can happen for YOU TOO.” Roll credits.
Admittedly, it is true that occasionally a lucky woman or two actually wins at this game, and snags commitment from the very high status, very sexually desirable man. But for most, the gamble fails, and she ends up paying away ever increasing amounts of her youth, innocence, beauty, and cheery personality. Very high risk, very low odds of payout.
Ladies, chances are that you won’t be one of the very, very few women who wins at Alpha Fux.
So, when she fails at AF, she “changes lanes”, and plays Beta Bucks.
Beta Bucks is not nearly as much fun, but it’s a lower risk, slower game. Most every woman wins something at this game. The game is always there. Someone’s always playing at Beta Bucks, and what’s more, there are always men willing to play that game. She always makes sure she has just enough assets (youth, looks) left over to play Beta Bucks after she loses at AF. Everyone she knows went to play Beta Bucks after trying (and losing at ) AF. And everyone she knows who played Beta Bucks got to take home a consolation prize, and got some more of her “chips” back. So she didn’t get all her assets back, but the House paid her a little something at Beta Bucks.
Do Women Change Lanes? Why?
Women Change Lanes because they can. Our entire society has been completely reordered to allow,encourage, and incentivize women to Change Lanes. Whatever she loses when playing AF, she can recoup at least some of it playing Beta Bucks. At female demand, society has been set up to minimize and downplay AF’s risks, and to maximize the affirmation/validation for the girls who play AF. Society also specifically optimizes what she recoups when she Changes Lanes to Beta Bucks; and makes sure she keeps what she recovers.
The idea that no one ever changes mating strategies just doesn’t hold water. This is clear from simple observation. When given the choice, many women will pursue the most attractive men they can; and will do what it takes for a chance to keep one of them. In today’s society, that price is rapid sex. And a growing number of women are willing to pay that price. Why? Because they know that the risks are high but have been managed and minimized as much as possible. Because they know there’s a (slim) chance they could “win”. Because they know they can always Change Lanes, play Beta Bucks later, and recoup some of their losses. Because they know that if the cost (low validation, repeated failure) ever exceeds their comfort level, they can always Change Lanes and play Beta Bucks. Because they know that when their assets (youth, beauty) become too devalued or depleted to play Alpha Fux, they can always Change Lanes and play Beta Bucks.
Of course there are women who play AF forever, staying at the AF table their entire lives. These are the cougars, the StrongIndependent Career Women, the lawyerc*nts that Roissy so fondly writes about.
There are women who only play Beta Bucks, and get the best prize they can early on from among the Beta Bucks players. These are the devout Christian women; and women who marry in their early 20s and stay married for life.
But remember – the argument is that women never, ever alter their strategies; never, ever Change Lanes. The argument is that no woman ever quits playing AF because she couldn’t afford it anymore and she failed at it. The argument is that no woman ever takes up Beta Bucks after a prior failed strategy because Beta Bucks’ risks and costs are lower, and a payout is virtually guaranteed. The argument is that this never happens, ever, in the entire history of this sexual marketplace. That’s bogus. Every person posting and commenting here knows that it has happened, and can recite from personal recollection an instance of a woman playing – and losing – at AF, and deciding to cash out and play Beta Bucks.
The notion that all these women were “restricted” all along and never really belonged at the AF table to begin with is demonstrably false. It is tantamount to an assertion that changes in female sexual or mating strategies are nonexistent, and that’s bunk, pure and simple.
Don’t believe it when you’re told that a woman never Changes Lanes. Lane Changers are all around us, pursuing their sexual and mating strategies even as you are pursuing yours.
Someone else said it but it bears repeating here. The probable reason for offering the lie that women don’t change lanes is to ensure that more betas don’t transition into more alpha status in their 30s: by denying, burying, the idea that people change lanes, it may lessen the chance that a slow-moving young man becomes a fast mover as he matures. Women want to be assured that ONLY the Naturals, the guys who were gorgeous already at 20, remain as successful with women.
Our entire society has been completely reordered to allow,encourage, and incentivize women to Change Lanes
Money quote.
Why do they change lanes?
They’re tired.
Everyone:
My bad for the glitches; had a bit of trouble getting the formatting and other tech-related stuff while posting Deti’s column up. Now everything’s fixed!
Also: Deti’s done it again – Grand Slam!
Gotta tag this one…
O.
Why do they change lanes?
They’re tired.
The hamster there is as big as the ox that Mongo rode into town on.
I believe her when she says everything below the waist is kaput.
Do women ever consider how the fellas might view this approach? Or is the V just that valuable?
I believe her when she says everything below the waist is kaput.
I am not so sure it is twue.
She still probabably sheisses there.
Ditto.
Women dont want to change lanes though, that’s always the last resource. Beta bucks is a consolation prize at best, and a punishment at worst. Its called “this man will do” or “settling” and it becomes rationalized as “the thing they always wanted” but never for too long before they miss the old lane and blow up things so they can go back to it.
but never for too long before they miss the old lane and blow up things so they can go back to it
The trouble sometimes is that they have lots of miliage, plus lots of ballast in the trunk. A very “used car” at best.
Affirmation and Validation of her sexual value suffices her provided A&V are coming from a man with high-enough sexual value himself (alpha). However, Resources & Commitment are required if the man ISN’T high enough (beta), no matter how highly he rates her.
So, for a woman with high sexual value (the only value under discussion), then she gets A&V from alphas until she can no longer pull those men. She doesn’t want A&V from betas, so she tries to settle for R&C from betas. But betas can be chary too, if not of sex then of R&C; it’s what they have to exchange, after all.
How about a woman of low sexual value? She might have to settle for A&V from betas after all.
#11 Correct. When a former race car is sidelined, from wear and tear, to putt-putting around the slow lane, the very worst thing it could do is try to rev up to get back on the track.
You know what, I have a question to all the fellas reading along.
It’s this:
In light of all that you know about the Red Pill, et al, if a Woman simply leveled with you and told you, upfront, before anything jumped off, what her “N” is, and how it all went down, would you be cool with that or not?
My reason for asking is because I’ve been giving a lot of thought to this idea of “Enthusiastic Consent”, and to be honest I really don’t have any problem with it.
However, there’s no flipside – no “Informed Consent” for the guys. I think every Man has the right to know “what he’s buying” PRIOR to making the deal. This applies to marriage and possibly LTRs ONLY; short term mating, and again, possibly even LTRs where there’s no “papers” involved, wouldn’t count.
How would you feel about this, fellas?
Talk to me…
O.
I have an acquaintance, actually an ex of an alpha friend of mine, who after a few drinks not long back offered up some insight into a number of things.
She laments the fact that during college she always had a boyfriend (See: boyfriends are BORING). Because all of her friends got to have sex with lotsa cocks (the actual PRIZE). Then she “ended up” married fairly young, to a greater beta that turned out to have some boring industrialist job (petro-engineer) that forced her to live in, gasp, Canada! Amicable divorce at 32. Just in time to hit the carousel. Which she did. With enthusiasm.
She initially met my alpha friend through her roommate (which he had banged in a no-strings deal a couple years prior). FF couple of years. Met him again at a bar (I was with him). He took her home that night. She converted a ONS into a two-year (on and off) actual relationship! Apparently she got over her issues with him having banged her roomie. For real.
He got hot tail, she got hot Alpha, but kept on her party-girl ways. He grew tired of ‘managing her’ [other side of the sword of hot sexy party-girl who all the guys want to bang: all the guys want to bang her] and could not compute her simultaneous desire to trade on her sexuality for attention from men, have commitment from a top male, employ herself in lowly retail positions, and her love of sushi and travel. Writing: meet wall.
They parted ways. She was ‘devastated’. He was too, but later relieved (FTOW). She’s a full-blown Alpha widow. FF couple more years. She and I are chatting at a party. She’d just moved back to town after an unsuccessful resettlement in LA. “Its just too expensive” Read: competitive. Still regrets not having slutted it up when she was young. Has to slut it up in her 30’s. I wonder what’s the difference. Rhetorical. She “doesn’t go out as much”. Still looking for her Alpha, but decidedly “ready to settle down”. Really likes it here better anyhow.
She told me she’s already got her cupid profile up and running but finds it tricky to date because she doesn’t have a house (or job) yet (she’s living with friends in the suburbs) and all of these “players and old guys keep blowing up her inbox.” Players=bad. Old guys=creepy. Its hard to “meet nice guys; its not like when we were younger.” We?
She’s beautiful. Gregarious. She’s “looking”. She wants to be married. She will get her Beta Bux. Eventually.
The fellas who get stuck with the lane-changer might end up somewhat satisfied, but only if women mean it when they state their vows.
But how often can we count on that in the modern age?
#14 I would be sehr cool with a woman telling me her N prior to getting serious. Naturally I reserve the right to judging her N too high to bother getting serious, but that’s cool.
How about a woman of low sexual value? She might have to settle for A&V from betas after all.
The horror of it all…
I suppose that if two conditions are met…
Condition 1: A significant shift or psychology burn out state occurs in which a former path (education and career focus) meets a new mandate (fertility/family priority > career priority). Mate qualities which are a great fit for a woman with education and career focus may be very different from those of a woman who is focused on raising a family. The current script is kind of schizo about this.
The degree to which a woman is caught unaware by a priority shift of this type (and her perceived fertility level at the time of the shift) will show up in the speed and violence with which she swerves or attempts to swerve into different lanes. For instance, a 20 year old who knows that she wants to be an SAHM and to have two or three kids by 30 may have no need to change lanes, while a female corporate attorney who hits a massive burn out point at age 35 may be capable of a very dramatic and dangerous swerve attempt.
I would not think that any of this is controversial. Insofar as an aggressive “Lean In” position becomes dominant and the age of marriage creeps up, the lane changing activities will probably be more pronounced.
Condition 2: Female granting of sexual access to males shows inherent discriminatory pricing practices in effect. Let’s say that to gain sex a man has to have a total of at least 15 special fuck-feature units on offer. Perhaps a very rough statistical decomposition of these features might be Hotness, Provisioning Resources, and Commitment/Emotional Intimacy.
…then the stage is set for lane-switching (of sorts) to take place.
Let’s say that for the man to gain sex in this simple model, H + PR + C/EI has to = minimum 15 points.
…but points are not equally distributed among men: a very Hot guy quite reasonably needs lower PR and lower EI to meet the required 15 units than would an average looking guy with average wealth (he might need to demonstrate almost maximum C/EI in order to gain sexual access).
