“They say we’re animals, uh-uh, I don’t agree with them,
I’ll prove em wrong, but right is what you’re provin’ em…”
-Heavy D, “Self-Destruction”
I have a very close childhood friend I’ll call “Kyle”. Kyle and I were inseperable coming up – sleepovers at each other’s house, playing Godzilla and the Hulk together, you name it. As we got older the games we’d play with each other and other boys in the ‘hood changed, but we remained thick as thieves.
Then, as we got into our adult years, things changed, in a very big way; you see, Kyle got involved in the drugs trade. Like many young Black Men, the siren call of the streets and the promise of the lifestyle the drugs trade made, he was caught up in it all, and on some levels, quite a few in fact, it was understandable – Black Men continue to be “last hired, first fired”. Still, I understood the all too real downsides and tradeoffs of such a profession. Drugs has destroyed what was left of once proud, respectable working class and in some cases, even middle class precincts of Black Philly, where now, even today, long blocks of boarded up homes now stand.
I understood my friend’s situation, but I couldn’t abide by it; and so, after a long night of reflection, I decided to have a sitdown with him, and tell him, that so long as he was in the drugs game, we could no longer be friends. I let him know that I respected his decision to live his life as he sees fit, that I loved him like a brother, but I just didn’t get down like that.
We didn’t speak for more than a decade. During which time, I felt horrible. Doing the right thing rarely feels good.
Among the many lessons I learned from that time, is that people can and will make judgments about you, based on the company that you keep – and they’re not going to be inclined to parse out all the nuances of your associations with certain others. It’s a lesson that has come roaring back at me over the past five years of being a Manosphere, Men’s Issues blogger: people can and will make judgments about your blog based on the nature, tenor and tone of the comments it attracts and generates. Indeed, I’ve found over the years, that it really doesn’t matter what you actually write; what matters is what kind of commenters you get.
I’ll be completely, 100% honest with you. I really, truly, do not like that fact. But a fact of life it is, nevertheless.
The events of roughly the past month or two here at J4G has been one that has made me think long and hard, the same way I did that night before I had that sitdown with Kyle. There are commenters here who I’ve known for years; others, who are more relative newcomers, nevertheless have contributed to making this place an environment that generates a hella more heat than light. It’s gotten to a point where I’m getting emails from folks who have told me, that they’re essentially living a double-life – they read this blog but they dare not tell anyone in their real life about it, not because of the actual content of the blog itself, but because of the people who populate the blog’s comments – who give one on the outside looking in the very real impression that this is a motley crew of malcontents, misanthropes, emotional and social retards, nihlists, and yea, I’ll say it, misogynists. And that’s just for starters. It deeply hurt me to read private, off the record emails from people, who like what I and other writers here at J4G are trying to do, but simply cannot bring themselves to comment here, for all the nuttery that’s been going on. There are Black people who know of J4G and actually like much of what I and other writers have to say, but can’t bring themselves to come here and participate for the racist nutters in the crowd spouting their drivel. There are Women who read J4G religiously but won’t comment for the stompdown and virulent mean-spiritedness toward Women as a whole on the part of a not insignificant number of commenters here. And there are even Men who know of J4G and want to give their two cents but are strongly dissuaded from doing so, because they don’t want to be associated with antisocial types that always seem to have a voice in the ‘sphere in general. It all adds up to a relatively small number of people hogging the public square and holding everyone else hostage, and that isn’t just fundamentally unfair, it’s also fundamentally un-American, too.
Whether the Manosphere writ large is full of such people is a matter of some debate; after all, no census has been conducted along these lines as far as I’m aware. But what can be said, fairly strongly, is this: that those who are among its loudest “voices” are those who just so happen to fit the descriptors I’ve noted above; and they are doing the Manosphere a grave disservice. In fact, the Great Tragedy of the Manosphere, is that for all the talk about the Feminine Imperative, Gynocracy, White Knights and Manginas and so forth – all of which are legitimate concerns, mind you – the single biggest impediment, enemy I would dare say, to the Manosphere, is it’s own tendency and penchant for getting in its own way. Any legitimate points or arguments they make, are lost in the shuffle of the “noise” that this relatively small band of nutters consistently churns out – and that, is truly sad.
What has been going on here, in this forum, isn’t what I envisioned for J4G more than a year ago. What I envisioned was a space for Men from all walks of life in general, and Common Guys like me in particular, to be heard in their own voices on the following question:
What does it mean to be a Man, in early 21st century American life? Now What?
The “Now What?” part of the question is hugely important, because it properly frames the discussion on what I think is a huge problem in our time – the conversation in the public square, has largely been dominated by extremists, on ALL sides. And what’s worse, these extremists, again on ALL sides, are actually small numbers of very vocal people, who just happen to have enough time, energy, resources and know-how, to make everyone else’s life utterly miserable. Civil, reasoned discourse has been replaced with hyperbole, rhetoric in extremis, and namecalling all designed to destroy the other side, not merely prove how and why they’re wrong. What’s even worse is that the “conversation”, if one can call it that, centers on old hat stuff that has been long decided – there’s no imagination, no creative or innovative “takes” on the issues…it’s just one long, insufferable, repeating loop of long-ago addressed “grievances”. Meanwhile, the world has moved on and there are very real, and urgent, challenges to face in our time. And neither side seems able or interested, in grappling with that.
Add to that the somewhat unique feature of the vocal contingent of the Manosphere commentariat, who seems intent on, to borrow a phrase from The Dark Knight, just wanting to see the world burn. Not only do they offer anything in the way of solutions, but they seem intent on making sure that no one else tries to seek out any either; that their “solution” is to Burn The Mutha Down.
I can understand their position. I can even respect it.
But I will no longer abide by tacitly cosigning it here.
Because, make no mistake about it, that is precisely what I and the rest of the team here at J4G are in fact doing, when we allow such commentary to run untrammeled in this space. We are cosigning, by allowing its existence, such comments, and others, whom I honestly think are indeed the Silent Majority, take note and vote with their feet. I may not be able to save the Manosphere at large from its own self-destructive tendencies, but I CAN save J4G. Because the J4G that I’ve worked so hard to put together and keep together, is something that’s worth saving. And I’ll be damned if I’m going to let it be taken over by people who just want to see the world burn.
So, effective immediately, here’s how it’s going to go down:
All are welcome to participate in the forum, on the proviso that they actually bring at least as much light as they do heat. You got a criticism, you better make sure you bring a solution, too. I want to see more Men actually talking about the things they’re doing in their own lives and the lives of their fellow Men, to make this world a better place. I want to see Men talk about improving themselves, yes for their own benefit, but also for the benefit of Women who would like to partner with Men worth the trouble. I would like to see more talk from the Men here about their own hopes, fears and challenges – not as a pity session, but to encourage other Men, that they’re not in this alone. I want more Men in this space to talk honestly about themselves, about their lives, because that’s something worth talking about, and that the world needs to hear more of.
I want to see our commenters refine their thoughts into civil, reasoned, thoughtful arguments, be they pro or con in relation to the topics that are discussed here – and I want to see more focus and emphasis on the actual topics being discussed, rather than “idle chit-chat” about someone else’s comment(s). I find that the latter tends to cause the discussion to “drift” away from the actual topic itself, and pretty soon we’re on some other stuff altogether – which, as we’ve previously seen, isn’t always by accident on the part of some here.
If you look at my own writings closely, this is what I do – I bring often very pointed critiques of things and people, but I always offer solutions as well. To be sure, one doesn’t have to buy into either – but you can’t say that I don’t do what I just laid out above. To my friends, let this serve as a template for you to follow.
Now – if you are inclined to attempt to “debate” me about this, don’t. We’ve heard all the arguments – in my case in particular, for five years at this point. In fact, there are guys who regularly comment here that I know who have been saying the exact same thing, for five years(!). And from what I can tell, they haven’t improved or grown personally at all over that course of time; an argument could be made that they’ve made themselves worse. I don’t want to use the Button, but you all know by now that I can and will wield it like a scalpel, so please, do not force my hand. This isn’t up for discussion here – this is a “sh*t or get off the pot” moment for you here. You are either going to clean up your act, or you are going to find it increasingly difficult to exist in this space.
I’m doing this, because as I said, I think the J4G Project, is a worthy and noble one; one that is worth getting the world’s attention to sit up and take notice of. The lives of Men, being told in their own voices, is something that is sorely needed in our time right now. And because, at bottom, I want to make people THINK. Not “convert” them over to my or the team’s point of view; simply to THINK. And I’m doing this because I want to continue to partner and work with highly talented and thoughtful, reasoned people like Dr. Jeremy, and Dr. Edward Rhymes, and my team mates here at J4G, like Ciaran and Ted D and Morpheus and Han Solo and Sir Nemesis and Deti, and I want really thoughtful commenters like Novaseeker and Bastiat and Ms. Liz and Ms. LynM not to feel that their throwing pearls before swine and wasting their time. They all have something very important to share and to say, and the “noise” has been crowding out their “signal” for far too long here. That’s not fair, and, since I have taken it upon myself to be the “default setting” of J4G, it happened on my watch, and I am taking full and complete responsibility for that and will take steps to fix it.
This is not a free-fire zone, fellas. J4G is bigger, and better than that – and so are you.
A Final Word To The Critics
Today is a day for the record books, for you will be able to claim a real victory – enjoy it, because it will not last long. Now that this little corner of the Manosphere is cleaning house, you will no longer have as much running room as you did before. See, the people I’ve addressed aren’t the only ones who just want to see the world burn - so do you. That’s because, you never were really interested in engaging, honestly, the issues raised here at J4G. That explains how and why you never bothered to deal with them in the first place. Sure, you’ll be able to argue that it was the nutters who kept you from doing so, or what you perceive to be the wrongheaded thinking on the part of myself or the other writers here – but, so long as said nutters had the full run of the house, I for one will fully concede that you had a point.
