(Editor’s Note): It seems that my recent email conversation with popular ladies dating and relationship coach, Mr. Evan Marc Katz, has proved much more titillating than even I thought! So, I’m taking the rare and unusual step of following up a post the next day with an “update” of sorts. Even though he’s on vacation, he’s been closely following along the action, and offers the following comments, which he’s cool with my posting here. Afterwards is my reply:
EVAN MARC KATZ, THU, Aug 7, 2014:
Challenge for your readers:
Design a dating strategy for a high quality 38 year old woman who wants to get married and have children.
This strategy has to be 100% beneficial to her short and long term desires, so that she can find a similar high quality relationship oriented man without wasting a ton of time or getting her heart broken by sleeping around. These are HER needs. What would you advise her to do?
O, don’t say this, because this would tip off where I’m going. But you can save my retort for later:
Ask guys out? Call them regularly between dates? Make the plans? Pick up the check? Make the first move? Have sex without commitment? Ironically, your comments would suggest women do this to demonstrate their value to you. This is prototypically masculine behavior. And yet, you complain women are too masculine. So which is it? If you’re a masculine man, you demonstrate it by doing. If you’re a feminine woman, you demonstrate by receiving. Y’all are contradicting yourselves. You want high quality feminine women to pursue you; what you aren’t grasping is that a high quality feminine woman doesn’t have to pursue you; all she has to do is wait for a guy to make the effort for her. If it’s not going to be you, that’s fine.
Please don’t respond by issuing more false ad hominem attacks on me or my readers – who are like me, moderately attractive, Ivy League, six figure earners – not a bunch of losers as you would suggest. Really, there is so much false bullshit being spewed here it’s hard to know where to begin.
But, in short: I was a very successful online dater for ten years. I married incredibly well at age 36. My wife is a stay at home mom and certainly not my sugar mama. And my blog, as your friend Private Man knows, is completely NOT about telling women what they want to hear. It’s about telling the truth about how men think. The thing is: they want men who think like me, not like you. Men who don’t see paying for dinner as beta. Men who don’t think women are only as good as their youth. Men who can appreciate and can get NSA sex but will respect any great catch who makes us wait for sex. Men who want to be true MEN; loyal husbands and fathers who listen to their wives, respect their wives, and provide for their families.
My advice is designed to help women weed out players, and angry guys and cheap guys and misogynists and men who have little respect for women. I’ve watched my advice get completely twisted by absolute thinking – as if I think men should go bankrupt, women should be rude and attraction doesn’t matter. More bullshit. Like Obama and death panels, I’m not going to defend against things I haven’t said.
All I know is that most self respecting women reading this thread would be suitably horrified by how little you think of their gender overall. And if you guys are bright – and you swear that you are – you will realize that you sound exactly like the women you decry on Jezebel. Reality check: Your reaction to the comments on uberfeminist sites is same as most women’s reaction to the manosphere. All anger, no nuance. Just repeating talking points without acknowledging the reality of the other side. Noise.
If you check out my blog, it is red pill, in that I acknowledge the male POV and tell women how to adjust to reality instead of trying to change men. But I do it from a place of love and respect because I really want to help women. I will do the same for you guys. If you don’t want to be labeled misogynist, stop saying misogynist things. You sound like Republicans who swear they’re not racist when they take away the Voting Rights Act and hang Confederate flags.
I understand that you’ve been hurt, that you’ve spent too much money on bad dates, that you want to get laid, that you want a feminine woman who appreciates you and makes you feel like a king. I did too. The difference is that I assume the best in women and encourage them to see the best in men. Same goes for you. Assume the best in women, and court them with confidence, and you can have the relationship of your dreams. Assume that women suck and that being an alpha skittles guy is the way to go and no woman worth her salt will stick around to find out how great you are. Be a giver and ye shall receive in return. Think that giving is for betas and suckers? Well, all that means is that you wouldn’t make much of a husband for my readers, that’s all.
I wish you guys the best of luck. Props to anyone who read this with an open mind and can concede the validity in anything I wrote.
The way I see it, if hardcore feminists don’t like me and MRAs/PUAs don’t like me, I’m doing something very right.
And here’s my response:
OBSIDIAN, THU, AUG 7, 2014:
Hi Evan,
Wow, I thank you for the passionate response! I’m a bit confused by it though – I know very little about your personal life and that’s for the best as I don’t see how it would be relevant at all to the current discussion at hand. As I said, I’m addressing myself to the arguments presented as per our conversation; to that extent, your personal life is irrelevant.
Moreover, you seem to have me confused with certain commenters who may have delved into what they think they know about your personal life. If this is indeed the case (as you can see, the thread is on fiyah – upwards of 400 comments last time I checked!–and which only drives home the point I was making in my earlier comment I made on the thread and that I emailed to you: that our convo has definitely struck a raw nerve; guys, many of whom have NEVER commented on J4G before, have come outta the woodwork to comment on this. That ought to tell you something, E)
As for your experiment:
LOL. Not to be flippant, but you have got to be kidding me, right? Evan, there are poor Black, White and Latina Women right here in Philly and other big cities across the country that same age and older(!), with kids by different Baby Daddies, who can and often do find Men to wife them up. Don’t take my word for it, see it for yourself – there’s an excellent book on the topic called “Promises I Can Keep”, by Edin & Kefalas. I’ve discussed it quite a bit on J4G, just run a search for it in the search engine and about half a dozen posts will come back by me on it. The number one problem facing Women in today’s mating market isn’t finding Men who will wife them up; it’s that they’re gunning way out of their league and trying to get a very small pool of highly desirable Men to wife them up. Huge difference. And why do they do this? Well, in large part, because they can – “Promises” discusses how and why – simply put, Women don’t have to “settle” anymore. They don’t “need” Men they may have once did in the past. Even poor Women – “losers” as you put it – don’t need Men like that. They can and will hold out for the better off guys, and in most cases it never happens – better off guys tend to pair off with better off gals. But just about every Woman out there can get wifed up, if she wants to.
Let me put it another way that you may understand:
Earlier this year, Paul Carrick Brunson did a five city “love tour” that was hosted by BET and Ciroc, and was promoting a tv sitcom called “Let’s Stay Together”. One of the stops on the tour was my hometown Philly. The event itself was held at the Hotel Monaco, a beautiful spot downtown.
Now, you know Paul – he’s a very classy guy – and his team did a bangup job. It was a test run for what he calls his “flow-dating” concept. Basically, speed dating for Black folks. Not only did PCB put his all into pulling off the event, he went the extra mile to assure that as many Black Men were in attendance as possible, since that was one of the big sticking points with events of this kind in Black America (the Black female to Black male ratio at these kinds of events can be as high as 7 to 1! Think about that for a moment) – he even called in “reinforcements” from a bud who was having a whiskey-tasting event around the corner. Oh, and like you and yours, this was an upscale crowd. I was very likely the only Brotha in attendance who came from a solid Blue Collar background.
E, trust me when I tell you, that every Woman in the place could have paired off with a guy if they wanted to. Every. Single. One. Of. Them. How do I know that?
Because I was there to do some field research of my own. PCB handed out forms to everyone, where you were to jot down the names of the people you chatted with, and whether you would like to see them again. I must’ve chatted with at least 10 ladies, and easily 8 of them I would have liked to chat with again. My form was completely filled out. And I noticed lots of scribbling on many of the guys’ forms, too.
But, I noticed that A LOT of the ladies’ forms were nowhere near as “scribbled” – several of the ladies I chatted with had barely a few names and so forth on it – remember, you were supposed to jot down EVERY person’s name you chatted with. Several ladies I chatted with even noted how full my sheet was; by comparison, theirs wasn’t even half as filled out.
While there were no doubt some Women there who were just flatout more attractive than others – as is the case in anywhere else in life – the fact remains that if they wanted to, they could’ve gone home with a Man that night, and could have quite developed into something more.
Most chose not to.
You know PCB, Evan – don’t take my word for it, ask him. As far as I know, he’s done more work in actually bringing as many Black Men as possible to the table, than anyone else I am aware of along these lines, and even that wasn’t enough for large numbers of Black Women. Now, to be fair, over the course of his five city love tour, some 150 couples have been matched and at least one couple got married. So far from a wash. Still, and I think PCB will agree with me on this, what I just relayed is pretty powerful, and really raises lots of questions. By definition, this was pretty much the best of what Philly had to offer in terms of Black Men, and the majority of them didn’t make the cut insofar as the ladies were concerned.
Let me address something else you said. I try my best to keep my personal views and feelings out of the discussion, because I try to focus on the issues and not my personal stuff, right or wrong, good or bad. What I said to you that sparked off this huge conversation, has nothing to do with me – the fact that the comments thread has now doubled in size in a little over 24 hours when compared to your own, is a testament to that fact. Men from all over the country and from all walks of life, deeply resonated with what I wrote. How do you explain that, Evan? Are all of them knuckledragging misogynistic losers in love and life, too?
The simple truth is, that the Old Rules no longer apply for large swaths of American Men in the modern day mating market. They. Just. Don’t. And the reason for why that is, has everything to do with what Edin and Kefalas say in “Promises I Can Keep” (you can checkout Edin’s comments in Hanna Rosin’s “The End of Men“, too) – Women – even older, even poorer, even Baby Mamas many times over – simply don’t have to “settle for less” to use an oft-repeated term by the ladies in Black America. They can afford, literally, to Hope Against Hope for guys like you and PCB – conventionally attractive, highly successful guys, who say all the right things. Well, we know the results of such a strategy, right?
After all, it’s what keeps you in business.
Oh, and another thing:
What I said to you initially, wasn’t based on anything personal, or for that matter based on the experiences of other guys – it was based on what Women themselves have said, either to me directly, or that which I have heard by being a fly on the wall, lo these many years. See, you’re not the only one who listens to the ladies, Evan. I’ve had Women tell me, and I’ve overheard Women say to each other, that there are many reasons they can and will go out with Men, that don’t have a blessed thing to do with said Men – they go out with them out of a sense of boredom; others do it to get the Princess Treatment – especially if they haven’t had it in awhile. Still others do it to make another Man – the one they really want – jealous. And yes, some of them do it for the great times and free grub. I know that’s something that’s hard for you to conceive, but for the Other 99% of us, times are very hard out here, and it is not at all unusual for a Woman to go out with a guy to get a meal. Indeed, and again there is all kinds of social science research to back me up on this – you can start with Charles Murray’s critically-acclaimed work “Coming Apart” – the things I’m talking about here, literally don’t apply to or affect you or those whom you serve; but that doesn’t make it any less real for the rest of us. The ladies in your target demo and who makeup your client rolls don’t have to go out with guys to get a meal and a good time, fair enough; but that doesn’t change the fact that they aren’t above going out with a guy for the other reasons I mentioned. Remember, I’ve gotten this info from ladies all over the SES map. Not just the proverbial ‘hood.
So, again: sure, I’m game to post up your challenge below to the board and see what the commenters have to say; but I can tell you that I won’t be surprised one little bit if they come back saying something very similar to what I’m saying to you right now – that the lady in your scenario can get wifed up with the quickness if she wants to. I personally know easily at least half a dozen ladies in my social orbit who are older, and who have kids, who are Black and nowhere near as privileged socioeconomically as the lady you describe in your secnario, who can get wifed up tomorrow if they want to (one of them is 40+, has a daughter, and “her guy” has pursued her for 20 years; another is also 40+, has at least three kids from previous cats, and actually left “her guy”, who didn’t have kids, never married, lives in a better part of town, owns his own home, has cars, you name it, to move back in with her 20-something year old Baby Mama daughter in the stompdown ‘hood; homeboy wanted to wife her up, too. There are other examples. The Thirst, is Real). They don’t, because at least in part, they believe that they can “do better” and that they “deserve more” than what they can realistically get out on the open mating market, given their situations. As it currently stands though, the culture, and yes to some extent guys like you, Keeps Hope Alive.
O.
*******************************************************************
Now, before I turn it loose to the rest of you:
1. Again, let’s keep it classy, folks. NO personal attacks, and I mean it. I don’t care who says it against who; let’s try and respect each other, OK?
2. There’s even MORE to the conversation between EMK and yours truly, which I will post in the comments. So hold off from commenting for a bit until I’ve had a chance to post them up (wait about 20 minutes, THEN let er rip, LOL).
3. Do both me and EMK a favor – tell a friend about this conversation, male and female alike – ask them to check it out, and weigh in with their thoughts. Hit up Facebook, Twitter, you know the drill – this is a very important topic, and we’re having what I think is a very productive discussion.
Thank you!
“dating strategy for a high quality 38 year old woman who wants to get married and have children.”
Doesnt add up. Is she a widow from a man who was non fertile?
As promised, here’s the rest of the convo between Mr. Katz and yours truly, part one:
Hi Evan,
Actually, great minds do indeed think alike – I’m posting up new posts detailing our most recent convo as we speak! Will let you know when they go live.
O.
> Subject: Re: Your post
> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 08:28:28 -0400
>
> O
>
> I will send you to a half dozen of my blog posts that say some version of what you just said. Unfortunately you ignored them and picked up on this courtship post – which, although I believe every word – doesnt begin to illustrate my entire philosophy. 80%of my posts are about telling women to be more accepting$. give good men a shot and not to be blinded by alpha male chemistry and money. 20% tell women not to waste time on players who are not into them or stepping up to commit. You wouldn’t argue either point. Which is why it’s annoying to become your pinata based on one post which scolds men to step up.
>
> I would highly suggest if you want to give me a fair hearing that you acknowledge what I said above, that I am as red pill as women’s advice gets, and that most of my reader complaints are from women complaining I let men off the hook, am asking them to change, and think they should settle.
>
> I am on vacation still but would be disappointed if I didn’t see these last two emails appear in a new blog post or your current thread.
>
> Best,
>
Evan
And here’s part two (for now!):
Hey Evan,
No problem! I am more than happy to give you what the fellas over at J4G have come up with:
Girl Game is so Simple and Yet so Hard
http://www.justfourguys.com/girl-game-is-simple-yet-so-hard/
Skeptical at First, a Girl Tries Girl Game
http://www.justfourguys.com/skeptical-at-first-a-girl-tries-girl-game/
Seasons Of Life: Effective Beauty Tips For The Older Woman
http://www.justfourguys.com/seasons-of-life-effective-beauty-tips-for-the-older-woman/
Why Women Fail with Men
http://www.justfourguys.com/why-women-fail-with-men/
Deti’s Musings
http://www.justfourguys.com/detis-musings/
It Isn’t All Our Fault (Guest Post By Deti)
http://www.justfourguys.com/it-isnt-all-our-fault-guest-post-by-deti/
It’s Not All Our Fault, Part Two (Post By Deti)
http://www.justfourguys.com/its-not-all-our-fault-part-two-post-by-deti/
And that’s just for starters. LOTS of really powerful stuff in the comments too, so definitely read up on that – you know what, get some of your lady besties to do same, we’re always open to suggestions, comments, observations, insults and death threats.
Also, and picking up on your previous email where you suggest that I haven’t given your site a good once-over: not only are you mistaken, but several of the fellas over at J4G have also read your blog very closely, and we actually think at some points you call it right down the middle. Here’s two posts that are among my faves of yours:
Why Men Don’t Write to Curvy Women on the Internet
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/online-dating-tips-advice/why-men-dont-write-to-curvy-women-on-the-internet/
(Personal Note): I think the gal pictured on your post here can mos def get it, but then I’m a Brotha, and errbody knows that we Brothas like em built for comfort rather than for speed…I’m just sayin’
If You Are Short, Fat, Older or An Asian Man, You Must Read This. But Especially If You’re Short.
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-tips-advice/dating-advice-for-short-men-life-is-unfair/
As a Brotha who’s 5’8″, I can in many ways relate. I’ve worked around it (cough, GAME, cough), but I like how you just kick it straight, no chaser – unlike the whole “curvy” thing, there’s no way to euphemize being a short guy; no way to sugarcoat it. It is something to overcome, end of.
So, that’s two posts of mine, right off the bat, that I think you really do a great job of being straight up. And that’s why we’re talking right now – because I don’t think you’re a suckup or anything like that. We just disagree on some things, and we’re having a real conversation about all of that. And that’s always a good thing, in an age where the extremists on both sides basically run the table.
Don’t you agree?
O.
> Subject: Re: Your post
> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 08:46:32 -0400
>
> Oh and in terms of getting wifed up, I was talking a dating strategy. Meaning, what advice would you give them about who asks out whom, calls, pays, waits to have sex, pulls down profile and steps up to commit. Because if you were designing a dating strategy to ensure you go out with men of high integrity only, I’m pretty sure you’d say the same thing I do: sit back and watch to see how much of an effort he makes. If he doesn’t make one, he’s not that into you. Thus, courtship conveys the level of his seriousness about you. If you don’t want to do that, it’s okay, but it makes perfect sense for a woman to weed out men based on this criteria. I tell women to effusively thank you, offer to pay, insist on Date 4 and to use lots of foreplay in the first month. But if you came up with any other advice for 38 year old marriage and child oriented superstars, you weren’t thinking of their needs; you were thinking of yours.
Re: the challenge
Nope. This is so very much not my problem.
Perhaps they try Assortative Mating I hear that’s popular.
I’m going to have to break Mr. Katz’s frame from the get-go. 38 years old AND high quality? Wants children? Do you know anything about biology?
My advice? Go back in time 15-20 years and change your priorities. If you really believe a dating coach can solve your self-imposed fertility issues, then let me offer you a great deal on a slightly used flux capacitor instead.
@5
Excellent point.
A 38 year old women can be perfect in every way but the age/fertility/birth defect ration is a deal breaker.
No possibility of kids=no point to marriage.
Ok, fertility issues aside, what makes this woman “high quality” yet still single at 38? After all, we cannot proffer a solution without knowing the problem. So here goes:
What is her N count?
What is her credit rating?
Has she been married before? If so, why is she now single?
What is her BMI?
Is she now, or has she ever been treated for an STD or psychiatric condition, including clinical depression?
If she is unable or unwilling to give answers to these questions then there is nothing to be done to solve her problem.
“38 year old woman who wants to get married and have children”
Her fertility’s done. Next question?
Challenge for your readers:
Design a dating strategy for a high quality 38 year old woman who wants to get married and have children.
What is this? A Kobayashi Maru test?
“Design a dating strategy for a high quality 38 year old woman who wants to get married and have children.”
too late. No man is going to welcome the timescale required by that, it’s ridiculous. Married by next month and her preggo immediately afterward? Why? Why would the man want this? He can just shop younger if he wants kids (I don’t think that the drive is as strong in men, he may well not bother).
Please let’s not have the old ‘men have to have kids early too’ (because…fair…and lies (massive exagerations) about male caused genetic defects – there is no analogue of the menopause for men). Men don’t have to rush and have every reason not to rush. Funtime be over when the little baby arrives.
The women at 25-30 need schooling on how not to end up being desperate for insta-marriage and kidz-right-damn-now at age 38.
And the women that are that age and alone need to start hunting down the feminists that put them in that predicament. It isn’t the men that caused this, this is on women.
Maybe EMK can teach (continue to teach?) women to think what the man might want. Maybe she needs to shop quite a bit older than her? Maybe less wealthy men than her (less for him to risk in marriage)?
But really? 38 is too damn late for a woman to suddenly demand Prince Charming, a ring and his seed.
I don’t see any of that as masculine behavior at all. I see it as investment behavior.
Now back in patriarchal times, investment behavior was reserved for men only. But we don’t live in a patriarchal culture, and haven’t for about 50 years now.
As Novaseeker wrote in the other thread… The script has changed. Time to join the 21st Century.
High quality 38 year old woman….. Right……
@ 4 yep. Nor is it any mans problem.
Here’s what a quality man does; bangs someone younger and hotter.
This just in:
I follow The Private Man on Twitter, and he wanted the J4G audience to know that he’s weighed in on the matter:
http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2014/07/25/courtship-lite/
He also says that he’ll be over to interact a bit with the J4G regulars, so stay tuned!
O.
I wonder what’s the optimum dating strategy for the high quality overweight basement virgin dweller who wants non string attached sex with hot girls
I’ll send him your way
And the women that are that age and alone need to start hunting down the feminists that put them in that predicament
With respect to feminists, it all starts with “What matters is what I want”. Then they learn too late that it is not exactly how it works. How does one teach women to avoid the hubris of their hot years?
After reading all of yesterday’s thread, I think people here object less to the idea that women expect men to “court”/invest than we do to EMK’s patronizing “man up and pick up that check” lecture, and his total lack of acknowledgement that many, many men have been DOING the “courting strategy” and getting absolutely nothing in the name of results.
“they want men who think like me, not like you. Men who don’t see paying for dinner as beta. ”
The false premise here is assuming that “men who see paying for dinner as beta” got that idea from reading the Manosphere or Maxim magazine or hanging out at the frat house or because they are misogynists or something.
What’s taught men that paying for dinner is beta is being treated like betas by women they’ve bought dinner for, and the broad evidence that a whole class of guys don’t need to invest anything to get a woman to go nuts for them.
There’s yet another false premise in there, too – that of dinner as an opening date. By the time you take a woman to dinner, the two of you should be either getting conjugal or sure enough you’re going somewhere that buying her a meal isn’t a big deal. (I tell guys to stay away from the dinner date not so much because of beta-bucks but because it’s a bad early-date frame – it’s stiff and low-energy and has limited opportunity to build intimacy. It’s weird how dinner has this cultural status as an ideal date idea when it’s one of the poorest options you could come up with.)
(Apparently in NYC, expensive dinners are a common and expected first date routine. I wouldn’t know but that sounds nuts.)
If EMK is expecting a guy to “invest” in a woman he’s practically never met without any knowledge of whether she’s going to have any compatibility or long-term payoff, he’s advocating a philosophy that’s both morally silly and pragmatically null.
But again, as someone said yesterday, it sounds like EMK is a natural, so the courting tactics added to his already-extant attraction, and he can’t imagine why it isn’t working for others.
Finally, I was really surprised by his haughty, I-am-so-much-better-than-you-losers tone, since he’s so dainty and well-spoken in his writings to women, and his “I’d tell my women to dump you guys” seems unusually hostile. It’s like we’re talking to Susan Walsh with a better haircut – the old lady used to say the exact same thing when we’d tell her the truth about the male perspective. Maybe there’s something about giving advice to bitter single women that warps your mind against any kind of male empathy.
The dating strategy for women of that age, Evan?
It’s fairly simple.
First, don’t seek men who you are not very viscerally/physically attracted to. Don’t date them. Don’t go to dinner with them. Don’t “try to grow into attraction” with them. All of that is bullshit. There are men your women are attracted to — those are the ones they should date, period. To do otherwise is to be cruel to the men. A corollary to this, and one which bears repeating, is that this/these men have to be in the same rough attractiveness zone as you are — otherwise you need to adjust your expectations and recalibrate, or move yourself into a different attractiveness zone — in other words, don’t pine for men who are out of your league in attractiveness, and be realistic about how attractive you are (as opposed to presuming you are a gorgeous princess whom every man on Earth would be privileged to even be in her presence).
Second, among the men who meet criteria One, screen for morals. You can do that through various proxies — family, friends, social background, etc. That means this: don’t date strangers about whom you and anyone else you know knows fuck all, but if you do, screen the crap out of them at the beginning of the process — yes, you can do it.
Third, once one and two are established, demonstrate actual attraction for the man. You are trying to win him, not vice versa. He is a man to whom you are deeply attracted, and you are trying to win him. Convince him that you are deeply attracted to him. (Note as a Christian I would not recommend using sex for this — there are many other ways this can be done effectively by an attractive woman).
Fourth, see how he responds. If you are looking for quality and morality, then see if he displays commitment traits in response to your display of genuine attraction on a visceral level (physical/sexual, not personality/interests/goals). If he does, then pursue him, and do everything you can to secure him, because that is a keeper.
—
This, Evan, is a good strategy. Not the bunk you are selling. And, yes, in fact there are Ivy Leaguers here who also earn middle 6 and are in successful relationships, but will have no truck with the bullshit nonsense you are peddling.
LOL @ ivy league and six figures
I do that with a GED. & fucked a couple of ivy league chicks. (Duke)
Emk is laying one the personal attacks and shaming launague. Typical feminist
Perhaps she should start by making her date sammiches.
“Y’all are contradicting yourselves. You want high quality feminine women to pursue you; what you aren’t grasping is that a high quality feminine woman doesn’t have to pursue you; all she has to do is wait for a guy to make the effort for her. If it’s not going to be you, that’s fine.”
GREAT NEWS!
Everything is great with the women, no man need heed any call to man up and marry then superannuates. (Could you stop the shaming calls by others?)
I wouldn’t care if some woman chased me, I wouldn’t feel threatened. I wouldn’t pick her purse or give her the run around. But then I wouldn’t be fussed about having a 38 year old woman (and I’m a decade on from that) in my life romantically. A woman of that age, that keen, has a damn agenda and it doesn’t take a genius to suss out what that is. And such women are renowned for being oblivious to any one else’s needs, wants, desires, ethics, morality least of all the man-unit. And that agenda has me as nothing but a legitimiser of the kids, likely provider (if she decides to stop working…what say do I get? SFA) and seed producer. Thanks, but NO thanks.
I had a woman pull the old ‘oops, I might be pregnant’ on me when she was 27/28. Immediate negative test and gone from my life. Women have no morals when they decide to have kids when younger, at 38? a man not determined to be a dad would be completely insane to trust such a woman. Mainstream society would back her every play even if suspicious of the realities. Run away.
“a high quality feminine woman doesn’t have to pursue you; all she has to do is wait for a guy to make the effort for her. If it’s not going to be you, that’s fine.”
Ah, but the alleged contradictions go both ways – if a HQFW just has to wait for a guy to make the effort for her (which appears to be the default behavioral strategy for women, then why do you have so many customers?
Also the strawman – as if the only options are “wait for HQFW to pursue you” or “play up the beta provider on date 1.”
Maybe she should find some hawt guy at the bar and have him impregnate her.
I can see both sides of it. Emk is trying to help women avoid the af mistake, it seems. That’s a good thing. As for a 38 yo woman deciding “it’s time” to get married and have kids ASAP, I have to agree w spawney that’s treating a man as an accessory not as her center. Plus, why wait so long? Sure women can and do have babies at that age but it’s not optimal and several of my close friends tried everything at that age and it still didnt work. Add potentially tens of thousands in $$$ and the stress of infertility on top of early marriage, too. Really? Can’t women see how that’s a hard sell and men are not being misogynists for saying so? I believe in love and marriage, but for the right reasons. This gal at 38 is just checking off boxes on her life script, not a good frame to be entering marriage. Please emk tell your readers they need to think of men and what they need and want. Not just what she does. That would be my advice. I hope the theoretical gal finds what she seems, but only after getting her head straight about what she brings, not just what she wants. Peace!
* seeks
a high quality feminine woman
Do such animals exist?
Ah, but the alleged contradictions go both ways – if a HQFW just has to wait for a guy to make the effort for her (which appears to be the default behavioral strategy for women, then why do you have so many customers?
Exactly.
Looking further into this, and at his site, it’s fairly clear that he is peddling the “secure a BB” strategy. When you look at it from that perspective, it makes perfect sense. The goal is “make a man jump through hoops so that he proves commitment to you (BB) before giving him what he wants”. The equation is woman exchanges sex for BB, and this is the formula to go about doing that effectively as a woman without getting played. Fair enough.
But the quality men don’t want to be BB. At least most men of any quality don’t. Men want to be the man she would sex if there were no such thing as money, kids, college savings and so on — just because she’s into him. That’s what men want. Not to be the “bigger and better BB”. So he’s peddling something that quality men don’t want, and then selling it as a way to attract quality men, when in fact what it attracts and retains is BB, which is a disappointment — both because the man is disappointing (it’s self-denigrating to be a mere BB for a woman)** , and because the woman is not visceral about the man. It’s a recipe for what it is trying to cook, but the meal it is trying to cook sucks.
** — Note, this isn’t to say that man who marries a woman who is viscerally into him does not get great satisfaction out of providing BB *as well*. That’s true of all men other than the true slackers. But no quality man wants to be chosen because he was a great BB. Evan’s strategy sets up that fail case to happen — it’s a failure of a strategy because of that.
Very restricted ROE you’re setting up here, Obsidian.
Why precisely should we be nice to him? He is throwing anti-Republican barbs at a website with a significant portion of conservatives. And then he actually says that he and his readership are better because they make more money and went to Harvard.
You’re asking me to ignore that? I can forgive the insult to myself, or rather not care about it. However his implicit assumption is an attack on my mother, sister, and wife, none of whom went to Harvard. They actually do all earn six figure salaries, though I certainly do not think that makes them better people than my Father, brother-in-law, or Brother (none of whom went to college, none of whom are making six figures).
These insults are merely to go unanswered?
Fine, if you insist.
Katz has built his foundation on a quick-sand assumption:
This is no longer true as an absolute rule, if it were EVER true. Katz, however, takes it as self-evident, and, indeed, were it true, it woud require a man to “court” a woman.
Attacking this “self-evident” assumption more or less undermines the entire argument.
Let’s be clear: our assertion is that MOST women will put in effort to be with a guy, as long as he is “hawt” enough.
Because of this, traditionally understood “courtship” is dead, dead, dead, and if you have to do it, is actually a useful sign in telling you that you need to run AWAY from a woman.
I daresay that’s the OBVIOUS deduction from Katz’s scenario. It simply does not compute that a high-quality woman who theoretically has men lining up around the block can be single at the age of 38.
Clearly, no “suitable” man has EVER approached her. Either she must lower her standards or put in more effort.
Both obviously contradict Katz’s implication that all a woman has to do is sit there. Clearly, that’s not enough.
Personal anecdote tells me women will put in effort, and will not require traditional “courtship” behavior to date them. One of my coworkers was invited on a first date with a guy she met at a Cubs game, ridiculously drunk at the time…on the date, he paid for the admission to the Museum they went to, but they had no food, and he “forgot” his wallet, so she had to pay for their evening drinks.
She ended up dating him for around 6 months, and she complained several times that he never bought anything for her.
He dumped her, by the way. And he didn’t really dump her, he just sort of faded out.
She is now with a guy that she met back in college. They did not so much as date, as “hang out,” and then stumble into a relationship.
There was no courtship involved there.
This is merely one example, but more or less is how a majority of relationships are formed in my social circle. This includes my wife, several of my groomsmen, several former coworkers, several friends, etc.
In almost all cases, the girl took significant steps in the initial proceess, almost immediately, and showed no doubts about their positive intentions and willingness to put skin in the game.
Therefore, traditional courtship is not necessary.
I would suggest it is actually counter-productive, but that’s not necessary to prove. All we need to show is that positive relationships with quality women do result from low-investment male strategies and that women will indeed go out of their way to try to seduce a man.