Natural lane-changing would simply occur as Conditions 1 and 2 interact with real-world experiences and trial-and-error. It probably is just common sense from a female POV, but it’s deeply problematic from a male standpoint because we don’t just consider the sexual act in itself; we consider how many resources were used up in order to gain the sex and which package of traits the guy displayed. Validation sex in which a man gets sex for high hotness and lower commitment is considered more alpha/dominant/emotionally pleasing than is transactional sex in which the man must expend resources.
Even though two guys may have met or exceeded the same 15 unit hypothetical threshold, the manner in which the threshold was met or exceeded is very important to us, and we generally feel saddened and resentful if the previous guy got sex quickly because he was hawt while we had to commit more. We feel that this makes the other guy more of a man or conqueror or stud racehorse in some primal way that may be difficult for many women to understand.
Also, I know that opinions vary on this, but I don’t think the woman is a pinata or equivalent and she becomes less of a human being or depreciates in some way as her N goes up.
The real problem, from my POV, is that with increased N comes this uneasiness about previous price discrimination. I think that most of us would be willing to pay a high price as long as it is still lower than what the other guy(s) paid.
@Bastiat 19:
I suppose the thing for me is, what’s the value add at that point? This is a rhetorical question because, by just taking a casual look around any locale at any time, clearly there’s no shortage of guys out there who obviously do think there’s a hella value add to situations like these, i.e., more than willing to step up to be “Plan B Guy”.
Fair enough. I can respect their choice and their decision.
But what I’m trying to understand is, and this is for those ladies out there who say things like how they’ve gained “experience” and have “changed” from when they were years ago, et al. Ok, fine – what is Plan B Guy getting that’s just as good as Plan A Guy? Not even better – just just as good?
I’ve actually put those question to a number of ladies in unscientific fashion, and as you might suspect, I didn’t get a great many straight answers, LOL…
O.
#19 ” some primal way that may be difficult for many women to understand.” Yes, but it is interesting that it is difficult for women to understand. I almost glimpse why it makes evolutionary sense to protect women from understanding their own motivations, but why would it benefit women to misunderstand men?
The real problem, from my POV, is that with increased N comes this uneasiness about previous price discrimination.
That would be an issue, but I think the biggest would be some measure of alpha-widowdom.
@JF12:
I think the answer to your question lies in the fact that the sexual strategies of the sexes, when you really stop to think about it, are at fundamental cross purposes to each other. It would make sense to be focused on one’s own mating strategies first and foremost; after all, if you don’t look out for that, you significantly lower your chances to mate and to get the most out of the mating experience/get the best mate you can acquire.
O.
@FB:
Yea, “Alpha Widowdom” is also a real thing, and something else that I’m going to have to sitdown and give a full treatment to at some point…you guys keep giving me so many great ideas!
O.
Bastiat Blogger says:
“We feel that this makes the other guy more of a man or conqueror or stud racehorse in some primal way that may be difficult for many women to understand.”
I can’t say that works to explain my distaste. It’s not the other guy was a conqueror and I wasn’t. I understand hierarchy, maybe it’s the German ancestry. Rather it’s the obvious lack of respect for my resources, and her presumption of entitlement to my then uncompensated labor. It’s the obviously temporary nature of the lane change. It’s the attitude that she’s doing me a favor.
Also flight risk (especially in an environment with perverse incentives).
I actually think both sexes do a sort of flight risk calculation when they are choosing a spouse.
I actually think both sexes do a sort of flight risk calculation when they are choosing a spouse.
I always plan an escape route well in advance.
@taz, your example is interesting insofar as its bbaf instead of the other way around… It maybe it will be bbafbb?
Do men “change lanes?” Is there an equvelant male pattern? Just curious.,.
#26 so you’re firmly in the uneasiness about “price discrimination” category, instead of uneasiness about “alpha-widowhood”. I don’t know where to place myself. I try to imagine myself getting serious with a high N woman, but I can’t do it. It seems too ridiculous. But, I guess it would be “price discrimination”, assuming that the reason I was marrying her was she was insisting on it.
But, seriously, no matter if it is funny, I find it easier to imagine a high N woman insisting on not getting married.
#29 The male equivalent is the most common relationship fantasy of women. Women love to imagine an alpha male, a fast-lane male, finally slowing down and deciding to get hitched. But the genders are not symmetrical. Hence the fact that men are repulsed by afbb is difficult for women to understand, because of projection.
Isn’t it great that there are so few psychological touchstones required to understand self-deceptions? There’s a half-dozen big ones, and maybe a half-dozen others.
jf12 says:
“I try to imagine myself getting serious with a high N woman, but I can’t do it.”
I never had the luxury to assume I wouldn’t.
#29
“Do men “change lanes?” Is there an equvelant male pattern? Just curious.,.”
I have. My first relationship lasted a decade and I took it seriously and, in hindsight, was mature and aware enough of the risks of the game I was told to play. Suddenly, she was invited to the Bahamas by a stranger and left without notice. Last I heard, her friends were circulating a story of the outcome over some social network; the guy she ran off with tried to force himself on her, the poor dear.
My experiences with the fairer gender following this circus were less than stellar. Meanwhile my parents split up due to bed death, among other things.
I changed lanes around that time, not taking anything that came along very seriously. Or taking it seriously enough to enjoy the temporal nature of it all. But the head games wore me down and I eventually changed lanes again and “retired.” All before the age of 35.
Not sure if that’s the type of answer you were looking for. Just another anecdote for you all.
I don’t think the woman is a pinata or equivalent and she becomes less of a human being or depreciates in some way as her N goes up
Pinata, huh? Apt analogy.
why it makes evolutionary sense to protect women from understanding their own motivations,
The evil patriarchy made that mostly irrelevant.
Do men “change lanes?” Is there an equvelant male pattern?
As far as I can tell, this is it,
http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.com/2008/10/yes-men-do-leave-market.html?m=1
#34 “Out of whack? I’ll have you know I’ve been IN whack a long time, mister.”
#32 I’ve rubbed shoulders with some, but they’ve just been friends of sorts. The thought of rubbing other body parts wouldn’t have even crossed my mind, honestly.
I have had that happen.once. I was flat out told ” I have made mistakes with my love life and have had __. Some where LTR, and some FWB.” That number was too high for me, so I turned down the opportunity for a relationship ( this was a few years ago ) but I respected the honesty and forthright courage it took to say that.
#36 So, CaptainCapitalism noticed a sudden change in mgtow prior to 2008. More than a marriage strike, a strike against striking out so many times with women. So much so that huge numbers of men seem to greatly prefer
1. Going fishing with fishing friends, golfing with golfing friends.
2. Going to baseball games and cheering with baseball friends.
3. Staying home and playing Xbox with Xbox friends.
than bothering to try any more with women.
What are the women offering?
The male equivalent fantasy is probably being a swordsman for decades and then nimbly cashing in your chips just in time and, perhaps aided by some Just For Men and Viagra, landing on a much-younger, independently wealthy Lara Croft for a monogamous high-sex/high-companionship relationship filled with sailboat cruising vacations, hiking in the Jura, growing an impressive beard, etc.
@ 33 yes, that is sort of what I was wondering. I am trying to think back on some of my male friends paths for possible patterns too. Like in one life stage is a certain “type” of woman sought and at another phase a different “type?” A male lane change? Not sure if there even is an alpha/beta equivelant typecasting (for lack of a better word) for women or if so what it would be… Aka the gal every guy wants, the gal guys settle for? (if the pattern went that way, not saying it does.) The flip of the alpha/beta as well as afbb “strategy” but in male form?
I can’t think of one offhand, maybe there isn’t one, but I often ask that question about all kinds of topics (biz/art/parenting/relationships/etc) — is there a flip to this? And if so what? And does that flip illuminate the topic more or in a different way or provide additional understanding? Often it can.
My brain is too tired at the moment to manage the mental gumnastics but I will ponder it and am curious to hear what others think.
@Bloom
“…your example is interesting insofar as its bbaf instead of the other way around… It maybe it will be bbafbb?
Haha, yeah for her it is kind of the bbafbb. Granted, I think the allure of AF and the approaching wall was what got her to scuttle the marriage. I see it as the power of the narrative that tells women that this “experience” not only holds great value for them, but also holds virtually no risk/cost to her future goals; that it is null relative to what men want or value in their own ideas of the future.
Her prior life in serial monogamy is seen as something that led to her missing out, which is strange because even if we are made to believe this “experience” is valuable for her as a future partner, wouldn’t experience in actual monogamy be more useful/valuable than that of the carousel?
So it seems to be, really, that the message is indeed about self-indulgence, fun, and fux. She’s bummed because she can’t get guys – even for fux, that are as hot/alpha as the ones that her friends may have been bedding when they were younger. Ripcord remorse.
Still, the message is powerful enough to convince a full-grown woman with a lot of life under her belt that there are virtually no costs associated with hooking-up. That the option of BB is a kind of perpetual call option, inspiring her to enter the hooking up game in her 30’s. Marriage will always be on the table when she wants it.
Then she starts slamming into some of the truths. Then reluctantly re-entering a much more competitive marriage market as an older women with a lot fewer options. And IDK her well enough, but I know my alpha buddy doesn’t care about things like N. But then he’s a bit of a narcissist, so women are basically highly-advanced fucktoys to him. Other men, the BB guys, are not going to have N>100 like my buddy, so she just might find those hidden costs being presented to her when she’s looking to transact. That makes women angry.
Bloom I’ve seen a lot of cases where the woman was involved in a ltr and tried like mad to get the man to commit to marriage without success. The man usually claimed he wasnt ready to settle down or that he didnt believe in marriage. But once they broke up (occasionally before they broke up) he found someone else and was engaged very quickly after to the other woman.
@ bastit anything’s possible! Don’t forget to write us of your adventures
O: what jf12 said. I disagree with BB. But of course I would: he’s a player and I’m a beta.
@ taz I have a friend considering a similar lane change at 37 from 16+ year married sahm to single. I have been trying to illuminate her to the likely red pill reality of that to counter her rosy colored glasses version that it would be better/easier/more fulfilling or whatever. The grass isn’t always greener. Try watering the grass you got, that’s been my advice.
“Do men “change lanes?” Is there an equvelant male pattern? Just curious.,.”