But now that I have fully owned the problem that has cropped up in my midst and set out to fix it, the focus shifts back to you. I for one actually hope that you have legitimate critiques of what we write here at J4G – civil, reasoned, thoughtful counter-arguments, worthy of the time and consideration of our readers to be bothered with. Something tells me that you’re not up to the job – that, in truth, the ONLY reason you bothered to be so vocal about your “critique” of the “loud voices” in the Manosphere, is because, like them, you too have little to offer the world, at the end of the day. As I’ve said before, Game recognize Game, and Like, truly does attract Like, hmm?
I say, that as soon as the problem being addressed today is solved, we’ll be seeing a lot less of you, because your reason for being here in the first place will no longer exist.
Perhaps you will prove me wrong?
So, to recap:
If all you have to offer any given discussion is
“(ALL) Women ain’t sh*t”
“It’ll never work”
“You’ll never make it”
“The world is coming to an end”
OR
If someone else attempts to offer something constructive and your first impulse is to rhetorically take a stinky, runny dump all over it
Then you really have nothing to offer the J4G audience, and you’d be better served heading somewhere else in the Manosphere where you can do you in peace.
IF on the other hand, you offer a civil, reasoned, thoughtful critique of a problem you see existing out in the world, you have an obligation to at least try to come up with some kind of solution. It doesn’t even have to be all the way worked out – take a shot in the dark! It’s much better than being the proverbial nattering nabob of negativity, Man. I’m just being real.
OK, that’s it.
Constructive thoughts in the comments, please. I won’t ask twice.
Now adjourn your arses…
The Obsidian
Bravo, Obsidian. You are a man of courage and conviction, my friend.
I welcome a shift from the “women are sluts” side of the red pill.
Rollo’s and Hollen comments deleted… I see what this “new day” means. Are seeing a HUS type of purge here?
I agree with the general scope of this post – add something of value to the discussion, and stay away from simply bitching. We all know about the grievances men face in today’s brave new world, and while many are legit, they’ve been covered here and elsewhere as nauseum.
However, I would like to shine light on this statement: “I want to see Men talk about improving themselves, yes for their own benefit, but also for the benefit of Women who would like to partner with Men worth the trouble.” IMHO, it is a slippery slope to try to start framing discussion of self improvement in the frame of how it benefits women, as this plays right into the hands of the folks who seek to becontrolling the inter-sexual dynamic for so long.
(Editor’s Note): I understand; and yet, I reject the idea that there must be an “either/or” way of doing business here. I say it’s BOTH/AND, and that Men in our time should learn how to navigate the two with aplomb and grace.
There is nothing inherently wrong, or “misogynistic”, with men improving themselves for themselves – the Manosphere is one of the few places men have to discuss such things amongst themselves, and whether you like it or not, O, J4G is and will be associated with the Manosphere.
(Editor’s Note): Nor have I made any such argument. Please see above…
If people try to continuously
wrap their discussions of self improvement with destructive ”
fuck all those whores” type complaining, by all means call them out or deal with them how you see fit, but please don’t turn this place into a heavily moderated echo chamber where we must pay homage to the women that some of us are trying to please. You have built a brand by righteously fighting for men having their say in the discussion – please don’t turn your back on that.
(Editor’s Note): I’m not. But, there is a big difference between giving Men a platform to be heard in their own voices, and giving a platform to those who just want to see the world burn.
Forgive my spelling and grammar errors, it’s hard to type out a long post on a mobile device that autocorrects the hell out of you.
This is verbatim the rationale Susan Walsh uses to justify her censoring, deletion and scrubbing of post which didn’t fit with her rebranding. What you are trying to do now is rebrand J4G in EXACTLY the same, more palatable to purple pill sensitivities that Walsh did. The next step is to commercialize and only only allow agreement with that narrative in the comments.
(Editor’s note): The only reason why I’m taking the time out to engage you Rollo, I’d because you actually have made an effort to make some sense.
You are wrong about me. Ms. Walsh had nothing in the least with my position on the matters here. Not do I have any desire or interest in the least toward “rebranding” anything. I simply want a better environment than the ones that has cropped up of late.
As I said in the OP, critique is fine-but it’s important that we work toward some solutions too.
ALL are welcome to participate, Rollo-no one has been banned. Ask I’m saying is that we actually put some thought into what we say here. I don’t think that’s asking too much…
Is that the direction you want this blog to head? One in which, albeit harsh, red pill truths are watered down to appeal to the feminine and feminized interests?
(Editor’s note): Not at all; talked a look art my “Watchout For The Big Girl” post for proof of that fact. And I have plans to follow it up with more “harsh truths” too.
I just think it’s possible to tell harsh truths without being a butthead about it…
J4G used to be about the unvarnished red pill counterarguments that weren’t allowed on the HUS commentary, because they were too ‘extreme’ to be allowed by that blog’s proprietor – FOR EXACTLY THE SAME REASONS YOU’RE QUOTING HERE.
(Editor’s note): No, Rollo-I made it very clear what the issue is here. I and others are just tired of the constant stream of never-ending negativity coming from a relatively small number of commenters. Feel free to address that point if you like…
Red pill truth is hard to hear, unplugging men from the Matrix is dirty work. People saturated in a lifetime of blue pill conditioning are necessarily going to be offended by even the most measured delivery of it, to say nothing about a more direct delivery, because it directly conflicts with their ego-investments about how the world functions.
(Editor’s note): See above. This isn’t about “red pill truths” Rollo, this is about a gang of people who are hell bent on making everyone else miserable because they refuse to implement the very red pill insights you speak of.
The truth will set you free, but it doesn’t make truth hurt any less, nor does it make truth any prettier, and it certainly doesn’t absolve you of the responsibilities that truth requires. One of the biggest obstacles guys face in unplugging is accepting the hard truths that Game forces upon them. Among these is bearing the burden of realizing what you’ve been conditioned to believe for so long were comfortable ideals and loving expectations are really liabilities. Call them lies if you want, but there’s a certain hopeless nihilism that accompanies categorizing what really amounts to a system that you are now cut away from. It is not that you’re hopeless, it’s that you lack the insight at this point to see that you can create hope in a new system – one in which you have more direct control over.
(Editor’s note): Well, that’s where we disagree Rollo-I’m every bit the adherent of Game that you are, and I simply do not see life in that way. I’m completely cool with your POV. Are you cool with mine?
If the writers for this blog are more interested in placating to the sensitive blue pill mores of women and purple pill men then they need to come to terms with what it is they’re really promoting now.
(Editor’s note): Again, this is about men actually doing something positive on their own lives, Rollo. Nothing more, nothing less.
On Rational Male in over 3 years I have never edited a single post, nor deleted a single comment (besides spam). The message is consistent and always open to dissenting opinions. Those opinions may be ones I categorically disagree with, but the richness and depth of that commentary only serves to reinforce and enrich the readership as a complement to whatever I’ve written.
(Editor’s note): And I fully support your right to run your forum any way you want, and the market will either reward our punish you for it. We have a different goal here at J4G though. And again, that’s perfectly fine with me. Is that fine with you?
What you’re describing as ‘nuttery’ is the expected reaction of having one’s ego-investment challenged. If your policy has changed to one of minimizing offense by editing and censoring (and eventually scrubbing posts) comments then you really need to reassess what it is you’re really promoting here, because it’s not unvarnished truth.
(Editor’s note): No, Nuttery is the right word. And I got one won’t stand by and allow people who’ve already proven they about nothing at all to trample all over the First Amendment as a cover for them being nihilist.
There are a lot of places in the sphere where they can go and do that, Rollo. Why can’t they simply go there and do them in peace?
Obs,
Something you didn’t say, but which the audience should understand as true: you just ramped up your own commitment level and raised your own bar, along with theirs. The burden of resisting entryism, colonization, etc. now runs right through you, as the other half of the barbel labeled “lift up the site.”
I’ve been where you are, with a site called windsofchange.net. We made a similar commitment. I do not regret making it, and our comments section was significantly better than most socio-political sites. I did learn a few things.
1. Let your best readers help. We actually deputized Marshals who had access to the commenter gun. We also made it clear in advance that we expected them to act like real Marshals, who are supposed to talk to far more people than they shoot. It was great.
2. Don’t get too caught up in one specific discussion. Think more in terms of lifetime participant value.
3. Have levels of escalation. Sometimes you need 2 Motrin, not a scalpel. For instance, an author had the power to ask someone to Take Ten and step out of a thread. Future posts to that thread would be deleted, but they could comment elsewhere on the site, and in subsequent posts by that same author.
4. Your site’s ongoing value is a balance. That includes not becoming bland, or feeling like some earnest white church, just s much as it involves not becoming the Heartiste comments section (which you’ve never been). If you want a space for men, it’s going to ale be a place to vent sometimes, and you’ll need some tolerance or you’ll cut your own throat. Likewise, the people who con’t let others define them, and so will sometimes come back with important insights and reminders that keep the site sharp and interesting, are sometimes on the edge. Expect the Overton Window to shift, and don’t leave yourself passed by if it does. Repeat after me: “Blandness kills, too.”
5. Understand at a deep level what your site is for. That defines and channels what you mean by contributing value to other men. This is also where we get back to subjects like entryism, colonizations, etc. If you want a higher J4G profile, that means exposure to MORE pathogens, not less, and from different sources. Example: “Lurker” spent time in the last thread spitting up feminist talking points. Ciaran engaged, and it was a waste of his time. Winds was a place where learning to debate such people had value. J4G isn’t, and unless you want to make it into that kind of place exclusively, there needs to be very little welcome mat for that except by express invitation from the team. Getting this part right is what will keep Rollo from being right about J4G turning into HUS. If you get it wrong, it will.