This is self-evidently true in my social circle and virtually all relationships started from this base. So that’s actually the DOMINANT strategy, and the true equilibrium.
Katz might suggest that this is because of our younger age or whatever, or that the women aren’t really quality and high self-esteem, but these No-True Scotsmen are NOT relevant.
So again, this:
is not true. If you position yourself as a quality guy, she WILL make an effort to talk to you, she will make it clear she is enjoying your company, and you do not have to make any significant investment in her.
It’s that simple.
Now, in some cases, we have talked about the whole Path 2 thing, and I would say don’t even bother until her perception of you shifts. You can’t buy desire.
As for a strategy for a 38 year old “high quality” woman who wants to marry and have children:
1. What Nova said.
2. Forget about having children. That train has left the station and it isn’t coming back. The best she will be able to do is marrying an attractive man.
@ yohami that made me lol!
“Design a dating strategy for a high quality 38 year old woman who wants to get married and have children.”
don’t wait until you are in your late 30s to find a husband. it’s too late. i’m not going to give some girl advice so that she can use some desperate loser as a sperm donor & beta bux. i hope she enjoyed riding the caulk carousel & rejecting all those acceptable men in her 20s. sweet sweet schadenfreude
Look if a woman wants my attention and I am not chasing her, she will have to chase me. If men are not chasing the women who sign up for mek’s hussle they are not the women men want. So they have to do the chasing.
I am always the chaser, never the chased ( lestwise until caputre). I’m simply not tall enough, or good looking enough or wealthy enough. Sooooo I could bwm about it or make approaches. These gals, they need to learn that lesson. If they were really high quality, odds are they’d be off the market.
For a man, being married or not is not a sign of his posistion in the smp.
“But if you came up with any other advice for 38 year old marriage and child oriented superstars, you weren’t thinking of their needs; you were thinking of yours.”
Good Lord above! let not the man look after his interests! That serveth not the blessed feminine imperative!
1) Women need to understand that men do have their own interests
a) because it might make them emulate humanity more closely
b) they might understand men better and thus (perhaps) be able to be a better partner to a man
2) Men need to understand that women do not care about da menz, or their interests. Granting him seeding rights in the holy va-jay-jay (perhaps sacred-woo-womb) is supposed to be sufficient payment in order to requisition the rest of his life, earnings and pension.
Men, make sure that you put your interests first, because nobody else cares at all what they might be.
To srsly address EMK’s query, the hypothetical woman in question needs to clean up her premises a bit. First is that having her own kids is going to be very hard without beating the odds or expensive medical treatment. That’s just reality. Second, the male dating pool is pretty picked clean of the conventional “catches” at that point.
She’s going to have to address a handful of “typical” cases – one is, of course, divorced men and divorced fathers in their 40’s, who have major financial and logistical commitments she’s going to come second to.
Another is guys who are late bloomers, they’ve lacked either the desire or social skill to land a long-term wife/partner earlier in life. (They have a major negative wrt preselection, but at her point in the game she’ll have to decide which parts of the dream man she’s willing to give up. I have a friend who was like this, he’s 40 now, just got engaged to a late-30’s woman.)
Then there will be guys who have no interest in (legal) marriage, for whatever reason. Maybe divorced, maybe recovering MGTOW, maybe his dad got fucked in family court or he’s just not interested in having a threesome with the governor. They are down for a long-term relationship, maybe even living together as a couple, but don’t feel the compulsion to tie the knot. I’m sure she’d tend to shame such a guy as bitter/fearful/etc, but as in the last case, she should think hard if having a monogamous non-married thing for the long haul is preferable to nothing at all.
So “design a strategy for this woman” has a large component of getting real about what’s a realistic expectation, then planning some tactical moves that are appropriate to those expectations. You’ll hear a lot of cackling around these parts for women who haven’t gotten it together before middle age, but kidding aside, we don’t do any favors deluding people as to their market value and market position.
Understanding her own playing space is as important to her success as finding and executing the correct moves.
” am always the chaser, never the chased…”
I really didn’t picture you as the chaste sort anyway, Sfcton.
(ba dum bump *ching*)
My husband has told me, hypothetically, he thinks that women who come up to men and proposition them needy and desperate. I don’t think he’d be interested in being chaste either. Assuming I were dead or heavily incapacitated, longterm.
If all she has to do is sit back and wait for the men she wants to pursue her, then why is she still single at 38? For that matter, if that is true why does EMK have a job, and why are we even having this conversation? Am I missing something here?
“Thus, courtship conveys the level of his seriousness about you.”
Putting aside our frank discussion about women’s reaction to courtship behavior (i.e. many women seem to be turned off by such “seriousness” – methinks EMK is confusing what his girls think they want men to do vs what actually gets them interested in a dude), the sentence above is a false syllogism. Men with mistresses spoil them with “courtship”/investment behaviors, some are dumb enough to flaunt their mistresses in public. High-roller playboys will flash tons of cash on women they have no intention of LTR’ing up.
I think EMK has a busted idea of the links between a man’s seriousness/long-term intentions and the man’s behavior towards the woman, probably because he’s been listening to his customers without the opportunity to see the other side of the story.
We’ve talked about this before – lots of women think of a player and they see in their mind a sleazy, nouveau-riche guy trawling singles bars with forward pickup lines. Quagmire from Family Guy plays on this meme. But in my experience, players tend to be affable, well-liked guys, who have good talent in building connection quickly, good timing in isolation/escalation, not shy about building a pipeline, logistically aware to avoid all the girls meeting each other, and willing to fail. IOW, they are good at seduction but they also enjoy spending time with women.
“high quality 38 year old woman who wants to get married and have children.”
LOL WUT?!?!?!
If she wanted kids and marriage she needed to start at 22-23. At this point the only options she has are cats and thirsty, thirsty, pathetic lower quintile men with no backbone.
Should have beat the crap out of whoever gave her that horrible advice to wait….no?
@Farm Boy
“What is this? A Kobayashi Maru test?”
*knuckle bump*
We should actually probably shut this thread down – we’re not going to change EMK’s mind, and so even though our logic is sound all we’re doing going foward is giving him more evidence to confirm his “m!sogynist1c l000ser guys” hypothesis.
Let’s be clear: our assertion is that MOST women will put in effort to be with a guy, as long as he is “hawt” enough.
Indeed.
The reason is obvious and staring Evan in the face (or should be).
The woman has no lack of men who want fuck her. Everyone knows that, including her, Evan and us.
The woman *does* have a lack of men to whom she is truly viscerally attracted and who want to both fuck and commit to her (and is worthwhile of herself committing to). That is, a man to whom she is viscerally attracted and who *also* brings BB. That’s a very small set of men — very, very small, especially for a 38yo.
Due to that, women will invest in that kind of man, and *should*, because he is a hot commodity — hotter than she is. If she is looking for the commitment of a high quality man, this is what she needs to do. Because a high quality man with options isn’t going to settle for being a BB to a 38yo unless she brings a LOT to the table in terms of raw, visceral attraction. He doesn’t need to do so, because he is a rare prize, and she needs to realize that. Again, this isn’t every professional mid6 who wants to *fuck* her, but it is the quality men. She needs to do more than look nice and be educated to get one of the in high demand quality men, especially at 38, and sticking to the script that worked in the 50s when the women being courted were all 21yo hotties is horrifically bad advice for his women customers, really.
@ Badger /39
Why shut it down?
If even one TAM (Typical American Male) sad sack finds this thread and by reading the blunt reality of our informed voices offset against his conditioning…AND he begins to search and serve his own interests other than that of the Feminist and Third Gender Primary….dude thats a win.
One more you save is one more you don’t have to fight.
@Yohami
“I wonder what’s the optimum dating strategy for the high quality overweight basement virgin dweller who wants non string attached sex with hot girls”
yeah…but…where’s the money in that bro?
I see what you mean; that is the perfect mirror in the male domain, but who saw any MSM soul searching serenaded by crying violins over that? ever?
Welcome to The Schadenfreude Hotel’s the world don’t give a shit party 38y.o. women wanting marriage and kids, it’s a brand new experience for you, but us men are plenty familiar with it. The bar is over there if you need a drink…don’t forget your purse, you’ll need it.
LOL
Well played ebul Liz
My thing is I know I am short and not hawt. So I worked what I have and do better then ok. Thats how you deal with reality. Reality is most women will never be into me for a million factors I have no ability or desire to change. Reality; my close rate with tall chicks is basically 0. I don’t waste my time on them any more. I do shit with Latino chicks ( they are into city slicks not country boys). I don’t approach them any more. Mek and crew they aren’t dealing in reality. The reality being high quality and available
“Design a dating strategy for a high quality 38 year old woman who wants to get married and have children.”
1: Be 20.
2: Be kind.
3: Be discernibly feminine.
4: Don’t be a cunt.
See? Four easy steps, and I repeated one just because it seems to be the major sticking point.
@ 36 willing to fail is key.
In England, a woman of thirty-eight years of age or over who was not married was designated a Spinster (of this Parish), that is to say was regarded as past marriageability and fit only for work i.e. spinning hence the term. This strikes me as entirely reasonable. No man should even be considering marrying such a woman for to do so would be to reveal that he is a man without options and if that is the case marriage should not be on his agenda.
Designing a system for women like that to marry is as if I – broke and homeless – should be asking for a package whereby I might marry a super-model. Delusional.
@FarmBoy #15
“With respect to feminists, it all starts with “What matters is what I want”. Then they learn too late that it is not exactly how it works. How does one teach women to avoid the hubris of their hot years?”
Does anyone here even remember? Where’s Anonymous aged 72 when you need him? Maybe his grandpa told him some tales from back in the day?
The men of similar age that these women are hunting for are too old to be that thirsty for their arse anymore*…bitter though that might be, such women need to look older, poorer, shorter, balder, or get cats, or go brave single mommy (screw society, she got her’s), or adopt.
*while there is no male menopause, I do believe there’s a point where most men start thinking with their big heads and start wondering whether marriage is worth the price of a ticket.
it’s a brand new experience for you
That is the crux of the problem, is it not? Modern women have faced no adversity, and therefore have no character.
Design a dating strategy for a high quality 38 year old woman who wants to get married and have children.
Since other regulars have already beaten me to the punch (and no doubt with responses every bit as ascerbic as mine would be, if not more so), I’ll just blanket cosign them all here in advance. I’ll also assume that the mods have already removed in advance the ad hominems that I didn’t post but normally would have.
Seriously? Get a grip, dude.
I wonder what’s the optimum dating strategy for the high quality overweight basement virgin dweller who wants non string attached sex with hot girls
I’ll send him your way
Yohami, ROTFLMAO
Design a dating strategy for a high quality 38 year old woman who wants to get married and have children.
I’ve got one as well. Design a career advancement strategy for a hard-working average IQ man with a GED who wants to be CEO of a Fortune 500 company.
Here is the problem. Options are not always unlimited, and as life marches on past choices influence future possibilities. I’ll use myself as an example. I have a MBA in finance from a highly ranked school. That said, at the age of 40, and given my current position, I’m a huge “underperformer” in terms of typical trajectory of someone from my program at my age. In all likelihood, it is too late to turn it around now. If I wanted a higher ranked management position, the first logical question to ask, and rightfully so, is why are you NOT there already.
If a woman is 38 and “attractive” and “high quality”, the logical question is why didn’t some guy wife her up already. I have a close family relative, just turned 36, she is attractive, looks much younger than her age, is smart, has a doctorate, and makes good money, but along with that is an obnoxious know it all bursting at the seams with all sorts of neuroses and shitty personality traits.
In poker, you play the cards you are dealt. You don’t play a pair of deuces preflop the same way you would a pair of aces.
The fact of the matter is at 38, this woman is likely to have fertility issues. A high value desirable man who is 38-40 who wants children is going to to go after 28 year olds, not 38 year olds. Now my wife and I are both 40, but we both knew we didn’t want children. If I had known that I probably wanted kids, we wouldn’t be together. This woman has a limited target market who is going to be interested in her for what she wants. If she can’t accept that reality, than you can’t develop a realistic strategy. The fertility issue at 38 is a major liability, let’s not bullshit here. Now if she has many compensating assets, there are probably some loving, decent guys who will marry her, and take a chance on the fertility issue. They are not likely to look like Mr. Big. She may have to consider men who are less attractive and successful for whom landing a 28 year old is not realistic.
My guess is though that ultimately naive hope sells better than stark pragmatic realism
Why do some people call EMK “MEK”?
What am I missing?
Someone find an appropriate meme picture, we’ve got excellent material here:
“Decries use of ad hominems” -> “Proceeds to call his opponents losers”
Did Rollo chime in on the other thread yet? I didn’t have the patience to read past 130 comments. EMK is not introducing anything substantive to the conversation, he’s just rolling out the usual shaming tropes that the manosphere has been dealing with ad nauseum (particularly by Rollo).
I get it – it is really difficult to let your unicorns die. Lord knows I made a fool of myself in the same way back on the “All women are insecure” post. In EMK’s case, his unicorn is making him money. Good for you sir, it would be much harder for me to question my beliefs if I had money riding on the line as well.
In any case, I do find it rather funny that the go to retort of the feminine imperative is “Well you probably can’t succeed with women because you are all misogynists!”
Interesting. If I am a misogynist now, and being a misogynist hurts your chances with women, then why could I only lose my virginity after I became a misogynist?
As for the “low quality woman” argument, she was a college aged Christian with a very pleasant personality who didn’t drink (not sure if she does now that she is 21) who helped pay for college by running her own graphics design company (granted, it was mainly friends and relatives giving her business). Can we get a falsifiable definition of what makes a “low self-esteem” woman versus what makes a “high quality” woman please? Preferably one that is not a tautology.
Why do some people call EMK “MEK”?
What am I missing?
Dyslexia?
I am successful with women because I am a misogynist. Its an asset not liability
Poor Mr. Katz…
You see Mark, you still suffer from your feminine-primary social conditioning, and this is reflected in your presumptions of what makes for a ‘Quality Woman':
This is why I laugh at the concept of the Quality woman. Don’t misinterpret that as a “women = shit” binary opinion. I mean it in the sense that most guy’s concept of a quality woman is an unrealistic idealization. There’s not a guy in the world who committed to monogamy with a woman who didn’t think she was ‘quality’ when he was with her. Even if she was a clinical neurotic before he hooked up with her, she’s still got “other redeeming qualities” that make her worth the effort. It’s only afterwards when the world he built up around her idealization comes crashing down in flames that she “really wasn’t a Quality Woman.”
The Quality Woman is defined by how well she fits a man’s conditioned ideal. After a certain age all women are Alpha Widows, or, progressively lose the idealization of embodying the Quality Woman. While I understand the frustration, there’s an eerily similar tone that men use when they bemoan the lack of Quality Women in the world that echoes women’s when they ask “what happened to all the real men?”
The only difference being that in girl-world a woman is entitled to a real man irrespective of her own quality, while a man is less of a Man for his complaints of her lacking those qualities.
I don’t envy the situation monogamy minded men in this era find themselves in. As we become a more and more connected society the indiscretions of a woman’s past will become increasingly more difficult to hide, much less temper. Whereas before, unless a woman had worked in porn, documenting her sexual and/or intimate past may have been an effort best reserved for private investigators. Now it’s as easy as reading her social media footprint archived for all to read.
This is tough on a guy sold on idealistic notions that his virgin bride is awaiting him somewhere in the world. That may be a bit binary for all but the most white knight of guys, but by order of degree, and with a measured prudence, I think it’s important for men to disabuse themselves of finding the virgin slut, who’ll only be his virgin slut.
And while I would never advocate a guy to hurry up and marry those sluts, the problem with this idealization is that men want to force fit the woman who most closely resembles his Quality Woman into that fantasy role. It becomes a psychological feedback loop – connect with a “Quality Woman”, discover her flaws, personal conditions and the decisions she made that resulted in them, then (after attempts at rationalizing them himself) disqualify her from the Quality Woman designation. The cycle comes full circle when her disqualification as a Quality Woman sets the environment for finding his next ‘jewel in the rough’.
The bad news and the good news of this is that, as connectivity and communication among men increases, so too do they realize that the Quality Woman is an impossibility even for the most gracious of women. Thanks to the rise of the manosphere we have a global consortium of men exchanging their individual experiences with women to compare and contrast with their own. The good part is it’s easy to generate a list of red flags to watch out for or read about the consequences men have suffered as a result of their blue pill existences. The bad part is that with that greater understanding comes the realization that even the best of women are still subject to hypergamy, the feminine imperative and the fem-centric environment they find themselves in.
A little bit of knowledge is sometimes dangerous – after a lot of this realization and the discernment that comes from it men are likely to have a very long list of prerequisites and red flags develop. I’m not saying men should surrender to the inevitability of marrying some raging former slut, but I am saying that an important part of unplugging oneself from the Matrix is letting go of the idealization of the Quality Woman. There are a lot of caring and nurturing former sluts, and there are pristine and chaste women only lacking the proper motivation to move them in a direction no one would ever expect of them.
Evan’s question is legit. This is a very real issue within a professionally successful female demographic who has pursued education and career with juggernaut-like dedication, but then finds the reproduction window closing rapidly and wants to switch lanes either fully (SAHM—probably a bit unrealistic these days in some ways) or partially (well-partnered working mother).
Much depends, obviously, on the 38yo’s attractiveness level, her willingness to allow for non-hot men—but otherwise desirable for an LTR—as mating choices, and her “lambda” or risk-tolerance. Call me jaded, but this has been my observation about real-world social dynamics: if the woman is an 8+ in hotness she can ignore anything said on this or any other discussion board and feel confident that she will land on her feet no matter what she does, to include serial infidelity.
Re: designing a dating strategy appropriate for her goals. So imagine two settings—“alpha” and “lambda”, with alpha indicating the degree to which a high standard of mate quality is required (hot, highly educated, physical badass, rich) and lambda indicating the ability to tolerate risk in the strategic search for alpha.
High Alpha, High Lambda—-can be done, take some risks
High Alpha, Low Lambda—cannot be done in this SMP without simply rolling the dice in a negative-expectancy game. Heartbreak awaits.
Low Alpha, High Lambda—high chance of success, but may appear that woman has “settled” and aggressively pursued a theoretically suboptimal mate
Low Alpha, Low Lambda—play it safe, but can be done.
This is simplistic and I am torturing these terms to make them fit the SMP, but as a starting point for strategy formulation for this woman we need to know if she prioritizes high “alpha” over low “lambda” (reward vs. risk). If someone prefers to use other terms to denote risk-return tradeoff dials, feel free to use them.
The risks here will generally entail the very real risk of being played and pumped-and-dumped by slick social operators who know they are hot and that they have many options, and the psychological toll of having to compete in a sexual-market arms race with a lot of other women who want the same outcomes and feel equally deserving of them. These risks are, however, counter-balanced by the risk that she may feel a great sense of time urgency and that this is no time for timidity.
In summary, I think we need three basic elements of information:
1) Her general hotness level, as determined *BY MEN WHO ARE ACTIVE PARTICIPANTS IN THE MATING MKT* (NOT BY OTHER WOMEN)
2) Her mate requirements (alpha)
3) Her tactical risk tolerances (lambda) in pursuit of strategic alpha
55 “there are a lot of caring and nurturing former sluts…”
Who are you, and what did you do with the real Rollo?
Beta bux is indeed real but it’s a losing strategy for all involved. A woman may convince herself, short term, but wo true attraction how long will that last? It’s not misogyny to say that.
Case in point, one of my older daughter’s friends from school. Her mom was a former high power career type. She fully admitted to me that she decided in her late 30s exactly what is described here: time to marry and have kids. She fully admitted to me she was “meh, he’ll do” about her husband. Now she’s a sahm, two kids, bored, and I wo set how long is that going to last? Thing is IMHO her husband is a great guy. Loves to travel, cook, great job, into amature BBQ cook offs on the side, dreams of starting his own li e of sauces and rubs. A cool guy. And she’s rolling her eyes at him.
I sat there thinking, “wow, he deserves so much more than meh.” Men are right to hold out for it. And to s*it test to make sure they are t a bb mark. If I were a guy, I would. And women too should also be honest w themselves. Who wants to feel “meh” about their husband? Not me. Of course every marriage /ltr has its “meh” moments but if its mostly “meh?” Pass. My .02. Ladies, you will regret it and its not fair to anyone.
@Nem
‘mec’ is a guy / geezer / bloke in French. (I doubt google has it, ca c’est un truc triste pour les mecs et les femmes ici)
I don’t think that’s it, but it’s all I got…
HTH
“I want to learn what to do to land a good man and have his children” is a conversation you have with a 13-15 year old girl, not a 38 year old spinster. The fact that anyone needs to point that out is a stark example of societal collapse.
J’ai passé trois ans en France mais je n’ai jamais utiliser un truc qui fait l’autotraduire des mots anglais…ils sont les vrai faux-amis. On n’apprends rien sauf pour les mots qu’on utilise meme seul.
(sorry about the missing accents, but life is too short and mon clavier francais est disparu / peut-etre on peut utilise “s’a caché”? )
Lol spawney! I could actually make that out, maybe I learned more in French class than I realize! Salute!
Why? Roissy already did 4 years ago:
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/08/12/the-difficulty-of-gaming-women-by-age-bracket/
Oh, wait, you meant a design a dating strategy for her?
Show up naked, bring beer.
As little regard as I have for women troubles in general I have even less for the “problems” of the UMC. Its 0 for UMC women. The whole system is set up to benefit those people. Otherwise excellent BB
@ 58 good girl darling
@ scfton being chased, I kinda picture you more in the see one you like and you are stuffing her in a sack and taking her home kinda way! Caveman style! (Liz, you may want to get a peep hole installed in your door and watch your back, I think scfton is not above considering married women kidnappable just the same as any! He’ll add ya to the collection!)
And what’s this about wanting apple pie? Or were you drinking apple pie yesterday? I would not mind some apple pie myself! Cheers!
@Badger – re: “shut the the thread down, we won’t convince him”
You set too high a goal for your discourse. Aim not to convince your opponents, but to plant the seeds of doubt and strengthen your arguments in the fire of his rebuttals.
You can never expect to win someone over in the moment…but your words may echo in his mind for years to come until he finally realizes the error of his ways.
@Bloom
hopefully you missed the cock-ups therein…ones that I missed until after pressing submit…VDM*
*Vie De Merde (shitty life) en anglais on dit FML (fuck my life)
Actually it’s a fun site to practice your frenglish (yes! the real French word for what us anglos call franglais) on.
http://www.viedemerde.fr/
par example
“Aujourd’hui, je m’arrête devant un magnifique panorama. La touriste à côté de moi monte sur une butte pour prendre une photo, mais perd son équilibre. N’écoutant que mon courage, je l’attrape par le bras et l’empêche de tomber. Elle m’a engueulé parce que je n’avais pas rattrapé son appareil photo. VDM”
ungrateful ratbag…he saves her life but she bitches at him for not catching her camera too (hope that’s right :0 )
The funny thing is that Evan does give some good advice to girls. i even sent a college friend of mine one of his responses to a letter because it was as if my friend had written the letter to marc.
my friend was a VP, 39, pretty face, etc. but she didn’t follow his advice or mine. instead she kept blaming men for all her problems, whining about it on FB until i de-friended her. she refused to take responsibility or action to improve her personal life.
& girls don’t just go out on dates for free meals sometimes they date so they can write stupid blogs: http://walkinsauce.tumblr.com/
I am saying that an important part of unplugging oneself from the Matrix is letting go of the idealization of the Quality Woman. There are a lot of caring and nurturing former sluts, and there are pristine and chaste women only lacking the proper motivation to move them in a direction no one would ever expect of them.
I like your stuff in general, I think you know, but I can’t agree with this, because it reflects a kind of moral nihilism that is itself the acid that is eating away at the issues we are coming to grips with. Pragmatic? Sure, but nihilism is pragmatic in the short term by definition. It isn’t moral, however. I realize that this isn’t shared by many guys, who have also embraced nihilism, but frankly that’s as much of a problem as the FI is.
Well it appears she’s been waiting for a bout 38 years now…
Badger in #16 pretty much hits every point I’d make. And I’d also like to bang on the “if men are lining up for her why does she need dating advice” drum.
As to being more constructive with actual advice I’m going to cite Badger in #33. But I don’t know how not self-serving it is since Badger’s advice amounts to “give an average guy like me a chance.” I’m invisible to EMK’s client. Not sure I can say anything that wouldn’t be self-serving.
I read what rollo is saying as Desiree or Angelique, take your pick, either could work out, and he ain’t judging either way. But I could be off there.
I agree the idea of finding a woman completely untouched by the tainted smp is pretty unrealistic unless one is shopping in closed religous sects w no access to pop culture, TV, music, or the Internet.
@Bloom
)
you see how I manly resisted utilising a little french for all these recent days of your canoodling with l’urse de ‘fuzz’? (
mais si on ajoute un peut d’alcool…et attends quelque minutes…et voila! ca commence!
(Sue me, it’s a blue sky day and it’s pushing 20:00)
And actually scfton I wouldn’t mind cooking up some apple pie w you to learn the trade but of course there’s the whole risk of having to come wi closer than half a continent to you to do so and I am not thinking that would be wise! Us, I am sure fuzzie would not approve. Unless fuzzie would like to escort me, then I might be ok….
So she is a “high quality” woman who is 38, and she is suddenly very interested in family and children?
Translation- She is a former carousel rider whose looks are fading fast and thus her carousel riding days are rapidly coming to an end and she is now looking for a chump beta male provider to carry her through the next 10-15 years of her life.
If family and children were truly important to her she would have been made finding a man and starting a family one of her main priorities in her early twenties. She clearly treated it as an afterthought.
I consider myself a quality man at 27, and I am not interested in any woman in her 30s, because her best years are behind her and she brings all the baggage of her 20s and 30s with her, baggage that does not even remotely interest me.
The best years of my life are right now and up ahead, if I am going to make a life with a woman and give her the best years of my life, then I want the best years of her life. If she is going to be with me during my most productive and lucrative years then I want her during her most beautiful/energetic/fresh/etc years. I don’t want some used up former carousel rider.
In short, I do not believe that this 38 year old woman is a “high quality” and “family oriented” woman.
* plus
Cheers spawney!
When reality sets in for the modern career woman and they realize that the hot guy train has left the station and it ain’t ever coming back. You’ll see them suddenly becoming pet owners–the little purse dogs or a whole gaggle of cats. They always say that these pets are their children and I laugh my azz off. Children don’t need to see a vet and they probably won’t eat your dead body should you kick the bucket in your crib. Funny shyt , man..funny shyt.
But women will still blame men for their predicament and claim that it’s not fair that older men can wait and wait to get married or father kids. Perhaps if they acted like reasonable, SANE people instead of spoiled brats with entitlement issues, people would shed a tear for them.
Hey, it’s hard to feel sorry for folks who get busted by a small pair that becomes a monster once the flop comes, when they’ve been getting pocket aces every other hand. And modern women get aces all the freaking time and then complain when someone else manages to win a hand or two.
It ain’t rocket science: Women need to be serious about dating when they’re young and fertile and not waste time or even bother riding the rollercoaster. Ride less crank and keep your body count as low as possible. But nooo..look around you. Most women, especially the career women always want some cat with more money than Bill Gates, who looks like Denzel or Tom Brady and is willing to cook and rub her feet for hours on end. And they want to bang as many of these hot, rich men as they possibly can but then want to be treated like virginal good girl/wife material. Get the hell out of here..
Women aren’t men–you can’t be a female and be out on the “dating” market into your late 30’s, unless you’re divorced or widowed. That’s some bullshyt and anyone who says otherwise has a financial interest in keeping your dumb azz single and hoping for some prince to ride in and save you.
“Design a dating strategy for a high quality 38 year old woman who wants to get married and have children.” Ha! Good luck with that one.
@ 65
Ton loves the chase. I am not upset at all that chicks don’t approach me. ( unless you count ioi’s as some sort of stealth approach. Those I get on occasion)
Fuzzie? Pert sure I put the best offer on the table…..
Anyrate, I married a virgin. Only big, I’d like to do that different of my life
re: “Be a giver and ye shall receive in return.”
From God. The opposite from women.
AVFM has just used this, but I’ve linked to it before…
does this ring any bells over diagnosing women’s issues and the thanks a man gets?
It’s a lot more relaxed when the guy just blithely nods along with the neurotic woman…just sayin’. Men cause themselves a lot of aggro trying to help women who don’t wish to be helped just commiserated with, just like her
realfemale friends do@ scfton not sure I understood that but maybe better not to ask!
Re: design challenge for 38 yr old woman.
A bit of personal background first. After getting divorced upon at age 30, most of the dates I was able to get were blind setups from other women. Almost uniformly, these first-date-only women were disappointed and therefore disappointing. But, eventually, I wooed and married a 39 yr old woman who had decided men were eevviill and had not been on a date in fifteen years, and we had a child.
If there is one thing I have learned in my many decades of STEM education and outreach, it is that inquiry and design are intertwined. So, I have to begin with some inquiry. Why is THIS woman high-quality and not other women? Why did she put off her life decisions so terribly that it’s past the 11th hour and her sunset is upon her? Why is she so unwilling to consider any strategy that is 100% about HER needs and nobody else’s?
I’ll assume some response to these questions and then I’ll complete my design process by rofl.
Spawny,
“yeah…but…where’s the money in that bro?”
That’s the market PUAs are catering to? – how to start banging hot babes TONIGHT without leaving the comfort of your basement!
the whole point of game is to learn what women really want, rather than what men think women want or what women say they want. a lot of guys really can’t take the truth because the truth hurts. the truth is that women do not want in men what men want in women. so now we men need to work on improving those aspects of ourselves that actually do attract women. things like confidence, power, money, career success, etc.
so it’s the same idea for women. girl game truth can also hurt, but you just gotta deal. dating strategy for women could not be simpler. try to be what men actually want, not what you want them to want. in a nutshell, pretty, not fat, charming, sweet, feminine, not insane. that’s it. if you are unable to be pretty, then just do the best you can and try to make up for it in the other departments.
p.s. men could not care less about your career success, education, income, etc. don’t worry about that stuff.
#63 re: “She will acquiesce easily and gratefully to sex with very little game, as long as you don’t look like a grandpa.”
I beg to differ about the looks. But, maybe we have different views of what “very little” game may be.
I wish I could get paid for all the time I spend here. But I don’t. So back to work!
#12 re: “Here’s what a quality man does; bangs someone younger and hotter.”
Thou hast the hammer. However, I will take it up and hurl it at the possible rejoineder: “Well, yeah, ok, I understand that, even though I don’t like it. How do I get him to *marry* me even if I let him bang someone younger and hotter?”