I can’t speak for the young guys, the guys in the throws of this crazy SMP. But my peer group, friends from growing up, college and work, were all pretty much taught to go build something. School, work hard, save money, think of the future.
Part of the the “lie” beta men talk about is that following this message was supposed to be the key to the city. Be nice, work hard, provide for your future family and she will show up, so to say. Do these things and women will love you. Happily ever.
The reality is that in terms of social expectations/credibility and male sexual and marital value in the eyes of women, this is still the case. A man’s only plan B is to not play the game. Not quite the same thing as a lane change. Not quite as conducive to patterns. Unless you count men leaving the market. There is only one lane for men: a highway with a long onramp. Changing lanes amounts to exiting the highway. There is no real equivalent.
Women change lanes because they have two (or more) lanes already in play. The differences are on the margin and there are trade-offs, but sex is available, commitment is available, marriage is available to most women. Most women just don’t like the tradeoffs relative to whats in the current lane (sex with more attractive men.)
The lanes are there because feminism, our culture, bifurcated these things. Women wanted to exercise options without closing doors because thats how they envisioned men had it. The fact that those are only apex men is ignored regularly.
Most men aren’t even in a lane. They must build their way to the onramp first. Then, and only then, can they consider options. A man spends time working to just get on the road, time on the road working to build his value, and then at some point he decides to marry or not.
The alpha lane change, like Bastiat notes (sign me up for that), is just a really rare thing. Breaking the alpha. Even if the alpha swordsman retires (changes lanes) and settles down to marry, he is going to really have his pick of women (within reason) and thus his marriage is still not going to look like the average beta bux marriage. Usually the alpha does this because the only thing he cannot get on his own are children. Something even women can regularly get without changing much at all.
@ Liz I have seen that too, I wonder if there is something to that… “Stages” of readiness for a ltr in men vs playing the options… Hummm… Men are not as constrained in childbearing as women, so there isn’t a “ticking clock” factor. And that also includes if reproduction is a driver in either afbb or the male version or if its actually another driver or there may even be several… (In the female example reproduction, plus age and a changing market, plus economics, plus changing value set, plus life experience, plus “just getting tired” (jk), etc.)
Hamstering on it a bit
@Bloom42
I think those changes in types of women have more to do with men following the path of least resistance WRT sex and how that changes according to the rise of their SMV over time. Men have to work to build options, to build a sense of abundance (most never do). In absence of that, they are often getting the aggressive women or women of otherwise “different” character than those they might actively pursue and choose down the road.
“Try watering the grass you got, that’s been my advice.”
Almost always a better option in the long run. She’d better be into 50 y/o guys. And fit. And sane. I’ll stop there.
@taz yes, that makes sense re long on ramp. Good analogy.
Is there an equivalent in women between alpha and beta, do you think?
Re: a beta player, and changing. Although a beta I was, admittedly, a particularly *discriminating* kind of beta. I wasn’t about to put up with being treated badly in a relationship by a low-class high-N woman; as long as I expected to be treated badly then I insisted she be a high-class low-N woman. I’m having a bit of revelation here, so, please excuse the jumble.
Since alpha males have never had to learn lovemaking skillz, uniformly being takers rather than givers, beta males tend to be better in bed. And we tend to make better sandwiches, too. So even though women THINK they don’t want our Affirmation and Validation in exchange for the women’s sex, it could well be that experienced women with resources realize that there’s nothing better than a beta male.
So what, oh what, is a *picky* beta male with high class tastes supposed to do, surrounded by inelegant boring women with their own money? He won’t be their clown, doesn’t feel like buying them gifts, really can’t see himself doing the Resources and Commitment thing with any *one* of them, emphasis on one, wrongly imagining that the Resources would necessarily be flowing from him.
Could he see himself *getting* gifts from women? Sure, why not. He is good looking enough, connected enough, charming enough IF he felt like playing that part. Could he be made to feel that playing that part was worth his while, for example if he were paid enough to act interested? I say yes. Sure, there will come a day when youth will pass away, but there are Zsa Zsas still around.
And I am by no means an economist but something I have heard said there about markets might fit. Do the opposite of what everyone else is doing. Everyone’s buying tech? Sell tech. Everyone rushing into the housing market? Sell or wait. Another way to ponder this. And some have said that already, skip the af part, forgo the trend. It’s what I will be advising my girls!
Who makes the roads roll?
As I said in the other thread, I don’t think AFBB or “lane changing” is a conscious choice or strategy. As others have said, I think in most cases the girls actually believe:
a) The party years were actually a positve experience, and a key in developing her into who she is in present day. Without them, she’d be “incomplete” in some way.
b) It’s not something anyone will judge her for or care about.
Of course that’s all BS, but I can muster some sympathy, seeing that they’ve basically been lied to throughout their formative years. It’s a shitty situation for everybody.
And if I may, something else popped into my mind. Part of what makes the price distribution portion even more valid, is when the change took place in correlation to where that man was in that time period. To share another anecdotal story, I was speaking to someone that tried, and failed, AFBB. Out comes the rationalization of ” it made me who I am, blah blah blah” and I want a good man. My response ” you don’t deserve a good man, based off of your prior actions indicate”
What many women don’t understand is they suffer from what’s known here as the apex fallacy. When young and hot, she knew who were the good men she claimed to want. She just wasn’t interested in them cause they weren’t hot or alpha for her. So she, like many ladies, decided to eschew the good men, in favor of being #4 in some hot fratboys harem. She gets kicked out of the harem after some time, just to hop into bed with the same type of douche. Fast Forward and she decides to find the beta, who was essentially stuck in a sexual desert for so long, who will likely take what he can get and be grateful to have it. Hearing such horrible tactics is what causes such resentment and anger in many many men. To essentially be told ” you’re not good enough for me in my prime, but when I can’t get what I truly want anymore, ill begrudgingly give you a shot. You best be grateful for any scraps you get too” would cause any self respecting to burst with rage. The entitlement is that attitude is staggering to say the least and causes much of the friction we see today.
Just my 2 pennies
BB’s analysis rings true. Just change the analysis to cars. Assume cars are bestowed heterogeneously with two traits, storage size and fuel capacity. Assume all buyers have identical purchasing power. On the one hand, you have a Toyota Camry, on the other a Chevy Silverado. It only makes sense that the 20-something crowd would prefer the Camry and as the cohort ages the Silverado will have an increasing demand.
This can result in wild price fluctuations of both, especially if the cohort ages and therefore can bid up the price, supply runs into shortages or can be scaled, etc. Metrics like “10% more people want a Silverado” don’t mean anything without the underlying market analysis behind it: that could mean a vast increase in price or it could actually mean a decrease in price assuming the Silverado manufacturer can achieve huge returns to scale (and is unable to exploit price discrimination).
The suggestion that NO Lane-Changing occurs generally implies fixed market conditions, period, throughout all time. Does that sound reasonable? No.
As for whether men lane-change: all people “lane change.” We all adjust our life goals and direction as we mature and gain more experiences and are burdened with additional responsibilities.
The important question, relationship-wise, is whether you can offer a superior relationship. 18 year old ADBG could….uhhhh…talk to you about anime. 27 year old ADBG can fix you a drink, cook you a turkey, take you dancing, or play you a song.
It appears that most women “learn” rather than “grow.” Mostly they learn what they don’t want and they learn not to cause quite as much drama as a teenage girl. That is not the same as improving yourself for a man. I should not have to teach my fiancé how to season a cast iron pot and I should not have to tell my close female friend how to sauté veggies. That indicates a waste of 10 years.
*Risk Disclaimed: I’m not saying that the Dos Equis/007 fantasy is realistic; it’s probably about as realistic as the aristocratic vampire/Christian Grey fantasy is for women.*
Among the very few guys I have seen who pulled it off semi-proficiently were two different tenured professors who had been (in my view, but I’m old-fashioned about this) abusing their positions for years while the school pretty much ignored it. Both guys were unusually well set-up, infrastructure and logistics-wise, to scout for talent, exploit some weird Daddy Fantasy/temporary status advantages that they enjoyed, and so on. I’m not sure how the marriages will work out.
Bloom,
Seems like interesting advice! Your young daughters certainly would not want to “buy in” at the minimum sex-price!
Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble…
#32 Ok I’ll try to imagine it, even though it is the mental equivalent of finding the Grim Reaper next to your bed and trying to cozy up to him.
“Uh, hi, high-N woman. Um, come here often, do you?” Ok, so we’ll skip the silly preliminaries. Assume I’ve fallen in love with a fallen woman, and she wants to get married.
1. I think if I’m in love then nothing else matters. You could tell me anything about her and it would only add to the heap of things I love about her.
2. If I’m not in love then I wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole. (And I’ve got two, both recently used on bedding bream with a little success.)
So, the real question is the process by which I fell in love with a high-N woman.
And as far as avoiding girls with high N, casual histories, etc…
From my perspective, I don’t even really care about risk factors, AFBB, etc…
Quite frankly, the thought of a girl I’m committed to having a high N or casual past just disgusts me on some visceral and subconscious level. And that by itself is enough for me to move on.
Regardless of how many other great qualities she brings to the table, it would always be a sore spot in my mind, there would always be some sense of embarassment, and there would be some piece of respect missing that she could never fully get back.
It’s important to me that I can both respect and be proud of my wife. Even if she’s perfect in every other way, a high N or significant casual history would make that impossible.
As far as men changing lanes, I’m sure it happens in some cases, but as others have said it’s rare for the simple fact that most men don’t have more than one lane to choose from in their formative years.
I guess the most prominent examples would be the player “retiring” in his 30s or 40s, and the former nice guys who after years of no success decide to go the player route in their late 20s early 30s when they get a status spike.
Bloom,
Technically, There can’t be an alpha/bets dynaminc among human females. To get down to it, there shouldn’t be among human males. Among the observaers of wildlife, it’s the alphas who get to reproduce. While human mating is devolving from assortive mating to a tournament social model, it’s not quite there yet.
Among humans, females always had the opportunity to breed. What is at issue is the quality with whom they breed. Now, there might be gradients in the hierarchy of the herd.
Wolves can have beta females. In a pack, only the alpha couple breeds.
Notice that the chicks are only interested in the topic of lane changing alphas.
And as for alpha/beta with women, it really doesn’t equate…
When people talk about alpha females, they’re usually discussing the hard charging, type A, socially powerful women. But that’s not what we mean here when we talk about SMP alphas. The closest equivalent would be the hottest girls who can secure commitment from the guys in high demand.
re: guys lane chaning… you likely won’t see the same kind of lane changing with guys as you do with girls… As a guy, if you can get sex from a girl, you can usually get commitment too if you want it. Doesn’t work that way if you switch the genders.