I wish you, and J4G, nothing but success.
(Editor’s note): Thanks for the helpful thoughts. Much appreciated!
Postscript to my comment @7: Rollo makes a lot of good points. You’re embarked on the path you’re embarked on… but you could do worse than tacking his post up on the mirror and frequently asking yourself: “Are we becoming this?”
It’s tempting to say “For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?” Except it’s bigger than that. You have been very astute in noting the correct source of many of the issues faced by the Black community around you (and if the last 40 years have taught anything, it’s that the white community is always next). Others on the site have correctly noted the totalitarian agendas afoot in society, from an ideology that has killed millions without blinking.
Lose your way, and what you all lose is the hope of making a serious difference.
Unvarnished truth as a commitment is our only way.
I will now adjourn my ass.
It’s gotten to a point where I’m getting emails from folks who have told me, that they’re essentially living a double-life – they read this blog but they dare not tell anyone in their real life about it, not because of the actual content of the blog itself, but because of the people who populate the blog’s comments – who give one on the outside looking in the very real impression that this is a motley crew of malcontents, misanthropes, emotional and social retards, nihlists, and yea, I’ll say it, misogynists.
Not only do I disagree with you, I don’t much like you. You have merely opened a new Lion’s Mouth at J4G where people can anonymously denounce others. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doge%27s_Palace
Misanthropes. Huh. That would be…you. Pandering, white-knighting, blue pill manginas. See? I can call names as well as you can.
Maybe someone is thinking about selling J4G to HuffPo? Maybe that’s the reason for the turn towards the Blue Pill at J4G?
(Editor’s note): I think we’ve proven ourselves very tolerant of you, ASD. But, if you don’t like things here there’s nothing holding you here against your will.
And no, J4G ain’t seeking out to huffpo or anyone else…
Obsidian,
Given that this is the FIRST I am hearing about a NEW Day, and that I am wiping off the egg on my face with my reply to Rollo yesterday, I’m curious exactly what this means in terms of *ACTIONABLE ITEMS*. Does Ted D or Han have any idea???
It is one thing to proclaim a new day, it is another to state the concrete actions that follow. Does this mean heavy deletion of comments???
TBH, there are some comments I am personally uncomfortable with, and some commenter attitudes that I think are counterproductive. That said, I loathe censorship, and it is a slippery slope once one embarks down that path. HUS is a perfect example of that, where now no comments that question the feminine imperative are allowed to stand.
I didn’t sign up for that when we first put this together. I’m posting this comment publicly because AFAIK there was no discussion of this amongst ourselves prior to the declaration of a “New Day”.
Rollo’s and Hollen comments deleted… I see what this “new day” means. Are seeing a HUS type of purge here?
Where did those comments go? I saw them earlier.
My $.02: consider converting from op-ed based leading headline content (blog model) to a discussion forum template (crowdsource model). To do this, you have to get the subcategories right, which is tricky. What you might need to do is to come up with a model of basic, common skills that would go into your conception of masculinity, which to me sounds like a “proud, capable man working to make himself/his tribe/his community better” (and there are of course many ways to do this).
For example: J4G could have categories for:
1. Male Issues Political Activism, Legal Threatwatch, and Social Commentary
2. Hard Skills (Physical Fitness, Fighting, Survivalism, etc.)
3. Soft Skills (Game, Social Engineering, Influence, Style, etc.)
4. Hobbies, Toys, & Interests (grilling the perfect ribeye, race-chipping a hotrod, fly-fishing equipment, etc.)
5. Philosophy, Great Books, and the Good Life
6. Economics, Personal Finance, and Careers
…I literally just pulled those out of nowhere. No doubt others here could come up with a better list. My only caution would be to keep it fairly clean and simple and short, and not to have a million sub-forums.
You might want to have a specialized mod or subject matter expert for each sub-category, but the cool thing is that any “vetted” member of J4G would be able to post an OT. So you create an incentive for people with something to say to launch threads. Some will have 0-5 replies, but others may become epic monster threads. Guys who have little interest in, say, political debates can simply post their experiences with creatine or review a tactical shooting class or whatever in a Hard Skills subforum. You cast a wide net and eventually, hopefully, everyone gets a little better informed in every coverage area.
It might take a little while for something like this to get going, but a very strong community of people who actually form real-life collaborations and friendships can come out of such an activity.
…Just throwing an idea out there…
(Editor’s note): As always, excellent comments and good ideas, Bastiat. Kudos!
@Morpheus #10
This comment is the only thing keeping me from bowing out and moving on.
For now. We’ll see how things play out. Not that I have any illusions about the importance or unimportance of my presence here, but I’ve never been one to avoid shooting my mouth off when given the opportunity.
(Editor’s note): Take heart buddy, you are far from the problem here. I got one greatly enjoy what you have to say…
Deti’s silence in this and the previous comment thread speaks volumes.
I’ve changed my mind, no counterargument from the previous thread on my part is necessary when this is the sea change being instituted here.
You want my counterargument? Start reading the posts from my Year One page at the top of RM. I’ve got 3 years of counterarguments there and I’m done playing step-and-fetchit for simplistic blue pill intellectual lethargy, especially from people who should know better already.
My guess is O has swallowed the MRA cool aid to the letter. They hate feminism, but pick & pull only what’s necessary from the red pill that draws more men to the movement.
Everything I asserted about J4G in the previous thread is confirmed by this post.
Enjoy your capitulation to the FI, I’m sure Giggles will have a warm welcome for you on the front page of HUS tomorrow morning.
(Editor’s note): You know Rollo, if you really tried, you could make an actual argument. Schoolyard taunts are so beneath you.
@Joe,
Thanks for the advice and the wisdom.
“Lurker” spent time in the last thread spitting up feminist talking points. Ciaran engaged, and it was a waste of his time.
I don’t see it that way. If we want to crawl out of this rabbit hole and engage the world, we are going to be facing those talking points every day, stated a lot more aggressively and a lot less politely than lurker did. We need to prepare our talking point responses.
Yesterday I found out that my partner’s 22 year old son died of an overdose. When my children were growing up, a group of about 10 families comprised of my friends and co-workers would go camping 3 times a year and bring all our kids. It was so much fun! I watched these kids grow up from babies to small adults. I was thinking of all those beautiful little boys who would have so much fun fishing, hiking, building campfires, etc….and what their lives are like now. My son is autistic and struggling with keeping a job and going to tech school, social skills we’ve put on the back burner for now. My BFF’s son ( who wanted to be a minster) decided he wouldn’t attend class all semester and was kicked out of school with only 12 hrs to go to graduation. He now works at Chick Fil-A. My other friend has two sons, both have dropped out of school. Both had a drug problem. Thankfully, one joined the Air Force and is now thriving. The other is surviving on part-time jobs and battles depression. Another partner’s son has been battling drug addiction since he was 14. He is now 18, and despite expensive “schools” that cater to this problem, he is living on the streets in Denver…selling hand painted skate boards and buying legal marijuana. On the other hand, all the daughters are thriving. Everyone is going to college, getting good grades, getting internships. They are looking forward to good jobs and starting families. They are pretty young ladies and are very well mannered. Now these are UMC families. None of these children were denied a good education or encouragement to be their very best. Nobody loves their little boys any less than their girls!!!!!! Please believe me when I say that. My son owned my heart. So why aren’t our boys thriving??? One out of 150 children are autistic and they are mostly boys. Men are 4 times more likely than women to commit suicide, yet they are the least likely to seek out help. Men are not as interested in college anymore. Women are 33% more likely to graduate from college. Why???? Please don’t tell me its because “these bitches don’t know how to make sammiches!” This problem is so complex. Our society has changed so much in the past 40 years and its not just feminism. If your website is trying to find out why our sons (and men in general) aren’t thriving and maybe find some solutions…..then God bless you and I wish you all the luck in the world.
(Editor’s note): Does Rollo or anyone who thinks like him care to respond to what this lady has just said?
Anyone?
Eh. No one should read anything into my relative silence in this thread. I’m watching events unfold with ….interest, is about all I can say.
I can say, at this point, that a “movement” blog or one seeking “activism” beyond self help and self improvement, is in my view wrongheaded and misguided, and isn’t likely to succeed based on what we know about the way most men approach these sorts of issues.
(Editor’s note): Care to explain AVFM’s conference? Care to explain Gamergate? Care to explain the Pickup community?
Appreciate the willingness to hold space for awkward topics, i look forward to more of that. That last conversation tried many of our ability to maintain amused mastery, didn’t it? Haidt’s “The Righteous Mind” may be helpful for all here. We are most of us far less rational than we prefer to believe. Kahneman’s “Thinking, Fast and Slow” also makes the case for our being less rational than our rational mind wants to think. The Dawkins reference on the last conversation was interesting. That guy sure is emotionally invested in hating on god, ain’t he? He also seems to be a bit of a one trick pony in that area. Whether it is obsession with ‘The Patriarchy” or “The Feminine Imperative” or “God is Bad” its still obsession. Which is not to say that none of these exist, but to give them so much attention gives many the impression that one is in denial of one’s own agency. I would also prefer more focus on action than resignation, even as i gotta admit I’m unlikely to go public with my thoughts on these topics ever. I suggest more slow thinking and less immediate typing for all, I don’t see excellence in rationality produced often when amygdalic rapid reactions are involved. A peeve about editorial style – How about if instead of talking/typing in the middle (on top of) of someone else’s thoughts, respond in the flow with everyone else? Heh – and good luck managing the rest of the j4g crew Obsidian, looks like that could have been handled better. Just because someone I don’t like says 2+2=4 doesn’t make it wrong, let’s not fall into that trap. See y’all again soon.
@LynM,
Yesterday I found out that my partner’s 22 year old son died of an overdose.