And I have an issue with this:
“Ask guys out? Call them regularly between dates? Make the plans? Pick up the check? Make the first move? Have sex without commitment? Ironically, your comments would suggest women do this to demonstrate their value to you. This is prototypically masculine behavior.”
So the “challenge” is to come up with a strategy for older women to do more of the same “just show up” tactics. Ummm…yeah.. right.
Now about the masculine issue in the quote. These ladies have worshipped at he cargo cult masculinity alter their entire lives, let be what they covet to understand what it is they’ve misunderstood.
They have careers, educations and trappings of successful men. They have equality. It’s too late to choose being a feminine woman. Sorry. So very very sorry.
But hey you know what they never would have deigned to date a blue collar guy like me in the first place. Which means I’m out of this discussion since it’s impossible for me date assortatively, and these women care more about appearances than substance anyway. I wanted a wife in the old fashioned build a family sense, not the create a Potemkin society sense.
#20 re: man-unit.
Who will think of the man-unit? Who? Who? goes the cry through the Earth. Will you? asks the little owl. Will you concern yourself about the man-unit?
#90 re: cargo cult.
That was a good nail in there, dude. This is exactly the right frame here: EMK has decided we should go along with his cargo cult and design a landing process for a “high quality” male jumbo jet amidst the shrubberies infesting these laydees’ 100′ swampy landing strip.
#39 @Badger
He’s not the only blogger going on the “m!sogynist1c l000ser guys” train.
The “demographic” served by those mockers really is among the most pampered and spoiled in human history. And anything realistic, like “Why did you wait till 38 to start looking? Now you may need to compromise…” would be seen, as you know, a bummer. Bad for business.
But it’s like the Kate Bolick situation: “that’ll never be me”…
And then one day you find ten years have got behind you.
No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
Just to synthesize and collate the already excellent designs by others for our hypothetical EMK 38 year old “high quality” feminine woman who wants to get married and have kids.
1. AGREE ON DEFINITIONS OF “HIGH QUALITY”. Our intrepid woman’s definition of “high quality” is probably not the target man’s definition of “high quality”.
Woman’s definition of “high quality feminine woman”: professional degree(s), accomplished in field, high earner, ambitious, hard worker, well traveled, has lots of “life experience” (i.e. has had a fair amount of sex with more than a few men and less than a lot of men, all of which men were very attractive to her).
(In other words, the very reasons why she is 38 years old and wants to marry and have kids.)
The target man’s definition of “high quality feminine woman”: Has kept most of her looks. Still in good shape, is slender and trim. Has domestic skills and is willing to use them to care for a man and a home. Loving, kind, patient, cheerful, caring, nurturing. Has sexual skills. Total and complete sexual availability. Has low expectations.
(When considering the prototype target man for such a woman, commenter Buena Vista immediately comes to mind.)
The very first thing Ms. 38 needs to do is jettison her definition, and adopt HIS definition.
2. GET REALISTIC. The pool of men who fit her bill is very, very small. Children? Out of the question. Legal marriage? Could happen, but unlikely given the pool of target men.
3. CONSIDER THE VARIABLES. Your success will vary widely depending on:
a. Your attractiveness (measured by your looks and weight, and by little else)
b. Your risk tolerance
c. What else, other than appearance, you have to offer the target man
d. The pool of target men in your immediate area
e. Your competition
4. CONSIDER THE TARGET POOL’S CHARACTERISTICS. The target man: High value. High status. Attractive. Probably sexually experienced. Options like you wouldn’t believe. Fatherhood? Not a chance. Will not put up with one ounce of shit from you or any other woman. Has zero tolerance policy toward relationship drama.
5. DATE ONLY MEN YOU ARE VISCERALLY SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO. Do not date beta providers when you’re not immediately viscerally and physically attracted to them. Do not date them, do not accept date requests from them, do not hope that you will “grow into being attracted” to them or because you think you “should “ be attracted to them. You won’t. It won’t work.
6. CONSIDER ALTERNATE ARRANGEMENTS. Legal marriage? Possibly, but maybe not. Are you open to long term cohabitation?
7. DEMONSTRATE ATTRACTION AND VALUE TO HIM. MAKE CLEAR YOU HAVE SOME SKIN IN THE GAME. You will have to show him and give him unmistakable IOIs. You have to demonstrate your value to him. The burden of proof and the burden of going forward is on you to convince him of your attraction and value to him. The burden of proof is NOT on him to demonstrate provider bona fides, or much of anything else, to you.
#45 yes, but will to power even keyer.
The correct strategy is beta bucks. Find a man whose has not had much experience and is insecure because he was rejected when he was younger, and hasnt realized his current value. Nag the shit out of him and convince him that his manhood depends on catering to your every wish. Get over the repulsion his submission makes you feel by making a mistep or two, AKA fuck a hotter dude you shouldnt have. Get pregnant, doesnt matter who’s the father. Get the beta bucks to commit and step up to the plate. Secure him by leaving your job. Give him some nice moments like when you allow him to take pictures of your happy pregnancy and your wedding. Try to have sex with him sometime, specially after you made him buy you stuff and you made him jump around enough hoops. Then of course divorce his ass when you realize you’d rather keep fucking mr. hawt and you’re a fish whose never needed this bicycle to begin with. Oh you’ve been so misguided, who’s to blame? why cant men just be more satisfactory to exploit?
#55 re: “pristine and chaste women only lacking the proper motivation to move them in a direction no one would ever expect of them”
Now there’s a design challenge I’d enjoy winning!
She can also find a 60yr old who has kids already.
Or a 45yr old lesbian with two cats.
I think he makes very valid points. The caveat is that he’s also very selective with the women that he reaches out to.
Note that he’s not talking about women in general because he really can’t have much experience with lower-class women. As he pointed out, he’s an upper-crust kind of guy. He dated online for several years, but it’s a fair bet that he was very specific about the kind of women that he was going out with even then. Nobody with an Ivy League education is going to hunt for trollops in the sewers, even for fun.
As such, it’s very easy to say that a man treating a woman with courtesy and chivalry is going to attract women that are feminine and graceful. When you float in those circles, the upper echelon of society, there is, like it or not, a certain element of good breeding. And a woman that’s hunting for a husband from that realm is going to know there are certain expectations that she needs to live up to.
Remember, he’s admitted to meeting two of the three requirements women have been taught to seek in a long-term mate. He’s wealthy and well-education, and reasonably attractive. He might not be a heart-throb, but he’s also not Quasi-modo. Not as rich as Bill Gates, but still very capable of providing a princess lifestyle reminiscent of Sex in the City.
Down here at my level, women are altogether different. They want to be treated like a queen, but they don’t want to act like a queen. They are not well-educated, polite, well-mannered or on a good track with their chosen careers.
A funny example: A long-time buddy of mine who is reasonably handsome and has a good job (city employee with excellent pay and benefits) was caught cheating on his live-in girlfriend. They’d been in a relationship for over a year, and he genuinely liked her as a person. The downside is that she absolutely doesn’t want to be pregnant or have children, and the only sex they have is 100% on her terms. So he went outside of the relationship to find sex when and how he wanted it.
When she confronted him, he simply pointed out the fact that while he liked having her around, the world wasn’t all about her. He wanted sex on a regular basis, not twice a month and only if she’d been wined and dined. He wanted a wife, not a room-mate. He wanted a partner, not a parasite (which is very much what she was).
She was thinking that she could live under his roof (she moved in with him), but not cook, clean, manage or do any of the other wifely duties. She got him to spend tons of money on her, dote on her, and pay all the bills. But she didn’t really give anything back in return.
He makes $16/hr and top pay for his job is $21/hr. He gets incredible benefits and a wonderful retirement plan. With OT and Holidays, he made almost 70k last year.
She, otoh, makes $9.50/hr and has a potential top pay of only $11/hr. Her chances of moving into management at the women’s clothing store is slim.
The moral of the story: instead of looking at him like he was a god, treating him wonderfully and doing everything she could to keep him happy with her, she treated him like a disposable resource. She saw that she had zero responsibility in the relationship and sponge off of him…. and he would never get rid of her.
That’s how women down on my level think, especially if they are reasonably attractive. But some would have us act all respectful and chivalrous towards them? Why? Why do they get all the good, but have no responsibility themselves?
If you want me to act like a knight in shining armor, you need to act like a Lady.
p.s. men could not care less about your career success, education, income, etc. don’t worry about that stuff.
This is what Katz needs to be POUNDING into his clients’ heads. He wouldn’t dare, and for one very essential reason: most of his clients have nothing else BUT these attributes to offer. Things that matter to men have never been on these EmpoweredWomen’s[TM] radar screens, let alone any kind of priority. Were they forced to make such things a priority, they’d be dead in the water without a liferaft. Katz knows this, which is why he won’t touch it with a 50-foot pole. The guy’s gotta eat, and he’ll starve to death telling this kind of truth to his clients.
EMK is
just Susan Walsh with a penis – Build a Better Beta.
Giggles loves her some Katz too.
If she hadn’t been busy writing product reviews for her advertisers this week Giggles wouldn’t have been late to the show with her ‘mee tooo’ post.(Editor’s Note): Alright folks, let’s not get off-topic. Please refrain from mentions of anyone other than those directly pertaining to the topic. Thanks!
“Be a giver and ye shall receive in return.”
From God. The opposite from women.
If someone ever publishes a “100 Greatest Sayings of the Manosphere,” this will be in the top ten.
#99 re: The Trollop Hunt
(herein would have followed some doggerel inverting the usual idea of The Fox Hunt. Instead of dressing up with Societee to prance around, one dresses down to slum around)
“But happy an’ glad, until I die,
I ‘m not on Societee!”
38 & Special
Thank me later, Just run with it for now.
#101
I take it you didn’t win the $100 AMEX gift card?
They have careers, educations and trappings of successful men. They have equality. It’s too late to choose being a feminine woman. Sorry. So very very sorry.
Also known as pissing, puking, and shitting in the hard bed you’ve made for yourself after an endless round of hard partying, just knowing that you’ll not only be able to change sheets later, but get a whole new bed. But then you discover that the linen closet is bare and that only maker and seller of bedroom furniture in town has gone out of business, leaving you to wallow in the “memory” of your ill-thought-out cboices.
I would point out that Obs is right in that EMK does tend to tell women softly at least what they need to hear. For instance:
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-tips-advice/why-are-women-expected-to-date-men-with-a-lower-educational-level/
I don’t think it is fair to say he’s full on pandering to women from a total failure to grip reality. He deserves to be beat up about this courting post but he’s not a full on hukster.
@107
“EMK does tend to tell women softly at least what they need to hear”
Softly, and very carefully, and with lots of “those bad men!” and “you deserve better!”.
He’s not the only blogger doing so. There are variants where the advice is also what women need to hear: “Start looking seriously (like it’s your job) by 25…look for guys a handful of years older who are the commitment types…etc”. But it’s in the fine print, buried in the “all those men who want to have a choice in the matter are all misogyinists!”
The bicycle, after all, does get a choice in the matter. And if the choices are only “high quality 38 year old woman who wants kids”, well, “why bother?” becomes more and more appealing…
#107 re: sales. to wimminz
The best (gay male) hairdressers tell the rich women who want to waste another $200 on a two-hour hair treatment because the one last week left them feeling over-treated: “Oh, honey! You look aMAZing! But, we could lose this, and add that, and then you’ll feel cLASsic, darling, not old. In fact, Jim-jim was a dear and left this sample I can let you have at my cost, around $50 extra cost, and …”
Haven’t read the comments, but I have no beef with Evan’s advice for women.
It’s no different than the HUS advice for women 10-15 years younger.The problem is with the “men must” part of it. No, we don’t.
I like this: “I was a very successful online dater for ten years. I married incredibly well at age 36. My wife is a stay at home mom and certainly not my sugar mama.” I’d ask Evan how he’d advise a typical man, to have 15 years of sexy fun, and then settle down at 36. Did the “men must” part apply to him while he was “dating”? Can we have fun like you?
Does it really take 15 years to settle down? No, because being a “successful online dater” is code for “banging lots of women” when “lots ” is not PUA hyperbole, but serial monogamy punctuated by flings and casual here an there. Live life!
But that’s not his bag.
Of course, I married far younger than 36. I had my third kid by then. I wouldn’t want to have my first at 40. But if children are not in your life plan, then hey, marry late, have lots of fun.
Fun rules!
(Editor’s Note): Please refrain from discussing anyone or anything not directly pertaining to the actual topic. Thanks!
XNY! Good to see you around! How’s the kid??
@ yohami you are KILLING me!
OMG it’s as if YOU READ MY VERY MIND. Oh wait, you aren’t talking about me. Whew. I still am a special snowflake. Thank goodness! It isn’t about me…my happily ever after is just going to show up and put a ring on it. Love me just as I am. Any day now. Yep, yep! Hope he likes near train wrecks. Whoops, did I say that out loud? Wait, it’s ok because I am a diva. Deep breath. Ok chant it and look in the mirror, “I am a diva, I am a diva, I am a diva.” Put on my proud slut shirt. Call all my go girls. They confirm I am a diva. I am a diva. It’s those nasty old boys. They are to blame. Why wouldn’t they want me even though I am loaded with debt from my me, me, me lifestyle despite my degree from Harvard and my six figure income. Oh wait, where did that wall come from? Ouch! Slam. Bounce. “I am a diva. I am a diva.” Any day now…in the meantime I can troll back through all my alpha “boyfriends,” you know, “hook up” nudge nudge, wink, wink. But I am not like “that.” My tru wiv is just around the corner. Whew.
Back to looking at the live cam at the cat shelter…la la la…it’s all going to just come together. Cause I am a special snowflake. Those boys are LUCKY to get me. They just don’t know a quality woman when they see one. Or how to treat one right. I am too good for them. Dumb boys. Too bad I need one to have babies…
Men who see courting a woman (i.e., paying for dinner) as a potential sexual transaction should just see prostitutes instead of wasting their time and the time of decent women looking for a committed relationship.
What’s the point?
(Editor’s Note): Please refrain from making the same point over and over. If no one has addressed your point it is possibly due to your being obtuse. Please stop and move on. Thanks!
#3 from first of your EMK faves: “by definition, 95% of men are wrong for you”
Granted, out of context. But still, prima facie evidence that he goes along with the feminine imperative frame.
Bloom, haha
@OTC
Doing great (both the kid and myself)! With the boy running around like crazy during the day, he sleeps very soundly now at night. Have actually been able to read and catch up and post again…
I’ll take EMK’s challange. This is a strategy based on one part blue collar and one part gold digger. What do they have in common? They pick from their social group. The most successful couples come from either a work situation or a close social group.
Why? It’s called trust. Let’s face dating for relationships is a vetting process. History , compatibility, personality etc… In a work setting or a tight knit social group you have tow vetting processes working for you: 1. You get to observe the person in question over a long period of time 2. The others in your circle can provide first hand information about the person. So even before the first date most of your questions have already been answered through crowd sourcing.
This provides a certain level of comfort with the opposite number on both sides because he/she knows you too.
So if I’m a 38 year old “high quality” female looking for a certain type of man, I’d place myself in presence of such men. Location! Location! Location! Upscale churches. Charity organizations. Floor seats at sporting events. College booster clubs. Professional Associations…etc. Anywhere your target man is likely to be in abundance.
I would pair this with my strengths as a woman. If I couldn’t cook I wouldn’t do the wine/food tasting circuit. If I’m 5 or a 6 nerdy type I’m hanging at user groups and SF conventions. Match yourself to the crowd let the environment work for you.
Pick carefully. Doing it this way you are actually painlessly sorting your prospects. You are doing dating work without dating. You establishing intimacy and familiarity before formal dating AND without a sexual commitment. You give him a chance to do the same without his wallet being involved> A man is much more willing to invest in a woman that has been vetted by observation and his peers. I’d dare say 70% of marriages come from these two groups…ijs
OMG it’s that dumb guy Mike again. My “friend” who said he liked me but OMG are you serious, I am a DIVA! Luckily he’s willing to listen to me go on and on. No that I would ever date him. Even though he’s helped me move 5 times and gave me money for my rent once and shows up every time I ask and we sometimes go out to dinner, you know, “as friends.” I wonder why he doesn’t have a girlfriend? Oh well, who cares. “Hello, Mike? OMG. You won’t believe all of this…”
(45 minutes f self absorbed droning) “Oh anyway Mike, dinner? This weekend? Well I would but you remember Guido right, that guy who I met at the bar and he called me several times and then he must have lost my number like he said when he called last week out of the blue, and of course he’s secretly totally in love with me. So anyway, I know we didn’t get to talk about you at all but I need to get going. Bye!”
I am a diva, I am a diva, I am a diva…
(a week later) Damn Guido. He’s too astupid to recognize what a catch I am. His loss! Tick tock tick tock. I need to get married and have a baby. Maybe that whole “love” thing is a crock. I mean, look at Mike. He’s a nice uy. He’s got a good job. I could learn to like him (shudder)
“Hey Mike, what are you doing this weekend? Want to hang out?”
I’m rubbing off on Deti, him using the term bonifides and all
I also want to point out how mek defines manhood; by handing out cash, prizes and warm fuzziness to women. If I define manhood he would never measure up.
@ 95 everything I am and have done nothing rest on that and the willingness to go down swinging for a knockout.
“Hey Mike, what are you doing this weekend? Want to hang out?”
No no, you’re a lady, dont ask him out.
Instead shame him for not poping that ring already.
(Seven years later) “So Mike, I know we are married and have kids and all that but I really just need to find myself. I feel like I have lost myself in all this, you know, stay at home mom time and suburban lifestyle we can barely afford on your salary. It’s bumming me out. Plus Guido was in town last week, and I met him for lunch and…”
re: This goes out to all you high-quality women out there. There’s just so *many* of you dears! And all so high-quality, too! You know who you are, don’t you. C’mon, you can say it: “I’m a HIGH … (he pauses to point the microphone to catch the muttered echo from the packed, elbow-to-elbow and waist-roll-to-waist-roll audience) … high … QUALITY … quality …WOMAN! Whoo! Lemme hear you. Yes, YOU!”
At the funeral, one of her older friends “dressed up” by wearing an Elvira or Vampira sort of dress, with her cleavage pushed up-up-and-away and the long skirt destroyed by a buttock-high slit that was much more peek than boo. And she was one of the classier ones. At least she might not have taken a safety pin, offered to “fix” her destroyed dress, as a facial accessory.
But you know, if I were a guy, I’d be all over that! (Not!)
(Bloom hears 10,000 more guys who were waffling shuffle over to the MTGOW camp…)
malignorance
(btw I am self-editing believe it or not. My output is a sleeping top highly filtered compared to the caroming dervishes you could be subjected to)
Oh that’s right Yohami, make him think it’s his idea! More plausible. Check!
#125 One of the *many* (100+) youngish women who decided to wear tank tops or bikini tops or bandeau tops w/ or w/o navel studs to the church to show their respects, or show their other things, wore a man-style black wife-beater with the straps down. Probably the better to highlight her biggest tat from her wrist to her neck, but at least it was black, so it showed some thought. Maybe.
Are we relating more personal anecdotes?
One of my closer female friends, a quirky nerd-esque girl, has recently jumped onto Match. She worked as a temp at my Fortune 50: me and a group of young men met her because she came up and introduced herself (probably the only girl I have seen introduce herself to non-hawttttttt men, ever).
My co-worker remarked that she seemed, well, normal at the time. Perhaps a bit nerdy (quirky), but amiable and, of course, restricted.
Anyways, she recently started her Match account, and has three different dates set up for this weekend. I checked through some of the pictures of the guys she messaged: only one could even be described as average-looking.
Her last “date” was indeed a “hang-out”, and she did describe herself as annoyed by that hang-out term…but was that really the problem?
Or was the real problem that he met her at the bar, established no rapport, and just watched the Cubs game the entire time? He transitioned back to his place, and thought he was getting some nookie, but only put on a movie (still no establishing rapport), but wrapped her arm around her (making her uncomfortable with the total lack of rapport).
Essentially the main problem is that he had crap-ass dating skills, not that he wasn’t forward. Telling him to buy her dinner wouldn’t have fixed anything, because he’s boring as hell.
She has mentioned another guy, that she met at a restaraunt. She initially liked him, and described him as really cute…now she is saying he seems too innocent for her, and her brand of humor, so she is freezing him out and isn’t answering any of his messages.
So, how is asking her out on a formal date, supposed to help HIM?
Now, what about the THREE guys she is going out on dates with this weekend?
Should they be asking her out on “formal dates” cause intentions will somehow magically make her fall in love with them?
On a side note, she also suggested that her, me, and the wife could have a three-some. So she may not be normal.
But, still, “intentions” aren’t helping those guys out at all.
Ok, back to the topic, the EMK challenge.
Really, at 38, the woman in question is best doing pre-screened social circle game: friends, family, work acquaintances, and the like, where the guys have been vetted in some fashion, or where she has at least some familiarity with guy in question. This saves on searching costs and time (which is at a premium), and due to the fact there’ll be some social pressure to for all to behave, there’s a reasonable chance to find non-pump-n-dump guy.
There are several problems, though:
1) Her age. That’s going to mean that the circle of men who would overlook that aren’t going to be “hawt” guys. There may be guys willing to risk the fertility issues, but the guys with options are going to be targeting 5-10 years younger. So, she will need to “expand” her criteria of “quality” guy.
2) If she isn’t already using the social circle (and asking for help online), that’s a problem. Either she’s already blown through her social circle, or she needs to quickly find a social circle where the demographics are in her favor. Keith mentioned that as well. So it requires her to put herself where the men are. That’s, like, you know, work.
3) There are no guarantees. Leaving the search till the last minute means there may be no good outcome here. If the woman has nieces, or has other younger women in her life, it would be a loving gesture for her to tell them not wait like she did. And avoid sabotaging them by telling them “you have plenty of time” or “there’s plenty of boys on the boy tree”. If either were always true, this “challenge” would have never come to pass…
If you really wanna throw it down, you better Throw It On The Ground.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAYL5H46QnQ
Should I feel limited to 100 Best Comments?
@ jf12
#129 girl sounds unrestricted, but normal for unrestricted
This is the cohort (“38 year-old educated professional”) I date, though from MEK’s perspective I am too old to be considered a good catch. I also experienced the full panoply of negative outcomes (coercive marriage, ‘unplanned’ pregnancy, child services action picture, balance sheet re-engineering, child theft, etc) that comprise a trite summary of blue pill naiveté, second-marriage variety.
He’s reinforcing what I think is this group’s major problem, which is the idea that a woman can drape a new persona and new set of expectations on a well-traveled figure, and transform herself into a high-value woman deserving of being courted and married. Well, she can’t. There are many reasons why a woman of significant educational and professional achievement (“high value” to MEK) makes it to 38, unattached. Buying a new wardrobe, or establishing a new set of life goals, at 38 does not mean anything substantial has occurred. She’s still the same woman with the same habits and the same tastes that she was at 30 or 22. Just as a mid-career executive who’s changed jobs every two or three years for 20 years is not someone you hire to build a real company.
It’s curious to me that people, subscribing to MEK’s theory of assertive mating, discount the prior two decades of ingrained habit as having nothing to do with success probabilities in the next two decades. Middle-aged women, like middle-aged executives, will do what they’ve always done. They may learn how, like the mid-career exec who job-hops, to tell naive employers why “they’ve changed” or why “they know what they want and they’re finally ready.”
A beta bux member of MEK’s cognitive elite, a blue pill follower (probably on the rebound from a nasty precipitous divorce) of our parents’ social rules, are the best target for such a woman. He’ll project his desire for a renewed domestic existence onto a verbally agile woman who reassures him with her articulate presentation. He won’t ask himself (or ask her) any due diligence questions, he’ll eat shit and die before he willingly subjects himself to another divorce experience, and most of the men in his group already say “If she’s happy I’m happy heh-heh.”
In other words, he’s never considered the idea of mastering his own sovereignty before contemplating the implications of marrying someone who’s demonstrated zero capacity for sustained love and devotion. He’s never even considered what personal sovereignty means, because he’s already developed his own habits, and they’re habits of service: taking care of other people, defining his happiness as their happiness, mastering an ethic of delayed gratification. (Plus five minutes of quiet time in the shower a few days per week.) He will take pride in resuming his role at the head of a family, and this is no small thing. It’s what his dad and grandfather and every other man in his family did. That’s all he’s known.
There are a few guys like this, though our 38 year-old archetype will have to hold her nose and strike the “no baggage that won’t fit into an overhead bin” line in her profile. She’ll need to develop her talking points that justify her dating a man in this situation (he’s likely 5-10 years older than she, and this is a no-no in the feminist ethos, and learn to say “he’s close to his mother and I’m sure he and his ex- will be friends over time.”) No worries, she will (upon commitment) make clear whose needs come first, and after all, if she’s happy, he’ll be happy. Someone needs to be the pilot-in-command of every plane, and that will be she.
I just scratch my head, though, at the pretense that what a woman does for 20 years is somehow not her default behavior for the next 20 years. The business about courting and wooing and honoring the special wonder that is the accomplished and barren (of children, continuity, financial foundation and community foundation) 38 year-old Wonder Woman depends on one lucky happenstance: a guy who checks all the boxes in her checklist, but who is quite literally dying to get back in harness. We’re all recidivists, by nature, so this becomes a game of who shows-and-tells first. (Advice to friends: if you don’t know who the dupe in any deal is, it’s you.)
She’ll drop her drawers, day one, for the guy who publicly mimics the social conventions of an Atticus Finch — but promises the sexual proclivities of Christian Grey. No woman desires sexual domination quite like an alpha female.
Let’s not dismiss this strategy, incidentally, by our 38 year-old. She belongs to the most stable (from a divorce perspective) demographic extant. Although she’s boxed herself into a corner by waiting 10 years, if she gets lucky and finds the right greater beta on the rebound, odds are she’ll stay married. And lots and lots of presents at Christmas.
@ bv (Advice to friends: if you don’t know who the dupe in any deal is, it’s you.)
As always, sound advice.
@BV re: habits of service.
These would be a Good Thing, indeed probably the Best Thing, if women did them.
#134
Wow. Not sure any of us can add much more to that comment…
“the prior two decades of ingrained habit as having nothing to do with success probabilities in the next two decades.”
That’s something that the “MEKs” try to ignore. Past is prologue…
#134 re: day one.
True, but a gentleman ought to pick them up for her after.
Bloom that Mike and Guido narrative is hilarious.
A++++
Note to self: I am a HIGH … high … QUALITY … quality … GUIDO! Whoo me!
JF, 136, I filter for women who have strong relationships with their fathers. Even if they have spent 20 years being strong and independent (self-centered) creatures, somewhere stirring and shifting, in the background, is their fathers’ example.
(Well, that plus daddy erotica.)
In general, I view courtship rituals as the male equivalent of a woman saying “I finally know what I want and I’m ready.” IOW, a convenient social convention, an opportunity for other people to project their desires.
It’s not like I believe that “courtship” makes any woman quake or blush. But it elevates many women in their women friends’ eyes, if she can describe how she is being courted by a gentleman (before he does what she really wants). There’s utility in that. Properly done, it clearly establishes who is P-I-C. Being old school I do enjoy many of the exhausted rituals (choosing, driving, squiring, protecting).
This does not mean being a walking-talking ATM machine, however. These days I’m quite open about my expectations that my interest in being a woman’s companion, in the manner Katz advises, correlates well to the number of home-cooked meals I’m offered or we prepare together. Funnily, the text game I’m seeing lately has more pictures of food than booty. But that’s just me, and I’ve spent 25 years being married, and 30 years being on the road and forced to eat in restaurants.
(picks up ball)
“Hotter than a $10 pistol” is/was a sort of common expression indicating a distinct lack of special-ness. The kind you only display to your best friends, and your worst enemies.
FWIW I’ve never actually heard of (or bought) a *two* dollar pistol. That’s an exaggeration.
JF, Atticus Finch not only picks them up, but folds them. Christian Grey drops them off the balcony and watches them float into the street. Depends on the day, energy level, size of …
Why thank you Sir Nemisis! I really do need to get started on writing a book or screenplay or something… Maybe a red pill relationship themed one… you know, show don’t tell… Hummm…
So what should the name of our heroine be? Tiffany? Mercedes? Hummm…
And then there can be the alphas of days gone by, Thor, Shaft, Rod, Hammer…
And a vixen with the heart of gold, of course. Hummm. How about Harley?
And…
Oooooh! Daddy erotica? Googling Daddy erotica. Oh my!!! (Actually, I really didn’t…but I should!)
Lol, bv you never fail to coin a clever new turn of phrase…
Glück haben diejenigen, die Liebe zu finden.
Schatz in der Tat selten, es ist.
I have to say that EMK’s audience is remarkably small. Mid-to-late 30s Ivy League career women looking to settle down with a six figure man? What man really wants that woman? That’s an awful first wife, and it isn’t any thinking, rational man’s second wife either. Its like the end of Sex and the City where a couple of them get married; there’s no Mr. Big out there, no Mikhail Baryshnikov either, looking for some worn out, deeply in debt, old woman with 15 to 20 years of baggage.
That is a desperate man, badly in need of a wife for, I suppose, societal validation? I’m not seeing so much that she brings to the table. I ran away screaming from a very interested 8 in my late twenties because she was publicly proud that she was only going to be around $175K in student loan debt when she got done with Georgetown Law School. That scared the shit out of me scraping by on only $50K a year net in the DC area. EMK’s clients are going to have more debt than that(better schools, better advanced degrees), and if I was looking to make that level of financial commitment I’d go take out a car loan or mortgage. At least it would have resale value.
To be honest, I am shocked daily that you guys don’t ban me! But I am happy you don’t!
But Victor, image her $1,000 shoe collection! (Squeal!) Oh lucky day, lucky day!
#143 I suppose on the way out Guido ought to suddenly squat down and stretch them out carefully, lovingly, on the floor, looking like he can’t believe his eyes, and while she’s wondering what he’s doing this time, again, holding his hands out measuring like for a giant fish and then squinting and reframing his hands back on her, then back on the panties, shake his head, shrug his shoulders, and saying “I know someone these will fit better,” he picks them up and stuffs them loosely in his pocket as he strolls out whistling.
re: panty dropping as IOI.
Wasn’t there some old movie where the girl’s underwear kept falling off accidentally when the Cool New Dude was near, and she took it as a sign from God?
Bloom, 145:
I think our heroine (to fit Mr. Katz’ rarefied demographic) should be old money Connecticut. Since she’ll be an ex-field hockey girl, have graduated from Miss Porter’s before legacy rules admitted her to Harvard, she’ll sport long and hard legs, a slight softening around the waist from too many nights at P.J. Clarke’s, and B cups.