So when a player wants to “retire”, it’s likely he won’t have to switch the kind of women he targets. He just switches his answer to “yes” regarding commitment, and likely could have at any point prior to it.
A short story for jf12
Shock Whore Strange Love
– How I learned to stop worrying and love the N
It must have been 1990 I was living a fraternity house. Fall semester a party. I meet a cute freshman. Run really bad game which consists of an invitation to show her my aquarium (I didn’t have on). We’re ten feet from my room, and one of the guys tells me it’s my turn to watch the door. I offered him $20 to get out of it. No dice.
I spend the next hour watching the door instead of collecting N2 for myself. When that was over I took my forlorn hope and went on a hunt for this girl. Turns out whilst I watched the door she managed to get laid. I must admit I did feel a bit cheated.
By the end of the evening, this girl, who none of us had known, managed to get inseminated 5!, FIVE!, 5 times. That we know of. From that point on I always assume an N3* or higher, and adjust for age.
*as a nice guy the my assumption grants the benefit of the doubt rather than assuming N5 as would be congruent with the story.
Obsidian,
Upthread, you wanted the guys to respond about their intendeds revealing their number count. I don’t think they would be truthful. There is a well known commenter who did ask and she responded. Later, while being attended to by paramedics, she gave a different number. I think the commenter is madder about the fact that she did lie. You don’t tell lies to people you respect.
I”ve never gotten close enough to ask about N count but, I have heard marital histories. The last three gals had five husbands. Sheesh!
Brain hurts. Too much red pill. Overload. System shutdown.
And Bastit relax, not going to throw dishes at you (yet!) no need for disclaimers. We are all well aware of this Lara Croft fantasy thing. It’s kind of a pink elephant…
As a guy, if you can get sex from a girl, you can usually get commitment too if you want it.
Seems like, from what I have read, most younger (<30) guys today would deny this.
14 Obsidian
First comes the calculation:
She gave me an N, so we do the Normal Calculation:
TrueN = ToldN x 2
Wait, you spotted 1 or 2 red slut flags? Now we do the Red Flag Calculation:
TrueN = ToldN x 3
Let’s see, what’s left. . . OUCH ! The Slut Alarm is blasting. Covers you ears and do the Slut Alarm Calculation:
TrueN = ToldN x 5
We are almost done. That is because human experience is variable and we have to give ranges to each calculation to account for that. Normal Calculations use a 2 – 3 multiplier. Red Flag Calculations use a 3 -5 multiplier. Slut Alarm Calculation uses a 5 – 1,000 multiplier.
So good luck with the truth Obi.
@64 (hucks pots and pans, maybe a knife. Oops!)
Bloom,
You really like Farm Boy!
@Nekros 56
True enough but so easily sidestepped by labeling as “sour grapes” and dismissing w/o another thought. Sometimes it is sour grapes, though I think most women of reasonable histories could avoid kindling that resentment if they weren’t so self-absorbed, busy imbibing the fallacious fem-sexpozzie kool aid. Or were allowed to believe what they know in their hearts.
In reality, her N is my problem. Mine to accept, “get over”, ignore, whatever. Can’t un-bang. I have to look at the whole package, my options, my endgame, my personal values/morals/beliefs, and fish or cut bait.
The hardest part is in discovery; at what point all of these things, context, attraction, values, etc. come to light relative to things like history – and specifics like N and context of N. And of course, if we are given reason to quantify at all. I save a lot of the N trouble because I just don’t engage with women who give me reason to believe they are lane changers of the highest order. My LTR’s have been easy in this regard. Histories were short, above board, and the women had very few red flags. I wasn’t pulling them out of clubs either.
But these days, this is not so easy. The vulgar, hookup culture, the go-girl stuff, and the pluralistic ignorance (“I guess this is just how it is”) is driving a lot more restricted women into the fray. They see the top men just making hay and think “if they (men) can do it, so can I”.
So now, I really want to say things like, if you have done things like “dated” via Tinder, I’m going to assume there is an N there waiting down the road that will probably scuttle this ship. So I am keeping expectations exceedingly low.
IME, if it eats away at you, this will not ebb as your feelings and investment in her build. Maybe for some men, love overcomes, is blind. IDK. I think for me love can indeed cut through a lot. But there is always a ceiling. Or I’ve never been in love.
Depends on that endgame too. I don’t need to get married and have kids, I’d like to, but I’m not going to plow forward based on that want like some kind of blinders. So high N= ripcord. I know myself in this regard. I get all existential. I am what I am.
The only thing I am noodling is whether or not I chase that rabbit myself. Discover if building my own astronomical N will assuage some of that, even-up the galactic scales of hedonistic skin sessions. Or align my view of intimacy with the market. (No big deal). Set the bar at: not getting Herpes or AIDS. Its not lake racking it isn’t right there for my taking. Lucky me, I guess.
But I’m with Jimmy. All else, I just find high N to be gross, unattractive at the deepest level.
@ Bloom #29
Alphas tend to change lanes. AFBB becomes “sluts are for fun, good girls are for marrying”. Alphas change lanes by doing the whole “sow your wild oats before you settle down” thing.
The difference is that “good girls” don’t seem to mind so much about it. In fact, it’s rather a mark of pride that he pumped and dumped all those other women but not her e.g. the “I reformed the bad boy” fantasy.
You really like Farm Boy!
Perhaps so. My sister always told me that when a girl gives you a hard time, that she likes you.
Taz,
You said it better than I could. Agree 100%.
BTW, have you been a regular commenter anywhere else? I don’t recall reading anything from you before, but you’ve had a ton of quality stuff on here as of late.
(hucks pots and pans, maybe a knife
My older sister once got mad at me and started to repeatedly ram me. Since I am very large, she just bounced off me. I started laughing, which just made her even madder.
Short answer: women are no physical match for guys. But don’t let feminists in on that secret.
Re: Bastiat Blogger’s viewpoint vs. Escoffier’s/jf12’s viewpoint.
I have a little bit of both. I find high-N disgusting. But independent of this, I have a hatred for price-discrimination. And this hatred will apply to all instances of price-discrimination, (including N=1 price-discrimination i.e. “alpha widow”, or even potentially N=0 price discrimination i.e. “carousel watcher”).
Farm Boy,
Feminists are fully aware of it and have managed to perform social jiu-jitsu with it. A man attempting to defend himself will get hauled off to the hoosegal. We’ve seen enough videos.
Sorry to get off topic.
“Do men change lanes?”
Not that I have but, it wouldn’t surprise me if exceptional men can employ long or short term tactics that he would tailor to the woman that he is considering.
Take away the pill and all of this is moot, beta bucks is the default.
Women don’t change lanes voluntarily, they are forced in that position by their lower SMV and increasingly rarer Alpha fcks.
In the past work commitments and financial responsibilities limited Alpha prowling and most of it was situational (work environment or ad hoc) but the advent of social media (like tinder) has made it easier and extended the shelf life of AFs even further. Thirty five is the new 28.
Worse yet it has opened up a new paradigm, holding ‘dual lanes’, making simultaneous beta commitment and alpha spice on the side much easier.
About price discrimination, years ago, someone pointed out to me that used car values are more affected by mileage than age. Ladies, take heed.
@ 77 and your point is?
and your point is?
I don’t get too worked up when women get mad at me.
And being able to get sex from a girl is a necessary but not always sufficient condition for getting commitment.
Do women do commitment?
About commitment from women, should I link the posts Dalrock has done on Jenny Erikson? The threads all run into the hundreds.
I have been accused of being a “terrified bear”. This should frighten anyone.
#75 “My sister always told me that when a girl gives you a hard time, that she likes you.” All women have always told me this too. It was the first big thing I disbelieved, after I noticed that girls treated alpha males so nicely.
@ 83 ah I see. Got it. Good!
@ 85 and 86 as with all situations the answer is some. Do men do commitment? Some. Fuzzie, I am with you. This is terrifying. I don’t know who Jenny erikson is but will look it up… If all this is part of a larger discussion on other sites I am not following that, I can hardly keep up w this!
Also fuzzie I am not up on what research says is typical primate mating behavior but I will have to look into that. Jane Goodall and Diane cosset surely must haveade note if it (better have!) as if horses or wolves or chickens (which I have direct daily observation of, it’s a harem thing) have any bearing perhaps, but probably more so the chimps and gorillas? I will read up.
Diane Fossey, autocorrect. Darn phone…
#66 Great story! Yes, it turns out for a whole lot of women, even from your generation and my generation and maybe somewhat earlier (although no Pill, no abortion before mine), the whole concept of Next! has an entirely different connotation than we give it usually. Remember I used to counsel teens, mostly urban teens who got picked up in the correctional system. I’m going to make up a number which will be accurate, that about 10% of women who have stayed away from their parents for extended periods of time (read: more than a few full months, to include several ovulations) while young (e.g. late teens. Note the population from which this 10% is drawn does include all college girls) have had more than a handful of men in one day more than once, but very few will admit it. Some will laught it off as a fantasy or dream they had, others will say “I made out with a random guy when I was drunk. So what. Made out. A random guy.” But in reality the vast majority of those 10% of women will “merely” have pulled a train or two or three like your would-be conquest (for wannabe saints who pretend not to know, a train is when a woman has sex with a whole bunch of guys one right after the other. You could call it sloppy half-dozens), but a not insignficant percentage will have had a gangbang, literally having sex with a whole bunch of guys simultaneously. Interestingly, psychologically, many, maybe most, of the girls who pulled a train and admit it will have recalled it as a gangbang instead of a train. For whatever reason. Maybe a girl think “Five penises for me!” and gets kind of fixated on the near-simultaneity.
I happened to be browsing through Yelp reviews of a Radio Shack and an interesting review caught my eye. This was the first paragraph:
Bloom,
All this discussion about assortive and tournament social orders is speculation. It is presumed that, in prehistoric times, mankind went from a tournament model to an assortive mating model. I can’t think of a way to prove it and I doubt anyone will.
The tournament social order would approximate what happens with horses in the wild. Stallions compete and it’s winner takes all.
The assortive mating model is what we presume humanity does. Most people will pair off and within their social rank.