That breaks my heart. That’s every parent’s worst fear.
So why aren’t our boys thriving???
And why does no one seem to care?
Our society has changed so much in the past 40 years and its not just feminism. If your website is trying to find out why our sons (and men in general) aren’t thriving and maybe find some solutions…..then God bless you and I wish you all the luck in the world.
Thank you. That’s why I spend so much of my time working with boys. That’s why I want to do something positive on this site.
Ciaran:
you are overstating the case by saying no one cares. I think people coming here to talk about their experiences and putting out the knowledge for men so that men themselves can decide how best to go forward, is not “nothing”.
@deti,
I was referring to society in general, not the present company. The things LynM mentioned are happening all over, but where’s the outrage? You don’t see boo about it in the papers or on the tube. It’s like boys will be boys, and kill themselves.
Lyn…I couldn’t agree more, thankyou for that post.
Bastiat: “My $.02: consider converting from op-ed based leading headline content (blog model) to a discussion forum template (crowdsource model). To do this, you have to get the subcategories right, which is tricky. What you might need to do is to come up with a model of basic, common skills that would go into your conception of masculinity, which to me sounds like a “proud, capable man working to make himself/his tribe/his community better” (and there are of course many ways to do this).”
That’s a really good idea, Bastiat. A political debate forum I used to frequent did something similar, and it worked very well I think. I enjoyed that type of format. That site, just to contrast, was heavily moderated (I was a moderator as well) and I wouldn’t like to see that level of moderation here…it worked well for what it was intended to be.
For myself, I kind of enjoy the spirited nature of this site. I’ve always thought it walked the line between throwing brick a bats at each other at one end and becoming an echo chamber at the other end rather well. I, candidly, want it to remain a site for men where “women are welcome, too”. I couldn’t stay at Athol Kay’s site beyond a couple of days because I found it to be too girlie/feely and I couldn’t stay at Heartiste because it was too toxic. I’ve always liked this place and I’d hate to see it change its format much.
(Editor’s note): Thank you Ms. Liz. That’s exactly the balance we want to strike here. It CAN be done.
Formula, that is…intended to say formula, not format above.
I’ve got a better hypothetical for you, how would you counsel this kid before he shot his cousin, the girlfriend, 3 other classmates and himself after his cousin got with his girlfriend?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2807983/You-no-longer-brother-school-love-triangle-drove-fifteen-year-old-gunman-shoot-close-cousin-took-girl-attack-left-one-dead-four-injured.html
Would you tell him he needs to be more compassionate and understanding about her feelings and he ought to just be himself and the “right” girl will come along and love him for ‘who he is’?
Or would you explain to him that there is no ONE, there are no soulmates, that if he breaks his feminized conditioning and realizes that he’s got more potential than any 15 y.o. girl has now he’ll be better off in the future? Would you disabuse him of the conditioning that would bring him to despairing over his girlfriend and ultimately killing his cousin?
Would you give him the red pill, disabuse him of his feminine conditioned idealisms and save his life or would you feed his despair with more pretty lies of the blue pill and feminine identification?
Hardly a month goes by that I’m not made aware of the murder-suicide of husband frustrated with his marriage who, by one method or another, was forced into the harsh red pill realization that hypergamy didn’t care about his sacrifices. Where is your fucking Purple Pill then?
One of the most frequent emails I receive is from soldiers returning home from deployment who’ve read my book and thank me for helping them understand the reasons why their squad and platoon mates put a gun to their heads because for all of their training, no one prepares them for dealing with hypergamy, the feminine imperative or the simple fact that they believe the women they’re coming home to will honor their sacrifice and duty with appreciation and devotion.
I’m appreciative of their praise, but I don’t deserve it – these men deserve a better preparedness for what they’re willing to sacrifice.
So you’re OK with the Purple Pill? What does the Purple Pill tell this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_StCzStBy0
(Editor’s note): Good question on a timely topic. Tell you what: how about you wrote a guest post for us here where you lay out your solution to that kid’s problem? We’ll post it up here and have a discussion about it afterwards. Fair enough?
On boys, the standard societal answer is that this is a primary example of toxic masculinity. That is, of boys were not so narrow in their masculinity, and instead embraced their inner feminine (like Lurker was talking about in the last thread), they would be thriving instead of suffering. So we need more feminism, this time for men and boys. It’s the “patriarchy is bad for men (and boys) too!” line of argument, which is not new. So unless you approach it from a feminist perspective, with the idea of Kimmelizing your sons, you will get the cold shoulder.
Women should be more like men (more aggressive, driven, pushy, selfish) and men should be more like women (more emotional, more connected, less interested in competition with other men, more interested in collaboration and so on). Only in doing so, do we achieve equality — women more like men, men more like women = equality.
So, sorry, but feminism IS the main reason we see this happening. Christina Hoff Sommers, herself a feminist, has explained this in her book and in countless articles since then. Feminism is the issue. And since feminism is dominant, unless you follow feminism’s prescription for malady (which is make boys more like girls, just like we’ve made girls more like boys), you will get treated like a three-headed misogynist throwback freak.
(Editor’s note): Good points, and let’s not forget Camille Paglia as well.funny thing about both of them though, is that their or there fighting the good fight.
What are we doing?
Obs – I don’t recall ever discussing this new day, but being as I checked out to take care of other issues I’m not insulted. But do not speak for me. Seems like Morpheus feels the same. Frankly I’m not bothered that some people are afraid to post here. If they don’t have to fortitude to take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
Like I said on the previous thread, this whole scenario seems somehow familiar.
If it’s mutiny, so be it. Buy this sinking ship and its all yours. Otherwise I’m going to repo.
(Editor’s note): Ted, do you really think it’s perfectly ok for women-including those like bloom and Liz and LynM-to be referred to as “c-nts”? Or for racist invective too be hurled around? Or for his who’ve made it abundantly clear that they have no intention of betting themselves and want others to join their “cause”?
How does any of this help anything?
Rights-like freedom of speech-ain’t free, Ted-they come at a price. Somebody gotta pay. And I find that those who delight in saying the most outrageous things are those who are least likely to want to pay that price. They’re more than willing for others to foot that Bill.
Re#25
……”Feminism is the issue. And since feminism is dominant, unless you follow feminism’s prescription for malady (which is make boys more like girls, just like we’ve made girls more like boys), you will get treated like a three-headed misogynist throwback freak.”
Going back to the examples I listed above, I can’t see how feminism was the issue. I live in Atlanta, not Toronto or Iceland. I don’t think masculinity has died here. Those boys I listed all had Dads as role models. They were involved in sports and other “guy” things. The young man who committed suicide had a stay at home Mom and a Dad who was an Anesthesiologist. The young man who wanted to be a minister…..his Dad started out as a lineman for Georgia Power, went back to school in his late 20s and got his Masters in electrical Engineering from GA Tech and now is a big wig for The Southern Company. He took his son hunting almost every weekend during deer season. The young man living on the streets of Denver had two MDs for parents. My sons Dad was into restoring old cars and motorcycles. My son was helping his Dad drop motors into cars when he was 10. So, forgive me, but Christina Hoff Summers might just be over simplifying a bit. This problem among our sons is insidious and multi-faceted. Blaming the extremists won’t get to the core of the problem.
Sure.
I was one of those guys.
I was more or less clinically depressed when I hit 13, and it never stopped. When I was 15, Mother Dearest insisted I take Accutane, because my face was SEVERELY acne’d…she originally thought it was no big deal, until she saw my uncle’s acne had left severe scarring. She was determined to avoid that.
Accutane is a severely restricted medication. Among the list of things to check off are your standard depression inventory questions. I was afraid. I was 15. I was constantly depressed. I would cry for weeks on end and hid it because I didn’t want to be seen as weak.
But I didn’t want side effects to kill me, so I told Mother Dearest that I had all of the symptoms, except the whole wanting to kill myself thing (which was a lie, I was thinking about it most days).
I got yelled at, then marched into the Doctor’s office.
The Doctor said it was no big deal.
No one at Middle School cared much, except when I picked one kid at the top of the bleachers, and hurled him off, so he landed on his neck after a 10 or 12 foot drop.
It really became unbearable in college. Really, really bad. At one point, I got so pissed off I smashed a brick wall. I took a baseball bat to my bedroom and destroyed most everything in it a matter of minutes. I still have the dresser: I can still see the divits.
When I couldn’t break the bedframe I snapped the bat in half.
When I would commute to school in the mornings, I would cry, almost every morning. When I came back in the evenings, I was too dead to process anything.
How many people do you think tried to help me? in my 27 years, who do you think EVER tried to help me? The instances are so damn rare I can still remember every single one of them. I still remember in 7th grade, when I first started breaking down, and not knowing what was happening…we had gone to an anti-drug assembly, and had a lot of group-building activities, and told friends would be our anti-drug, but I had no friends, so I felt, and I came back to school, and tried to go to wrestling practice, but I just couldn’t stomach the effort to do anything.
That was bad. I was one of the best wrestlers on the team. The team captain came to yell at me, for just sitting there like an idiot in the school cafeteria. The coach waved him off, and asked if there was anything I wanted to talk about.
I said I was tired, and I spun the chair around so no one could see me, and stared at the ceiling, and started crying, and that was the first time I started crying in public and couldn’t fucking stop it.
I can remember that like it was yesterday, because that coach was one of the few people who ever tried to help me.
Who do you think ever tried to help me with my girl problems?
Who do you think helped me try to find a job?
Who do you think encouraged me to learn and develop myself?
Who do you think tried to make life fun for me?
Ain’t nobody got time for that!
I am better now, but I will never be “fixed.” Genetic. Inherent to my brain wiring. Also conditional. My brain knows these neural pathways very well and therefore goes down them effortlessly, like an athlete’s muscle memory or a kid making PB&J. You get on a bike and ride it: my brain sometimes runs into an obstacle and says “you know, maybe we should kill ourselves.” Oh, silly brain.