Frequently she hops the Amtrak out to New London, cabs it to Groton and hops the ferry over to her family compound on Fisher’s Island (of which she is assured of inheriting a 1/48th trust interest, about the time she gets her first hip replacement, but the boys she invites to trot along don’t need to know that) (this would be when that unmanageable dude doesn’t fly her onto the depression-era 1700′ airstrip, giving new meaning to the term “dragging it in”), there will be an odd, waspy, vaguely in-bred look to her: eyes placed slightly wider than normal, something of a prominent chin, light brown hair she insists is “blonde”. So. Being the best and the brightest of her generation (just ask Mr. Katz), though working hard to hide the fact of her exhausted trust fund, not just any name will do. After all, anyone can buy a “Mercedes” and since Poppy don’t marry no Venezuelan cha-cha’s, that name is unlikely.
A vaguely mannish name, drawn from the family genealogy, might work. “Connor” or “Sydney” (Sydney Biddle Barrows comes to mind); perhaps even “Smith”. Of course, her dad will have nicknamed her “Coo” or “Dee” or “Sam-Sam”, which is what all of her Facebook friends call her. Poppy (Daddy, Paw-Paw, whatever) often invites her up to his room for morning coffee, which he indulges in his pajamas and robe, the sight of which makes her sigh. If only she could meet a man who knew the proper way to dress in the morning.
I missed that movie, JF. La Perla?
#154 I dunno. I remember hearing about it I guess, since my visual memory is pretty good and I’m drawing a blank. Black and white, I believe. Maybe, just maybe, somebody Gregory Peck-ish as like the hunky new geography teacher that all the teen girls want to sleep with in like 1949?
#153 B but already droopy. She imagines this is because they are *large*, somehow.
PANTS on the ground!
Having never been to one, at the concerts and things where the 38 Specials throw their panties in the general direction of the 60 yr old crooner, are these strategiacally prepositioned? Or do they go through the rigamarole of pulling them down and stepping out of them?
@Obsidian
EMK’s problem is a matter of principles basically.
He’s trying to help women understand “true men” without understanding “men.” All the players, misogynists, cheap men are “equally” as men as those so called provider group that he of course proclaims to be a member of. But how can you understand an entity that has two different natures? It’s ironic that he accuses most of the guys on here as being intolerant of him and women, but actually his whole conceptualization of dating, shows that he’s far less tolerant of men who don’t want to follow typical dating rules, that generally don’t coincide with how women interact in the world that he claims to live in today.
That’s why his scenario about coming up with a strategy for a 38 year old woman trying to find a suitable mate is silly. She’d first have to understand, past a “woe is me” mindset, why men naturally aren’t checking for 38 year old women, regardless of money or quality – and she’d have to understand men as a whole, not just her prince charmings. Since that’s required before you can develop any actual strategy with the sake of achieving victory, what generally ends up happening is that she ends up playing the game just like every other woman: like it’s the lottery. The difference is that she now has a personal motivational speaker to egg her on to keep buying those scratch tickets, until she wins.
To be fair, EMK makes a living dispensing dating advice to primarily women , so it’s not entirely indefensible that his default frame is that of the female-primary variety. However, the vibe I get from these emails he and O are exchanging is that a woman ought to simply take suitors, and have them make these men jump through an exhaustive list of hoops until they’ve checked off all the boxes on the “commitment-minded” checklist. He’s doing women a disservice this way for a number if reasons.
First, by reinforcing the trope that men need to do all of the work in the courtship process, he is feeding into the rampant entitlement mentality that plagues modern courtship.
Second, as some have pointed out, he is directing women squarely into selecting the “beta bux” crowd, which some would applaud, but we all know how that plays out in the real world…ILYBINILWY, frivorce, etc.
Third, there is a wide middle ground between the man doing all the work and the woman taking the “masculine approach” and doing all of the pursuing. Notice how he so dismisses the notion of the woman making effort with his hypothetical 38 year old woman. I don’t think it’s
all that out of line for women to screen out obvious “pump-n-dump” minded men, after all, the marriage minded among us are doing our own screening for chaste women, right? However, things like making your attraction known to a man, exhibiting some classy femininity, making the phone call sometimes, picking up the check every so often (equality!), and generally having empathy for what the man is looking for in a relationship are requirements for a healthy relationship. After all, relationships are a two way street, and EMK (not to be confused with my moniker!) would do well to keep that in mind. Men need to be attractive for sure, but it’s hardly too much to ask for women to hold up their end too.
#131
In response to jf12 linking Lonely Island, a more MGTOW-like song:
Katz is hocking advice from the perspective of an old-order social contract for men, in to reconcile the well earned, well deserved consequences women are now suffering as a result of a new-order, feminine-primary social contract that’s embraced unrestrained hypergamy.
Design a dating strategy for a high quality 38 year old woman? Hell, why stop there? Apparently there’s a prominent 58 year old woman who needs our help who’s suffering the exact same consequences from the exact same choices she made in life, who still has the exact same entitled mindset she did earlier in life:
http://therationalmale.com/2014/07/15/separating-values/
I’d like to know what Katz’s advice to Robin Korth would be.
#160 @1:56 I see we’re going to need a bigger hammer.
So we can Throw It On The Ground!
@ bv Ok, I think I am going to need your help developing that character, you obviously know her better than I. Perhaps I was thinking of our aging state school sorority girl, Connor’s sidekick. Mercedes? Tiffani? Bunni? The ennui soon-to-be cougar of our little tale…and co-sister in sharing the alpha tribe, although neither girl knows it…yet…
“Design a dating strategy for a high quality 38 year old woman who wants to get married and have children.”
Easy peasy. If she’s divorced she can look for divorced men, some of whom might have kids in which case they will have to be open to being a step mom. If she’s never been married then there are plenty of thirty and forty something men out here open to marriage and starting families. If she looks good for her age then she can try her hand at the thirty something crowd. If she looks middle age then she might have to veer toward the older forty something men. Men in their fifties usually don’t want to start a family but if she finds a good one who does, she can consider even going that old.
There’s a lot of us 35-45 year old single guys out here. If women want us, they can be pro-active and approach us. Why should we have to do all the work?
And Harley, naturally has the hots for our greater beta Mike, but she pines away as he chases after the elusive Connor… his fwb game break thru in the waiting post Connor exit…
This stuff just writes itself!
One minor note on Katz’ perspective and the idea of courtship screen for pump-and-dumps. Perhaps it’s overly subjective.
If he’s actually trying to help his women screen for p&d’s, while solving for accomplished successful men and trumpeting his women’s socio-economic success, does anybody else see a major disconnect?
I don’t actually know anyone who practices hit-and-run romancing, but to me the practice reflects (often) an innate *in*security. Not an alphatude sociopathy. This makes the risk of his clients being victimized by random players an odd thing, if not a complete red herring.
I’d say that steering his clients toward beta bux types (greater betas, lesser betas) presents a far likelier possibility of being ‘manipulated’ into a one night stand. This, opposed to the scenario in which he steered them in the direction of accomplished, leader-of-men types. Any middle aged man who clears Katz’ ‘successful man’ (with resources to burn on courtship) bar long ago learned the value of playing the long game over the short. Any guy going sideways or backwards in life is going to be more inclined to spin up a seduction tale while abusing his snowflakes.
Of course, with middle aged men who understand their options, his clients will have to filter for those guys who are ready to jump (to the altar) when told to jump, of course while saying “how high?”
So this is another disconnect, for me, in the advice being proffered. Putting it another way, on more than one occasion when I felt I was being pushed too hard to commit, and commit prematurely, I’ve said, “Look. I’m happy to commit to you in the manner you describe, understanding as I do that you have spent the last 20 years doing the opposite of commit. Just one thing. First you have to give me back the 25 years I’ve spent taking care of other people, and eliminate the next 15 years I’m facing of additional financial obligation to other people. Then we’ll be on the same page.”
As BB noted way up there, a woman in this predicament really has a couple of choices, both of which are the result of 20 years of choices *she* previously made. She can take the hope-is-a-strategy path: wait for a Unicorn to Unicorn Up! Or she can settle for a lower-risk more modest outcome. No man should be expected to just cash her out of her 20-year fun-run at the tables. Besides, she’s just not holding a lot of chips.
A vaguely mannish name, drawn from the family genealogy, might work. “Connor” or “Sydney” (Sydney Biddle Barrows comes to mind); perhaps even “Smith”. Of course, her dad will have nicknamed her “Coo” or “Dee” or “Sam-Sam”, which is what all of her Facebook friends call her. Poppy (Daddy, Paw-Paw, whatever) often invites her up to his room for morning coffee, which he indulges in his pajamas and robe, the sight of which makes her sigh. If only she could meet a man who knew the proper way to dress in the morning.
BV
LOL. Good to see you around, and hope you continue to get back to full strength.
Thor is the dashing but dark-hearted natural. Shaft works in sales and always has a good lead in, that he closes on a regular basis. Rod is the aging urban hipster guy, on the verge of becoming pathetic but he had a run in his younger days and three kids w/ three women to prove it. Hammer is the alpha caveman nicknamed for the way he likes to give it to ladies
Hummm, I reserve the right to change up the plot line a bit. Connor and Mike plus Guido are no longer working for me. Perhaps Mercedes and Mike/Guido, so that means Connor’s match is still undefined… perhaps a sovereign man she can’t get to commit? Hummm…bv you will have to help me there as well…
The woman *does* have a lack of men to whom she is truly viscerally attracted and who want to both fuck and commit to her (and is worthwhile of herself committing to). That is, a man to whom she is viscerally attracted and who *also* brings BB. That’s a very small set of men — very, very small, especially for a 38yo.
Nova,
I’ve come to dislike the use of the term “attractive”, “attracted” when we are talking about what a woman feels for a man. Reason being is it is a garbage word intentionally used to obfuscate rather than clearly explicate. This is par for the course when we talk what women find “attractive”
Girl – I see lots of attractive men in the park patting their little kids on the head
Me – So you specifically find interaction with young children something that attracts you to a man?
Girl – Oh yes!
Me – So you feel some type of sexual feeling towards the guy?
Girl – Well…no… I didn’t say that.
Me – Well…what do you mean by “attracted” then?
Girl – Well…you know…..he is attractive
And round in round in circles we go. I prefer the terminology of sexually desirable. It leaves no wiggle room for BSing. For example, I find a 5’9″ blonde with 36″ legs and natural C cups sexually desirable.
From this perspective, the list of attributes that spark sexual desire are much less than what encompasses this asexual “attraction” like perhaps a kitchen with granite countertops is attractive.
And of course I won’t write the ending this way but my publicist will conspire with my editor to force me to change it. Buth are post wall cat ladies who want a happy ending. Connor will get her guy! (Sniff. Credits roll….)
@ Morpheus
Absolutely agree on the obfuscating usage of “attraction” by women.
It’s important to note the difference to avoid ending up as spreadsheet guy.
Much depends, obviously, on the 38yo’s attractiveness level, her willingness to allow for non-hot men—but otherwise desirable for an LTR—as mating choices, and her “lambda” or risk-tolerance. Call me jaded, but this has been my observation about real-world social dynamics: if the woman is an 8+ in hotness she can ignore anything said on this or any other discussion board and feel confident that she will land on her feet no matter what she does, to include serial infidelity.
Bastiat,
As you know better than me, free markets have some clearing price. The relationship market is a lot more like the home market than the stock market. Stock market has non-stop massive liquidity, and prices are always moving to reflect new information and new assessments of value. The home market is much more illiquid and often gets stuck with a lot of unsold inventory in certain markets because those potential sellers are stuck on an “old price” that doesn’t reflect current value. Think markets like Las Vegas, or parts of Arizona.
My parents sold their house a few years back, and after being on the market for quite some time it sold immediatly once they knocked 10K off. There is a guy I work with (recently started) who is very smart looking to move closer to work, but he is just stuck on the current listing price. He has done something like 60+ showings. I keep telling him drop the price 20-30K, and the house will sell the next day.
I can’t imagine the nightmare of being in the business of trying to sell these 35-45+ successful career types in the relationship market. The divergence between their self-perceived mating market value and what their realistic value to most men is probably greater than the overvaluation in CMGI at the 2000 peak (bit of hyperbole there)
Ohhh the plot thickens, Mike in anger posts the spreadsheet after he learns of Guido’s return! F’ing witch. Mike goes kinda postal for a bit as he has a red pill awakening.
#173 the femivanity bubble crisis looms
I’ve come to dislike the use of the term “attractive”, “attracted” when we are talking about what a woman feels for a man. Reason being is it is a garbage word intentionally used to obfuscate rather than clearly explicate. This is par for the course when we talk what women find “attractive”
This is fair enough, which is why I chose to use the phrase “viscerally attracted” — the intended meaning was the same, but perhaps the phrasing “sexually desirable” is simply clearer and more on point. I don’t think women are “viscerally attracted” to Corian surfacing, but it’s probably clearer to say that they are not “sexually desiring” Corian.
Unless she’s Nicole Murphy Murphy the sit back and wait to be chased is not going to work. The Wall is not kind to everyone…
Mike, one of the alpha’s little brother (? suggestions?) turns to his brother who tells him of game… Harley hears the scuttle and is ready in the wings…
#173 keep in mind that EMK pegs the typical percentage of men who are desirable enough to be 2% to 5%
#167 re:vaguely mannish name. Kyle? I know a girl named Kyle.
Kyle…. nice!
“Attractive” simply means not physically ugly. Slightly above average looking and higher, or even average looking or higher.
There’s yet another false premise in there, too – that of dinner as an opening date. By the time you take a woman to dinner, the two of you should be either getting conjugal or sure enough you’re going somewhere that buying her a meal isn’t a big deal. (I tell guys to stay away from the dinner date not so much because of beta-bucks but because it’s a bad early-date frame – it’s stiff and low-energy and has limited opportunity to build intimacy. It’s weird how dinner has this cultural status as an ideal date idea when it’s one of the poorest options you could come up with.)
Badger, great stuff, you nailed it.
Couple of personal stories…I usually remember specific things when someone makes a point that relates.
I went back to grad school in 1999 at age 25. I’m speculating a bit, but I suspect that is around the time that taking girls to dinner dates especially younger girls really just lost any effectiveness. Between graduating undergrad and going back (95-99) I did some of the traditional dinner date stuff and honestly, I think it worked OK, not stellar, but not a total flop.
So I get to grad school, and I’m pretty much in top shape. I see this girl (probably 20 or 21) in the gym who I had seen at the college bars and clubs, and just asked her for her number right in the middle of a workout. She gave me her number, and then I went back to the script I knew which was take a girl out on a dinner date. LOL, what a dope I was. Anyways, that was the last date with her, and obviously I don’t know for certain, but I suspect I would have gotten much further had I simply asked to “hang out” or “meet up” at one of the bars and have drinks and do some shots. Thankfully, I kind of figured out the dinner date thing for young college girls in a college party town was pretty dumb and didn’t make that mistake again.
One “dinner” date I liked and used repeatedly with pretty good results was Dave and Busters. I must have taken at least 10 girls to first or second dates to Dave and Busters. This worked well for me because I like girls who can be silly and have let their hair down fun and tap their inner child. I have a strong distaste for super serious girls. Plus, playing all those kinds of games there lends itself to all sorts of positive shit. If you are athletic, there are DHV opportunities, you can set up silly competitive dynamic that lends itself to playful teasing, negging, kino. My wife still remembers one of our earliest dates to Dave and Busters as one of our most memorable and fun dates. She is obviously the last, but there were many before her. What’s my point? I think one mistake is thinking everything has to be unique and different. Fuck that. If you find something that works repeat it over and over and over. Especially when you have good stories that DHV. Canned material that you can pull off the shelf over again is very effective.
Ethan Krupp pops up on the 38 Special’s Tinder, and she swipes left.
I would like to add my voice to the chorus of derision over the “quality 38 year old woman” who wants marriage and kids.
Old Sergeant Mac gave me some sage advice once. He said “If a woman is over twenty-five and not married, there’s a reason”. And this has held true. Now, maybe that reason is something you can live with, but it’s there. There just aren’t that many options to explain how a woman gets to 38 without being married if that’s a priority for her. Did she just discover this priority? Is she a workaholic? Does she have literally no clue where she falls on the socio-sexual mating market scale?
“Quality” means different things to different people. Many things which are great accomplishments in a person mean less than nothing in a romantic partner. Men do not care if you made partner, or if you are the first woman X, or if none of your facile friends can understand why you are single. We care if you are attractive and attracted to us. That is all. Being successful as a woman is analogous to being a world-champion Magic the Gathering player as a man. Impressive accomplishment, but you wouldn’t lead with that on a date.
But seriously, to answer your question about this hypothetical woman. Date men in their 50’s and 60’s. Forget the kids, she’s run out the clock on that, the risk of infertility or major birth defects are already through the roof, and any man in that age range who doesn’t have kids already has a reason for that too.
…and somehow I will work in a midget who fashions himself a cross between Toulouse-Lautrec and Yoda…or maybe not Yoda, this is all kind of fluid…thinking out loud here…
#182 H. maybe intends well-meaning, but 20% attractive to women is a much better rule of thumb.
Is that 2-5% of men that are desirable for all women or just compatible with and desirable for a particular woman?
Veruca Salt gets thrown down
#188 I don’t know, but I’m not sure it matters in
1. Reality
2. EMK’s model of a desirable man
@ jf12 189 – a classic!
The midget (and I mean a real little person, dwarfism but proportional) will be like the all knowing sage… somehow… perhaps the narrator of the tale…
#191 It makes me uncomfortable; she looks like my first wife when she was a little girl (from pictures).
“Old Sergeant Mac gave me some sage advice once. He said “If a woman is over twenty-five and not married, there’s a reason”.
How old is Ol’ Mac and where is he from? What may have been true for his generation is no longer true for ours. 25 is currently considered young in America to marry. Most women marry for the first time closer to 27. Updated for accurately if a woman is over 32 and not married, there is a reason. If a man is over 35 and not married, there is a reason. Yes, there’s very good reasons why I’m not married
Let’s keep it that way.
EMK: Design a dating strategy for a high quality 38 year old woman who wants to get married and have children.
This strategy has to be 100% beneficial to her short and long term desires, so that she can find a similar high quality relationship oriented man without wasting a ton of time or getting her heart broken by sleeping around. These are HER needs. What would you advise her to do?
Bloom @ 31 has it.
I would be happy to date and wine and dine a 38 YO quality woman for a real relationship, even for marriage, but I am not interested in being a sperm donor/accessory/box check fulfiller/orbiter/Supporting Actor to a woman’s desired life, based on a selfish frame that she is the center of.
She is too late asking for that. She should have been thinking of that in her 20s and early 30s.
Other than that, she will do well do avoid using a college degree as a screening tool as if she were hiring someone, rather than seeking a mate.
In a fit of forced rewrite rage, I add in two post wall cat ladies, at the end of their era, all Grey Gardens…spinster fempire aunties of our dear, dear Conner…
Ya’ll knew me when!
Too fun!
Oh another thing she could do is cougar up and find a younger, solid man who wants a relationship and kids. That worked on me.
#158 re: “true men”
Good catch. The fallacy of No True Man often shades into the apex fallacy, so it can be hard to tell. I suppose the Groucho club membership paradox is intimately related; “None of these guys that will have me are True Men.”
And of course some star crossed young lovers, perhaps offspring of two of the characters, yet undetermined, who learn from the saga, who get it right, and are determined to avoid all of the drama of the modern smp/mmp and forge a new path…life mates like in the days of old. (Sniff!)
Ok, ok I have to add in SOME girl saga…
Whew! I just got caught up on the comments.
Bloom,
You nailed it back at 23. She is very much out to check off boxes. Wrong motivation.
You’re on fire with your story about the Diva. I feel sorry for Mike.
Buena Vista,
I am glad that we haven’t lost you.
Random thoughts:
It wouldn’t surprise me that EMK has to deal with scenario a lot.
He sees only Two to five percent of men as relationship worthy?
How is that going to work?
EMK should team up with the female equivilent of R. Lee Ermey. While he can hand out tissues, the female drill sergeant can tell these procrastinating dumb bunnies “what for”.
At Sgt. Ted, sorry to hear that. Yes, I think that might work in well…
I’m a mid-30’s woman who has never married. Long story short I spent my 20’s deeply involved in religion marriage was not encouraged. Now I’m faced with the secular dating scene and it is daunting. I just don’t have enough in common with the guys I have met to warrant anything special and the few that have shown interest in what I’m interested in end up adopting the same anti-marriage attitude that I was taught.
Hi Fuzzie! Glad you are digging the story so far…
I am in creative form (oh no, maybe ovulating! Watch out!)
I return to actual advice. Ms. 38Special, I advise you to settle for one of the nice unexciting guys who will still have you; any one of them. Pick the very first one that seems halfway interested in you, and tell him he’s going to marry you. Brush the Cheetos off his fingers if you need to.
But if you insist on trying to attain one of the 2%, or 5%, of desirable guys, I’ll be happy to take your money and tell you how to become more attractive to … ME! And then a year from now, at 39 and maybe not quite so special despite trying, you can settle for one of the nice unexciting guys …
because you’ll have discovered that desirable men Do Not Care that you are trying, because younger hotter women are trying too.
@Morpheus #180,
You need to understand the difference between the 2 sides of a woman’s hypergamous nature:
Attraction is not Arousal.
Arousal = Alpha Fucks
Attraction = Beta Bucks
Arousal = Sexual urgency (tingles)
Attraction = Security need (parental investment)
Arousal = “That guys is hawt!”
Attraction = “He’s a cute guy.”
So long as hypergamy remains socially unrestrained, no woman will EVER find satisfaction of those aspects of it in the same man.
“If a woman is over twenty-five and not married, there’s a reason”
There’s a reason for everything. I spent 2 years of my life waiting for the man I loved to ask me to marry him because I was afraid of losing him if I pushed the envelope. He ended up breaking up with me anyway and I spent the following year in bed nursing my wounds and downing anti-depressants.
Now I’m in a long distance relationship with another guy that I’m falling hard for but my friends and family keep reminding me what happened last time I fell for someone and they don’t want to see me get hurt again so they tell me to keep my options open. So in the meantime I’m going on dates with local guys I meet online but heart is with the long distance guy but I have to guard myself around him so that he doesn’t get scared and dump me and I’ll end up back in bed for another year.
You just can’t be open and loving when you feel like it. You just can’t call up a guy and tell him that you are crazy mad in love for him and want to marry him and have his babies by the end of the week, even if that’s how you really feel.
Its a shit pile out here and its not even funny anymore.
Colorado Girl,
While you’re a girl, I thought that stuff only happened to boys, beta in particular.
Anyway, you’re all right and it sounds like you’re trying. Stick around. It’s man talk for the most part here. We won’t pull punches but, there’s little BS.
“While you’re a girl, I thought that stuff only happened to boys” Huh? Boys spend years of their lives waiting for the girls they love to propose marriage?
Colorado Girl,
What boys do is wait for the gals thathey are sweet on to notice them.
And, it doesn’t happen.
@ Confused #203
I’m sorry to here this. It’s unfortunate that many modern religious traditionalists try to de-emphasize marriage (when in the past they used to help their followers get married). I hope you’re able to work things out regardless.
@Colorado Girl
Sorry to hear about your troubles.
With that said, most guys aren’t going to get freaked out if a girl they’re in love with and who they’ve shared a serious committed relationship with for some time says how much she loves him, wants to marry him, have his kids, etc. For most, that’s going to be music to their ears.
The guys that freak out are the ones who have the girl on the FB/casual ladder and likely feel guilty.
“The guys that freak out are the ones who have the girl on the FB/casual ladder and likely feel guilty.”
We weren’t casual. The relationship went from good to great and then he just hightailed it. To this day I still don’t know what happened. Family says he just wasn’t ready to take it to the next level.
Now I’m falling for another one. I don’t know how he feels about me, not allowed to ask, that’s clingy, possessive, desperate they say, but I swear to god if he breaks my heart I’m just going to throw in the goddamn towel once and for all and become a man eater.
@212/Jimmy
The guys that freak out are the ones who have the girl on the FB/casual ladder and likely feel guilty.
Yes. Coloradogirl, this was one for whom it was good that he went away. Painful, but good for you.
You just can’t be open and loving when you feel like it. You just can’t call up a guy and tell him that you are crazy mad in love for him and want to marry him and have his babies by the end of the week, even if that’s how you really feel.
Its a shit pile out here and its not even funny anymore.
Yes, it’s a shit pile. It’s similar for men. If men disclose too much along the same veins, they come off as needy and lacking in options in this market, and they get nexted.
This is a very hardcore, rough, combat style market we are in now, men and women alike. You can manage it, but you need to accept what you are dealing with and then actively manage it.
@Rollo,
“Attraction is not Arousal.
Arousal = Alpha Fucks
Attraction = Beta Bucks
Arousal = Sexual urgency (tingles)
Attraction = Security need (parental investment)
Arousal = “That guys is hawt!”
Attraction = “He’s a cute guy.”
Evan says, “As a dating coach, I distinguish between two types of traits: attractive and important.
Hot, brilliant, charismatic, hilarious, rich are attractive.
Consistent, kind, committed, communicative are important.”
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/marriage/why-couples-stay-happily-married/
BloomI agree the idea of finding a woman completely untouched by the tainted smp is pretty unrealistic unless one is shopping in closed religous sects w no access to pop culture, TV, music, or the Internet.
In my short and limited experience, traditionally raised women are the best bet, even if they’ve forsworn their religion.
@Colorado Girl
Makes sense… I obviously have no idea what happened, but I’d be confident in saying his decision had little if anything to do with what you said or didn’t say. Most likely he just wasn’t on the marriage track from the get go.
The vast majority of guys aren’t going to just up and ghost on a girl he’s in love with, has been dating seriously for years, and has serious plans about the future.
Hopefully this gives you a little bit of empathy for what the vast majority of guys have to go through.
I do feel for ya. It sucks… But again, if any significant amount of time has passed in the relationship, the guy’s not going to be freaked out if he really loves the girl and sees a future with her.
“I agree the idea of finding a woman completely untouched by the tainted smp is pretty unrealistic unless one is shopping in closed religous sects w no access to pop culture, TV, music, or the Internet.”
Closed religious sects can be just as bad or worse. Mine actually preached against marriage and has a high divorce rate. As if that weren’t bad enough, when we look outside the sect for partners its like going to another planet.
” It’s unfortunate that many modern religious traditionalists try to de-emphasize marriage (when in the past they used to help their followers get married). I hope you’re able to work things out regardless.”
This religion glorifies celibacy. I’m trying to work things out by looking outside the religion for someone who would be willing to convert but not get so deep into it that they eschew marriage also. So far the two guys I met who got into it have gone all the way and they are in training as monks.
I just wanted to highlight this quote, becuase it relates to something that’s been bugging me about the whole “man up” campaigns… After enough rejection, a guy’s going to start likely thinking along those same lines.
And it seems like “man up” girls have an expectation that guys should not only be willing to constantly run into that brick wall again and again, but they also expect guys not to be injured by doing so. All while indignantly insisting that they shouldn’t be required to take on any measure of risk themselves.
It’s like calling a football player who just got lit up and injured on a sick hit from Jadeavon Clowney a pussy when you’ve never even played the game.
I remember elsewhere one of our old friends wrote that it’s unrealistic to expect a girl to remain relatively chaste from puberty all the way to her late 20s. Fair enough. But the flip side of that it’s unrealistic to expect guys to take rejection after rejection from puberty all the way into their late 20s and not be affected at all by it. At some point it’s going to cause them to get a little gunshy or become hardened players.
Pity the Pretty: An Ode to Attractive Women Who Can’t Find Boyfriends
Comment number 256
Alison
Just thought I’d add my 2 cents:
I’m 52 now. Still very attractive – long red hair, hourglass figure, great teeth and skin, etc.
I’ve never been married. Never been asked. I’ve had 4 boyfriends in the last 25 years. From 2006 until 2012 I didn’t go on a single date.
I have a master’s degree. I’ve traveled around the world, alone. I’ve never had a date on Valentine’s Day or New Year’s Eve.
Don’t drink or smoke. Don’t have a bunch of cats or anything weird!
I have finally accepted that I will never have a loving, committed relationship with any man ever. The men who approach me are ALWAYS either married or have serious issues, like homelessness or addictions. So I have created a life for myself: I own a successful business, I have a wonderful daughter, I have wonderful friends, and I enjoy spending time with myself. Yes, I’m lonely. But I can live with it.
Ladies, sometimes you just have to make your own life. And men, if you see that pretty lady eating alone, or at the concert alone, or fishing at the pier alone, go up and say hi. You never know; it might be me, and yes, I would love to go grab a coffee with you.
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-tips-advice/pity-the-pretty-an-ode-to-attractive-women-who-cant-find-boyfriends
Angelique is not high quality bc she is left-overs.
No, Angelique is who we want to marry, if she is attractive enough. Cathy is way too much pushing it towards Desiree-ism, trying to have her cake and eat it, and not knowing what she is. While Desiree is a disaster, Cathy is a huge risk that she will blow up and want to “find her inner Desiree” in her 30s or 40s, whereas Angelique is grounded and bears much less risk. The only issue for Angelique is if she is attractive — if she is, she is usually married quite young. If she isn’t, she may not have very many suitors in a sex-focused dating market.
Colorado Girl,
About long distance relationships, frequent communication is essential. Ideally, daily via videochat. I tried it once and it failed because of that. It was like she just faded away.
As for you throwing in the towel and becoming a man eater, I don’t think so. Leopards can’t change their spots. That you can put yourself at emotional risk speaks well for you.
anti-marriage attitude that I was taught.
Which denomination was that?
That’s Betty. Angelique is left-overs who will marry after being settled for. Betty is the wanna-be Desiree. Cathy is who you want to marry lol.
No, not Cathy. I married Cathy once upon a time. Cathy is a big risk. I realize you are saying that the risky Cathys are really Bettys, but that’s a fine line distinction — most Cathy’s lean either towards being more Angelique or more Desiree, and in my personal experience, Cathy is a huge risk. Angelique is the one we want to marry — she isn’t a left over, but the right woman to be a wife. Cathy isn’t.
I know there is this temptation to favor the “happy middle”, but in this case, that doesn’t work — at least not for men. Of course, it works for Cathy when she is marketing herself as the “perfect middle ground” like a kind of Goldilocks. Unfortunately, fairy tales aren’t real.
#221 Hey, Comment 256 Alison,
I’m 64 now and never have been attractive. Short white hair, etc. I’ve been married twice for 34 years together (married now). And I’ve been turned down for dates by lesser women than you.
Did you catch that? You agree with it, right? That you’re better, etc.? And I’ve been turned down by many dozens of very (very!) ordinary women over my single years, as well as women who believed themselves to be much better. You may have been one.