The conversion from tournament to assortive had to happen some time before agriculture, while we still hunter gatherers. Otherwise, agriculture couldn’t have happened.
Bloom,
The only interesting thing that might relate to humans from primate research is something Karen Straughn went into in one of her youtube videos. Beta male babbons got friendly with females and would bring them food and groom them. In response to this investment, well above what the alpha could provide, when they went into estrus, the females would “ditch” the mate guarding alpha and find the beta.
This may be the origin of assortive mating and monogamy.
I don’t think Jane Goodall or Diane Fossey would have stuff that’s so relavent to human behavior.
@ nemesis that’s interesting! So maybe theres outside the red pill proof that cads are alive and well (at least sometimes.)
@ fuzzie, true there is a lot that will never be known. My theory is women, the young, and old lived in a communal group. Men hunted and protected and returned to mate, drop off resources, and head out. We are basing some of this discussion on many modern day factors — being able to use birth control, paternity testing, even understanding that mating and offspring are correlated. In Tahiti, for example, this was not 1+1=2. So there was little monogamy or patriarchy or worry about it even. Sex happened. Kids happened. It worked in that small slice of time and limited area. I am not advocating that as a solution, obviously, just putting a whole other (known) paradigm out there.
We view the world through the lens we are largely born into and told Is “the way it is.” But it is a social norm, a grain of sand in the sea of time, one vector, not an absolute. Although most believe it to be, not being able to consider otherwise.
Getting a bit existential here, admitted, but we have spent several days examining the change lanes model between star child, blue pill, afbb, and this. We may never know. Is it genetic, biological, selfish, fe/male slutdom, any combo of the above? Who knows.
But to assume today’s knowns on ancient drivers may be an exercise in futility ( not that today’s norms are working, either, agreed.) worthy discussion. Any absolutes? Comes down to a case by case basis between to consenting adults. I can only control myself. And my choice of partner. And a few other factors wi less than a 500 foot radius of my home. And little else.
#94 close but not close enough. The young men were made to go off hunting, led by the old man whose turn it was to lead the young men. The other old men stayed back with the women and children.
@ Bloom
It’s amazing how there is a flood of red pill information out there if you simply read in between the lines. The red pill simply puts everything together in a well-packaged overarching theory.
The problem is that many people are incapable of cognitive structuring and miss the forest for the trees due to their piecemeal processing.
It’s just
@jf 12, that is a good point. At what age young men went primarily from a woman’s world (mom) into a man’s (dad) is unknown. And a rite of passage lost today in out post hunter gatherer, post agrarian, post industrial, post post industrial etc world. Feminism is again a small component of all of that, add in Judea Christian and puritanical then what-not thinking, on top of a melting pot of world cultures and philosophies, shake well, voila! Who the fuck knows. Not to make light of it…. We are all wandering among the smoking wreckage…
Oh and let’s not forget the whole tribal/monarchy/democracy/capitalism layer, govt. influence.
Re: my #90. And all the women reading this are thinking “Ha! Only 10%? If only he knew! And from what my friends say it WAS gangbangs, not trains.”
@ jf 12 I have no experience in this area, thus nothing to add. I have been offered the invite to participate in such activities but I have always thought it way too much drama and have passed on it. It never seems to work out well.
@Jimmy.
Thanks. I’ve been around for a few years, other places including the one that led to this one. (I go by Tasmin but cut it to nickname Taz out of laziness since the reply fields don’t stay populated any longer). I drop in on a few of the other places, but usually don’t comment. So I save my manifesto carpet bombing for here. To give J4G that good old American GMO corn-fed girth.
I remember you from at least one other place. Glad to see you here.
Sir Nemesis
Funny/bizarre. You know what though? Yelp is an interesting study in the solipsistic tendencies, or call it writing/reviewing style of women vs men in how they structure the reviews.
While both men and women are shuffling around in the shallows of the social media spillover (by design) of yelp, women seem particularly gifted at this. Yelp has encouraged the devolution into basically just one more facebook-kissing-cousin in which the emphasis has shifted from the venue and its universal aspects to be evaluated, to that of an “experience” as a device for the reviewer to express their unique world-view as it manifests in this location/venue through a mini-narrative about themselves. [PLEASE, rate my review “cool” or “funny”]
Look at how the reviews are like little stories complete with characters and situations meant to communicate how smart, funny, witty, knowledgeable, desirable, cool, hip, qualified, etc. the reviewer is first and foremost with the secondary message as to the “quality” of said place coming out in some cheap/ironic between-the-lines theme.
E.G. “So it was Saturday, which means my boyfriend – who is in a band so he us usually up all night on Fridays playing gigs, was just coming home and when he comes home he is always starving (and a little tipsy!) which means: BRUNCH! Well, this time at Benny’s we…..”
I can’t even read them anymore. I just look at the rating. I start into one of these little gems and just see that girl, that every-fucking-girl-in-every-town that nobody can possibly actually like, but is somehow always with lotsa people, permanent yoga pants (because jeans are sooooo much work) with the Iphone hung out in front, just finger-banging away on something amazing. Why are people so self-absorbed? I wonder. Sincerely, MEEEEEEE.
#55
Correction:
b) It’s not something ANY “MAN OF VALUE” will judge her for or care about.
That’s what she actually thinks in most cases.
If the metaphor is a four or five lane expressway then most men don’t change lanes. They enter the flow of traffic and shift left until the reach the desired lane for travel. Changing lanes is almost entirely due to externalities, like job loss, divorce.
Lane changers are usually those drivers who constantly jocky for a better position, are never really happy with the lane they are in. A good analogy for the ladies. The growing frustration with the lane changers is the man into whose lane she merges she’ll not be there for long.
Rather woman opts for Plan B the man is now in an anxious state as to how long Plan B will be in effect. The very real fear is the lane changers itinerary reads:
-Ride carousel
-Find /Marry chump
-Babies
-Frivorce!, cash, prizes, custody
-Ride carousel
Plan B is not a destination, just a temporary stop. That’s the fear.
Bloom: “And I am by no means an economist but something I have heard said there about markets might fit. Do the opposite of what everyone else is doing. Everyone’s buying tech? Sell tech. Everyone rushing into the housing market? Sell or wait. Another way to ponder this. And some have said that already, skip the af part, forgo the trend. It’s what I will be advising my girls!”
I liken the mating market to the dating market too, but I think of it a bit differently. Look for value, particularly hidden value, with exceptional fundamentals. Then take a buy and hold strategy (dollar cost averaging over time…there will be highs and lows).
I’d apply the “do the opposite” principle above to peer groups. The in group in highschool and college isn’t likely to be the high value group. Hang with the smart folks who don’t have a whole lot of time for all the partying shyte. I sometimes feel like I’m from another planet reading these forums. I just cannot identify with five cocks in one fratnight. I’ve known people like that, but never hung with them. I didn’t go to parties at all, for the most part. Or clubs. Have done a lot of that as a married person (with my spouse) since college though.
Taz,
Damn I’m an idiot (chalk it up to sleep depravation). Been a fan of your writings for a while. Keep it up.
Thank you for this article because it filled in a piece that I had been missing.
A few weeks ago I did a YouTube video entitled why mgtow matters to women. I thought that I pretty much had it nailed but I realized after reading this I missed something rather crucial. I believe that women do indeed change lanes as one strategy becomes less effective. Some admittedly are stubborn and these are the ones that we see typically become angrier and more bitter as time goes on. They still believe that they deserve an alpha regardless of how much their own sexual value may have fallen.
Mgtow is important to the lane changers simply because they need to have someone to be able to change lanes to. When they begin to have difficulty with the strategy of using sex to retain an alpha the cry becomes predictably where have all the good men gone? However that same cry takes on an entirely different meaning when they realize that the betas that they were going to rely on have gone mgtow or ghost.
I wiser man than myself said ‘while women control access to sex men control access to relationships’. Their lane changing strategy understands not being able to attract alphas however it didn’t take into account at all that the betas themselves would say no to relationships especially as we are seeing and greater and greater numbers. It’s easy to shame a man, or a small number of men with ‘he must be gay’ or ‘on the downlow’ but when the women find themselves in a man drought that strategy they keep trying no longer works. This is why I believe we are seeing a shift to ‘what’s wrong with men? and our men our are failing us. Their understanding of men, particularly betas, can’t account for men saying no, and it is specially can’t account for men actually doing no.
Sorry about the formatting errors I dictated this on my iPad and I’m feeling lazy.
One last remark (you wish!) about multiple sex. Invariably, every woman who has engaged in, say, N = 5 sex one night as a young woman rounds that experience to N = 0, i.e. it doesn’t add to her number. Her reasoning is fourfold.
1. It isn’t what she usually does, so it’s not “fair” to lump something weird in awith nd count it along with all the normal stuff.
2. Besides, it was really kinda mostly as a joke, at first anyway. Kinda.
3. Ok, yeah, she really did greatly enjoy feeling so scuzzy after the third, or maybe it was the fourth guy, was finishing. He was so gross! But she was kinda sore after that and the fifth guy took too long and she didn’t really want it, so the whole thing didn’t really count.
4. You could consider it one big N = 1 experience, which isn’t so different after all from N = 0, smarty pants. Who are you and what are you doing in my head anyway?
#108:
5. And she’d had a lot to drink, so it pretty much all qualified as rape anyway…so it’s. Yeah. Definitely didn’t happen.
Jf12, just to clarify: do you believe that 10% full-stop have pulled trains/gangbangs, or that 10% of a particularly high-risk/unsupervised subset of women have…?
I reckon men change lanes all the time, and probably more often then women, as circumstance dictate.
Seems to me a man’s lane options are
go their own way
play the beta and all that entails
try their hand at being a pua etc and all that entails
And trying their hand at some sort of relationship ( alpha / beta doesn’t matter in this case)
Perhaps it’s the crowd of men I run with, but I see men doing some version of those things as the situation dictates (divorce, smp burn out, deer season, change of duty station.etc) throughout the 20+ years I know them.
A woman seems to change lanes for one reason: age. She either wants to make the best deal she can as she’s about to hit the wall ( or already has hit it) or wants to chase alpha cock because she is about to hit the wall.
#109, yep that too. That’s kinda in my first reason “not fair”. FWIW in the interest of fairness, if a girl in a club cuts loose and lapdances her stuff all over a dozen guys but doesn’t actually do outercourse skin to skin and only “officially” hooks up with one, him going to her place , then I’d not quibble about N = 1 for the night.