It’s correct that feminism is hardly the sole issue going on here. However, it did not help to have Blue Pill, deferent thinking downloaded into my brain, commanding me to be pathetic and servile to every woman who crossed my path, which simultaneously robbed me of my dignity and my attractiveness. Adds all sort of shitty life experiences to a garbage dump that’s damn near full.
A spark or two, and, BOOM! Methane explosion!
There but for the grace of god I go…
But there’s no real “grace of god.” I roasted those emotions in a 400,000 word bonfire after college. Novel after novel, all shitty, but it was cathartic. I hell-fired a version of myself I hardly remember and came out a more respectable, gainfully employed man.
But ain’t nobody got time for me until that funeral pyre.
Lyn —
I obviously can’t speak to your specific cases. From what I have seen (my son is 15), and from what I have also read about the issue, starting when he was around 7, is that it has to do with the schools, primarily. The schools do not set up boys to achieve, do not encourage it in a masculine way, and instead problematize boys. Not all schools do this to the same degree (I have seen that also with my own son), but all do to some degree. It can lead to a lack of motivation to succeed in the boys, which starts at a younger age, and then is exacerbated as they get older, and it becomes a pattern of a lack of motivation, which is reinforced by a system that is skewed in the other direction.
Again, this is based on what I have observed, and also is what almost all of the people who have looked at the issue from an objective perspective have said (Sommers, Peg Tyre, etc.). Tyre specifically looked at UMC white boys, and saw the same issues in their schools. And what is going on the in the schools is a direct result of feminism. Have you ever talked to someone who has an education PhD? They’re exceptionally feminist, even for the academy. (My girlfriend is a professor, and knows quite a few of them, and I’ve met some both through her and otherwise — they are the ones who set the agenda in terms of education).
Again, I have no idea what has happened in the cases you mention, and it could very well be specific to each family, but most of the literature points to changes made in the schools which has, in terms of timing, coincided with chronic underachievement and lack of motivation in boys.
“(Editor’s note): Ted, do you really think it’s perfectly ok for women-including those like bloom and Liz and LynM-to be referred to as “c-nts”? Or for racist invective too be hurled around? Or for his who’ve made it abundantly clear that they have no intention of betting themselves and want others to join their “cause”?
How does any of this help anything?”
Obs – I like Bloom, Liz, and most of the ladies here as much as I can random strangers I chat with on the Internet. However that doesn’t mean I feel the need to defend them. If they can’t or won’t do it themselves, so be it. I’m more in agreement with Rollo’s ideas on policing comments, but it’s clear you and others here feel the need to step it up and go the fully moderated route. That’s not my gig, and I have no intentions of promoting it with my active participation. Do I like comments calling others names? Nope. Do I think the ladies here deserve grief just for being women? Nope. But I used to see this place as a men’s locker room where we allowed women to take a look provided they understood it was NOT about or for them.
As to helping things: the only way I see of helping men (and let’s be clear, I am only talking about helping men. Women get more than enough help already) is to get them info and let them decide what to do with it. If they decide to go their own way? Cool. If they decide to work the system to their best advantage? Cool. If they decide to get politically active and try to tackle this from within? Cool. But I’m not looking to push an agenda. I’d much prefer to let them duke it out here and go out in the world with a better idea of what THEY want. Why? Because I truly believe that a man makes his way through adversity. And being in a place where you are called on your beliefs is a way of determining if those beliefs are true, or if they need to be parsed and adjusted.
I never set out to change the world. Mostly my intent was/is to equip men to better get what they want from it. And THEY need to decide how best to accomplish that. Not you. Not me. Not Ciaran.
Way back when I first found MMSL, and then Vox and Rollo, I had my ass handed to me regularly in the comments at both blogs. It pissed me off, but it also got me thinking about what was churning around in my head. I don’t agree with Rollo all the time, but I have a great deal of respect for his mission. Unplugging men is indeed dirty work, and any attempt to cherry coat it is futile. Most average men don’t need hand holding, they need a kick in the ass and a serious wake up call. It hurts. It’s soul crushing. And yes it causes anger and bitterness. But that’s part of the process, the goal being they push through it all and come out the other side resolved in their ideals, and with the tools to accomplish them. I distinctly remember arguing that “Game” would create a generation of cads. Now that seems so ridiculous to me that I’m embarrassed to admit it. Most guys don’t have it in them to go full cad, and that’s by design.
The Red Pill is boot camp. Not every man that signs up makes the cut. Some wash out, and some thrive. Trying to water it down to a pretty purple doesn’t make it a better process, it makes the final product less effective.
But let’s say perhaps I’m not sure of what your goal truly is. Tell me, what would you see as an improvement? Do you truly expect to get enough men on board to make legal changes? Are you truly trying to build a better beta? Honestly man, I don’t get it. All I see is a sales pitch, and I’m not entirely sure of what you’re selling.
Me? An improvement is seeing individual men take control of their lives. Getting the success they want. I have no hope that the legal climate will change as long as men are afraid to speak out under penalty of the FI and its attack dog the judicial system.
So for real: explain it to me. What is the end goal of taking away free speech and implementing active moderation? Do you feel that those people who are afraid to comment have the answer? If so, then they should comment and take their whooping. If their ideas can’t stand against opposition, they weren’t going to make it anyway. See Ciaran’s comment in the last thread which amounted to “agree or leave” and explain to me how that is an open exchange of ideas.
I agree Novaseeker.
There is a mountain of evidence that males children are at a disadvantage in schools
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1205106/The-REAL-gender-gap-scandal-Why-boys-true-victims-discrimination.html
Obsidian,
Enjoy the blog, and greatly appreciate (once again) your publishing my post. If I may be so bold, might I suggest that you are in danger of letting the perfect become the enemy of the good. Yes, some of the posters here go off in directions which I find untenable, yet I find that to be a reflection on no one other than that person. How far are you willing to go with this? Where do you draw the line?
In my own humble opinion, truth has nothing to fear from controversy. Let the naysayers and the doom-mongers have their chance… and counter them. Trust in your ability and that of your fellow writers to counter whatever is dredged up in the comment section. If there is a racist, or whatever, call him on it and shine the light of truth on him. What do you have to fear?
Personally I look forward to the conflict… “As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.”
We can’t have utopia on this earth…. and every attempt at it has ended in disaster. Sometimes you just have to accept that there will be bad along with the good and prepare to face the bad as it comes.
At any rate, it is, of course, your site and your choice. I look forward to seeing more in the future.
Cordially,
Okrahead
Re#29
Novaseeker, do you think segregating boys and girls in schools is the answer? Do boys who go to all boy schools fair better ?
ADBG…glad you survived your childhood. It sounded rough. Parenting is the most important job, yet parents are just average people with all the flaws and imperfections that come with being human. If you don’t mind me asking! Do you have any advice for parents with struggling sons? Where did your parents fail? What would you do differently?
I’m one of those lurkers who reads but doesn’t comment. But I have to say, with this OP and the last one from Ciaran, I’m *really* confused as to what’s happening to this site. For one, it seems that there’s been less contribution from all the Four Guys, and this is becoming another version of “The Obsidian Show”. (Wasn’t ‘Han Solo’ one of the Four Guys, where’s he been?)
For two, I’m wondering what’s going on with Obsidian _himself_, outside of this site. I’ve read him on various blogs on and off over the last 3+ years. It’s not that’s he’s direct or blunt, he’s always been so… but it seems that he’s become more belligerent and argumentative this year online, in general. Not sure if something’s going on with his Sun Sign, or his health, or personal situation, but the writing is different now than it used to be.
As to my “constructive solution”, I agree with Ted and others who have noted that *multiple* points of view should be discussed, rather than pushing some over others, so that each man can evaluate for himself. For example, MGTOW actually *is* a valid strategy for some-but-not-all men, despite Obs and Ciaran’s railing against it. I can personally say, I’ve “counseled” several divorced men now in their 50s, who married in their late 20s/early 30s, who now wished they’d gone that route. They were the “better betas” that Ciaran’s promoting, and they were later blindsided by frivorcing wives and paying the price for that.
So we’ll see how this plays out within J4G. But at this point, my reaction is “What the hey…?”
Novaseeker, do you think segregating boys and girls in schools is the answer? Do boys who go to all boy schools fair better ?
There are so few of them that the sample size is very skewed (mostly private academies and so on, which have their own +/-). Single-sex education, which was common enough when I was in school in the 1980s (I attended a single sex Catholic HS, as did the sisters of my schoolmates … now both are co-ed), has been eliminated for the most part. I remember reading an article in the NYT about 5-6 years ago where some education activists (i.e., parents) in Harlem were trying to set up single-sex schools to help the boys, and the response from the city’s dept of ed was that it was important for boys and girls to be in schools together so that boys could learn to deal with situations where girls outperformed them, in order to make it easier for them to deal with female bosses as adults (I’m not making this up … I don’t have the time to look it up now, but it should be Google-able). So, while I do think it would be a great idea (provided that the boy schools did things differently than the unisex ones do), it isn’t politically feasible, and the education establishment is pretty well dug in on this issue (Tyre’s book goes into that as well in some detail).
In the meantime, parents need to be cognizant of the issue, crawl all over the school staff any time something smells funny (which me and my son’s mom do regularly) and provide separately the motivation which the school may or may not be providing. Again, not all schools are equally bad — I have seen a spectrum in my own personal experience with my son. But pretty much all have something that isn’t working well for the boys, and which a parent needs to be on top of and jump on. Schools will deal with that, in my experience, on a triage basis, while not changing the system — which is unfortunately likely the best we can achieve in the time frame that is relevant for our sons at this point. Same sex education making a comeback would be great (I really do think it would), but I don’t think that’s coming any time soon, realistically.