#228 Mary Ann had twenty times as much fan mail as Ginger.
#219 re: “Mine actually preached against marriage.”
I call troll.
#213 re: “I don’t know how he feels about me”
If he isn’t obviously in love, then he’s not in-love in-love.
I’m trying to work things out by looking outside the religion for someone who would be willing to convert but not get so deep into it that they eschew marriage also.
No, that isn’t going to work. Don’t do that.
@ Colorado Girl
What Jimmy Hendricks is saying to you is that you is that after a while you CAN and should open up to the guy about how crazy you are about him and that you want to marry him. Most decent guys will not be turned off by that – in fact they will appreciate it.
The real takeaway is:
EVAN MARK KATZ is NOT Red Pill
Evidence:
1) Over-reliance on credentials, such as income and education. This stems from a person who is not truly internally confident about who they are as a person, and therefore must see themselves reflected in the credentialist mirror in order to feel validated: “Diploma, Diploma, on the wall, who’s the smartest one of all?”
2) Catty political jabs used outside the political domain. Evan obviously is so enraged that anyone else might think differently than him, that he cannot resist putting his angry bumper stickers all over whatever conversational vehicle he finds himself riding in.
3) He makes a pretense of being open to a discussion, but his barely concealed hostility to J4G readers and his obvious contempt for anyone who disagrees with him is plainly seen by all.
4) The anger and passive aggression is strong in this one. There is an unusual temper-tantrum aspect to some of his engagements – like someone who is used to having his arguments ignored.
5) Despite pretenses to the contrary, he does not seem comfortable in his own skin. He seems edgy and ready strike out. A defensive nature is one of the first things a true red pill man should have weeded out.
To me, all these attributes add up to a man who is exhibiting deeply unmasculine behavior. This is wholly incompatible with the idea of being red pill.
There is one more thing that proves that EMK is a man with a very fragile sense of self:
People use weapons they think will work. EMK obviously would be knocked out of his frame by someone else making snarky comments about liberals and things that liberals get wrong all the time.
Evan, if you’re reading this, I just smiled at your David-Spade passive aggression, and will vote a straight conservative ticket this fall. I will even imagine you getting mad and writing mean words about me.
However, as a concession, I will place you as a write-in candidate for at least one office. Nothing major, of course, perhaps county commissioner. You willing to relocate if you win? Just asking.
Anyway, Evan Mark Katz is not red pill and he is not operating in a very masculine frame at all, as evidence by the above. He relies too much on external validation for himself, and for passive aggression for rhetorical engagement. The soothing persona he uses on his blog masks a very angry man.
I can’t take him seriously until he decides to drop his method of bellicose conversational preemption, and actually engage like a man.
re: “no woman worth her salt”
You mean no woman worth her skittles.
“Hopefully this gives you a little bit of empathy for what the vast majority of guys have to go through.”
Are you saying men suffer heartbreak more than women?
Colorado girl
You’re reading to much into that. It simply means this site will show you a guys perspective.
#213 re: “I don’t know how he feels about me”
“If he isn’t obviously in love, then he’s not in-love in-love.”
I should explain. When I really like a guy I tend to fall hard and early for him. I fell in love with my last boyfriend in a manner of a few weeks and would have married him then too. When I know, I just know. With this new guy I can feel myself falling hard for him too but I’m trying to pace myself and that’s why I’m following family and friends’ advice and going on the occasional date with guys I meet online. Its just to prevent myself from going all in with this one, though they tell me to not put all my eggs in one basket and keep my options open. When I really like a guy I zero in on him and him only. So I’m zeroed in but he doesn’t know it yet. I know he likes me but I can’t know if he feels the same intensity for me that I feel for him and I can’t ask. Not at this point.
#240 “I can’t know if he feels the same intensity for me that I feel for him”
I’m certain that the women I’ve actually been in love with could not possibly have failed to have known. It was too ridiculously obvious. Besides which, I was compelled to tell them immediately, which compulsion is part of being actually in love.
Be that as it may, if you do not think you have previously given him a reason to distrust you in particular and therefore for him to have any reason to play it cool, or cooler than he feels, then he definitely isn’t bothering to play it cool.
I don’t think Confused is trolling. Sounds like she’s a Buddhist or might belong to any other new religious movement (new here, old in its land of origin). I was part of a Buddhist sangha for years and they go pretty hard in the paint on celibacy. Marriage, while not being demonized, sure isn’t encouraged. They certainly don’t theme their lectures around the greatness of marriage and family.
@ Colorado girl while I don’t know the exact situation w the long distance love, of course when things are new its a bit unknown but something I have come to realize w time is this: if you have to ask certain questions, that’s often the answer right there. Be open and responsive and available and kind and pleasant and all the guys say above, and see. A guy who is in too will make it known. Peace!
(Leaves a huge pile of sandwiches and cold watermelon slices and sweet corn and BBQ chips and potato salad and cookies w a note: “for the guys at j4g — you guys are more than alright. Enjoy!”)
@Colorado girl
I’ve seen your post and what the guys here aren’t telling you is that your actions are overly needy towards the guy you fall for. While it’s flattering to have a woman love you like that, it scares the crap out of most men. Men want a partner not an emotional dependent.
I’m not sure if you smother your love interest or not, but there’s a difference between loving strongly and smothering….
Bootysattva is PJ, of course, but the new name is a keeper. I bet you like steely dan.
I don’t think Confused is trolling, but recovering from religious brainwashing might count as one of those “reasons” she isn’t married by late 20s. That said, I don’t think all hope is lost, due to the lack of arrogance in her post.
This is a pretty good comment thread, remarkably balanced between the sexes, despite the rather “incisive” nature of the original post.
Kids are fun, XNY. I’m cooking all day tomorrow with the smoker (pork shoulder barbecue) and taking the kids on a mountain hike. They’re big enough now to not need to be carried!
Yeah, CG. Just make a clean break.
I can’t tell if you’re pining away for someone who doesn’t feel the same way, or looking for a better deal while he’s away. Either way doesn’t bode well for the future. Now, maybe you’ll get back together later, but you don’t sound like you’re built for what amounts to an open relationship.
I did the LDR thing for a few years when my wife was still in college, and neither of us “saw” other people – that would have been the end. That’s not to say we didn’t go out an be social with other people, we did, but they never were romantic prospects. Friends only.
Badger at 16:
That’s exactly how it looks to me. Women can use their female game all they want. But it sounds either selfish or ignorant to insist men stop using their male game to make it easier for the women. And then insist that this is the way to get quality women. And you provide a convincing hypothesis for why he might say all this, and mean it – this method might have worked for him. Much like some men think women are just as sexual as men, because that’s how all their women acted.
The dinner date method sometimes worked for my boyfriend Eivind when he was still single and often incel. He explained that he only did this for women who already seemed like good prospects – women who were nice, and already liked him as it is. You can say the majority of game happened before the dinner date.
@Colorado Girl #207
Thank you for illustrating my point. While I have a special sympathy for people who come out of psychotic religious backgrounds, you very ably demonstrate the issue. A man broke up with you and you spent a year in bed, in therapy, being medicated? I want you to try (and I know this is unlikely), to divorce yourself from your personal situation, and imagine your brother, say, is dating a woman with a history in a cult and of serious mental illness. How sanguine are you about their hypothetical chances? I know many attractive women in their thirties who aren’t married. They are, to a woman, head cases.
I don’t want this to seem overly harsh, because I honestly don’t mean it that way. But for someone to get that emotional over a breakup, to a man, means that he’ll always have to deal with you getting bent out of shape every day of your lives, or that you have serious mental health issues that he’s going to have to deal with for a long time, maybe forever. This is not a complete deal-breaker, but you have to know and account for it. You have to understand this puts you several steps down the mating scale. It limits your options.
Men who see courting a woman (i.e., paying for dinner) as a potential sexual transaction should just see prostitutes instead of wasting their time and the time of decent women looking for a committed relationship.
What’s the point?
(Editor’s Note): Please refrain from making the same point over and over. If no one has addressed your point it is possibly due to your being obtuse. Please stop and move on. Thanks!
*******
What Evan was addressing on his blog had absolutely nothing to do with the men here and the rest in the Manosphere, you all are always looking for an excuse to bitch and moan about women.
Now I am going to stop and move on!
Ok class….. how many times have we seen long distance relationships work? As for me, like never so Colorado Girl needs to end it. LDR’s are a cop-out. Letting you pretend you have something when in reality you do not. Kill all contact, go cold turkey on that deal and face the real world darling. You’ll be happier for it. In the long term. Which isn’t women’s strong point but there it is
oh yeah, and men like young/younger women, so if you as a woman are not young any more, then try to date older guys. to a 50 year old man, a 40 year old woman is a delightful spring chicken.
By chance I watched a couple of episodes of Married With Children last night (towards the end of season 6, before they go Engerland) including ‘Teacher Pets’
(for Liz – Remember the Wanker family? as in Peggy Wanker of Wanker County? Well the Bundys’ chosen spiritual guide is Reverend Felcher. I don’t believe that these smutty names are coincidental anymore, not that I ever really did. Just checked IMDB that say the name was Fletcher…hmmm, not what I heard).
But the main point was that Bud started dating a rather attractive woman…his forty year old teacher
episode http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0642385/?ref_=ttep_ep21
teacher (Linda Gibboney who was indeed 40, mmmm quality nice) http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0316520/?ref_=tt_cl_t8
Al said
Does that help out the Katz Women?
(sorry Obs, but I liked that one…can I plead special circumstances?)
I mean, yeah. Whining about women is at the forefront of mind. My niece’s 1 year old birthday party is tomorrow, I am going to see Return of the King with a live orchestra tonight, my Mother-In-Law’s birthday is Sunday, my friend and I are going to grill some steaks at his downtown loft tomorrow, and I want to finish up this blog post I have been working on for a month or so for my own blog, and I want to write something for J4G (going to base it off a Disney Movie, so sue me), and then in the back of my mind I am worried about Russia banning food imports, and now we’re dropping bombs on ISIL in Iraq, and I actually have an important meeting on Tuesday to prepare for….
But yeah after all that I am just looking for reasons to pick on girls over the internet. Yeppers.
Re: LDR
Did it for quite a while. Not really fun. Would advise against it if possible. I liked having my space, though. Now it’s a little bit more challenging, what with her living with me, and her seeming to think that she gets any opinions on the kitchen at all.
Very nice to have someone closer, though. Avoid LDR unless you’re uber-serious.
@ADBG
regards the kitchen; at least she keeps your pots clean
@ Spawny
“Look, Husby, I got that disgusting black off your cast iron finally!”
She’s working from home and doing laundry today, though, so no complaints.
Swithy: Reverend Felcher? lol!
I have to started watching those reruns…haven’t seen the show in years and a lot of the humor/innuendo must have been lost with me then.
Colorado girl, I’ve only been in love once (and still am). If, as you’ve described, you tend to “fall hard, and right away” you might be able to compare and see some commonality to understand exactly what it is you’re attracted to in these men who won’t commit to you when you are so intensely enamored with them.
It helps to understand oneself and from the sound of things (not knowing your situation, I can only go by what you’ve stated here) it sounds as the though their emotional inavailability and inattachment to you might be part of the equation.
@Liz
I have just checked. At around 11:20 Kelly picks up the phone (after Bud says he has a date) and says, “Hello, Reverend Felcher? Has hell frozen over?”
No way was that ‘Fletcher’. An ad lib, or a tidied up (cleansed) script? Or can you guys not say Fletcher (the guy who sticks the ‘fins’ on arrows iirc), in the same way you mispronounce Bicester, Worcester, Gloucestershire etc?
Which reminds me. You may recognise the rather handsome visage in this clip where an English doppelganger for a Nazi professor starts teaching Nazi spies under training the correct greeting used in England (clearly so they get caught rather quickly) he later does the same with place names (Bicester which should sound like ‘bister’ not ‘bi-sester’, Gloucestershire ‘glostersheer’, Worcester ‘wooster’). Looking for that clip ‘The Goose steps out’
@ Tarrou
Confused =/= Colorado Girl
@ ADBG
I’m rather happy to see the airstrikes against Islamic State. First military action in a long while that I can get 100% behind.
@ ADBG #257
ROFL.
Fuck Iraq; they did not want to sign a status of forces agreement with the usa. If they did we would have left a couple of bct’s around and shot wouldn’t have spiraled (more) out of control. Now they are paying the price for trying to play both sides of the fence
It is likely our air strikes are in support of Iranian ground forces…. once again showing how Obama has ensured militant islam (as if there is another version) has the best air force in the world. Once again proving we are the dumbest, most corrupt nation of all times
#240 re: pacing yourself while falling.
It’s kind of hard to slow down a free fall. The old style deorbiting solution was an expendable heat shield that burned off ablatively thereby diluting the effects through a considerable distance of atmosphere. A somewhat more sophisticated way is to use wings to slow down by “falling with style” through the intervening medium. As noted, this process by definition must take more time than just falling.
I think you are correct that reaching out to others slows it down by defocusing from the One, diluting and diffusing and redirecting your attentions. So, we’ve identified the falling medium as attention.
I never did fly, aka fall with style, myself. In one hilariously painful episode spread over a couple of weeks I felt myself falling and got angry with her for “making” me. “what are you doing to me?” etc. And yet she had my attention for sure. Hey, you jade, you.
I’m not sure what is the ground that gets impacted. Naturally I splat, and it’s messy, and I stays splatted. It is the splat that lets me know I’ve arrived.
I have become convinced I probably could do falling with style sometime, maybe, although it better be sooner than later …
I’m almost certain there cannot be splatting with style (reference my current near fascination with hammer painting). Flying almost implies a different sort of soft landing than crash landing. And I’m not convinced that never feeling I’ve arrived, being unchanged, being ready to do it all again tomorrow, ho hum another flight, would be a Good Thing
Dalrock does keep pointing out that the never marrieds are piling up. The hypothetical that EMK put forward is not so hypothetical. There are a lot of 38 yo “Quality” women out there who have never married and there will be more in the foreseeable future.
I don’t think that it’s men at the root of the issue. I think it’s women being picky. In one of his posts, Privateman describes a hen party for somenoe who has just signed up for online dating. Over the course of the evening, the hens reject them all. Obsidian’s story of Paul Carrick Bruson’s event describes how the women didn’t take it seriously while the men did. Had not PCB brought in more men with extra effort, these women would have been looking at a 7 to 1 female to male ratio.
Not good.
#266 “Over the course of the evening, the hens reject them all.”
I concluded after my first half dozen dates, after my divorce, that women enjoy rejecting more than they enjoy accepting.
Matt Walsh and EMK tell men to wear their hearts on their sleeves, arrange and pay for dates, and tell these women all about how they feel. Mr. Walsh and EMK, and their useful idiot choruses, are telling men that they will “clean up” if they do these things with the women they’re attracted to.
They’re all forgetting one tiny detail.
The primary metric a man should be assessing BEFORE he does any of this is how sexually desirable she finds him to be. And that’s a function of his overall sexual desirability.
What a man should be asking himself about her is:
Does this woman want to have sex with me?
Not “does she want to get married?”
Not “does she like me?”
Not “does she like spending time with me?”’
Not “She seems to like me and seems to like spending time with me”.
Not even “we had sex, and it seemed to be good”.
No. The SOLE criterion here is: Does she WANT to HAVE SEX with ME?”
First: Want. She has to WANT to have sex with you. Not “she feels she has to have sex with you to reciprocate”. Not “she feels she has to have sex with you or she is going to lose you as a potential beta bux provider.” Not “she’s holding up her end of the exchange”. None of that. It has to be that she WANTS to have sex with you out of a position of genuine sexual desire. Anything else is negotiation, and will fail miserably.
Second: Have sex. It has to be SEXUAL desire. It has to be “I want to fuck that guy”. It has to be “That guy turns me on so hard I can’t see straight”. Not “I really like hanging out with him”. Not “I like it when he touches me gently”. Not “I like holding hands with him”. Not “he makes me so comfy”. No. It has to be “I want him to rip my clothes off, throw me on the bed, and do whatever he wants with me for a rip-roaring good time”.
Third: With me. It has to be that she wants to have sex WITH YOU. YOU are the object of her desire. Not that you’re a substitute for the guy she REALLY wanted to have sex with but couldn’t lock down. Not “you’re not the best guy or the hottest guy, but you’re the last guy”. Not that you’re the planned out sperm donor for the children she has finally decided she’s ready to have. Not that you’re the Dad after the line of Cads she gave it up to before. Not “I really like sex, and it’s OK with you”. No. None of that will do. It has to be that she wants sex WITH YOU because of WHO YOU ARE and not because of what you do, or who you know, or what you represent, or how you feel, or how she feels, or your balance sheet solvency, or anything other than WHO YOU ARE.
And if the answers to any of these are “NO”, then you go.
And if you are finding routinely that you are failing, then it is probably because you are not attractive enough. You need to hit the gym, stop being a fatass, stop being a whiny bitch pussy, make some money, buy some fun toys for yourself, get something else going on in your life, and then get back to dating.
And you sure as fuck need to stop spending time and money arranging and attending dates with women who do not want to have sex with you.
“Please don’t respond by issuing more false ad hominem attacks on me or my readers – who are like me, moderately attractive, Ivy League, six figure earners – not a bunch of losers as you would suggest.”
EMK wants to tell US, who is a winner and who is a loser. HA
How about this…A 38 year old woman is a losing bet assuming all else equal FULL STOP.
Jf12,
I have to agree with you, not that you will ever get a woman to admit it. Maybe it’s the exercise in power. What is not commonly understood is that all of us have a limited capacity for rejection.
I agree w O 100%, there is no room for violence from either gender. I have never hit a man in anger (or otherwise unless it was a playful slap on the back or something, nothing violent for sure) and can’t imagine even doing so. Likewise I have never been hit. That would be a deal breaker for Bloom. I am a peace and love gal!
I have ended relationships when a man threatened to hit or almost hit tho.
Why are we talking about Iraq? we all know that we just look for any reason to pick on women. that’s all we care about!
In seriousness, the limited air strikes are pointless. The time to seriously stop ISIS was a while ago. Right now they are in a steady-state in Iraq, and pushing through into Syria. The real fighting is between Shia militias and ISIS down in Tikrit.
Letting ISIS fester is probably a bad idea, but getting rid of them requires a regional framework. The Gulf States didn’t want to give that, and the Iraqi government won’t commit itself to not becoming a Shi’a state that runs rough-shod over Sunnis and Kurds and the other minorities, so what’s the point?
As it stands, our problem is that ISIS is now a stable entity with $2 billion and several divsions worth of equipment. It can threaten Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Kurdistan. It can export trained, armed crazies. Iraq is falling under the influence of Iran (more than it already is) and Russia (who is giving Iraq an air force, when we aren’t). ISIS is also conducting a new offensive in Syria, that is pretty succesful ATM.
Notice how I don’t mention some minorities on a mountain, because they AIN’T a strategic objective.
Deti @ 268
Steel on target.
But here is the rub. For a man that is looking for a more sexually conservative woman (that is lowish N, minimum casual sexual history, etc.) it may be very difficult to figure out if she really does have true sexual desire for him. Further, the women most likely to easily make that desire known are NOT generally going to be low N, non-casual women.
Put another way: conservative women don’t tend to broadcast their sexual desires, and women that DO broadcast them are rarely conservative. And to make matters worse, the cooler IOI’s a conservative woman may toss out probably come across as disinterest compared to the type of response a more sexually liberal woman would produce. (Conservative woman may show interest with subtle body language, while the liberal one just jumps in his lap.)
Also, to some extent, wouldn’t a conservative women showing real sexual interest tend to make a man nervous that he is actually dealing with a liberal sexer playing demure?
ADBG: “Iraq is falling under the influence of Iran (more than it already is) and Russia (who is giving Iraq an air force, when we aren’t). ISIS is also conducting a new offensive in Syria, that is pretty succesful ATM.”
Second verse, same (at least, not so much different from) as the first. History rhymes.
Going back through the comments I missed. “Colorado girl, I’ve only been in love once (and still am). If, as you’ve described, you tend to “fall hard, and right away” you might be able to compare and see some commonality to understand exactly what it is you’re attracted to in these men who won’t commit to you when you are so intensely enamored with them.”
Hmm. Never said that. I was in love once. He was committed to me for two and a half years. But he didn’t propose marriage and when push came to shove, he bailed. Family says he just wasn’t ready.
The current guy. I’m not in love with him yet but I am falling for him. Pacing myself because otherwise I would have been broke from my impulse to fly out and see him every weekend and my family doesn’t want to see me give my all to someone and get hurt again.
I guess I’ll just see where it goes. See if he takes it to the next level or not. I’m trying to remain detached in the face of a growing attachment.
Also, to some extent, wouldn’t a conservative women showing real sexual interest tend to make a man nervous that he is actually dealing with a liberal sexer playing demure?
This is an issue, I agree. That’s where the rest of the vetting comes in — background, family of origin, friend circles, and so on.
In terms of gauging the sexual interest/passion itself, making out, which is sexual but doesn’t involve sex, can be a pretty good barometer –> how passionate/engaged/involved she is during it. This can be faked, again, but if you cross-check with other vetting vectors, like mentioned above, it can be a pretty good indicator.
Colorado girl: “Hmm. Never said that. I was in love once. He was committed to me for two and a half years. But he didn’t propose marriage and when push came to shove, he bailed. Family says he just wasn’t ready.”
If he bailed he couldn’t have been very committed.
@235
^ Thread winner right there.
@Colorado Girl
“Now I’m falling for another one. I don’t know how he feels about me, not allowed to ask, that’s clingy, possessive, desperate they say, but I swear to god if he breaks my heart I’m just going to throw in the goddamn towel once and for all and become a man eater”
Ok, I’ve lurked for a hot minute but let me say this. One of my recent relationships ended with the girl telling me that she’d fallen in love and that she wanted it to develop into a marriage and kids, and I was not ready, plus circumstances were not at all favorable for either of us (she was leaving the state to go back for grad school). As a guy, this sort of thing gives you pause, not because we’re shitting our pants or quaking in our boots, but because SOME OF US KEEP OUR WORD AND KNOW WHAT COMMITMENT MEANS. I will not under and circumstances make you a promise that I can’t keep. Frankly I’m not too sure a lot of women, particularly young ones, really know exactly what it means for you to tell someone you want to spend forever with them and have your children. This is not a merit badge to be pinned on or something that you do “just because”. Now, I am not suggesting that this is how you approached it, so don’t get mad at me. But consider that this is a big deal, AND it depends on another person being ready to receive you into their life in (ideally) the most permanent of ways. I can introduce you to men with failed engagements as well so this cuts both ways, and yes, it’s fucking devastating.
Also, know that life comes with NO GUARANTEES- some people start a business that is their heart and soul, their purpose in life, and lose it, along with their savings, and end up spending years paying off their gamble. Some people put all their eggs into one basket (and in a way that would seem wise at the time) only to fail. Relationships are no different in that respect. One thing I would say is to advise you of something that I am also working on- and that is to *be the center of your own sense of fulfillment and the source of your own happiness*, to the point where being alone is not a big factor in your sense of self.
I am not minimizing your heartbreak in any way, but there are people in this world who have been through lots more hell and high water than any of us in the first world could ever imagine. Hope this relationship works out for you.
PS- tip my hat to you gents on this discussion, very relevant.
#278 “If he bailed he couldn’t have been” in love.
I’m reasonably certain a lot of individuals have been in love with me, starry-eyed, over the moon, you can’t sleep, you can’t eat, there’s no doubt, you’re in deep, your throat is tight, you can’t breathe. You know what I mean. Unfortunately as far as I can tell these individuals have tended to be
1. Pets, mostly mine but also some other people’s pets.
2. Children. Mostly other people’s.
3. Some male groupies.
I seriously do not believe any woman has ever been in love with me, and yes I do have my doubts about what grown women mean when they say they are in love.
More relevant than it ought to be, or something:
http://therationalmale.com/2011/12/27/women-in-love/
@ ADBG
The minorities on the mountain are the only ground troops in Iraq (aside from the limited Republican Guards troops) capable of fighting Islamic State. That makes them relevant, inasmuch as belatedly stopping Islamic State means they need to be supported.
@ Brohamlet,
“Ok, I’ve lurked for a hot minute but let me say this. One of my recent relationships ended with the girl telling me that she’d fallen in love and that she wanted it to develop into a marriage and kids, and I was not ready, plus circumstances were not at all favorable for either of us (she was leaving the state to go back for grad school). As a guy, this sort of thing gives you pause, not because we’re shitting our pants or quaking in our boots, but because SOME OF US KEEP OUR WORD AND KNOW WHAT COMMITMENT MEANS. I will not under and circumstances make you a promise that I can’t keep. ”
I’m glad you said something. He was 25 so he may have thought he was too young to marry. Two years later and as far as I’ve heard he’s still not married and hasn’t been in a relationship. People today can live together for years on end and not even talk marriage. I know someone who’s been living with a man for 8 years and whenever people ask if they’re ever getting married she just shrugs and says maybe. Same as when they ask her if they’re ever having kids. There’s a lot of ambivalence about these things. My main issue in navigating this is that I am not ambivalent. I have milestones that I want to cross and marriage and children are two of them. But a lot of young people out there today do not set milestones and they are totally ambivalent about relationships.
Anyway one thing is for certain and that is I will not be one of those 38 year old childless women on the make. If I don’t cross one milestone I will make damn sure I cross the other.
“Anyway one thing is for certain and that is I will not be one of those 38 year old childless women on the make. If I don’t cross one milestone I will make damn sure I cross the other.”
I hope this doesn’t mean that if you don’t cross the marriage milestone you’ll make sure you have kids without a committed father in their lives. There are way too many of those kids around already.
I know someone who’s been living with a man for 8 years and whenever people ask if they’re ever getting married she just shrugs and says maybe. Same as when they ask her if they’re ever having kids. There’s a lot of ambivalence about these things.
It occurs to me that someone who would “play house” for years with someone else to whom they have neither committed nor sought any sign of binding commitment from, and to whom they are “meh” about committing (or getting commitment from) is, not putting too fine a point on it, NOT suitable material for any sort of LTR.
Liz #286
Cosigned loudly. The most selfish thing any woman can do is bring a child into the world without a committed husband and father in her life just because she (thinks she) has baby rabies.
@Colorado Girl 285
“I have milestones that I want to cross and marriage and children are two of them.”
For many guys these days, 25 is going to be when they’re just hitting their stride with work and women. Understand that this age range is where the world really starts to open up for guys, so it’s hard to cash in your chips at that age. I didn’t, and for really ambitious guys marriage may also be less attractive at that age.
Also, be VERY careful when you say “milestones”. Have you really considered what that sounds like? Do you want a person to walk through life with, or is this a box to check? You need to ask yourself this question VERY honestly, and if the answer is the latter you have to understand that in today’s climate any guy with sense would do well to avoid you until you are sure you want commitment because you can’t live without him, not just for the sake of convention.
“For many guys these days, 25 is going to be when they’re just hitting their stride with work and women. Understand that this age range is where the world really starts to open up for guys, so it’s hard to cash in your chips at that age. ”
Yeah I know. But my ex was doing very well for himself at that age. The current guy I’m interested in is 30, I hope that helps.
“Also, be VERY careful when you say “milestones”. Have you really considered what that sounds like?”
I’m not ambivalent about life.
“Do you want a person to walk through life with, or is this a box to check? ”
Neither. I want a family. If I had to “walk through life” with a man who did not want kids I wouldn’t do it. What would be the point?
re#280 BroHamlet As a guy, this sort of thing gives you pause, not because we’re shitting our pants or quaking in our boots, but because SOME OF US KEEP OUR WORD AND KNOW WHAT COMMITMENT MEANS. I will not under and circumstances make you a promise that I can’t keep.
Spot on. Someone accused me once of being commitment phobic and I told them I wasn’t afraid of commitment but of not being able to keep them.
re: women liking to reject men
There was a post over at The Rules Revisited where he talked about how girls keep score (I think it was there, I couldn’t find it.) But the jist was, to go back to Angelique and Desiree, Angelique would reject one of Desirees cast offs so she could score points against Desiree. It was an interesting little bit of explaining hamsterbation. The rejection had nothing to do with the guy but about elevating herself against Desiree.
“Spot on. Someone accused me once of being commitment phobic and I told them I wasn’t afraid of commitment but of not being able to keep them.”
What’s the difference? Committed people know that there’s a possibility of failure but they are committed to not letting that happen.
Commitment is not a passive thing that just happens to you. Its something that you actively DO.
Rollo Tomassi’s new post demonstrates mastery.
He simplifies this conversation. Intriguing.
#240 @Colorado Girl
Based on these things:
– You were ready to marry your previous boyfriend in a few weeks
and
– Your family and friends are really concerned about how fast you’re moving with the current guy
not to mention
– It took you a whole year (that’s a while!) to stop being depressed over someone you were with for just two years of your life
I’d say all you need to do is listen to your folks and slow it down a little bit. They know you, and they have your back. It doesn’t even have to be about dating other guys…just have other things in your life to focus on besides a guy for a while, so that you don’t get caught up so quickly. You’ll be fine…relax
If he’s into you, he’ll show you.
Evan Marc Katz is quoted throughout this book by Lori Gottlieb
He gives her sound advice.
l these individuals have tended to be
1. Pets, mostly mine but also some other people’s pets.
2. Children. Mostly other people’s.
3. Some male groupies.
I seriously do not believe any woman has ever been in love with me,
Were the pets male or female?
Were the children male or female?
The most selfish thing any woman can do is bring a child into the world without a committed husband and father
The government does not agree with you. And they are bigger than you. And they have a monopoly on forc.
EMK says,
This strategy has to be 100% beneficial to her short and long term desires
Really? No compromises allowed? Everything must be perfect?
No compromises allowed? Everything must be perfect?
Well, yeah. Because they deserve it.
#296 re: pets and children. Male and female.
#298 Not also that if they are 100% beneficial to her then nothing is left over to be beneficial to him
I keep wondering how a woman with a 6 figure income and an ivy league education would benefit a man’s life if he also has a 6 figure income and an ivy league education. Seems to me those aren’t missing in his life.
Girl #1 is 27, with a state school education and an almost 6 figure income so I don’t reckon the ivy league education is required and she is 11 years younger then mek client. It’s not her income that earned her way into my life but her defense of my character and integrity. Plus, you know blonde hair, blue eyes and an amazing body. Being a nurse practitioner is a plus as I get injured a lot but I doubt that is true for most dudes and she was probably skilled enough as an RN.
Really the more I think about it, the more arrogant the other side become.
re: romantic love. I become daily more convinced that like all things sexual, romantic love is vestigial in women, and principally experienced by women as mother-child love. Secondarily as catlady-cat love of course.