I’m pretty sure guys with lifelong reported N = 5 are also counting “There was this one time in 8th grade, and this girl was a friend I went to go see Aladdin with, it was kind of a date, and it was dark, and she let me feel her chest with her bra on. It was during a part where Jasmine’s chest seemed to fill the screen. Even though I wasn’t sure what I was feeling, it was, like, one of my peak experiences, man. Good thing I had the bucket of popcorn in my lap.”
I’m pretty sure girls with lifelong N = 5 are not counting “There was this one time in 11th grade, and All The Boys Wanted Me more than they wanted all the other girls. I could tell. Even though I was officially there at the house party with Jimmy, he was smoking dope with his friends who I can’t stand. So to get even I had sex with Tyler, Tyler’s brother who I can’t remember his name, and Johnny B, and Derek, of course, (did I really say it like that? “Of course, Derek!” giggle), and it seems like there was someone else. But it was just to get even. I never told him, but I knew.”
#110 Getting all quantitative, eh? Somewhere in between your extremes. About 10% of highly unsupervised girls like I said, including maybe a little *more* than 10% of college dorm girls, have had considerably greater than N = 2 in one nght.
My second trip through higher education was 10 years ago. I learned alot about young women that I wish I’d known when I was 20.
I learned young women have NO, ZERO, ZILICH discretion, nor do even know what the word means. Add that to the fact that they like to talk, and a I get them to tell me anything. Who was bi, who the size queens were, who man whores were and reviews of them…it was like a live action issue of Cosmo.
I learned that at a conservative, rural, public university the typical girl, white 18-22, LMC, MMC, nominally Christian was N15, except the Mormons, and there were a lot of them, so N3 for them. N30 was slutty according to the girls. N20 was often charged but barely admitted. I knew one girl who claimed N2. Her boyfriend was over 40, she was 18. Interesting guy, must have been taller on his back.
None of the girls talked about pulling trains, but I’d say 1 in 5 had done an FFM threeway, and 1 in 2 had had made it to 2nd base with another girl.
Keep in mind these are today’s 28-34 lane changers.
Yeah… But again, just because the grapes are sour, doesnt mean they aren’t true. But its basically a moot point anyway. Because, as the article pointed out, the whole of society has been morphed to let any woman run wild at her prime with the lucky few men invited to the party ( invitations were handed out at birth based off of a genetic lottery or circumstance). Then when the party winds down, its the rest of the male society that expected to be a janitor and to foot the bill. Welcome to the beginning of dystopia
lol @ Aladdin/Princess Jasmine breasts reference…adroit command of pop-culture
Obsidian, 14:
“In light of all that you know about the Red Pill, et al, if a Woman simply leveled with you and told you, upfront, before anything jumped off, what her “N” is, and how it all went down, would you be cool with that or not?”
Yes, if I assume/presume the woman is being completely honest about everything including the N and about how she felt about the guy(s).
Then I could make a fully informed decision about whether I want to rent (ONS, fling, STR, FWB) or buy (LTR, marriage), or rent with option to purchase, so to speak.
Let me flip that around to any women still reading.
Let’s say you are with a man you really like, and you could see yourself having sex with him and in a relationship with him. Let’s also assume you take Obsidian’s tack above, and you level with him, and you lay out your entire sexual history for him. You pull no punches.
Would you be OK if the guy says “OK. Given your history I will not be interested in you for marriage, not now, not ever. Nothing long term or that requires any form of commitment from me is in the cards and never will be. But you’re a lot of fun, and I’d love to do the STR/FWB thing with you.”
Would you?
The way it looks to me now, “I’ll bang you as long as I feel like banging you” is what a lot of ladies are settling for, and what they’re willing to settle for as long as the man is high value enough. The difference is that it’s all an unstated, implied arrangements rather than an explicit laying out of each other’s positions. Because I think if you laid it out like Obsidian suggests or as I flipped it, no woman would ever, ever agree to it.
“Because I think if you laid it out like Obsidian suggests or as I flipped it, no woman would ever, ever agree to it.”
I think you are correct. There seems to be little desire or incentive to play poker face-up.
The lane change becomes a log jam in part because women are attempting to get men to disclose and qualify his willingness to commit – how “serious” he is in order to measure her investment accordingly, initially in the form of sex or not, which is why the price discrimination is so often (rightly assumed to be) baked-into the lane change.
She’s attempting a kind of rigged discovery process in which she requires transparency of intent and availability of commitment but ignores or misunderstands that price discrimination is assumed until proven otherwise and that men will value her intimacy, one way or the other. In absence of facts, a man will reconstruct (“back into”) some value. This may even be borderline unconscious, but its there.
The exchange is not sex-for-sex, the exchange is sex for commitment and pooling of resources. Accordingly, women looking for Bux, even in its basic form of men offering “commitment” and the subsequent pooling, will desire to underwrite his capacity to provision. Makes sense.
Side bar: Deti, what do you think about the Bux aspect in terms of quantifying? I thinking it needn’t be greatly disproportionate to her own ability to provision. The goal is probably 1.5x to 2.0x+ hers, thus preserving the SAHM option, but I’d reckon that this is a shallow market (and only getting worse) and the later the lane change the lower the Bux requirement in terms of actual $$. The stability, security, predictability, and “dad” qualities being more rigid than pure income/career. Assuming of course that some basic hypergamy threshold is met. IOW, were still assuming e.g. college+college. There is a floor I’m sure. Break the buck and its marry the state/dog option or cats or whatever.
Luckily the discovery of his Bux can be achieved via a number of proxies. Conveniently, “traditional” dating might be injected back into the approach (or other qualifying techniques) to flush these things out, i.e. “Take things slow.” Online and similar aggregators make it relatively easy to cull the herd based on simple metrics as well. Bottom line, she’s gets decent transparency on the Bux part, is asking for transparency on the intent part, but is only offering equitable transparency on her intent. Shes keeping her “hole” card, pun intended.
A man will naturally desire to underwrite the risks and threats to his commitment and provisioning (which among other things could be her N and/or contextual sexual/relationship history) as well as the “value” of her sex as demonstrated by past decisions in which she has “given” sex to other men; the “N” being a kind of shortcut/proxy to (a) establishing the presence or extent of price discrimination and (b) the intangible “value” aspect of her intimacy relative to his own moral or visceral threshold.
He has little visibility as to prior pricing and context and no idea of actual N. She wants near absolutes while holding him to approximations and extrapolations. Her disclosure of such would be giving too much to chance, would be shifting the balance point toward who needed/wanted/valued commitment more (probably her at that point in the SMV crossover), and might just reveal the entire process to be the transaction that it is, which would also solidify the relationship between her value as a wife and the value of her sexuality/intimacy; something that 50 years of feminist “progress” has sought to decouple.
Of course, keeping the N out of it but maintaining the value of a man based on his Bux is, well, normal.
#118, Taz, the hiding of sexual information seems to be even more key to understanding women’s behaviors than hidden information. Someone (ADBG?) was going on, last week maybe, about the inherent asymmetric information problem being key to the sexual economy.
I meant hidden ovulation.
Taz, 118:
You said a mouthful there. I think you’ve hit on why “lane changing” just gets so viscerally repulsive, and it’s because lane changing requires a crass opportunism of an old exchange strategy that attempts reversion to Marriage 1.0 in a Marriage 2.0 world – sex for commitment for her; commitment for… nothing for him. She’s guaranteed his commitment; he’s guaranteed nothing.
In today’s society, as wise Badger has taught many moons ago, it’s not sex for commitment. It’s sex for sex (the AlphaFux model) or commitment for commitment.
Taz:
“Deti, what do you think about the Bux aspect in terms of quantifying? I thinking it needn’t be greatly disproportionate to her own ability to provision.”
Taz, I’d say “it depends”.
You are probably correct that she’s looking for a man who outearns her. Otherwise there’s no point in changing lanes. She needs someone to relieve part of the burden of supporting herself and any kids she wants to have.
But there’s more to it than that. The prime marker/goal of Beta Bux is marriage. And with marriage comes the one thing she hasn’t yet secured, and that is status. She not only gets Beta Bux, she gets the title of Mrs. Beta Bux, and with that comes status and respectability. It’s not as good or as hawt or as envy inspiring against her girlfriends as Mrs. AlphaFux, but it’s good enough. She also gets the knowledge that some guy somewhere thought her high value enough to get out his checkbook and walk her down an aisle.
A good proxy for Bux is his occupation. The professions are always good regardless of his actual salary. The point is even if he’s not completely earning big Bux, the potential is there. Bottom line is that I don’t think he has to be big Bux, but he has to outearn her. Otherwise there’s no point in changing lanes
There’s also stability and predictability: “he’s not alpha, but he’s here, and he’s mine, and there’s a reasonable probability that he’s going to stay here, and he has no other options so he’s going to stay mine”.
The rest of it is pretty spot on, really. Women have most of the advantages in the lane change to beta bux, because there are so many proxies and methods for her to evaluate his Bux. There are so few above-board proxies to determine her N, her wife potential, her willingness and ability to commit long term, her value beyond the sexual access she has granted or might potentially grant.
Someone (ADBG?) was going on, last week maybe, about the inherent asymmetric information problem being key to the sexual economy.
This was part of it,
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons
It goes something like this: Since most modern women are/were sluts (at least by the Catholic Church definition), and men really do not in many cases have a good way to determine otherwise, then men naturally should consider all women to be sluts and price them accordingly.
NAWALT
It should also be pointed out the asymmetry of lack of information does not typically go the other way. A fella’s career, wealth, power, looks, etc. are all visible to a woman.
#124 You have to make coverups visible so she can see them. Women love conspiracies, so you have to make sure she doesn’t tell anyone else what you are about to reveal to her. It almost doesn’t matter what you reveal, provided it isn’t gossip, because those are girl-to-girl secrets, exactly what you have to avoid. The best secrets are those that involve you and her, only you and her, but acceptable secrets are those that involve you e.g. “Don’t tell anyone, but I’m thinking about trying out for the minor league team. I don’t want anyone to think I’m a dork if it doesn’t work out.”
Hamster exercise, I suppose.
Hmmm. Like most everything RP, changing lanes is highly dependent upon age. And most people in the sphere concentrate on the 20s and 30s. Over 40 pretty much doesn’t exist.