#30: Let me reiterate that I’ve always enjoyed the spirit of discussion here. I enjoy this atmosphere and have encountered nothing I thought to be too untoward. I’m sure I’ve personally made MANY comments that might be considered over the top and objectionable in “polite circles” (like my old political debate forum) and in those places I moderate my speech a lot more. I like having the option to be frank and candid, and even perhaps vulgar at times.
I think Okrahead makes a good point about perfect being the enemy of the good, potentially.
(Editor’s note): Thanks again Ms. Liz; but, as I’ve said to Sumo, your in no way part of the problem that I was taking about, and those most sitting their voices on the matter aren’t either. As I suspected those who I am talking about are now quite mum. Funny that…
I can see the need for some moderation to keep the thread focused. In interest of full disclosure, I’m MGTOW. I was frivorced and run over. Had no idea what red pill was. I really had no understanding of Hypergamy and associated feminine traits. I’ve been hanging out in the sphere for about 2 1/2 years or so. At 58 years old, don’t reckon I’ll remarry. Just four guys has been a good blog for me, personally. The hardest thing to admit is sheer ignorance of female traits and behavior. Once I understood basic red pill, then I had to move on. Who needs to read essentially the same thing over and over when I got the point fairly quickly. Some of the women commenting have something to say. Others are there to sow dissention. So, the same goes for the men who comment…..that Katz fella was a captive of his own tongue, I would say. What I’ve learned is that feminism is, as they say, just Marxism with a dress on.
LynnM – Unfortunately, there is a war going on in education right now, and masculinity is losing. Boys can tell when they don’t count for much in school. Feminist teachers, are by definition, your son’s adversaries. They don’t have any regard for what’s best for a boy. They’ve been inculcated to verbally slight and abuse them. There’s no downside to it as there’s no way the school administration is going to stop it without serious legal warfare. My own mother was a feminist back in the 50’s. Kinda like Friedan. So, yeah, I have heard plenty about masculine misbehavior. She’s a lonely cat woman now. We’ve been estranged for years. No hope of reconciliation. I believe all feminists hate men. Some make a better show of putting up with us, but there’s hate in their hearts down deep. I don’t know how to help your son without removing him from feminist influence. Even if you had the money to put him in a private school, how can you be sure that the male teachers aren’t feminised?
Anyways, Obsidian, we’ll see what happens with the site. I agree with Okrahead. This forum benefits from an open exchange of ideas. I’ve been guilty of cultivating a redneck persona, to be sure. But I’m willing to punch above my weight in the contest of ideas.
I want to see Men talk about improving themselves, yes for their own benefit, but also for the benefit of Women who would like to partner with Men worth the trouble.
That’s a fundamental shift away from the Red Pill though. It’s these little brief comments that worry me, like this and the one that people should be happy to settle with a 3-6 after a lot of hard work. If the solutions involve taking the hard aspects of self-improvement and making the reasons women-centered, it risks being even worse, because not all problems are things men have power over to fix.
A lot of men choose MGTOW because the solutions simply aren’t realistic-they are like Neo awakening from the Matrix and being told he needs to actually learn kung-fu, not have it implanted in his brain. The base red pill isn’t easy at that. A lot of men will look at the suggestions to lift, learn Game, and do a massive amount of work on themselves and think “this isn’t possible or desirable.” Band of brothers or not. I don’t feel like you get this, and it can be the same with social as well as individual solutions. One example is Christian social cons GTOW when they say the church should no longer perform secular marriages. Sometimes the only thing that can be done is be aware.
It also depends honestly what the new JFG manifesto would be. I don’t think you’ll need to worry about moderation then; either this will wind up being a lot of misunderstanding, or you’ll just see people leave until your new audience forms. I think though it’s better to do this than waste energy berating the current audience.
Whatever you do, I wish you success.
http://www.skepticink.com/prussian/a-skeptical-look-at-the-manosphere/
http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/
Choice quotes:
“And the manosphere says: “Excellent question, we’ve actually been wondering that ourselves, why don’t you come over here and sit down with us and hear some of our convincing-sounding answers, which, incidentally, will also help solve your personal problems?””
“Yes, it is interspersed with poisonous beliefs about women being terrible, but if you have more than a quarter or so of a soul, it is pretty easy to filter those out and concentrate on the good ones.”
“It’s true: girls like this absolutely exist. I know a few of them – loud ‘party’ girls, and so on. I’m sure you know girls like this yourself. The question you should ask yourself is: what proportion of the girls you know are like this, for real?”
“The problem is with the rest of it, with the unremitting negativeness, married to a kind of parochialism.”
Here’s the view from the outside, folks: some people are quite sympathetic to what the manosphere is all about, but with some pretty serious reservations. I had a (IRL) facebook conversation which confirms this picture.
I’m just going to say it: if you are truly interested in helping men, the best course of action to take at this point is to soften the message, and take a good long look at the corpus of theories, and start to *objectively* evaluate weather a) we should be as certain as we say we are and b) what it looks like to an outsider.
I’m not going to lie – I had to compartmentalize and skeptically evaluate like *crazy* to get useful info out of the sphere.
Right now, Mating Grounds has almost caught up to Rational Male on alexa rankings, and it’s only been around for a few months.
I think we need to send out an “Obi-Wan Kenobi” message to Anonoymous71, who can tell us about the history of men’s activist groups, just so you guys can understand the typical problems that arise (especially when women are involved in the groups, as we obviously have several here trying to influence — which is what normally happens (no I am not talking about Liz and Bloom and Lyn)).
No situation is ever brand new. There’s knowledge there you guys could use, I think.
Obs,
I give you the benefit of the doubt, because I respect your tenacity and the quality of what you’ve written. At the same time, TedD gives voice to many of my own concerns.
*SHOULD* is an extremely strong word. Is it possible? Yeah, potentially, but as someone who has spent several years trying to find that balance…I find myself siding with Rollo on this argument: As long as we live in a society that conditions women to believe that men are the source of all evils and, therefore, that they are not only entitled to everything they want, but are morally obligated to strongarm men into providing it for them – then I think all of these talks of “balance” only serve to give women more leverage over men, at the expense of men’s potential well being.
IF you have already found success and women see you as their equals in status…sure, go ahead and start looking at toning things down and considering how to arrive at an equitable arrangement. If, on the other hand, you’re still trying to “find your sea legs,” and you’re seen as a wannabe, any attempt to “strike a balance” seems only to retard your progress in self-improvement.
It’s like coming to a knife fight with donuts and a cheesy grin, “I’m sure we can just work this all out without violence, right?” Metaphorically speaking, society has been trained to mercilessly cut down any men who aren’t “up to par” without a second thought. Until you can hold your own in the fight, worrying about fighting fair is only going to serve to cause you to hesitate at the moment when you need to strike.
As I said, I give the benefit of the doubt, so I’m hoping you see some nuance that I’m just not experienced enough yet to know. As it stands though, I’ve yet to see, in the previous thread at least, how your proposed ideals truly do differ from the “purple pill” peddlers who offer advice that really only benefits guys who already have enough status to spare. Rom Wills is a perfect example of this – I gather from everything he’s said that, by good looks alone, he is pretty much guaranteed to get attention from the ladies. He can afford to be nice, because they already want him, and any hints of “beta” behavior (beta in this case being a descriptor for deferential, sensitive, and/or submissive behavior, not a ranking of where he stands in a hierarchy in comparison to other men) just make him seem more attainable rather than making him unattractive.
For guys like me though, who would otherwise be overlooked and sneered at, being a bit of an asshole is not about “getting revenge,” it is actually RAISING OUR SEXUAL ATTRACTIVENESS. Just as you say about street harassment – this isn’t about trying to “get one over” on the ladies, it’s about implementing behaviors that actually work. After years of trying, and failing, to find some “middle ground,” I find that Rollo’s quoted articles are the real deal:
Hypergamy doesn’t care about your morality- it cares about your status, raw sex appeal, and your will to power.
“Then, as we got into our adult years, things changed, in a very big way; you see, Kyle got involved in the drugs trade. Like many young Black Men, the siren call of the streets and the promise of the lifestyle the drugs trade made, he was caught up in it all, and on some levels, quite a few in fact, it was understandable – Black Men continue to be “last hired, first fired”. Still, I understood the all too real downsides and tradeoffs of such a profession. Drugs has destroyed what was left of once proud, respectable working class and in some cases, even middle class precincts of Black Philly, where now, even today, long blocks of boarded up homes now stand.”
I always wonder why all the super rich and famous African Americans like Jay Z, Kanye, SnoopLion, Prince (remember ol’ boy?), Oprah, Tyler Perry and others (heck even Michael when he was alive) don’t open large factories in places like Detroit and employ thousands of black people in making “Made in America” products such as tennis shoes and other trendy products, instead of “donating” to “charities” in Africa and other countries.
Men are 4 times more likely than women to commit suicide, yet they are the least likely to seek out help. Men are not as interested in college anymore. Women are 33% more likely to graduate from college. Why???? Please don’t tell me its because “these bitches don’t know how to make sammiches!” This problem is so complex. Our society has changed so much in the past 40 years and its not just feminism.
How many of these kids grew up without fathers? How many grew up with fathers that were henpecked? From whom did they learn to become accomplished men? From women? From henpecked wimps?
Schools are VERY unfriendly towards male students, especially college. There is a new kind of youth growing up in the aftermath of feminism and they aren’t fooled like their fathers were. Women get all kinds of breaks that men do not, and these new kids know it.
Throw the above in with the fact that they watched their fathers and uncles get treated like crap and ran through the divorce mill. Then add in the way they see men treated in the media and in society at large and you have one big reason not to have anything to work towards.