The only mention in the Bible of angels desiring anything is in 1 Peter 1:12 “things the angels desire to look into.” The love of God for mankind, with salvation by grace with suffering, is something angels cannot experience. I think the fact that women cannot experience romantic love “as much as” men can is the reason that women are so interested in, so desire to look into, romance stories.
I could be wrong, but I would need more convincing than yesterday.
I keep wondering how a woman with a 6 figure income and an ivy league education would benefit a man’s life if he also has a 6 figure income and an ivy league education.
Such a woman has no relationship value whatsoever to ANY man unless:
– he is addicted to female drama.
– he is addicted to competition from women.
– he is addicted to being on the receiving end of attitude.
– he lacks self-esteem.
– he wants to be the passive partner in the marriage and likes being dominated.
– he is a male feminist.
I keep wondering how a woman with a 6 figure income and an ivy league education would benefit a man’s life if he also has a 6 figure income and an ivy league education.
Bill and Hillary, examples they are not
Sfcton,
“Really, the more I think about it, the more arrogant the other side becomes.”
I have been musing along those lines as well.
Isn’t there a saying in the Old Testament about “Pride goeth before the fall”?
@ferrum Nice work using the word “trollop” Anyone searching the words “troll” or “Rollo” find your comments. As things have happened, Rollo has explained this whole affair in his latest post at@RationalMale
EMK says,
you will realize that you sound exactly like the women you decry on Jezebel
Really? Sure, some fellas are a bit hot. But mostly, threads are about trying to get to the reality of the world.
Can Jezebel say the same?
EMK says,
All I know is that most self respecting women reading this thread would be suitably horrified by how little you think of their gender overall
Not precisely. It is modern women that the fellas have a beef with, not the gender overall. Perhaps women would be horrified by reading a typical thread here, but perhaps they may learn something useful about how the world really is.
P.S. NAWALT
EMK says,
Assume that women suck and that being an alpha skittles guy is the way to go and no woman worth her salt will stick around to find out how great you are.
True enough. Yet the full on “skittles” approach is never really advocated here at J4G. Confidence and the resulting submission are what is advocated.
Still, in the olden days learning such skills was not needed to bring a woman to heel. Things have not changed for the better.
EMK says,
you want a feminine woman who appreciates you and makes you feel like a king.
I wonder how many $100K Ivy League women fit that description…
EMK says,
The way I see it, if hardcore feminists don’t like me and MRAs/PUAs don’t like me, I’m doing something very right.
Really? Just because two opposing sides don’t like you, then you are doing something right?
I assume that you are implicitly invoking the “the right answer is in the middle” concept. Which is a variation of “everything in moderation”. Both are fine ideas in many cases, but do not universally apply.
“you want a feminine woman who appreciates you and makes you feel like a king.
“I wonder how many $100K Ivy League women fit that description…”
About as many $100K Ivy League men are masculine and make their women feel like queens.
http://princehamilton.blogspot.com/2011/11/american-men-do-not-know-how-to-treat.html
@Colorado Girl #238
[blockquote]Are you saying men suffer heartbreak more than women?[/blockquote]
Yes, I am saying that men of average and lower attraction suffer more rejection related pain than women of average and lower attraction. The fact that you were so torn up about a single break up tells me you don’t have much experience with outright rejection. From my own experiences, I can tell you that the first five years of near constant rejection hurts like hell, but you start to become numb to it after the next five (and you learn how to overcome your failings in the process).
We’ve heard a lot about how head over heels you were for guy one, how difficult it was for you to get over him, and how serious you are about marriage. What we haven’t heard, is what you have ACTIVELY done to screen for the right marriage minded men. Now I’ll gladly eat my words and admit that I’m wrong if you can demonstrate that I am, but I predict that this is how it went down with guy #1:
He was an above average looking guy (no Adonis to be sure, but good looking enough to not have to work hard for female attention) who had been dating around for a while when you two started dating. You were hooked on him right away, but his intent was a mystery…did he REALLY like you? did he not? After a while, your heart was too full of longing and you had to lock him down or go separate ways, so you told him that it was time to be exclusive. To your excitement he agreed, though he didn’t seem overly enthusiastic about it, you realized that it was just because he’s a masculine guy and has trouble showing his emotions. Throughout the relationship everything is great…except for some reason it seems that you are the one putting in more effort than him, but that’s okay because he tells you that you are beautiful and amazing, and that he has a hard time thinking about not being with you. Then, one day, you realize it has been over two years, and it’s time to start getting serious. You make your hints for him to propose and he goes ghost.
In other words, I think you fell for a guy who had plenty of options who was happy to settle into an easy rhythm with you. Rather than pre-screening him for indications that he was serious minded and on a marriage track, you enjoyed the ride for a few years before deciding it was time to start getting serious. Afterwards, you concluded that your problem was that you “show your attachment too easily” rather than concluding that you should be actively screening for marriage minded qualities before becoming attached.
#313 lol American women are by far the most spoiled and have been for a century.
We American men all know that spoiling a woman doesn’t work to get her to act right, but we are brainwashed from the moment we are born to think it ought to work that way. Some of us discover, some later rather than sooner, that rewarding her *after* she acts right, i.e. positive reinforcement, works better than nothing, and certainly a whole lot better than spoiling.
But positive reinforcement doesn’t work very well *especially* on organisms that have been spoiled. What works MUCH better is negative reinforcement. The dirtiest secret in all of science is that human females as a group compared to all other groups are the most amenable to negative reinforcement. From a rape-y evo-psych pov this is probably because it is important for our species for the females to stop struggling and yield after it hurts. But it all is highly covered up, not to say classified.
And even this is entirely the wrong frame. Women ought to be rewarding men: women ought to be bringing men gifts of chocolate and flowers for sex. I say this after making breakfast for my 64 yr old wife as a positive reinforcement. I’m reasonably certain she cannot even get sexually turned on without me exerting considerable effort, and I’m more certain she has never orgasmed, not once in her life, without me.
@Colorado Girl
“Yeah I know. But my ex was doing very well for himself at that age. The current guy I’m interested in is 30, I hope that helps.”
So was I at that age, and for some of us, it makes us value our “freedom” more. Seems like these days 30 and older is increasingly viewed as a better look for men settling down, though, so your chances may be good.
“I’m not ambivalent about life.”
Great for you, but remember that there is one other huge variable that’s required in what seems to be your binary equation for happiness: another person with dreams and goals all their own.
“Neither. I want a family. If I had to “walk through life” with a man who did not want kids I wouldn’t do it. What would be the point?”
Now, step back for a second and take a look at the above statement from the standpoint of the man who you require to provide you with said family. Is he there for more or less utilitarian reasons? The way you are phrasing things certainly makes it seem that way. Is having a family an outgrowth of the fact that you love him, to a greater degree than the fact that you just want to accomplish your goal? I ask because the language you are using and the vibe you’re giving off that everyone here seems to be picking up on suggests that you basically want this goal to happen at any cost. This could become problematic for the person enabling you to achieve that goal for several reasons.
If I’m misreading you, let me know.
@Commitmentphile 292:
“Commitment is not a passive thing that just happens to you. Its something that you actively DO.”
Yes, exactly, and you don’t enter a commitment with someone who may just be asking for commitment as a matter of course. “Because that’s what people do” is not a great reason to do anything, but people do things because they’re “supposed to” all the time.
#314 Pellaeon “In other words, I think you fell for a guy who had plenty of options who was happy to settle into an easy rhythm with you. Rather than pre-screening him for indications that he was serious minded and on a marriage track, you enjoyed the ride for a few years before deciding it was time to start getting serious. Afterwards, you concluded that your problem was that you “show your attachment too easily” rather than concluding that you should be actively screening for marriage minded qualities before becoming attached.”
+1000
Very well said. I think the same, and I see women do this again and again and again.
@ 318
He’d probably do better with a Harley, broken nose, and a couple of tattoos that almost show/ barely show beneath a sleeve. Or a Ducatti for the umc girls.
Ton #319: agreed, which means that his ability to subsidize courtship costs should be viewed in competition with the guy who is putting more resources into the outlaw hawt-badass lifestyle elements that you describe.
If your analysis is correct, the pre-season prediction would be that more guys will be spending time, energy, and $ on themselves so as to be perceived immediately as hot, or hopefully at least somewhat attractive, with the trade-off being that they have less cash available to deploy in direct subsidies to women. It means that the SMP rapidly converges on “Hot or Die”.
About as many $100K Ivy League men are masculine and make their women feel like queens.
No, Not really. Think about it.
Not that I like defending Ivy League guys…
There does seem to be lots of sites dispensing dating advice to “career women”. There seems to be few sites that dispense advice to ” non career women”. Why is that?
(Editor’s Note): There’s even less devoted to Blue Collar Guys. Why is that?
@ 320
I favor the “bad ass” route because it’s it’s good for the masculine soul, fun in its own right( Sovereign Man concept) and pays decent dividends in the SMP. A little seems to go a long way. The quite computer nerd is what he is in the smp; same guy with a bike, two tattoos and a dozen MMA fights is brooding, silent, dangerous….. You know hawt.
A bike, a pair of tattoos( pair means deliberative defying of social norms, 1 tatt means mistake I regret) and a few war stories/ war wounds let’s you be beta and well rounded with your bad boy cred. Once you have a baseline of dangerous established, practically anything else you add to your Sovereign Man lifestyle adds smp value. It adds depth to the initial tingle generation.
I’ll never break down the money/ economic issues like some of the brothers here but
Motorcycle safety course $200
Used bike $3-4k off cragislist
Helmet $100
Insurances $200 for the year
Two tattoos…. call $500
MMA covers your fitness workout/ better body angel.
I also think the better money/ effort is in day game. Night game seems to lend itself to low success rates and more money; cover charges, more money on booze, larger empathise on fashion, high dollar clothes and what not.
A $3.5k bike and $500 tattoo will last a lifetime. And the fighter/ biker fashion world is cheaper then staying on top of the main stream fashion trends. Not sure what else would bring as much increase in a man’s SMP value in say a year, year and a half. I am somewhat anti-PUA since it seems to be the fake it until you make it route. Where I believe my route is all making it. In 1.5 years of 10 hours a week effort. Add another two hours a week for day game on Saturday.
However mostly I think guys will double down on the beta or go their own way. Sovereign Man concept takes work. A lot at 1st, but for the men who remain in the smp/mmp, yes hot or die will be the fundamental operation conditions.
But a fella like you BB, you’re in a whole other category. I myself play up the beta to soften my demeanour, but I reckon that’s a failed route for the most of men.
@’322
Because we don’t count. Only folks with vaginas or college degrees count. US blue collar dudes are an embarrassment to the better sort of people
Gilligan’s Island might have been quite interesting to examine
I want a “Mary Ann” who will make me coconut cream pies.
There’s even less devoted to Blue Collar Guys. Why is that?
Well, most any red pill manosphere site kind of does this.
(Editor’s Note): Precisely. The burning question is – why?
@Farm Boy
“There does seem to be lots of sites dispensing dating advice to “career women”. There seems to be few sites that dispense advice to ” non career women”. Why is that?”
Upper middle class lonely women… are you kidding
Why do they rob banks, because that’s where the money is”…
re#292 What’s the difference? Committed people know that there’s a possibility of failure but they are committed to not letting that happen.
Commitment is not a passive thing that just happens to you. Its something that you actively DO.
Point taken.
Regarding EMK’s advice for the 38 year old woman, #7 Okrahead gave a fabulous response to that. I’ll add that a 38 year old woman wanting a ring and kids is a tough sell in today’s mating market. I see very few men willing to buy in. At 38, its very likely that a man who wifes her up will have to drop tens of thousands of dollars for IVF because of her rapidly increasing infertility. Second, baby rabies is a huge turn off to men. Many men in that situation see themselves as a means to an end, a sperm donor, instead of a man she genuinely wants to build a future and a legacy with.
To further underscore the point, if she’s an Ivy League, six figure income woman as EMK previously described, she pretty much priced herself out of the market once you factor in said female’s hypergamy.
I disagree with the premise of EMK’s challenge because there’s a man involved in the relationship, more so in a marriage. Therefore, it can’t be just about HER needs. What about HIS needs? Is she willing to meet them? EMK said nothing about that.
Now I have a question: How many men have realized that when it comes to the man up/step up and commit language, you don’t hear this from 21 year old women, or even 25 year old women? It comes mostly from women in their 30’s, in many cases after being kicked off the sex carousel (unless she has baby rabies, which can kick in at 27 or 28).
One of the reasons why marriage and birthrates in the US are at record lows is because the majority of men don’t want to wife up a current/former carousel rider. Feminists will call it sex-positive, but let’s call a spade a spade, shall we? Men are catching on to the AFBB lifestyle many women are living currently, and don’t want to be at the end of her buffet line.
Well I moseyed on over to emk’ s blog and saw his success story feature. Damn those gals are unappealing. If this his idea of quality women with high self esteem…. well this good ol boy is going to say no thanks
Reckon the man has some kind of voodoo power ifin he can couple them gals up. Or “real men” ain’t real picky
#331 Cha-ching!
Why on Earth would a high value man marry a women that was 38? A women’s biological value peaks around 20. A man’s at 40ish. A women that is 38 introduced a HUGE risk of birth defects in her offspring. Only an idiot would marry a women that will have kids when she is 40+ (because they have to date, get engaged and get married.)
And how fucking selfish. Imagine the life that child might have that is born with issues because her unviable eggs are made viable through fertility treatments.
She waited too long so now she has to find a guy that isn’t thinking straight. Simple as that.
#314 Pellaeon you are wrong on all accounts but I appreciate the effort to reach out.
Star Child thanks. I am listening to my family and keeping my options open, meeting other men. Because I like him so much I’m giving current long distance guy until the end of the year to up his ante and failing that, I’ll just move on. I’ve become thick skinned since my previous heartbreak so I’ve no more illusions about love and am approaching this all very pragmatically. If the marriage and family thing doesn’t work out for me within a few years I have a good back up plan.
Gabriel #333 and Dawson#336 I’m so glad you two brought up the subject of fertility and diminishing returns. As a 27 year old woman with only so many eggs this is something I think about daily. We just don’t have the time that men have. Men can create healthy babies into their 50s but for us things can get shaky mid 30s. For women like me that have always wanted to have kids we need a back plan if Mr. Dad never comes along. Honestly I never dreamed I’d not be married by 27 but here I am. I’m financially stable enough that if I’m not at least engaged by 30 I’m going to go ahead and have kids regardless. There are so many options out there today, not just adoption, though I plan to do that too. I simply can’t imagine being one of those late 30s childless women looking to get married and have kids for the first time and I won’t let it happen.
You sound like a smart girl but sadly you are in the minority. Women marry men they don’t really want to be with because their time is running out and you know how that turns out.
I have a 14 year old daughter and I would give her the same advice to follow the path that you are on.
#337 re: pragmatic love.
I wish you the best, really I do, but romantic love, what we’re calling in love (not simple caring love) is the least pragmatic thing in the universe. I have no idea what a soft landing resulting from falling in love might be
@Emily 325
I think assuming mental illness off of what she shared so far is a bit of a leap. Rather, I think she may just have been naive and lacks the critical insight to recognize what her true mistake was.
The feminine imperative claims female victims every once and a while as well. The red pill can be useful to women if they are willing to swallow the bitter truths and take accountability for what happens in their lives. I hope CO does, and I hope she finds the marriage she is looking for.
Dawson Stone I checked your site and agree with you about loyalty and unconditional love but its the exact opposite of what is promoted here so you won’t find many takers in this forum.
“I think she may just have been naive and lacks the critical insight to recognize what her true mistake was.”
What was my true mistake?
Katz doesn’t like Republicans. I guess his clientele are Democrat women.
If the marriage and family thing doesn’t work out for me within a few years I have a good back up plan.
Your timeline for family/babies is an artificial construct that is yours alone and does not seem to take the other humans that will be involved into consideration.
Don’t have babies as a checkbox on your “self fulfillment” plan. Just don’t. Especially if you aren’t married. That is selfish as fuck. We already have plenty of fucked up young men and women that have no fathers in their daily lives. The younger generations of women need to not be so selfish when it comes to babies.
What you don’t seem to be analyzing or examining very much is your propensity to fall hard quickly and then trying to make everything revolve around that, including other human beings. Again, that’s selfish.
Go less with the hormonal rush and more with a slower, more thoughtful approach that takes the man and his long term desires and goals into consideration and not the short term infatuation overriding all else.
Colorado girl: “What was my true mistake?”
This —> (Sgt Ted) “Go less with the hormonal rush and more with a slower, more thoughtful approach that takes the man and his long term desires and goals into consideration and not the short term infatuation overriding all else.”
You also might want to do some realistic calculations about the cost of childcare/what you’ll do if you’re a single mom and the child is sick and can’t go so you miss work, ect. Cost of childcare and healthcare expenses often breaks even two income families so it should be considered when purposely planning single motherhood and that’s ignoring all other costs to society and the child.
@346
Single women ALWAYS ignore the HUGE amounts of money required to raise children. Then, they want other people to pick up the financial slack using unearned sympathy for “how hard it is to raise a kid on your own”. They should not be having kids, period.
CGs thoughtlessness and selfishness stands out and is typical of the modern, SIW’s ignorance.
Another thing. If a man wants to marry you, he will ask. If you have to trick or provide and ultimatum in order to persuade a man to ask you to spend your lives together, he doesn’t want to spend his life with you.
#337. And there it is. Once again, all the negative stereotypes are confirmed.
I think every gal who is single and seeks marriage should read this thread. Instead of it being advice from a bunch of woman haters, I see it as honest truth and some darn good advice if a gal can set aside her pride and think about a relationship being TWO people, not just one (her.)
@ bb flowers for his mom…. that is just f’ing touching! Sniff. I have no doubt all the female readers here are now solidly head over heels for you!
@ fuzzie guys waiting on gals to notice they are sweet on them is sleeping beast (rather than beauty) game. And not every guy ends up like Mike. Mike isn’t the problem, it’s Diva that’s the problem. Screening heavy for non-Diva is key, I’d think.
@ everyone, thanks again for all I have learned here and all you guys have taught me about men and relationships! More women should be reading this! And agreed 100% better to not commit than make a commitment one isn’t going to keep.
@ the ladies, bottom line, be a woman worth committing to, rather than thinking a guy owes commitment just for time in or something. If he’s not committing, the gal may be wise to look within and at what she could be doing better rather than blame… true, some men will not commit but screening those out early should solve that issue. I have seen the guys here say many a time they would not hesitate to commit to a woman who is worthy of it (pleasant, kind, helpful, loving, caring, nurturing, feminine, a good cook, etc. Wife qualities. Mom qualities.) Men are not attracted to women because of their education or career, that’s what women are attracted to in men and we project/confuse what we want with what they want. Men don’t want women who are acting like men, they want women who are acting like women. See this: http://notesfromaredpillgirl.com/2014/04/24/dont-confuse-what-you-want-with-what-he-wants/
@’350
I’ve committed to three….. sort of
Bloom,
You have been missed!
Those non-Divas are thin on the ground.
You’re spot on about “Sleeping Beast” mode.
ladies, bottom line, be a woman worth committing to
Oddly enough, this common sense approach escapes women.
Perhaps it is projection. They chase after bad boys not worth committing to, so they see no need to be “worth committing to”.
Timely advice for CG on how not to pick a wrong ‘un
http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=JZ0jRuASVEQ
OR maybe
http://www.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=JZ0jRuASVEQ
@ Fuzzie looks like I have missed a lot of great discussion! It’s been a busy weekend, my biz is in full swing and I work weekends so I will have to get caught up!
Long story short, ladies:
Soyez le changement que vous voulez voir
or Gentlemen:
Sei die Veränderung, die Sie sehen wollen
To save everyone the trouble of translating:
Be the change you want to see
This post screams for frame-oriented analysis.
Design a dating strategy for a high quality 38 year old woman who wants to get married and have children.
Whose definition of “high quality”? Men’s or women’s? High quality for men means young and attractive. 38 is not young. A high salary is attractive for marriage if she can juggle family/career while keeping hubby sexually satisfied (she needs to be a unicorn). Ivy League is a downer because it implies intellectual snobbery. Unattractive.
Others have pointed out the fecundity issues.
1. She needs to get tested for fertility/fecundity! That could be a selling point.
2. Create a website with photos as I’ve mentioned before.
3. Hire a marriage broker toute de suite. (“Rat now,” for those of you living in Rio Linda)
This strategy has to be 100% beneficial to her short and long term desires, so that she can find a similar high quality relationship oriented man without wasting a ton of time or getting her heart broken by sleeping around.
100% beneficial to her short and long term desires
What if those desires are contradictory? Short term desires = sex with alphas who don’t want to commit. Long term desires = marrying an alpha (like finding a unicorn) or maybe settling for beta bux. Where is there any thought given to what desirable men want?
a similar high quality relationship oriented man
What does this mean? A 1950’s beta? Betas in the 1950s had high status, but the status of men has taken a dive since then. She needs a DeLorean equipped with a flux capacitor in order to go marry a 1950’s beta.
Maybe it means a high-income beta. Betas will marry less attractive women if there’s romance. For romance, the woman needs to demonstrate her sweetness and warmth. The website can help with this. The woman will have to give up a lot of sexual attraction if she goes this route, though, so it may violate her long-term desires.
There ya go, EMK.
#355 What I want to see is women being more submissive. I don’t want to change into a submissive woman.
@ 357 yeah I get what you are saying, didnt mean it quite like that! Lol. In fact I would say women acting like men and men acting like women is part of the problem today and you are right, it doesn’t work.
@SGT Ted – well spoken.
On another note, I just wanted to draw attention to CG’s classic exhibition of denial:
When I first posted my response to CG, a decent part of me thought “Maybe I’m making too huge of a leap here.” I half expected that I would have to eat my words…now I’m all but certain that my analysis was spot on.
Few things tell me that I’ve hit the mark too close for someone’s comfort than when he/she reacts by shouting “Nuh uh!” and sticking his/her fingers in his/her ears. If CG’s experience actually differed significantly from what I had posited, she would have easily and readily shared the details disproving my theory (after all, she’s already shown that she will eagerly share personal details as long as she thinks someone is “on her side”).
Ladies and gentlemen, dissimulation in action.
@ Emily I think it’s good to remember there are overall odds and then individual cases. Individual results may vary. Does it get harder w time? Yes. Do people still manage to find their someone at 36, 40, 45, 52, or even 70? Yes. Hope is a good thing to hang onto, along w understanding the situation red pill style and then acting *differently* than the other 36 year old single women. Lots of good advice from the guys here on that, dos and don’ts and such. I am of course a hopeless romantic so I look forward to hearing how you found him and he found you!
@Emily
For the 38 year olds, maybe encouragement to wake up and get proactive is called for…as a recognised Hail Mary, rather than keep doing what you’re doing (ooh, here’s the collection plate).
But the decent thing such women should be doing is telling the truth to the younger women. Men don’t like carousel riders for partners and don’t leave it as late as I did.
Decent men in perilous situations try to ‘save the next guy’. I see no such sense of honour, of higher self, in women. Can women not do that? Is it always about her and her interests? I’m sure the bible contains some advice.
Colorado Girl’s self-description is a nearly perfect summary of a person who pines for love and commitment to such a degree that any intelligent object of her affection will ask: does she love me, or does she obsess on the idea of being in love with me?
Almost always it’s the latter: Narcissus enraptured by her solitary reflection in the pool. In this instance, then, the man is just a mechanism: her projection is his function. He’s not a man to her and never will be. There’s no virtue in strapping on a unicorn’s crown, just because it temporarily makes a woman happy. Everyone is correct. It is extremely alarming to be the recipient of such unbalanced urgency.
This relates to Katz’s world, in that the 38 year-old who “is finally ready” and “finally knows what she wants”, while changing lanes without bothering to signal, may well project her desires on the first man who checks 70% of her OKCupid boxes, while playing along with standard-issue courtship rituals.
So “Courtship Rituals” are likely an overstatement. Really, they’re often the tired, rehearsed gestures best left to reality TV. (For Katz’ smart set, Downton Abbey.) Example:
Over the weekend I helped a friend drive two pre-teens to their mother’s house 500 miles away. The mother lives in a perfect Oklahoma suburb: think Pleasantville with more brick facades, better landscaping, MOAR JESUS, and a golf course winding through its midst. I have a horror of such places but I can see why some people enjoy them. I went out for a five mile walk on Saturday, midday, and I did not encounter a single pedestrian in 90 minutes. I find the whole idea somewhat creepy, but then I live on the same block as old-school Iowans, some Hmong, a Mexican family, some south side Chicago refugees, etc.
Anyway, the girls wanted to eat at the clubhouse so we went out, while waiting for the mother to fly in. As our meals arrived the club manager called everyone’s attention to a couple “dining” on a practice green, visible at about 50 meters. We were instructed to leave our meals in order to stand outside and clap, like golf fans I suppose (I’m in the Society to Prevent Golf) as our knight knelt to propose, Sir Lancelot style, to his golf-lifestyle-suburban princess. I was a bit cranky after driving 500 miles and blurted out, “Not in a million years.” A research impulse kicked in however, and I left my mediocre and overcooked sirloin to join the breathless throng.
Well. The blonde didn’t move for the longest time while Sir Golf-a-lot knelt and extended her ring with his left, and took her hand with his right. Whispering ensued, then some nervous laughter. Guinevere-Golf was not leaping into his arms at the prospect of a life, evidently, of cosseted suburban bliss. He persisted (maybe he promised to buy a bigger ring, offered a Range Rover instead of a Honda, who knows) and she then permitted him to rise and kiss her.
“Awwww”, “Yay”, polite golf-clapping ensued. The young women in our gallery flushed with excitement. Evidently he closed the deal, or she at least agreed to consider further her options with him so that everyone could save face. This isn’t courtship, these are people for whom reality TV is a cultural totem, and the public proposal represents a necessary (and filmed) validation. These are two lives justified through treacle.
Two points:
1. “Courtship” of this sort, while easily mocked by Katz’ clients (they’d get their rings on Madaket Beach, Nantucket), is better described as a romance-by-numbers validation of a men-chase, women-choose disequilibrium. How, exactly, is this guy going to continuously up-the-ante for the next 50 years, to keep her butterflies flying?
2. If indeed this ceremony pleased the woman, it has more to do with her desire to be celebrated singly, rather than any desire she may have for his intrinsic qualities. Because there was nothing intrinsic in mimicking The Bachelor to confirm the most important decision of her life. The whole scenario is a projection, not a union.
I wish CG well, but a woman deciding “she’s ready” while overwhelming a guy with her urgent desires can seem mighty arbitrary.
No one should ever propose to a woman in public. That must have been difficult to watch.
I’ve been in that position before, didn’t want to marry the guy, and it sucks.
Liz, it was creepy. However, it was also so stage-managed and obvious, I had no sympathy for either of them. If she didn’t know what was coming, she should have.
I’m curious as to what EMK would say about this man’s scenario?
“I am passionately disgusted with the American dating scene. I’m one of the guys who wasn’t given the time of day in high school, college, or my 20s. I have never even gotten past the first date as far as interacting with possibly interested women in person. I am very frustrated by seeing my future options as very likely not including (a) marriage in which I was raised to participate.
I wasn’t introduced into the Manosphere until I left the US to live and work in the Middle East where my options for marriage are very limited due to the majority of women where I live being Muslim or prostitutes. I don’t even want to raise a family in the Middle East anyways (the culture is not very family friendly for Christians). Now that I am on the outside looking in I am really questioning whether I even should consider getting married or not.
The real dilemma is I don’t really want to get into using women just for sex but want to be able to get sexual gratification by having sex with a woman on a regular basis. I have a strong sex drive.
I keep being told marriage will happen when the right woman comes around. At this rate I will be a 90 year old codger before the right woman just magically comes around when it is too late to enjoy everything that marriage has to offer (minus the frivorce).
If I ever start actively searching again it will probably be for a foreign bride even though they come with their own set of problems (read up on IMBRA – that’s a real gem of Feminazi legislation).
P.S. My Dad just told me of a 30 year old woman back in the US that is available. My first thought was “There is no way in hell I am going to get involved with a woman when her biological clock is a time bomb waiting to go off.” I didn’t have the heart to say the thought out loud while on the phone with my Dad.”
For the love of God don’t do it.
http://dawsonstone.com/men-should-never-marry/
#366 Yes. It’s interesting that truly traditional courting makes the act of actual asking merely one part of the process. It’s sort of non-private in that a parent (or other chaperone) would be present (btw, a good argument for chaperone being a parent isthat the parent’s blessing would already have been obtained so nothing is a surprise). But it’s all done away from public, that is to say nonfamily, scrutiny.
@bv oh dear, I do not predict happily ever after for the lukewarm couple. How sad for him, not the joyous acceptance he was hoping for I am sure!
Well. The blonde didn’t move for the longest time while Sir Golf-a-lot knelt and extended her ring with his left, and took her hand with his right. Whispering ensued, then some nervous laughter. Guinevere-Golf was not leaping into his arms at the prospect of a life, evidently, of cosseted suburban bliss. He persisted (maybe he promised to buy a bigger ring, offered a Range Rover instead of a Honda, who knows) and she then permitted him to rise and kiss her.
BV,
One thing a lot of guys don’t understand is that they are “placeholder” boyfriends until a better option comes along. I think for many women having a boyfriend is a status symbol of sorts, like owning the right purse, or shoes, or designer jeans. Only “losers” don’t have those things including a boyfriend, so many women will grab onto whatever guy is convenient for the moment off the guy tree, but in many cases the woman knows there is no chance in a million years she can see herself with the guy longer-term or married.
FWIW I was proposed to and that didn’t work out.
TL;DR don’t get married guys. There’s nothing in it for guys, or…more accurately, nothing good.
Decent men in perilous situations try to ‘save the next guy’. I see no such sense of honour, of higher self, in women.
That does seem to be true. I wonder why?
I personally am here partly to help the next fella.
One thing a lot of guys don’t understand is that they are “placeholder” boyfriends until a better option comes along.
I wonder how often that better option does come along…
“Your timeline for family/babies is an artificial construct that is yours alone”
It is not at all artificial. Women have a biological clock that stops ticking at menopause. I do not want to start having children when I’m in my peri menopause years like a lot of women do these days because it puts me and the child at high risk.
“and does not seem to take the other humans that will be involved into consideration.”
I am talking other humans into consideration. That is why I am giving my long distance guy time and space to fall in love with me and ask me to marry him, but I can’t wait forever if I want to have kids, which I do.
“Don’t have babies as a checkbox on your “self fulfillment” plan. Just don’t. ”
I am going to have babies, that is for sure. Its not a plan as such, its a deep desire and longing which I’ve had since childhood. Why should I be a ditz about it and wait until someone falls in love with me and marries me, which could be at 44 years old!