Since I’m older, I have noticed another “Lane-Change” by the ladies and it usually goes like this. Mid 40’s wife has no respect for hubby, is not haappppy anymore, and frankly thinks having sex with him is disgusting. So she files for divorce and the guy knows if he opens his mouth she’ll make false accusations of abuse and so gives her whatever she wants to GTFO. She realizes she’s got the power !!! and its time to PAR-TEEE !!!”. Chick gets out of marriage thinking everything is gonna be GREAT !!! and within 2 years is wishing she was still married … to the same guy whose life she nuked. Who now hates her fucking ass and would never speak to her again, if it wasn’t for the kids.
She finds that most guys her age have gone MGTOW cause they’ve been Raped in divorce too. And these guys can see what she did to her Ex and fucking run when she comes around. Most guys she doesn’t find attractive anyway and those that do, don’t want HER. She may Cougar for a bit and ride the carousel …. till she finds out she is nothing but a fuck toy none of these guys would dare be seen with and she doesn’t want that … slut/respectability and all that.
So after age 50 hits, she usually finds that there isn’t a man within a 1,000 miles she wants and who will take her attitude and history. There was a post awhile back (don’t remember where) about women being done with men after 50 but it should be turned around. Given the state of women these days, why would any man want a woman over age 50 ? She changed lanes, blew a tire, went airborne, and hit a concrete wall at 90 mph. No airbags gonna save this bitch. She done. She roasted her hubby at age 45 and now gets to spend the next 30+ years alone. Having been in his shoes … I don’t give a shit and none of the men my age do either.
“Lane-Change” by the ladies
That is not so much a lane change, as it is more like “driving into the ditch”
There was a post awhile back (don’t remember where) about women being done with men after 50 but it should be turned around. Given the state of women these days, why would any man want a woman over age 50 ?
http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/are-women-done-with-men-after-age-55/
@117 and others, yes that does help explain it. And you are right, what person in their right mind would take that “deal.” And yet it seems to be all too much the way it works (or doesn’t work, for anyone) these days.
To be honest, today I just started bawling, it’s too much. I feel basically, there is very little hope. And I know I need to open my eyes to reality and the risks and the way things are. But it is so damn depressing. Truly.
Deti, like I said when you laid it out like that, the whole “i love you” bs, I kinda flipped, I misunderstood and I am sorry. I see it was a warning, of what could be, not a description of what you yourself do, and it’s true, the world is a very dangerous and deceptive place. I almost wish I didn’t know. At the same time I need to know.
I hope everyone gets the dish throwing and all that was just a joke. I don’t mean any harm.
You guys are good guys. I really appreciate the awakening, although I am literally shaken to the core, too.
Maybe that’s how the red pill goes down. This shit is grim, no two ways about it. Maybe like farm boy says this is the place illusions come to die. And hopefully past that, there is a rebuilding of a safer, saner, more reality-based reality.
It truly is terrifying to see all this so point blank. But truth is I am a mom, to two young ladies, who before I know it will be facing all this smoking wreckage, and I am their guide and leader. I hope they will listen. And thank you in advance for showing me the fork in the road, where to steer them, to that path less travelled but tried and true.
Ok going to go bawl some more. Peace out for now, I am sure I will drop by, but maybe not as often for a bit while I work thru this.
(Famous last words… We will see if I can resist commenting if I do peek in.)
And again thanks… See ya’ll soon!
Bloom,
You’re not the only one that gets down in the dumps over this stuff. Take it from a “terrified” bear.
deti, you rock! Great post. Indeed, it’s something we see over and over but it seems that only in women’s very rational minds such change never occurs. Perhaps to some degree it’s true, one more reason for guys to be really concerned about her past? :)))
Now, I like your articles because you address critical issues with clarity, from a male point of view. I would like to know your point of view of frivorces. I know a friend who’s going through a similar painful process in his marriage: he is good looking, has a very good job, one of the best husbands and fathers a woman could have (even changed the diapers of their two children), but his “wife” managed to transform his life into hell. Actually his family is even concerned about his mental health and concerned about him. It seems that she just didn’t cheat him… yet. But the menaces are many. To make a long story short, he was dominated since when there were boyfriends, with push and pull games. No, she wasn’t virgin when they married. Moreover, she has stated she’s a woman of opinion (very self-righteous) and quite self-entitled to my mind. Apart from leaving most of the task of taking care of the children to him, they always go out for lunch because she doesn’t cook. When they had the children, she wanted a babysitter and a housekeeper to “assist” her. Children were always left to school or kindergarten, even during holidays. After marriage, she quickly started to interfere in his family matters as well (such as how properties would be distributed to heirs). Always making up fights for trivial reasons… Well, I will stop here…
Now, is this so uncommon? Doesn’t almost everybody knows about some man who’s been completely screwed up by a childish, self-entitled, hysterical, probably psychotic, and completely irrational woman? Why does it happen? Because they can? Really in the case of this friend I am referring to, she’s completely nuts about ruining her marriage. Yet she’s doing it… because… she can?
It’s funny, we often hear female blog writers trying to promote marriage. If I were a woman, I would probably be doing the same, while ignoring all the risks men face in marriage. But it’s certainly an issue for men nowadays. I mean, know thyself and know whom you’re going to marry.
What is evident about all this from the risk of being the late bucker to frivorce busted, is the real low value men have in today’s society (at least for women as a group).
I think Rollo is right: feminist supremacy means that men have been erased from the equation for many women. When that is case, such as my trapped unfortunate friend, we are just emotional and psychological objects and resources providers. I think that being feminist is the biggest red flag a woman can have, because it means that a relationship with her will be very toxic for her male mate. In such case, MGTOW is a much better alternative. Even porn actresses are saints when compared to feminists, because at least they are not shaming our sexuality, quite au contraire.
But in a world where most women are feminists, which are the options? Cutting losses short is a good strategy. And keep a winner, when and if she shows up?
Bloom,
Congratulations. You are one of the few ladies who seems to have digested the red pill. You can’t go back to the blue pill. What to do next?
@ Rocket #127
That’s the alpha-reinterest phase identified by Rollo: http://rationalmale.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/smv-timeline1.jpg
Bloom, you’re a good woman and completely right to react so strongly. The red pill ought to induce projectile vomiting. “And hopefully past that, there is a rebuilding of a safer, saner, more reality-based reality.” Maybe. More reality-based, definitely yes. Rebuilding, definitely not. But safer and saner, that’s where the interesting part of the discussion can be.
When you’re ready, please look at some “dark triad” research, along with “war brides”.
Thank you, all. I am not sure what now. Guess time for more pondering.
This may be corny, but I just had this very comforting vision.
Amist the dusty confusion of a wild eyed stampede, a mare and two fillys break away from the herd, cutting off toward a brushy overgrown path, and up a steep bank. At the top of the trail, the three trot out onto a lush and grassy plateau. Across the vista dark smoke hangs in the air, and the wind carries the sounds of clashes of battle and cries of the wounded. The older fully asks, “what is that place?” The lead mare replies, “somewhere you never want to go, things you never need to see…trust me.” The wide eyed fillys pause for a moment, and then break into a spirited sprint, cavorting happily in the sunshine and fresh air. Finally, they settle by a bubbling brook, relaxed, calm and carefree. Every so often, another mare or filly makes her way up the path to discover the bucolic plateau and join. And in time the herd increases, and they grow strong. The word of this beautiful place spreads. More fillys come, seeking refuge. A new day dawns…
Peace! See you soon.
#130
What’s your problem? You’ve already reproduced. You can (re)marry whenever you want. You can have sex whenever you want. 95% of society automatically assumes you deserve male companionship and resources. All this applies to your daughters as well. In terms of evolution, you’re all set. What are you afraid of?
@Bloom
Yes, you can build up your own small herd and if you can catch the ear of other women and if they are in the right place for the message to sink in they can join your herd.
I liked the imagery.
Bloom, your optimism is refreshing.
I think you’ll find that despite our differences of opinion, and less than PC rhetoric we are not the enemy, though we certainly adversarial, sometimes embittered, and often combative.
If you find the Redpill leaves a bitter after taste I recommend swishing the anger and outrage generated from reading the Agent Orange files.
http://agentorangefiles.com/
It’s good to know who your true enemies are.
[…] Much has been written and touched on of late regarding the phenomenon of “lane changing”. Essentially this is the phenomenon I described in my post on the “Just Treat Women as People” mating strategy. […]
Always making up fights for trivial reasons… Well, I will stop here…
Now, is this so uncommon?
It is very common. She is shit testing him, and he is failing. Though , from the sound of things, the situation may be beyond redemption.
This sounds like Stacy Kiebler. Pregnant and marrying tech rich guy soon after being dropped by Clooney. The relative rapid turn of events gets explained away as, not hooking up with the rebound guy, rather it’s after a while a woman figures out what she wants and she’s able to go out and get it.
Bloom,
In your vision, there are no boy horses. How do they figure in?
But in a world where most women are feminists, which are the options? Cutting losses short is a good strategy
Yes. And the women will miss out on the Patriarchy Dividend.
http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/07/20/forfeiting-the-patriarchal-dividend/
It is everyones loss.
Farm Boy, thanks for the link back to Dalrock. I went and dug around there a bit and found that he actually has lots of good data to back up my observation. Here are a couple of stats: In 1960 essentially ALL divorced men aged 45-64 ended up remarrying. By 1990 that had dropped to 67% and by 2010 to 36% and I believe its still been continuing to drop. The numbers for women are GRIM and are only gonna get worse.
Here is a link to the chart: http://dalrock.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/45plusremarriagerates1960to20101.jpg
And here is a link to the article: http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/12/21/not-glad-tidings-for-post-marital-spinsters/
After looking at the data, I have to admit that I was shocked. What the hell are the Feminists doing … to their fellow women. They are just convincing women to destroying their lives; its sick. And why isn’t someone telling the women the truth. There are very, very few RP ladies and why is that ? Here is the truth: If you are a women and you divorce you husband after age 45 the odds of you NEVER getting remarried again are over 80%.
And its just gonna get worse. Has marriage been destroyed in the West ? YUP !
@FB:
Only a miracle can redeem his marriage at this point. Given his position and good looking appearance, I have told him the odds are he will get a younger and much more beautiful mate than her. But he’s concerned with the kids. Hence the trap.
He deserves something better. His daughters love him.
If she’s shit testing, then she’s produced so much shit that he may well be drowned in it.