Now consider that schools are teaching kids that all we really are is worm food, and that there are no moral absolutes. What exactly should they think they have to strive for, or even live for?
No, it’s not that complex. This crap didn’t become exponential until after the 1960s sexual revolution. Right after that divorces rates sky rocketed. Right about the same time that the kids from divorced families reached adulthood crime rates sky rocketed. Feminism had A LOT to do with it. If those b*tches had been making sammiches instead of burning their bras, divorcing their husbands, and lobbying to pass misandric laws, maybe things would be different right now.
http://www.fisheaters.com/garbagegeneration.html
“Yesterday I found out that my partner’s 22 year old son died of an overdose. When my children were growing up, a group of about 10 families comprised of my friends and co-workers would go camping 3 times a year and bring all our kids. It was so much fun! I watched these kids grow up from babies to small adults. I was thinking of all those beautiful little boys who would have so much fun fishing, hiking, building campfires, etc….and what their lives are like now. My son is autistic and struggling with keeping a job and going to tech school, social skills we’ve put on the back burner for now. My BFF’s son ( who wanted to be a minster) decided he wouldn’t attend class all semester and was kicked out of school with only 12 hrs to go to graduation. He now works at Chick Fil-A. My other friend has two sons, both have dropped out of school. Both had a drug problem. Thankfully, one joined the Air Force and is now thriving. The other is surviving on part-time jobs and battles depression. Another partner’s son has been battling drug addiction since he was 14. He is now 18, and despite expensive “schools” that cater to this problem, he is living on the streets in Denver…selling hand painted skate boards and buying legal marijuana. On the other hand, all the daughters are thriving. Everyone is going to college, getting good grades, getting internships. They are looking forward to good jobs and starting families. They are pretty young ladies and are very well mannered. Now these are UMC families. None of these children were denied a good education or encouragement to be their very best. Nobody loves their little boys any less than their girls!!!!!! Please believe me when I say that. My son owned my heart. So why aren’t our boys thriving??? One out of 150 children are autistic and they are mostly boys. Men are 4 times more likely than women to commit suicide, yet they are the least likely to seek out help. Men are not as interested in college anymore. Women are 33% more likely to graduate from college. Why???? Please don’t tell me its because “these bitches don’t know how to make sammiches!” This problem is so complex. Our society has changed so much in the past 40 years and its not just feminism. If your website is trying to find out why our sons (and men in general) aren’t thriving and maybe find some solutions…..then God bless you and I wish you all the luck in the world.”
Wow. Wow. Wow. So sorry to hear of all this suffering. In your small sample size its the boys who are falling prey to drugs and mental illness. I wonder if it is statistically more boys than girls across the board? It could be that girls are just less likely to engage in risky behavior. I watched as a neighbor’s teen daughter went from akward nerdy 13 year old to hot, curious 15 year old babe with a juvenile delinquent boyfriend (who was YOUNGER than her), and quit school to be “home schooled” (which she never was) and just hanging out on the streets with the neighborhood skate boarders. Other adults were concerned for her that she’d end up preggers or on/selling drugs or something serious. But no. She’s almost 20 now, hasn’t yet gotten her GED, (I think her reading level is about at 7th grade), and she has a new redneck boyfriend who’s trying to get a job at a legal marijuana factory here out West, so she’s not “doing well” by the standards of the girls you listed above, but she did manage to stay out of trouble, off the pole, not get preggers, not get drug addicted, and not commit a crime.
I attribute it to her high estrogen, low risk taking and lack of ambition. If she were more ambitious I think she might have taken some risks to make money, but she seems somewhat content to be riding on the coattails of her redneck boyfriend and his mom.
I know she suffers from depression and is pissed at her parents, though she considers her mom her “best friend” and chose to live with her dad for a few years prior to moving in with the redneck.
I attribute all this to her lack of education. “Home schooling” was an abject JOKE in her case.
REGARDING THOSE BOYS… what about vaccines? No-vaxers say so many negative side effects can be attributed to the HUGE vaccine table that has developed for kids in the last few decades. Maybe the toxins in the vaccines mix in a way with boys hormones that they don’t with girls resulting in a tendency toward drug addiction?
There’s also flouride and hormones in the tap water.
I DON’T KNOW. But it does seem like there’s something going on PHYSICALLY with kids these days. Although maybe its always been like this and we are just more aware of it now.
Why not ask those boys? Ask them why they chose to live that type of lifestyle DESPITE coming from privileged UMC families that loved them.
Obs, yer a finely made lightning rod. As such, you have to take the detritus that is included with everything the lightning strikes and draws to the ground. I first saw your posts back when Heartiste was Roissy and later on your own blogs, but I have seen J4G in the last few months and am wondering if we’re seeing a palace coup here as I don’t see any other voice posting with the frequency that you do. and now you want to control the commentary within an inch of its life.
A Rollo approach: while he doesn’t censor, he doesn’t agree with everyone who posts there. Another thing, he has to make a living doing something else so we won’t find him engaging every last argumentative commenter. Nor do you see him taking it personally when someone goes on the attack. Probably keeps his blood pressure down that way. You might pick up something from that approach.
Yeah I have picked up the comments about how “nasty” and “misogynistic” the androsphere blogs are. Even Dalrock comes under that criticism. My comment every time is that men need their own space to work this shit out among themselves and that process is often not for the faint-hearted. Space that is so often violated by the feminists and other SJW’s. It’s your blog, your forum so far be it from me to tell you what to do or tell you what your purpose should be, just offering another perspective.
For you and for all men, an excellent book on interpersonal dynamics that I found very valuable in my growth as a man: The Four Agreements by Miguel Ruiz. Not a man-specific book, but its concepts are not far off of the male perspective.
I was referring to society in general, not the present company. The things LynM mentioned are happening all over, but where’s the outrage?
There is no outrage for the same reason no one cared about the boys killed by Boko Haram in Nigeria. The presidents boss (his wife) and the MSM made it clear that kidnapping the girls was a terrible thing. The boys, not so much. Males are considered expendable and always have been. This is somewhat tolerable when there is some reciprocity such as found in patriarchal societies. In a gyno-centric society like ours I doubt it remain tolerable for long.
Definitely noticed a shift over the last few months in the tone of the website…
So the deal is this….what are the guys going to do that have been essentially lied to their entire lives regarding what it takes to maintain successful relationships?
I believe that part of the value of this site is the ability to vent frustration. Maybe that’s not what you (Obs) envisioned it as. Yet you’ve revealed (inadvertently or not) that you think men should be making a greater effort to make themselves more “attractive” to women in order to give themselves a better chance at female interaction. The typical response seems to be, why is that a one-sided thing?
We all know why. Pussy expensive, penis cheap. (till they’re past….38?..idk)
If this is a space for guys, then it shouldn’t be moderated for the sensibilities of women. As for the racial stuff, yeah, I’m a black man, not everything I see here is pleasant. I learn a metric fuckton of stuff though, even from the most prejudiced of posters. And sometimes, the real isn’t going to come in a nice package.
The rawness has value. I’d take Rollo’s criticisms as an ode to the value of the space. So I ask this question. Is this site simply to help men improve in order to secure sexual access to women? If so, you should state that explicitly. Not everyone is here for that? You write lately as if every man should be trying to get a woman or should be silent. Is that what you mean to express?
If I sound unsympathetic to the plight of LynM’s friends, I apologize. It’s not that I am unsympathetic, it’s that I have watched my own friends and acquaintances waste their lives away and / or die.
Some overdosed on drugs, others went to prison, others were shot. Almost all of these were from broken families or baby mamas. Almost all of the broken families were from the women divorcing their husbands.
I worked with a guy who lived in the back of his truck because his wife left him and took his son. He had to live in his truck because he could not afford a place and also pay the court ordered CS and alimony to his cheating wife. His son ended up living a gay lifestyle after having been raised by his mother.
I could tell stories like this all night, but what would be the point.
I think it’s a good idea. At the end of the day it’s your blog site. My only concern is that sometimes the host have a way of calling out certain segments of the Redpillers (MGTOW). I think by doing that it does derail the argument from the point of the post.
I know MGTOW philosophy is not well liked in most circles, but we do have valuable incite. Some of us do walk around with a chip on our shoulder and do respond when we feel we are picked on. I don’t like the Alpha/Beta dynamic, but I do try to understand where they are coming from without denigrating their experience. They have valuable info to relate.
My hope is that if there are post on a topic keep it to the topic. No side digs that will splinter the message. If you want to address the different philosophies of Red Pill do so in a separate post. It may be helpful for the authors to air their exceptions with what ever segment of the manosphere they deem to have issues with to clear the air.
Ciaran @15 thinks answering mangina talking points on J4G has value, and makes a serious argument here:
“I don’t see it that way. If we want to crawl out of this rabbit hole and engage the world, we are going to be facing those talking points every day, stated a lot more aggressively and a lot less politely than lurker did. We need to prepare our talking point responses.”
With respect, and as a long-time vet of the political wars, no. In fact – hell, no.
Ignore the talking points, and focus on concrete ways men can improve their lives as men and their sexual success, while building off-internet relationships as Batistat has been pointing out.
That’s it. That’s the Grail. Execute it, and the talking points just. will. not. matter. With respect, you’re mistaking the menu for the food here.
It would take a long post to explain, but I’ve been thinking about this for many years, and if you adopt the approach you’re suggesting, you’ll throw away the greatest strengths of The Red Pill and become as lame as standard conservative media.
You do not want to descend to that standard. I say this as someone who is not a leftist.
But if you execute well, the political organization will happen by itself. Usually as auxiliaries in others’ emergent fights (along the lines of GamerGate) – and if they’ve been training as I suggested, they will have the effect of growing the Red Pill Community by recruiting the people they fight alongside into it. Be lovers, and the fighters will come.