” Especially if you aren’t married. That is selfish as fuck.”
Everything humans do is selfish. Having a child without being married, especially with the kind of very privileged life I will provide for them is not one of the most selfish things I could do.
“We already have plenty of fucked up young men and women that have no fathers in their daily lives. ”
They come from dysfunctional and often poor backgrounds. My children will grow up in an entirely different manner.
‘The younger generations of women need to not be so selfish when it comes to babies.’
Sorry I disagree. I think its because we are not selfish enough that we end up 38 years old and childless. More women need to plan their lives around their fertile years, not less.
“What you don’t seem to be analyzing or examining very much is your propensity to fall hard quickly and then trying to make everything revolve around that, including other human beings. Again, that’s selfish.”
I was in love and planning a future with my likewise in love with me ex. He totally blindsided me by backing out of our future plans. Fine, I’m over it. But you are trying to convince me that the desire to marry and bear children during my fertile years, which has been the normal and natural desire of human beings since our beginning, is somehow wrong and unnatural. That’s bull and you know it.
“Go less with the hormonal rush and more with a slower, more thoughtful approach that takes the man and his long term desires and goals into consideration and not the short term infatuation overriding all else.”
I’m not 12 years old. I don’t do infatuation. I do marriage and family. I cannot mold my life around the goals of a man if his goals for family do not match mine. If there was no such thing as menopause then I could. But I have a short window in which I can have children. What is so difficult to understand?
I’m 27 and can’t wait around 5 to 10 years for whether this guy wants to have kids or not. At the same time I’m not going to force anyone into a commitment they don’t want.
Gabriel, “P.S. My Dad just told me of a 30 year old woman back in the US that is available. My first thought was “There is no way in hell I am going to get involved with a woman when her biological clock is a time bomb waiting to go off.” I didn’t have the heart to say the thought out loud while on the phone with my Dad.”
Do you want to have a family? If so then getting involved with a woman when her biological time bomb is waiting to go off may be ideal. I don’t understand this aversion to it unless you absolutely do not want kids.
But this speaks to the ambivalence about family that my generation has today. It makes it very hard for us that are not ambivalent to navigate the waters. I don’t know how to gauge whether someone wants kids, doesn’t want kids, or is two mind about it, when they themselves don’t know where they stand.
ColoradoGirl, it seems that you think a man who wants to have kids should just have kids with any woman who wants to have them. You seem to see a man as a means to an end, a means to avoid being unmarried and alone, a means to having children, etc.
I do not want to be in a relationship with a woman just for the sake of having a woman and being in a relationship. She has to be right for me and I for her, or else there is no point because there is no future.
I would like to have 4-6 kids by the time I am 40-45, but I am not going to reproduce with just any woman simply for the sake of having kids.
Also 30 is too old, I am not interested in women who are over the hill, let alone the same 30 year old women who were ignoring me when I was 20 and have since racked up a spread sheet’s worth of lovers. They gave their youth and beauty to dozens of other men, and they expect me to commit to the left-overs. THINK AGAIN.
“Also 30 is too old, I am not interested in women who are over the hill”
THANK YOU! 30 IS too old and the very reason why if I’m not at least engaged by 30, I’m going it alone. Finally someone gets the logic of my timeline.
#376 re: “Its not a plan as such, its a deep desire and longing which I’ve had since childhood.”
I know what you mean. My first wife and I agreed we wanted, desired, longed for, a dozen kids. But she changed her mind after the first one, her baby rabies temporarily cured,empowered by contraception, although we had a second child anyway. My second wife agreed we wanted, desired, longed for, a half-dozen kids. And her longing was similarly cured by our one and only child, the cure aided and abetted by contraception.
I have never changed my mind.
My meaning is: no matter how you might want to complain, you have far more reproductive choices than a man does.
Thirty is not too old to have a child or even two children, but 30 is too old for me because I want a woman who has minimal emotional baggage and it tends to get worse with age. A 30 year old woman is “too old” and “over the hill” by my standards but I am 27 and my weltanschauung is such that I have very little sympathy for women because I have observed them carefully and studied them at length and I recognize the damage they are capable of inflicting upon civilization and society.
No offense but you clearly have major emotional baggage that might take several years to sort out before you are actually ready to be in a long-term productive relationship with a man. You seem to have a view that you can just shoe-horn a man into your life and that everything will somehow be okay once you do that.
You seem to have a great many issues committing too fast, overwhelming fear of abandonment, insecurity, etc. That is not to say you’re a bad person or that you do not deserve to find a man or that you do not deserve happiness, but you really do not seem ready to enter into a relationship with a man at this point in your life. You have a lot of work to do fixing yourself.
@ 380
I am generally very suspicious of women who say they want a lot of kids, I believe that they are only saying it to rope in men whom they judge/assess as desiring to have a large family. Most women want to experience motherhood and they can do that with one or [at most] two kids. They have a kid so they can check it off their list and go to events with other moms. They do not actually have any philosophical or theological concept of what it means to bring forth new life into this world and to care for it for the sake of the new life.
A woman gets a boyfriend as a fashion accessory to avoid being left out and she gets a kid to widen her social circle and allow her to check off a box on her bucket list.
Colorado Girl:
Your apparent decision to have a child or children without a man in their lives is the height of irresponsibility, selfishness and self-centeredness. It’s a decision I cannot respect.
If you go through with this, one day you’ll have to answer to your children as to why you brought them into this world without a father’s involvement. You will undoubtedly have to rely on government for help caring for and supporting your children — again, a decision I don’t respect at all.
Bloom,
You are more deserving of respect than EMK. Have you ever considered doing what he does?
#382 re: “A woman gets a boyfriend as a fashion accessory”
Yes.
“she gets a kid to widen her social circle and allow her to check off a box on her bucket list.”
Some women, probably, but the Thirst For A Baby can be very real. My own wife, age 64, occasionally experiences a Baby Rabies Echo or something, and wonders why we didn’t have more kids. I try to gently remind her that it was entirely her decision and her fault and she’s nuts for feeling otherwise. The larger issue is that women always think their widdle fickle feelings are Important and Immutable laws by which men must live.
This tendency has been greatly exacerbated by social media. A girl’s (e.g. a 64 yr old girl) writ-in-water expressions, often contradicted by what she writted an hour ago, MUST be treated by her friends as if inscribed on stone tablets by Her own finger, or they get defriended.
“Thirty is not too old to have a child or even two children”
I know. That’s why I plan on having my first at 30 and my second around between 32-34.
“I am generally very suspicious of women who say they want a lot of kids”
So am I. I will only have a few because I want to be able to give each of them sufficient time, attention and energy as well as provide a very, very good life and education for them. I can easily do that with 2, not with 12.
30 is old, I agree. But you aren’t taking the guy into consideration. Guys want to have kids, I know I would love to, but we give pause due to the following ( there are more but these are the biggest in my opinion )
1. We want the mother of our children to want us. Not for utility purposes, like you are implying, but want him because you think said guy is the best.
2. The court system. Too many stories and experiences where mama isn’t haaaaaaapy anymore, divorces the dad and uses the kids as weapons or meal tickets. ( child support has been used many times for purchases mama wants)
You are all about some dude that’s a LDR now. Leave. What you’re doing, like most women, is playing Cinderella and waiting till your knight saves you. Stop that Disney BS, and find him yourself. Approach guys, have friends and family to set you up ( like you have been doing I believe ), be positive, and lower your standards if they are high ( like he has to be super good looking or rich ). Do those things and suddenly a metric ton of guys will come out of the woodwork.
“My meaning is: no matter how you might want to complain, you have far more reproductive choices than a man does.”
I know, am grateful and plan on fully utilizing those choices.
“You seem to have a great many issues committing too fast”
I never committed to anyone who wasn’t committed to me. Like I already said, I was in a relationship with a man who was in love with me and we had planned a future together but when push came to shove, he was ambivalent about marriage and family, as many young people are today. He can wait until he’s 40 to marry and reproduce for the first time. I can’t, and I won’t.
I am not committed to my current long distance guy. I am meeting other men on the advice of family and friends even though I really dig him. If by the end of the year our relationship has progressed into something more serious and we start talking about a future together, I’ll commit. If not, I’ll have to move on because by that time I will be close to 28 and will not have any time to waste with an ambivalent guy.
“overwhelming fear of abandonment, insecurity, etc.”
I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. Yes, I was devastated that the first man I loved and who planned a future with me bailed. Yes it took a year to get over that. Should it have taken less? What’s the appropriate amount of time to move on from a man you deeply loved and planned the rest of your life with? A week? A month?
” you really do not seem ready to enter into a relationship with a man at this point in your life. ”
I don’t know what gave you this impression.
“You have a lot of work to do fixing yourself.”
Fix what? My desire to have children before I hit peri menopause? Just see how far society is lost when this is seen as something to “fix”.
Fix the fact that you are not interested in having a marriage/family with a particular man whom you know and love, you are interested in shoe-horning a man, “Mr. Right Now” into your life and having kids by him.
It is painfully obvious that you see a man as a means to having children and that you still have major hang-ups over your last failed relationship.
I doubt you are going to listen to my advice or any of the advice given by the men here, even though it is spot on and with the best intentions. You are probably going to become a single mother after having a kid by some random guy.
And to answer your question CG. Took me 3 months to get over the girl I was going to marry. As in I bought the ring and was dumped 2 days after, while planning the proposal. So a year seems a bit much, but oh well.
“You are all about some dude that’s a LDR now. Leave. What you’re doing, like most women, is playing Cinderella and waiting till your knight saves you. Stop that Disney BS”
Its not me but the others who are Disney bsing with their “she has to be right for me” and “take the guys feelings into consideration”. And I have clearly stated that I will not wait to be saved but if I’m not married by a certain age I’m going it alone. Those who wait to be saved by a knight are the 38 year old childless women Evan Marc Katz writes for. They’ll be 40 and childless and then 45, and then menopausal with nothing to show for it because of their Cinderella complex.
“and find him yourself. Approach guys, have friends and family to set you up”
This is how I found LDR and the other men I’ve met. They didn’t come to me first, I sought them out.
” ( like you have been doing I believe )”
Yes I have.
“be positive, and lower your standards if they are high ( like he has to be super good looking or rich ).”
None of the men I’ve dated have been super good looking or richer than me.
“Do those things and suddenly a metric ton of guys will come out of the woodwork.”
Guys will come out of the woodwork alright but like I keep saying, this generation is ambivalent about marriage and family. You can live together for years on end without any clear lines being demarcated. Marriage and family are just two of many options that young people have today. Its not like it was in our grandparents time.
“Fix the fact that you are not interested in having a marriage/family with a particular man whom you know and love”
Because I don’t love any particular man right now. I am falling for a guy but if he doesn’t fall for me in equal measure AND want marriage and kids with me, there’s nothing I can do to force him.
“you are interested in shoe-horning a man, “Mr. Right Now” into your life and having kids by him.”
I’m interested in meeting a man who wants marriage and family a year from now, not 10 years from now, and building a relationship and falling in love with him. If it happens during my prime fertile years, which I hope it does, great. If not, there are other ways.
“It is painfully obvious that you see a man as a means to having children”
What is a man to a woman or a woman to man (who wants to have kids) other than a means to creating a family? I’m sorry but if all you want is an ego boost and fluffy feelings you don’t need marriage and kids for that. You can stay just as ambivalent as the rest of the 20 and 30 somethings out there today.
“and now its seen as and that you still have major hang-ups over your last failed relationship.”
I nursed my wounds for a year. Just gave him as a background story as to how young people today can have a relationship and think its going somewhere when it really isn’t.
“I doubt you are going to listen to my advice or any of the advice given by the men here, even though it is spot on and with the best intentions. ”
I didn’t see any advice I could use. All the advice is either what I’m already doing, such as being pro-active in meeting guys and keeping my options open, or its assumptions about myself or my previous relationship that was all wrong and it certainly does not address the ambivalent attitudes of young 20 and 30 something people out there in the dating scene today.
“You are probably going to become a single mother after having a kid by some random guy.”
I will go for artificial insemination and adoption, like other women in my cohort do.
Well kudos for approaching men. You have my gold star of approval ( current ebay price is at an all time high lol ). The only other options I can see are those reasons I mentioned above. Consider church for marriage minded guys is the best I can think of at the moment. I would suggest that you mention thst you despise the idea of divorce and would never do it, insist on prenups and all. Live up to those words in action, and you may be able lay those fears to bed.
@ fuzzie 384 really? Why thank you, nice of you to say. As far as do what enjoy does, do you mean give women dating advice? Or blog for a living? Or? I would love to get compensated somehow so I could spend more time writing for my blog w/o feeling guilty about putting off “paid” writing work. not that its about money but i’d rather write my blog than write blogs for others. If you know how that works I am all ears!
*emk not enjoy
People are ambiguous because marriage is outdated.
Here’s another one.
“But as the years ticked by, there was no talk of a wedding, no talk of a ring. The word “engagement” made me panicky, even as friends and family began asking about our plans for the future. Each time, I shrugged my shoulders, smiled and said we didn’t want to rush forever.
On the rare occasions Nathan was questioned, mostly by his parents who were itching to welcome their first grandchild, he said the same. You see, even though we knew we wanted to spend the rest of our lives together, we had no desire to get married. Not then, and maybe not ever.”
http://www.xojane.com/sex/dating-for-10-years-before-marriage
The ambivalency discussion with CG isn’t adding up, even though the infatuation discussion cleared some things up.
“The ambivalency discussion with CG isn’t adding up, even though the infatuation discussion cleared some things up.”
You men the discussion that’s ambivalently ambiguous, or the ambiguously ambivalent one?
#400 I can buy that a girl can fall in love with the “wrong” men, men who run away, ambiguous men, etc.
I cannot buy that “right” men are in short supply. Defining: I cannot buy that non-ambivalent men, who non-ambiguously want a wife and kids, are so difficult to scare up. But I can buy that a woman can be ambivalent as to whether a “right” man is what she really wants.
detiYour apparent decision to have a child or children without a man in their lives is the height of irresponsibility, selfishness and self-centeredness. It’s a decision I cannot respect.
If you go through with this, one day you’ll have to answer to your children as to why you brought them into this world without a father’s involvement. You will undoubtedly have to rely on government for help caring for and supporting your children — again, a decision I don’t respect at all.
I second detis response to CG. She thinks money can replace a father in a child’s life. How dumb and selfish is that?
Shirley you’re getting bored of talking to another of PJ’s sockpuppets?
She’s trolling you with a traditional “I’m intending on being a single-mom supported by welfare”…and you’re falling for it! shame on you!
At least her trolling involves admitting that da menz are learning not to marry a nutter +/- slut…which raises a smile. Another welfare mom raising another future slut/thug…meh…what difference does one more make at this point?
She’s trolling you with a traditional “I’m intending on being a single-mom supported by welfare”…and you’re falling for it! shame on you!
The thing is, I’ve known entitlement princess idiots just like CG/troll. They were serious about their unthinking, selfish desire to have babies unilaterally and calling it “family”. I have to confront one if I think I have found one. Such narcissism is to be stepped on.
And don’t call me Shirley.
@ 404 classic. I appreciate the classics
They were serious about their unthinking, selfish desire to have babies unilaterally and calling it “family”
Don’t you know that there is a fundamental human right to reproduction?
Except for guys
As a supporter of anti feminism, MRA causes AND Evan Marc Katz. I am not entirely sure what your beef is with his hussle. I have read lots and lots of his posts. He ALWAYS tells women to lower their ‘standards’ and he is always honest about their chances of finding the men they prefer. I find his advice very practical and common sensical. I have thought that his blog or his book (which I have read) suggest that being 38 and single and looking for marriage is ok. He frequently says that women need to take their husband hunting more seriously. He is also very specific about who his target audience is and that is generally NOT those lower in the social economic groups who are arguably more likely to be gold diggers, vampires and single parents. I am surprised you are not showing support to someone who is targeting women and telling them the truth about dating (namely that after you hit the wall you need to change who your aiming for and FAST) without disrespecting them. Like he says, I’m sorry that certain people are angry, but anger is a good emotion to use for change, it is motivating. How about one of you become a dating coach for women that is more to your liking? or one for men? We are all being born into this western world and indoctrinated at young ages. We soak up messages like a sponge and then when we reach adulthood we try to separate the logical from the illogical. Most people are self interested and wont change until a current style of thinking no longer serves them. You guys are angry because the feminist man shaming is not serving you and lots of other women are waking up to this reality too. It would be a much better use of your time if you grouped to together and helped to change ideology for the next generation, your children’s. Because unfortunately, it maybe too late for you own (maybe..) Then using your anger to turn bitter on someone who is providing a much needed service to women who have realised that feminism hasn’t delivered the female imperative successfully. I for one am turning my attention to counselling for young people and for men especially, mediation for family and activism. I want to help change the family court bias. Apart from hating on someone who has found a way help, wtf are you doing? (cussing out women and getting bitter doesn’t count btw) Thanks
As adults we realise the injustic bestowed upon us by our parents and society, we get angry and if we can get closure from it then we take responsibility and use that anger for good and move on. Its all a process and I hope you move past the woeh is us! stage
I was suppose to say ‘I have never seen anything in his blog or his book (which I have read) suggests that being 38 and single and looking for marriage is ok.’ thanks
Sock puppet?
As a supporter of anti feminism, MRA causes AND Evan Marc Katz. I am not entirely sure what your beef is with his hussle. I have read lots and lots of his posts. He ALWAYS tells women to lower their ‘standards’ and he is always honest about their chances of finding the men they prefer.
I spent some time reading more of his posts, and on the whole it isn’t bad stuff. There are some minute portions of “Red Pill medicine” diluted with lots and lots and lots of sweetener and sugar water. I think the reason he incurred some attacks and wrath here is because he stepped away from his primary mission of communicating and addressing women, and addressed men directly. Many men, rightfully so, are going to pounce on men trying to shame men with the “be a real man and court women properly” message. I don’t know if EMK was being authentic in that post, but on some level it comes across as the worst sort of cynical pandering. Believe me, it is really easy to tell women what they want to hear, you just have to laser in on their solipsism.
How about one of you become a dating coach for women that is more to your liking?
Why? To what end? If you want to do it profitably, you’ll have to corrupt your message away from raw truths and towards what many women want to hear. Here is the truth, and many women admit this candidly in another contexts. Women by and large do NOT want solutions, their problems solved, they want empathy. Anyways, having been part of an experiment elsewhere, I realized women simply cannot have frank and candid intersex dialogue with men. Ultimately, it becomes about their feelings and “tone” and all sorts of other trivialities.
I did not read through all the comments so I am sure there have been positive/constructive feedback that I have missed. So, I am basing my post off of the original.
To give you some stats: I am a 36 year old professional working woman who lives in Philadelphia. And while I am a big higer on the socioeconomic level of the main commenters’ examples and don’t have ‘multiple baby daddies’, I would really like to offer my perspective.
I cannot understand for the life of me why men constantly complain about constantly having to pay for dates lamenting the risk of constantly being used. It makes me question your intuition and your state of reasonableness. Of course your potential for being be used if you go after the multiple baby daddy, poorer than death, live in the hood type woman increases significantly. But oh I forgot, she’s ‘FINE’ and therefore, you will push aside common sense for the ‘big butt and a smile’.
And while I can appreciate why a beautiful woman is intoxicating (not to toot my own horn, but I tend to be well appreciated for being a good looking woman as well) and I understand our allure, you men need to dig deeper. And yes, you can or SHOULD BE able to tell after a few conversations BEFORE you start taking a woman out what caliber of woman you are dealing with. I am not saying that a poor woman is less than (and one with multiple baby daddies). Shucks, I am not one to judge. HOWEVER, past behavior tends to predict future behavior and if you listen with your head (the big one), you will have your answer.
Stop making excuses for not courting a woman the right way because you are afraid of being used. Offer for a coffee date the first time (be creative). Lord knows we women have a bunch of fears that we have to deal with and we also have a higher chance of being used because we tend to be victims to our emotions. I would encourage you to stop looking at just the fact that she is a hot piece of ass.
You also said, “it’s that they’re gunning way out of their league and trying to get a very small pool of highly desirable Men to wife them up…” WHAT PART OF PHILLY do you live in as this is extremely false. Based on the relationships I have seen constantly and my friends have seen, most men and women tend to be equally yoked either in the looks department or financially. And, have you seen the statistics on black women vs. black men? I love black men but let’s face it, black women (generally speaking) are doing better than you financially. This is not to diss my beautiful brothers but c’mon, most women that I know make way more money than their husbands and boyfriends. The times have changed my brother.
You also gave an example about the woman who wouldn’t marry the well to do brother. For every example you give, I can give you another counter example. Are you suggesting that this is the norm? Last time I checked, it’s the women in general who were sweating the commitments. Maybe the brother has a drug problem. Maybe he has issues that you don’t know of. Of course there are women who are damaged and hurt and do all manners of craziness. But ANYONE damaged and hurt will do all manners of craziness and shouldn’t be in the running for you to date anyway.
should be ‘bit higher’ on the socioeconomic….
Forgive my typos.
And one more thing, it’s funny that men aren’t encouraged to lower their standards. May I ask, what standards should said women lower? In fact, based on the men I have seen my black friends date, the standards are pretty low as is because of the market (again, at least in Philly) because trust me, successful, non multiple baby mama, good looking black men (especially over 30) aren’t just chillin on the corner. Even more interesting is that no one encourages white women(or women of other races) to lower their standards.I bet you can guess WHY that is?
#407 I could be wrong, hypothetically, except, of course, I’m not. Katz never means anything in terms of women lowering their standards onanything except “chemistry”. He urges that they should “settle” for nice healthy wealthy men who don’t generate tingles. Almost, almost I say, he is encouraging 38 yr old business women to envision themselves as starving 21 yr olds looking for a sugardaddy.
#407 re: lane changing.
If you think Katz is being sincere to a post-Wall long-past-alpha-sex woman about her chances of landing a better beta for bux and such, then I have a highway to sell you. He basically tells rich women what they *want* to hear. They *want* to hear that their beta bux scheme is going to work out. They *want* to be told that all they have to do is put their blinker on and slow down a little and some very nice man in a Mercedes will show up to block traffic and let her pull over.
Stacy:
I’ll leave most of your points for Obsidian to deal with. But let me say this:
1. Current society and culture has beaten down most men to the point that they have no idea how to comport themselves in intersexual relationships. If they are supplicating and kind to women, they get used. If they attempt dominance and showing a confident frame, they get accused of sexual harassment. They are fucked no matter what they do. It has less to do with intuition and ability to read situations and much more to do with shifting cultural and societal norms which have created enormous amounts of confusion in most men.
2. Why do you get to decide what “the right way” is for “courting” a woman? And what you’re talking about is not really “courting”. It’s traditional 1970s to 1990s style formal dating, where he’s gunning for sex and she’s gunning for commitment (maybe, if he’s hawt and rich enough). He’s just going to have to jump through her hoops while she expects to sit back and rate his performance. Pass.
3. Men are constantly told to lower their standards. The running meme for most men in the world is “Man up and marry the sluts”. Most men are being told that they’ll have to settle for a woman with many sex partners preceding him, who doesn’t love him or care about him, and just wants his monetary contributions to pay the bills.
4. Women could lower their standards by not expecting the world and by maybe doing some things for him instead of him carrying the relationship load.
@Sgt Ted
That was a classic. I preferred ‘Top Secret’ to ‘Airplane’ but both had their moments.
We have another two candidates, I see.
“I am not entirely sure what your beef is with his hussle”
Pretty sure that you just identified why, right there.
Maybe I’m being unfair, but it’s unlikely that the Katz-Lady-Whisperer is telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Not if he’s looking to make any money out of them. Maybe he’s doing his best, but that doesn’t mean it’s a noble quest to be admired by the proposed prey population (men) of the women seeking seed, wallet and a socially acceptable route to them both.
Deti,
Thanks for your response and I am really enjoying this conversation! First off, you only get used if you put yourself in a position to get used. No one can use you without your consent. The problem is, a lot of men see the red flags and ignore it because of a hard penis, etc. Women tend to ignore a lot of red flags also which is why they oftentimes stay in bad relationships.
But please tell me, how can you possibly get used starting off with ‘light’ dates (coffee/going for a walk/light lunch. Etc.)? And I am hoping that I am not the exception to the rule but I can tell after ONE date if the man is worth an investment of my time at the bare minimum. It sure as hell should not take you more than 2 dates to assess this if you think with your head.
Let me address societal and cultural norms. While I do admit that there are a lot of contradictory messages out there as far as expectations for BOTH men and women, it still does not negate the fact that the vast majority of women would LIKE to be dated/courted. It is NOT old fashioned and whether you think it fair or unfair, it is fact.
If you see a woman not reciprocating in a short and reasonable amount of time, you see the red flag and you leave! If you stay, you get used. A woman who cares about you will CARE and be considerate of your financial situation. The wrong woman won’t – simple. And if you are still confused, have a conversation. But, I guarantee you, a woman will not respect you most times if you are not willing to court her in the beginning and yes, that does include a financial investment but it should be extremely small and if something so small is cutting into your wallet that severely where you see it as being used, then you shouldn’t be dating IMO.
You said, ‘if they attempt dominance and showing a confident frame, they get accused of sexual harassment.’ Ummm..no….most men I know of whether in real life or on tv that were accused of sexual harassment, the relationship went way beyond the man just being confident. Confidence is attractive for damn near all women. Now dominance? I am not sure what you mean exactly since the word can be used for all sorts of situations – appropriate and inappropriate.
By the way, kind and good men rarely get used. Kind and good men without balls and a backbone are the ones who tend to get used by some women who can sense that and unfortunately take advantage of this but that goes for women too. If you pick your dating companion wisely, you should not have to worry about that because again, you will leave when you see the big red giant flag. No Bueno.
And, men are not constantly told to lower their standards – women are. I ask you to just google ‘lower your standards’ and you will see 95% of articles encouraging women to do so – not a coincidence. The reason is that men can AFFORD to keep their standards because of the disproportionate ratio of men to women (at least in the black community) and the fact that more black women are graduating from college, making more money than black men generally speaking and there is an incredible disparity within. Again, there is nothing wrong with making less money but I hope you get my point. Also, women have much more pressure when it comes to ageism, how they need to keep their bodies etc. That’s why you can find a nerdy and unattractive fat guy with a hot chick but even though Whoopi Goldberg is rich, you don’t see men lining up to date her. Oh, and men have the nerve to talk about sexual partners when they tend to be the kings of sleeping around and do not get ‘slut shamed’ for it.
If a woman’s sexual history is important to you, then there are many ‘sanctified’ non slut women. My girlfriend is 38 years old and just got married and she was a virgin. But trying to find a man that doesn’t have a harem of past sexual partners (especially if he is over 30) is like finding a needle in a haystack. Double standard.
Again, I don’t tend to meet many of these women who are expecting the world since in my modest travels (and I have visited most black dominant cities) and especially in Philadelphia, most black women I see with black men did not get the top of the icing cake if you go based on attraction and finances.
Best,
Stacy
Stacy:
I can tell that you and I see things very differently, based on our different genders, backgrounds and perspectives. That said, I’ll do my best here.
Yes, men do get used, and usually only if they put themselves in a position to get used. The issue is that most women, backed by the dominant culture, are extremely adept at maneuvering men into such positions and making it appear as if they ARE NOT being used; as if the maneuvering is in his best interest. Prime example is marriage and fatherhood. This is simply the feminine imperative at work, really. The woman gets what she wants, and the culture and everything around him tell him that this is “right” and “good” and “necessary”.
As for confidence and dominance being attractive, yes, but it all depends on the perception of the woman observing it. (Following Morpheus’ wisdom, I’m going to get away from using the loaded and ambiguous word “attractive”, and replace it with “Sexually Desirable”.) If she doesn’t find him sexually desirable, nothing he is or does will change it. If she does find him sexually desirable, he has a lot – a LOT – of leeway to operate within that.
As for sex harassment, I’ve seen men accused of sex harassment merely for looking at a woman, or talking to her, or being in the same room with her. I’ve dealt with women who have the most hair-trigger sensitivity to this issue.
So, most men are fucked no matter what they do.
Regarding lowering standards – sorry. I don’t see women being told to accept less than what they want. I see men all over the place being told to “man up and marry the sluts”. I think that you and I simply don’t see this issue the same way, and that’s fine.
You claim that you see women being told to lower their standards – that may be true of black women, but it is not true of white women, or most women in the larger ambient culture, at all. I do not at all see women being told to lower their standards for what they will accept from men in their lives, or men as romantic and sexual partners. I do not see this at all, anywhere – not in media, not on blogs, not in churches, not in the workplace, not anywhere.
You offer an example of one woman being married as a virgin and claim there are many “sanctified” non slut women. Again, I think this is a perception issue. This is not my experience at all.
Most women I’ve ever known, regardless of age, station, race, socioeconomic status, occupation, religion, and whatever demographic you want to use, have had at least some sexual experience by the time they reach age 22 or 23. This is something I’ve found to be true of women across the board – sex with sexually desirable men is available and on tap anytime they want it, and they take advantage of it.
Yes, there are women here and there who don’t partake in that culture. There are pockets of virtue here and there. Just as there are a few men who are avoiding the toxic effects of hookup and the messed up SMP mainly by either being so sexually desirable they can get whatever woman they want; or by dropping out entirely. That does not mean that there are many, many virtuous women who are available for virtuous men for relationships, sexu and marriage.
So, I think we are coming from this from very different perspectives and subcultures. Your experience is not mine, at all.
Okay, so on some things I guess we can say we will agree to disagree.:) But, I can’t help but follow up to some of your statements.
Marriage and fatherhood benefits men more than it benefits women. Women have to go through pregnancies physically. Women are usually the primary caregivers. Statistically, married men live longer than unmarried men. Women are the ones who still primarily take care of the household chores. The only aspect that men give ‘up’ through marriage is their ‘freedom’ to have sex with other people (even though we know they don’t always give that up as well). So be grateful that you are maneuvred towards this because it will benefit you. However, you don’ t have to do what you don’t want to do. And, if you want a ‘virtuous’ woman, then she will most likely want to marry. I find it sad that you think it is something you are manipulated into. There are enough women out there who don’t want to get married but most ‘good girls’ will. So since you want a good girl, then of course you have to give up your freedom to sex other people for that virtue. And actually, I find that this is a good thing. Marriage also makes communities stronger.
You said, “I’ve dealt with women who have the most hair-trigger sensitivity to this issue.” Solution? Stop dealing with women who have the most hair-trigger sensitivity to these issues.