@FB:
Only a miracle can redeem his marriage at this point. Given his position and good looking appearance, I have told him the odds are he will get a younger and much more beautiful mate than her. But he’s concerned with the kids. Hence the trap.
He deserves something better. His daughters love him.
If she’s shit testing, then she’s produced so much shit that he may well be drowned in it.
Trying to be brief (ha!)
@ 132 I hope your friend’s wife wakes the f up (excuse my language) before she implodes the good thing she has going. And if so, can I have her housekeeper and nanny? Please?
@ 137 it depends, I am either in like Flynn, or there is little hope. Depending, I guess, on how one looks at it. See 145 for some of what my worries are… I will ponder this.
@ 138 why thank you! If the only herd I ever effect is my own, I will be happy with that. I may push into the larger realm in time, I do think there are a lot of women who do not get this side of the story, and if they did, it might change a lot of assumptions that I believe now to be false ones that are actually working against women — and men and what they both seem to really want. Big topic. Lots to tackle there. Someone has to. Am I ready, or able, or (let’s be honest of the biggest threat) willing to take the heat? Not sure… I am no expert by any means, just struggling to get my head wrapped around it really. But perhaps in time I will work up to it…or on a spur of the moment impulse, I will just jump in! You know, just like a woman!
@139 do I dare look, will it put me over the edge entirely? Holy smokes. Not sure I can take much more. The real enemy? Once I regroup, I will check it out.
@ 143, I pondered working the male horses into the vision, and actually tried, but could not quite see that far ahead. Going back down the path in search of them is probably not going to work, so hopefully they will work themselves into the mix spontaneously (Oh look ladies, a stallion and his beta herd. Yippie!) Seems a bit down the road, the male horses part, but hopefully not too far down the road because it just doesn’t seem like paradise without them, no matter how green the grass or bucolic the setting, now does it? No, it does not. Meh… Hopefully they will head up that path to check out the rumors of a new herd, otherwise the ladies may have to try perching out on the edge of the plateau basking in the glorious sun, like sirens. Or maybe the male herd is already there, just out of sight in the woods, carefully planning their game, having steered the females off the path below without them even knowing all along, letting them think they discovered the plateau. Or maybe they will come swashbuckling onto the scene completely by happy accident as part of some other heroic adventure. Or maybe the male horses will give up on ever finding female horses and just play video games and watch porn and never show up (hopefully not!) Or maybe, the female herd will have to suppress their desires and take up oragami and knitting and other banal pursuits and just imagine there are male horses..out there…somewhere….sigh. (Hopefully not!) Or one day it will all melt down in some PMS inspired, pent-up-libido Vesuvian rage of knitting needles and origami birds, and the male horses will only find traces of evidence of the fabled spinster female herd eons later (hopefully not!) For now, we’ll just call it…to be continued…
What the hell are the Feminists doing … to their fellow women. They are just convincing women to destroying their lives; its sick
That really is sad. It is mostly about the leaders and true believers feeling food about themselves. Not about actually doing good.
Bloom,
In your horse vision what breed of horse did you see in your head? I am curious how it matches to what I envisioned.
And be sitting down when read the Agent Orange files. It’s large collection, read in small does, the tedium of it mitigates the outrage some.
@ Badpainter, not sure I pictured any specific horse breeds…beyond them being roughly of the same hair color and such as my daughters and I. And then the females joining in at later points, all colors, including some paints and pintos! Curious though, what you pictured?
Bloom,
As a Beta I pictured what I think of as being the most beautiful of the Beta* breeds: early 20th century Hanovers. An Alpha horse would be a Clydesdale.
The post war changes to the breeding standard have in my opinion greatly compromised the ascetic quality of the breed making them more feminized like modern show quality Arabians which I think are the purse dogs of horses.
*I’ve decided to subvert the Alpha/Beta/greek letter distinctions by applying it to all things the way most European languages already distinguish nouns by gender.
Bloom,
Your mention of “horse porn” got me to thinking
Bloom,
About the twenty percent remaaiage rate after 45, I think your personal odds are better. You’re man friendly and you’re learning. Share with your herd and let them learn.
I hope so Fuzzie, I hope so! I am not at 45 yet, but am over 40 so…
On ghe other hand 20% odds is better than many other things I suppose! Sigh…
Cookies, anyone?
@152 the Hanovers are stunning indeed. My maternal grandfather had a weakness for Belgins, both early as draft animals on ghe fsrm and later just for aestetics and he bred award winners. So I have a fondness for them, although I am not sure they are the horse I would necessarily choose to represent myself personally. Have a look!
http://globerove.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Belgian-horses.jpg
@Fuzzie, beautiful horse porn!
Bloom,
Neigh!
@ fuzzie that was great! Brought back a very memorable horse moment. One of the things I do for a living is write (as is immediately obvious from my many typos in every post, can someone add an edit feature to this blog??? Lol) Anyway, I interviewed the artist of this sculpture http://www.kellysgalleryatjoseph.com/artists/barton/lg_img/austin_barton_18.jpg about another piece he was doing, a life and a half size sculpture of four horses, one of which was in process in the middle of his studio at the time (incredible!) All of a sudden mid interview he says, as excited as a little kid, “you have to see this!” And pops in a video tape of them rolling one of the other horses in the piece out of the foundry after it had been cast in bronze. Unexpectedly, a horse grazing far off in the adjoining pasture suddenly pricked up its ears and headed straight over. It came right up to the sculpture and started to make noises at it, trying to get it to interact, mistaking it for real. The artist smiled after the video ended and said, “And that’s the best compliment anyone has ever given me on my work.” Thanks for bringing that moment back!
I have met so many interesting people thru my work, been able to experience so many things I never, ever would have otherwise, like that. (And as par for the course, have written about many not as interesting things, as well!) But that afternoon, that interview, has to be one of the highlights.
Hey, another Belgium fan….. but she is my 1st and only horse so I have no other to compare her to
Bloom…did you by any chance frequent a forum called Neptunuslex a few years back? You seem very similar to one of the only other females there (two kids, age range, “guy” type tech career, live on west coast, and horse enthusiast). The blog owner was a retired naval pilot and he passed when he crashed (test pilot job) but it was a great site.
@deti: This is specially for you: Feminist blasphemer-vandalize Cathedral of Cologne Germany during Christmas mass.
The father of feminism in satan, the prince of darkness, and their ‘patron’ demon is lilith. Abortions are mystical sacrifices of innocent blood, to empower satan and their legions.
@liz nope, not me! I rarely participate in online forums, actually. Don’t follow many blogs. I just kind of stumbled scross this one and find the discussions so interesting, I have to comment.
And while I admire horses very much, between us, they actually scare me (had a horse bolt on me as child) so I admire them from a distance and don’t own any myself, much to my older daughters disappointment.
The horse imagery is a play off another post (two actually) here by Hans on the dynamics of the herd and the role women can play in shaping these social mores and movements. I believe he is right, I have dropped some red pill info on several female friends to test the waters and they are all very interested to know more! Then they want the link to the blog, then I think, “oh crap! They are going to out me.” I should have chosen another screen name. I am pondering changing it to Hamster, for that very reason! Hamster, the poster formerly known as Bloom. Lol. Shhhhh.
I like the imagery of moment 2:31 in the horse porn video Fuzzie posted. The swelling herd, so inspiring. I have watched it three times now!
Oops Han, not Hans! Sorry!!!!
Ah well, guess I’m not missing my calling in OPSEC.
“I should have chosen another screen name. I am pondering changing it to Hamster, for that very reason! Hamster, the poster formerly known as Bloom. Lol. Shhhhh.”
Hee hee.
I have the same problem…worse, I’m using my real name (and highly photoshopped image). But most of the women I know who need this sort of forum the most would never use the advice anyway.
I rarely participate in online forums, actually
Perhaps this is a good thing, for if you did, you would probably empty your house by throwing stuff.
And the place much needed a decluttering. Thanks, farm boy! Can you take all that stuff now out on the lawn w you though? I need to mow.
Liz I tried to post with the moniker Hamster as a joke but it wouldn’t let me. Guess I am stuck w Bloom! You are lucky your name is fairly common at least, I like the picture too!
Can you take all that stuff now out on the lawn w you though?
Sure. I will take it to my Mom’s charity thrift shop.
As for your ex demanding that you read Howard Zinn; I would say that would be legitimate grounds for divorce.
BB, who doesn’t really care about N, notes: “The real problem, from my POV, is that with increased N comes this uneasiness about previous price discrimination.”
I like myself, so I don’t really pay attention to N, either. (That is, I don’t know what my N is, and have never asked what someone else’s is.) However, I won’t permit myself to get locked down with a high-N woman. That is a filter I use. The reason I filter for promiscuity is that if I wish to be monogamous I would like it to be with someone who knows how to be monogamous.
In my experience, monogamy is a skill and a pastime. If some woman says, “I’m finally ready, I know what I want, what I want is you, yay me” my response is, “Pigs fly, eh? (Cool, let’s meet at the St. Regis tomorrow night.)”
In my experience, high-N = redlined hypergamy engine. Have fun, sure, but no LTR. Once hypergamy is a habit, there can be no long term happiness for the romantic man. It’s all transactional. I can only operate with eyes wide shut for moments, not for the duration.
http://www.dumblittleblog.com/2014/04/i-would-never-have-dated-you-when-i-was.html?m=1 (h/t Rollo)
I Would Never Have dated You When I Was 25
That’s what she blurted out to me yesterday right before I told her that I would never marry her. She proceeded to explain how back then she was attracted to the huge roided out bodybuilder types and how she finds them disgusting now
We could play this game endlessly and find example after example of lane changing. Only a moron or liar would try to hold the position that no women lane change
[…] we have been talking all about the very, very real phenomenon of Lane Changing and Alpha Fux, Beta Bux, Obsidian raised a very good question […]
Deti, I think that you’re missing a major reason why women have sex with attractive men. Being desired by an attractive man turns her on, no matter what other benefits may accrue to her. Just because he wants her, her desire ramps up. Really, women do work like that a lot. Of course, she also has ASD and LMR as inhibitions, but if he’s attractive enough or if she’s drunk enough, her hamster will deal with them without his intervention.
[…] course regardless of the friction coefficient of the road surface, and executed an obstacle-evading lane change smoothly and without any deviation from the target […]
[…] Something’s wrong with me, and I don’t want it to ruin my life. All I know is however much Mom says otherwise, the girls don’t want me, not even the college girls […]