As far as the one example I offered you of my girlfriend (virgin)…while I would not be deceptive by telling you I know a bunch of women who are virgins, I can with confidence tell you I know tons of women who are sexually conservative, especially when compared to most men that I know. And, a woman who has had sex before you doesn’t mean she is damaged or ruined. Do you hold yourself to the same standard? And by the way, you are right as far as how easy it is for women to have sex. However, women are naturally designed to desire relationship first and yes, sometimes the sex happens to come with it (and for men, it’s the other way around).
I agree with you that black women more than white tend to have the lowering of standards issue. However, just like you don’t want to lower your standards about what you consider to be a woman’s virtue, why should a woman feel the need to lower her standards? What’s wrong with wanting what you want? I guarantee that reality will set in at some point in time if what you want is unobtainable. In fact, most women I have convos with desire a handsome, loyal man that is gainfully employed. Not too bad…And, how about you find someone who sees you as the standard instead of her thinking she lowered it for you?
And you are right, I am black and from the Caribbean so maybe I am coming from a different cultural angle but people’s natures tend to be roughly the same no matter where you are.
“And, a woman who has had sex before you doesn’t mean she is damaged or ruined.”
Analysis of the divorce rates show that N=0 or N=1 (with the 1 being the future husband) give the best chance for the marriage. (Social Pathologists’s website). As N rises so does the liklihood of divorce. We’re talking statistically here, not on the individual basis, but the stats suggest that something is indeed being damaged (usually suggested to be her ability to bond to hubby being degraded by other previous sexual partners).
“Do you hold yourself to the same standard?”
Aha the old “it’s not fayur tantrum *stamps feet*” so beloved of women and most especially feminists.
Well, the sexes are different and so, so should the standards be. The N vs bonding effect was shown in men to iirc, but much less dramatic effect on bonding.
It’s not double standards, it’s seperate standards for seperate populations with different evolved behaviours.
Feel free to apply whatever standards you wish to men (I don’t care at all, I doubt any man will), just don’t be surprised if men apply their own standards to the women they consider for LTR (and marriage). Men are deeply wired to dislikeN in women for LTR. The stats just confirm that there seems to be a reason for it; that it’s right for men to be concerned by a woman’s N.
Life isn’t ‘fayur’ deal with it.
So be grateful that you are maneuvred towards this because it will benefit you.
LOL. No offense, but this a good example of a statement that would be a massive red flag, thinking that you need to manipulate me “for my own good”. This is symptomatic of the nonsense you see on sitcoms with the bumbling buffoon husbands who need to be directed and led by their all knowing wives.
Morpheus,
I was being sarcastic. I don’t believe women manipulate men into marriage nor should she. What I am saying is that statistically marriage is a great benefit assuming the two people getting married both want the union. If a woman you deal with wants marriage and you don’t, then deal with women who don’t believe in the union. See? Problem solved.:)
Funny how you guys want a woman without previous sexual partners (which is certainly fair if that is your desire), but also don’t desire to be sexually faithful – which essentially is what marriage promotes.
My comment over at EMK…let’s see if he posts it
“Amen. There has been a ridiculous discussion going on at a Men’s Rights Activist blog about my courtship post – nearly 1000 comments telling me that my 35-55 year old women are overvaluing themselves for insisting on displays of courtship. Quite the contrary.”
Evan, if you read these comments closely, you’ll see probably 10 different operating definitions of “courtship”. It still isn’t clear to me exactly what the hell we are talking about with “courtship”. I think for you, you used the example of paying for dinner. In this day and age, when women make their own money, there is no need to pay for their dinner. There are some other things that I see as perfectly fine for the guy to do such as lead and plan the date. So for clarity, what are your top 5-10 specific items that are “displays of courtship”.
Regarding “value”, you are making the mistake of conflating sexual/mating market value with value as a human being. I personally would never suggest that a woman has lesser value as a human being because she is older and overweight. But if you can say with a straight face that 55-year old overweight woman has the same market value strictly in terms of mating as a 25-year old Sports Illustrated model, then I want some of that to smoke as well.
Anyways, I have no issue whatsoever in anyone telling women whatever they want with respect to what they are entitled. More power to it. Have at it, and accept the consequences of whatever strategies you employ, male or female. I think in this post though, you deviated from your bread and butter of advising women, and stepped into the fray of telling men what they OUGHT to do. Many men, rightfully so, are going to push back hard on any message or messenger that tries to shame or cajole them into “being a real man”, “courting a women properly”, especially if quite frankly it is unnecessary to achieving their personal objectives.
@Spawny Get
Tsk, tsk.
Noone is saying that men and women are different. However, men become JUST AS DAMAGED with multiple sexual partners. Having a bunch of sexual partners is not good for ANYONE – emotionally/spiritually, etc. Stop hiding behinid the ‘I can do it because I am a man’.
You said, ‘something is damaged. the stats suggest that something is indeed being damaged (usually suggested to be her ability to bond to hubby being degraded by other previous sexual partners…” Stop making things up please.lol This is your OWN philosophy based on your own biases. So you are saying that divorce rates are tied to how many sexual partners the WOMAN had before she was married? Funny thing is, MOST divorces end because someone (USUALLY the man) cheats. Most others end because of financial issuers and then there are the outliers. Stop making up your own facts to justify your biases. Men need to also respect their bodies enough to stop spreading their seeds to every Shirley, Sherry, and Jane because it takes a toll on your respect and your manhood. The same standard should also apply to women.
Stacy,
Just curious, I see you are a recent commenter with 6 comments. How did you arrive at JFG, from the EMK site?
@ Spawny Get
No one is saying that men and women ‘AREN’T’ different. Correction.
@Morpheus,
I saw this link from a blog post online while reading a response from Evan’s site and just clicked. I was not going to respond since this seems to be a man’s world in here but the temptation overcame me.
Stacy,
Marriage and fatherhood benefits men more than it benefits women.
Bullshit. But feel free to waster your time building that case.
So be grateful that you are [manipulated] towards this because it will benefit you.
Dont you think that’s suspicious.
I find it sad that you think it is something you are manipulated into.
You find it sad that you’re manipulating into the issue, or do you find it sad that I think that you’re doing it? Guess you’ll be happier if Im grateful for your manipulation, and happier if I never realize? All this, because of my own good. And you take all that work when at the end marriage is a rough deal for you, and women, because of pregnancy, and because women would never push to have a baby.
There are enough women out there who don’t want to get married but most ‘good girls’ will.
So, “enough” women out there are not good girls – thanks.
So since you want a good girl, then of course you have to give up your freedom to sex other people for that virtue. And actually, I find that this is a good thing. Marriage also makes communities stronger.
Giving up your freedom to sex makes communities stronger. Flawless logic.
By now you pointed twice that sexual freedom is bad – makes communities weak, and makes up for bad girls.
But then you make the complete 180 shift countercase, because:
a woman who has had sex before you doesn’t mean she is damaged or ruined.
Oh really, tell me more.
Do you hold yourself to the same standard?
Judging by your own standard, shouldnt this be a bad thing?
black women more than white tend to have the lowering of standards issue.
And now black women are even worse. Those bad black genes. Jeez. So sex is bad again? or where were we?
why should a woman feel the need to lower her standards?
Now we’re talking about… Stacy what are you doing? who’s pressuring women so they “lower” their standards? oh my.
When Im the sole leader of the world I’ll put an end to advocacy. This stream of bullshit is the enemy.
You are welcome to comment, I was just curious how you found the place.
#423 re: quoting “So be grateful that you are maneuvred towards this because it will benefit you.”
Lol indeed. “and if you swallow, it has proteins and vitamins and stuff”
There are enough women out there who don’t want to get married but most ‘good girls’ will.
Good girls: girls who want to sacrifice themselves by getting a rough marriage deal for the benefit of men.
Cant make this shit up.
426
The stats say different.
Whatever PJ. Don’t care about your lies, don’t care about your feelings. Neither does reality. I’m just putting the word out to the guys. What effect that has on you is no concern of mine.
Yohami, I’ll bite.:)
So tell me oh wise one, what are the benefits of marriage to women? I’ll wait. And if you read my other response, I clearly said I was being sarcastic using the word ‘manipulate’. First off, if a man is manipulated into anything without seeing any benefits, he’s pretty weak, won’t ya say? Trust me, the men who get married usually see the perceived benefits of the institution. A marriage is basically a contract saying that you will be with each other for better or worse yada yada yada. You pledge yourselves to each other sexually yada yada yada. From where I stand, it is MUCH better than the non-committal shyt we have now. But what’s great is, if you don’t want marriage, there is also a market for you so back to my main point, you should not be manipulated into doing what you don’t want to do. Stop blaming women and take responsibility for your weakness.
And, I happen to think there are many ‘good girls’ out there. I just happen to not define a woman based on whether she is or isn’t a virgin (as the previous commenter suggested he wanted). It’s great to want a virgin but please let her know upfront that you have no desire to marry her but you just want to take her virginity.:) Who’s really delusional here?
And yes, giving up the freedom to have sex with whomever you choose and to spread your seed (cause you know, women can get pregnant) to whomever you wish weakens communities. It reduces diseases and children in a two parent home fare better – fact! And, please stop putting words in my mouth. I never said sexual freedom is bad. Marriage IF the two people want it and have good intentions is a BETTER bet than sleeping around and possibly having children all over the place with no stability. How in the world can you argue with that?
And when I talked about the black women thing (and by the way, I AM A BLACK WOMAN), I was referring to the other commenter who said that black women more than white are told to lower their standards (which I agreed with).
Morpheus 425:
EMK published your comment was published, and he wrote a lengthy response to it.
For reasons I don’t understand, I cannot comment on EMK’s blog. I’d respond to his comment as follows:
EMK, your claims about J4G men are full of strawmen and false dichotomies. No one is saying women over 30 are worthless or that women should not expect something from men.
First, J4G is not a “men’s rights” blog. We are not MRAs.
Second, the main issue with your advice to men is that it doesn’t work. We’ve tried chivalry and picking up the check. It doesn’t work.
Third: Folks like you always omit in the realm of relationship advice the most important things, which are (1): Showing men and teaching them basic male-female intersexual dynamics; and (2) How to be more sexually desirable to women.
You say confidence is important for men; but you don’t show them HOW to be more confident. That is where you fail.
deti,
There is a delay in the comments showing up as he has to approve them. I do intend to respond, but I want to respond in a way that maximizes the chance he will actually post the response.
Fill your boots. 60% less risk of divorce within five years if she’s a virgin bride.
http://socialpathology.blogspot.it/2010_09_21_archive.html
#440 My first marriage lasted ten years, so that’s almost a supporting data point.
Stacy:
Marriage and fatherhood DO NOT benefit men more than women. Marriage limits a man’s sexual options. Fatherhood is frightfully expensive. Marriage and fatherhood are enormous burdens and responsibilities – which, I might add, men are willing to take on for the prime benefit of regular sexual access to a wife. For lots of reasons, many many men are deprived of that benefit or told that they have to continue “earning” the right to have sex with a wife. So no, marriage and fatherhood do not benefit men more than they benefit women. You’re simply wrong about that.
There’s nothing wrong with a woman wanting what she wants. There’s nothing wrong with a man wanting what he wants. The difference between men and women in this respect is that men are far, far more realistic than women are about the correlations between what they WANT and what they CAN GET.
Men cannot always refuse to deal with women who have hair trigger sensitivities about “sex harassment”. Sometimes men have to work with or near or around such women.
So now we’re going from “virgins” to “sexually conservative”. What exactly does that mean? And sexual promiscuity damages women far more than it damages men. See Spawny’s reference to the Teachman study which Social Pathologist has outlined.
Women are NOT naturally designed to want relationships before sex. If that is the case, then why are women so eager to give up sex to the Hawt man? And why do they do this over and over and over again? If it really is the case that women want relationships first, then they should be having flings and ONSs with betas who will give them relationships. Any takers? Stacy, you willing to have sex with the not-so-sexually desirable man over there so he’ll give you a relationship in return? Yeah, I didn’t think so.
Stacy,
Yohami, I’ll bite.:)
That’s what you said last night.
So tell me oh wise one, what are the benefits of marriage to women?
If there are none, then you can tell all the girls to stop pushing for it and stop telling men to “man up” or
if a man is manipulated into anything without seeing any benefits, he’s pretty weak, won’t ya say?
“stop being weak” or any other tired manipulation trick. Just stop, marriage is a rough deal for women and it was designed to benefit men. All those poor girls are all being deluded into manipulating alpha men into marriages for the benefit of the alpha men and the doom of all women. This has to stop. So stop.
the men who get married usually see the perceived benefits of the institution.
No really, you can stop selling now.
A marriage is basically a contract saying that
The woman owns the man’s balls and money and doesnt have to give anything in return, and can end the contract at any point for cash and prizes.
From where I stand, it is MUCH better than the non-committal shyt we have now.
Because from where “you stand” the contract benefits yo… wait, no, it’s a rough deal for you that benefits men a great deal more, so stop, for your own good.
you should not be manipulated into doing what you don’t want to do
Finally on agreement.
Stop blaming women and take responsibility for your weakness.
… except you keep on manipulating.
It’s great to want a virgin but please let her know upfront that you have no desire to marry her but you just want to take her virginity.:)
The easier way to have sex with a virgin, or with any girl for that matter, is to tell her that you’re not looking for anything serious and that you’re in it for the fun. True story.
Who’s really delusional here?
You.
giving up the freedom to have sex with whomever you choose and to spread your seed (cause you know, women can get pregnant) to whomever you wish weakens communities.
So giving up the sexual freedom – weakens communities now? Dont worry, I know you meant the opposite.
You’re arguing in a fine like trying to slut shame promiscuous girls, while at the same time defending the right of a woman to have a good fun fuck when she wants it. It’s a blurry line though. Because it’s not there.
please stop putting words in my mouth.
That was not my word in your mouth.
I never said sexual freedom is bad.
You just did.
Marriage IF the two people want it and have good intentions is a BETTER bet than sleeping around and possibly having children all over the place with no stability. How in the world can you argue with that?
The argument started when you said that marriage was better for men, and that men should be thankful for being manipulated into it. Except if a man can be manipulated into it he’s weak. Therefore marriage is for weak men. Except it makes communities weak. Or was it stronger?. Oh Stacy.
I AM A BLACK WOMAN
Cheers.
#438 As far as I can tell EMK doesn’t enjoy interacting with men. DrJ does, you can tell, although he’s still in the “oh, you guys!” stage here. EMK’s reply so far has been that we’re a bunch of bitter old men who can’t get laid yadda yadda. Jenna has the same content, but cattier tone. sandra explictly contended that lower value women have to be treated *exactly* as if they had the same value as higher value women, as a law, or else life would be too unfair to go on.
I am a big higer on the socioeconomic level of the main commenters’ examples and don’t have ‘multiple baby daddies’
Low bar this is.
Here’s the thing with EMK and Dr. J and everyone else.
I think we need to focus on two things:
1. Women’s unreasonable demands of men and abuse of the current system; and.
2. Men’s lack of sexual desirability to women.
We need to focus a lot, lot, LOT more on 2 than on 1. Let the women continue with their “where have all the good men gone” screeds and complaints.
Let women comment here; but let no man accept anything they say as advice. Let no man act upon it.
Men should just work on becoming more sexually desirable. The sole metric for any man’s dealing with a woman should be only this:
“Does this woman want to have sex with me?”
If the answer is “no”, then he should walk on. NEXT. Full stop. End of discussion.
#443 and now Fusee has chimed in to say that no high quality woman ever is down for casual sex, and even when she is (!) it wouldn’t be with the kind of high quality man you ought to be. So, she advises, in a kind of inverse Groucho club membership paradox, don’t be the kind of man who gets to be a member of many women’s sexual clubs,because then you ought not to like yourself.
I could write these responses as parodies,and nobody would believe them.
So tell me oh wise one, what are the benefits of marriage to women?
A fine compliment to me you make
Sperm, legitamcy, labor and money receives she does
Here’s the thing with EMK and Dr. J
1. Women’s unreasonable demands of men and abuse of the current system; and.
2. Men’s lack of sexual desirability to women
Continually ignore these issues they do.
The room is small and the elephant is large.
Deti at 445,
“Men’s lack of sexual desirability in women.”
In all honesty, I don’t know how this can be addressed. Please reconsider the Oct 2009 Ok Trends story about how women percieve 80% of men t be below average in appearance. I don’t know what set us back all that far, that is insurmountable. Game can help a little but, only a little.
Your advice to take a walk if she shows no interest is sound. We’re no playing for clamshells here. However, men should bout good shoes.
Jf12:
The best part of Fusee’s response at EMK’s blog is that she out and out admits the AFBB strategy.
She says: “High quality women will probably continue to have casual sex in their twenties and in between relationships, but will only consider for relationships men who treat them seriously. By refusing courtship men limit themselves to women who would not want anything else with them anyway (which is pretty much only younger bright women, so they would only be available to me younger than 35 or so) or women of way lower “market value” than themselves.”
There could be no clearer admission of the primacy of female sexual strategies, and women saying “you men just have to SUCK IT UP”.
There could be no clearer admission of “we’re gonna chase our alpha fux, and then when we want relationships, go for beta bux.”
I wonder if She Who Shall Not Be Named will still deny AFBB as the anecdata continues to roll in from all quarters.
EMK comment I left, I can imagine some brain gaskets exploding, this could be fun if EMK lets them through
For me courtship is the stage between first contact and declaration of exclusivity.
This statement says nothing about what behaviors and actions are expected of men to constitute “courtship”. Do you expect a man to pay for 100% of all dates in this time period?
If like Tom10 you are satisfied with the kind of women you can have casual sex with, and/or if you are not interested in a relationship, then do not court women. Easy. The absence of courtship is a strong message that you’re indeed not interested in anything serious,
Exactly right, which is why I always counsel/advise men to keep it casual in beginning stages. It is a lot easier to flip a casual arrangement into a serious relationship, then start off with the heavy “courting” behavior and try to flip it casual. In fact, I’d say the latter is pretty damn near impossible. FWIW, my wife and I started out as casually dating and it eventually turned into a serious relationship when I realized she was the type of woman that I was willing to sacrifice multiple casual arrangements for.
High-quality women will probably continue to have casual sex in their twenties and in between relationships, but will only consider for relationships men who treat them seriously.
I am very glad you made this statement. First let me ask you (and any others here) a pointed question. You keep using the term “high-quality” woman. First, tell me the top 5 attributes of a quality woman. Better yet, tell me what you think they are from a male POV. Second, if you use that term, then the opposite must exist. There is no dark without light. So if “high-quality” women exist, there are “low-quality women”. What attributes do you think they have?
To your casual sex comment, there is another woman blogger on sex and dating who steadfastly maintains that 80-90% of women are ONLY interested in having sex inside committed relationships, and only 10-20% of women engage in casual sex outside relationships. My view is that is total hogwash/nonsense so I am glad you were able to support/confirm my view. You mention that women will have sex “in between relationships”. I agree, and one thing many guys are interested in is figuring out how to be that “in between guy” who gets the sex without having to bother with the courtship stuff. What traits and attributes do you think are shared by the “in between guys”, and what would you look for in an “in between guy”. Thanks.
#450 should I feel guilty for enjoying this so much? I’m killing myself suppressing laughter at the predictability, and, therefore I presume, manipulability of those bluepill comments. As Morpheus mentioned, one could make their heads explode just by speaking certain truths honestly.
And yet I thought like that mere months ago.
EMK:
Are you aware that Fusee says “high quality” women like casual sex and regularly engage in it during their 20s?
Does a “high quality” woman engage in casual sex, in your estimation?
If so, what sort of men does a “high quality” woman select for casual sex? For “relationships”?
What triggers a “change” from a “high quality” woman’s pursuit of casual sex to relationships?
Do you agree with your commenter Fusee that “high quality” women change strategies from seeking casual sex to a strategy seeking a relationship? If so, what characterizes that change? And are you aware of certain allies of yours who claim that there is NO SUCH THING as a woman who changes strategies in the fashion that Fusee has admitted?
rolf.
Deti at 453,
It would seem that Fusee’s concept of a “high quality woman” would expand or contract to always include her. I am beginning to harbor suspicions about women that self-define as “high quality”.
Come to think of it, if Fusee considers herself “high quality”, I shudder at what she would consider low quality.
Fusee say she did,
long-lasting relationships are formed between compatible/comparable partners whereas casual sex being based on “high chemistry”
Contact tingles — exothermic reaction it does create.
Societal entropy increase it will.
Don’t forget that we confident women know your default goal is *just sex*
I always was looking for a relationship and marriage. Perhaps the non-confident and modest women were the place to look…
Though I would have needed a time machine to make that happen…
Where might this one fall on the qualidy scale? Pure class
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/08/14/the-number-one-sign-a-girl-is-a-raging-slut/
Any time some slick like emk wants to define “real men” I am tempted to get in the defining game. I’d probably hurt his feelings. Again
Not sure if this one will pass through:
Morpheus:
Look, sweetheart, could you stop using this legendarily excellent science-fiction classic to promote your delusional “red pill” (a term I use very loosely) bullshit?
Oh, for sure, no prob, especially since you asked so nicely…Ummm. NO.
Seeing such a great, great, great work of science-fiction becoming associated with all this “men’s right/ red pill dating!” horseshit nonsense offends me as a fan of science-fiction.
Well, I guess you’ll have to find a way to get over it.
Honeybear, you and Morpheus don’t even have anything in common with each other, which is why I’m left scratching my head as to why you thought it would be an appropriate username to use here.
Well, I guess I’ll leave you scratching your head.
The way in which MRAs use the term “red pill” is a huge misnomer, to say the least.
Seriously? Thanks for clueing me in. I’ll get right on correcting that for you.
Morpheus gave Neo the red pill to wake him up to the actual reality of the situation he was in. I don’t see what the MRA community or “red pill dating advice” has to do with the actual reality of sex and dating
You wouldn’t get it, and are not ready to be unplugged if ever.
Wake up, think for yourself, and stop being so gullible.
Honey, I’m the guy that hands out the red pills. Nobody does thinking for me.
Choose a different username, sugarcakes. If you’re going to shit your delusional personal ideas about sex all over a famous movie, couldn’t you have chosen a shittier movie to appropriate? If you truly feel compelled to appropriate an epically great work of science fiction, couldn’t you at least make an effort to UNDERSTAND said work of science fiction?
LOL. My suggestion to you would be to not get so worked up over what some random dude chooses as a moniker on the Internet.
The question is asked,
“how much power they have to play in the market.”
EMK answers,
Your power stems from your confidence. Not your looks or age or money… So, to me, it doesn’t matter what the woman’s like: she needs to carry herself with the confidence of a high-value woman
This explains all. The modern high self-esteem woman are confident and they therefore have the power. Who knew?
This explains all. The modern high self-esteem woman are confident and they therefore have the power. Who knew?
(Singing)….I believe I can fly…….now where is the nearest cliff to test this, I believe it therefore it must be true.
Your power stems from your confidence. Not your looks or age or money…
Is he saying women’s source of power is the same as men, regardless of evidence of the contrary? Rhetorical question.
Women are attracted to confidence, power. Men are attracted to boobs and vulnerability.
A dating coach telling women that their power stems from confidence makes me suspect he’s trying to keep his market captive and unable to get what they want.
I suppose EMK believes he is doing unattractive beta bux guys some service by attempting to get these older women to hold their noses and settle for nice kind wealthy men.
So we now have some inkling as to what a “quality woman” has: confidence.
(From Novaseeker’s comment on the other thread)
See here: http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/772391-when-looking-for-a-life-partner-my-advice-to-women
Sheryl Sandberg
“When looking for a life partner, my advice to women is date all of them: the bad boys, the cool boys, the commitment-phobic boys, the crazy boys. But do not marry them. The things that make the bad boys sexy do not make them good husbands. When it comes time to settle down, find someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home. These men exist and, trust me, over time, nothing is sexier.”
—
Okay, so their quarry is
“Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home.”…and is (I presume) earning markedly more than the nightmare, pushy, bitchy, feminist tripe swallowing woman herself? And finds her attractive?
And us menz complain about having to seek out unicorns? Without a loudly ticking egg-alarm. We got it easy in comparison, guys.
—
Ladies, you don’t understand men AT ALL. How about casually asking a few men around you how attractive Sheryl is to them as a wife. Do you seriously think that she’s considered a hotty by anyone except a gold-digging himbo? Get a grip.
Smart is probably an asset as long as you aren’t obnoxious at showing it off at every single opportunity in a competitive, ball-busting manner. IQ distributions say that your quarry is likely smarter than you anyway (more men than women at the extremes of the IQ distributions). Occasionally surprise him in a charming, non-confrontational way with how smart you are. He might well find that attractive. Having to continually slap down a bratty, obnoxious smart-arse (but not as smart as she thinks) little sister character is NOT attractive to men.
opinionated HELL NO. Knowledgeable and able to hold up her end of an occasional interesting conversation (not battle) where point scoring is not performed…maybe. Not near the top of most men’s list of attractive features. Men don’t want to come home to ball-busting women who’ll argue about anything and everything with the intent of winning even when she’s in the wrong. He wants a woman that is demonstrably on his side not a competitive, pushy, contrary, opinionated bitch.
ambitious No, and anyway many of you women are actually looking to transition to a child bearing life aren’t you? May not want to drop out of the rat race completely, but do want to start claiming to your careerist buddettes that your babies are the true symbols of success (Having it all). Which means the man’s career is how your ambition will be continued, so really you’re telling the guy that you’re going to try to work him to death to satisfy your ambition when he’s already, clearly, doing pretty well (otherwise you wouldn’t be sniffing about him in the first place, would you?). He wants a woman that is demonstrably on his side not a competitive, opinionated, contrary, pushy bitch.
Ladies, for the love of all that’s good, have a quiet sit down and a think over what men might see in you. And work on those attraction points, create a few more, tone down the unattractive points. Maybe find a few guys and have a conversation with them about what they like. Because what they like is NOT what you like (you’re projecting erroneously) and definitely not what the feminists have been spouting (feminism is big business that uses women, it’s not for women anymore).
At your point in life, with what you want to do, you aren’t driving the market, the men you seek are. And they really are NOT looking for “opinionated and ambitious.” and very few of comaparable age are looking for immediate kids*. If you’re set on kids, maybe look older, look at already fathers amenable to having a second family. You might have to compromise to get what you want – the horror. But you should have worked out that now is the time to get practical. Time is not on your side. You have been lied to about what features are desired by men. If you want to get angry about that, talk to the feminists and older women that fucked it up (but deny it), they’re the ones that led you to this situation, not men.
Unruffle your feathers ladies, it’s time to get pro-active and practical.
*Forget the feminist drivel that there’s a male menopause/father created genetic problems rise like women’s do…because neither is true (go look for the medical FACTS, look for the ABSOLUTE NUMBERS. The usual lies are spun as ‘10% rise’ but the relevant information you need to have is 10% rise from what level?). If you need to, get a numerically competent man (get the information straight, not emo-twaddle wrapped to save your feelings – you need to understand this) to explain that 16% rise in risk of lightning strike doesn’t matter remotely as much as 16% (one more round loaded in a 6 chamber revolver) increase in rounds when playing russian roulette. One doesn’t matter, the other definitely does.
“comaparable” – oops. might need to copyright that.
“from what level?)” italics should have ended there.
Yea Spwany, I’m right there with you.
Smart is an asset I reckon, expect most women piss away their smarts on trivial matters. Good judgment and common sense is much more important then IQ and the various things women find important.
Opinionated…. hell no. Outside life is combative enough. I want peace in my house and domestic life. So her submission to my leadership and her desire for a peaceful home life coupled with her good judgement (such as it is with women) counts for more. Besides I don’t much care to discuss what other folks care about, most of folks care about all the wrong stuff anywhichway
Ambitions…. well my ambition is to be happy, have a happy and healthy home full of joy and simple pleasures while being self reliant. That best be her greatest ambition too and I already know how to fix my tractor and what not besides all the indoor domestic stuff. Since she probably cannot run a chainsaw and log splitter or kill and clean chickens, she best out to take some of the indoor domestic stuff of my shoulders…. otherwise, sex is easy to come by, my dogs are excellent companions and there are countless miles of road I have not yet taken my bike to
Any rate seems to me, them folks are trying to define quality woman as a woman with masculine traits, badly displayed masculine traits. Guess what? I have all the masculine traits covered. Them harppy’s would be better served learning how to be classically feminine and how to demonstrate their femininity vs doing a piss poor job of pretending to be men with tits.
Note on good judgement, really her best act of good judgement is to submit to my vision and leadership the best that she can, with great make up sex or blueberry muffins when she fails @ it.
@Ton
It was BadPainter, I think, that came up with the phrase ‘cargo-cult masculinity’ for what feminist women attempt. They want all of the good attributes of the alpha male (respect, power, money) without any of the yucky, boring, tricky stuff like earning respect (bad news everybody, respect is earned, not innate), using good judgement in wielding power (otherwise you should not have power), earning money (marrying into money is NOT the same thing as earning it, unless you’re a whore).
—
“smart, opinionated and ambitious”
they mistake ‘obnoxious know it all’ for smart. A smart person knows his stuff, he doesn’t need to shove it in your face to ‘prove’ how smart he is. Calm authority beats obnoxious know it all every day of the week.
Opinionated is bad for both sexes, it’s obnoxious (Merriam Webster – unduly adhering to one’s own opinion or to preconceived notions – that’s the definition men think of when a woman says she’s opinionated; pig headed and loud mouthed). Having well judged opinions that one is capable of calmly defending in debate is not the same thing. And it sure as hell isn’t attractive to men.
Ambitious, as you say, it depends on what they’re aiming for. My go to assumption is that it’s prestige by proxy for the woman – his respect, power, money reflected on her social standing. A male partner of such an ambitious woman is going be nagged, pushed, criticised. No guy is going to sign up for that. A supportive wife aiding him in his career, yeah, why not? But ‘ambitious’ has the wrong connotations when the man hears it from a woman wanting to marry him.
—
Personally any mate I’m interested in much like what you describe (I’m a man, don’t need another one, particularly a poor, pale, distorted reflection of one), but the point I’m trying to make to the ladies is that Very, very Few Men find the traits that those women claim to own attractive. I’m not trying to say that what I want as a mate is what all men want, I’m trying to do them a solid and tell them that the traits they crave to exhibit are repulsive to most men.
High-quality women will probably continue to have casual sex in their twenties and in between relationships, but will only consider for relationships men who treat them seriously.
“High Quality” defined how?
Defined as “hot”? Yes, I would agree if that is the criterion.
Defined as “great wife material”? Certainly not (at least not for me).
“High Quality” defined how?
Once again, the only admission is “confident”.
Yea Spawny, I have no idea what kind of painter our brother is, but he can turn a phrase
The other day he said something and out the door I went to admire a couple of things I’ve built. Nothing grand like him but still
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