I think the PUAs are the only guys with the answers. They teach guys how to improve their looks first and foremost and then their attitude – to get women. How to win (girl) friends and influence people, basically. For guys that don’t want girlfriends for whatever reason, low libido or just like being single, they don’t have to listen to PUAs. But I think a HUGE part of the bitterness you see amongst men in the Manosphere is because they have not gotten laid or are not getting laid nearly as much as they would like, but whom they would like to. This creates a negative feedback loop and before you know it they are resenting women for not wanting them and women pick up on that and gravitate instead to the good looking guys with a love of women, like that other guys talked about.
So I would say – go the PUA route and failing that – BECOME AN OPINION JOURNALIST who writes about “mens’ issues” where you CAN talk about the boys killed by Boko Haram and all the atrocities meted out to boys and men globally.
Opinion Journalism, by the way, is the next wave in journalism so go for it!
But if you are just going to gripe about “women and the SMP” I think it would be better to join a PUA bootcamp or two (or 3 or 4) or however many it takes until FINALLY you get a girlfriend who can put an end to your griping.
where you CAN talk about the boys killed by Boko Haram and all the atrocities meted out to boys and men globally.
1st) IMO PUAs do more damage than help.
2nd) No you couldn’t talk about men’s issues globally except possible on the internet in about the same capacity as the manosphere – a tiny minority. This is because those that enforce the FI would shut you down, and no one with connections would pick you up to begin with.
3rd) Whats happening in Nigeria and many other parts of the world isn’t opinion. These are facts. I don’t know what motivates other guys, but I have a wife and a son. Also, I have friends and I don’t want their kids to get screwed over like my friends did. Sadly, for some of the kids it’s too late.
ADBG, I’m sorry to hear of your suffering. But I don’t see how Feminism could be attributed. You speak of being deeply depressed as a teen, crying a lot, crying in public, not being helped, etc. But Feminism doesn’t teach that “boys don’t cry” – an old archaic “masculinity” model does. Nobody helped you because they were working under that model that “boys are tough” or at least “should be”.
There’s a few “he-man” projection type comments right here on this blog who would probably call you a “pussy” but I doubt a Feminist would.
Also, you might consider that that crazy idea about “masculinity” that “boys don’t/shouldn’t cry” might have been what prevented you from opening to others about your feelings (what is called “feeeeeeewwwwiiiiiinnnngsss” in the Manosphere.
I don’t see how this could be blamed on Feminism or women?
However there is a link between Depression and the fiasco of Gamergate. A female gamer created a game “Depression Quest” and many male gamers who suffer from depression but feel SHAME over it started giving her death threats and rape threats!!!
You see, its so hard for those gamer guys to even admit that they are depressed and probably want to try her game, but they feel SHAME so…”uh, lets dox her and threaten her with death and rape”.
You’d think they’d feel commorarderie with a fellow depression sufferer and expess EMPATHY instead of blood lust.
But no. That’s how far that damn rabbit hole goes.
Obsidian, I mostly lurk here because the psychological perspective is interesting, but I’m not sure I have much to contribute on most topics given my optimistic outlook and general contentment with life.
The most useful element of the red pill for me was that it’s “okay” to be self interested and value myself; and that I shouldn’t apologize for pursuing my own life. I don’t know if it’s fair to generalize, but I think a lot of guys probably take up the role of provider easily but at the same time let that role become who they they are – becoming somewhat like a directionless boat churning away without a rudder. Red Pill makes obvious the importance of being our own rudder.
I guess my main area of disjoint w/ prevailing manosphere anti-feminism narratives is that I fault men as much as anyone for the state of things. In my completely humble opinion based on limited life experience: men need to understand how we contribute to the state of affairs and how we contribute to it.
For some reason the above made me think abut a famous book on the stock market trading psychology called Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom by Van Tharpe. He talks about that as a trader, it is critical that I internalize that everything that happens to me in the market happens because I actively bring it about. It’s all on me. I can’t blame anybody else for the outcomes. If I lose money on a trade, it’s because of a decision I made – not anything the market is actively doing to me. What happens in a trade begins and ends with me.
Similarly, I find narratives lacking that fixate on external factors while giving short shrift to how men help create their own relationship situations. Again, I reiterate that I am optimistic and content with my life – and I perhaps am fortunate that my wife is the fine woman she is, who is always on my side despite my shortcomings – but I also am quite certain that things could be very different had I selected differently. Too often I see it written here that guys who achieve successful and fulfilling relationships/marriages are dismissed as “lucky.” In my humble opinion – at a deeper level there’s likely far more to it than luck – and much of that difference is within mens’ control.
As speculation, there’s probably a lot to be gained by men in being critical of our own natures, and taking control of that. Blaming women for being women deflects the core issue. (It’s probably similar to women wondering why they like bad boys). Understanding why we are attracted to women that end up being incompatible, or “no good”, or seems to be behind the frustration for many of the posts here, even though it’s not expressed as such. I find it likely that men are not biologically wired to be good at selecting well for long term relationships – so extra attention needs be given to this aspect of our nature. It may require more self-control than men can muster though.
But I’m middle-aged, maybe out of touch, so take it all with an additional grain of salt.
Obsidian and Ciaran,
Looks like our “creepy stalkeress” J has reported back to Giggles on the goings on here, and the convo taking place. For what it is worth (not much IMO) both of you have seemed to have their full approval and thumbs up for what you are trying to do although I’m still not sure exactly what that is.
I would point this out to you in terms of deleting comments and/or banning commenters. BOTH OF YOU were banned from HUS for essentially stating matters of factual nature that shined a spotlight on things best hidden from view from their perspective. O, with you, it was highlighting the bullshit about “ethics” with Sassy’s dating habits. Ciaran, with you, it was highlighting that female-female relationships tend to break up more as well indicating the problem in breakups usually lies on the female side. In both cases, you guys were banned essentially because these were unpleasant facts to acknowledge. There has been a steady progression of heavier and heavier handed censorship for even the most minute perception of a transgression.
That is the problem with censorship and exercising the power to censor. It is inherently corrupting because once you go down that path, the temptation to use it more and more becomes overwhelming. That is why I am loath to censor even in the case of comments I find offensive or that I think are not helpful to the discussion or forward progress.
I actually think we do a good job of self-policing here.
There are competing visions here. They can coexist but you can’t have one group trying to browbeat the other. I think one vision is the “Sovereign Man” concept coined by BV. I think myself, Yohami, Bastiat Blogger, BV obviously, Ted D, etc. adhere to this vision. Essentially, the world is what it is, now how does an individual man structure his life and make mating decisions based on the world that is. I think the other vision is what Ciaran believes in, which is that a community of men is more important than a man becoming a sovereign man, and how do we change things in society to make it more man friendly. I see nothing wrong with that vision, but it is not my cup of tea.
Since you are following this, I will say J you are a sad, pathetic woman. There is a certain level of cowardice in actively reading these threads and then posting your responses elsewhere where there is no opportunity to respond since your buddy Giggles won’t allow it. You are a busybody instigator, but I suppose you have much free time on your hands. You should spend less time reading JFG and probably a bit more time exercising. Here is my free tip to you that has helped me drop 35 pounds the last year….interval cardio training will help you lose that stubborn chunkiness you have had problems with. Giggles might even be able to hook you up smart with a top trainer unless she no longer has access to his expertise.
Someone asked where are the other 3 guys. I have been somewhat absent from posting. To some extent, I’ve been living what I preached. I’ve been working out 5-6 days a week religiously to get back to my old physique. I crossed paths with an old co-worker (woman) who I haven’t seen in many months and when she saw me she said “Wow, you are looking good”. I can say that I am getting more IOIs. So seriously, every single guy who is somewhat frustrated, first damn thing you have to do is begin a serious exercise program. You will feel better about yourself, you will look better, and that will spill over to other things.
There is a way to co-exist with different visions, and there is a way to have quality commenting that doesn’t rely on being a dictator banning people and deleting comments. We will see how it goes.
Admins —
I have to say, when there are obvious cranks posting, like #53, it causes me concern. There is debate, and then there is leaving the place wide open to feminist talking points, which is what we see in 53: any issue you have is with patriarchal masculinity, and not the fact that this has been denigrated in the popular culture, and therefore only is capable of being expressed in a caricature-esque way. This is a feminist talking point, and is nonsense.
People who suffer from depression are depressed. The fricking boring video game (yes I have seen it) will help no depressed gamer. Zoe suffers from massive delusions of grandeur about that, perhaps based on her number of nude selfies. But, in any case, if a person who plays video games is clinically depressed, then get help. The Zoe-Quest garbage is not an answer, and never will be, for men.
Boys should not cry, barring extraordinary circumstances. The issue isn’t that boys should be bawling like they are girls, but that when boys DO feel compelled to cry, in very extenuating circumstances, they should get support. It should be acknowledged that in some very, very limited circumstances — like chronic depression, death of a family member — a man may need to cry and should have proper male support for that. Otherwise … no, men should not cry at a drop of a hat. At least not het/straight/cishet men.
Someone asked where are the other 3 guys. I have been somewhat absent from posting.
All good reasons. But you guys all need to sort this out. The 4 guys.
“Boys should not cry, barring extraordinary circumstances. The issue isn’t that boys should be bawling like they are girls, but that when boys DO feel compelled to cry, in very extenuating circumstances, they should get support. It should be acknowledged that in some very, very limited circumstances — like chronic depression, death of a family member — a man may need to cry and should have proper male support for that. Otherwise … no, men should not cry at a drop of a hat. At least not het/straight/cishet men.”
This reminds me of an anecdote my husband told me after returning from a hunting trip this weekend. A guy they call ‘the General’ (he was a two or three star in the army long ago, now in his 70s) and his son, whom they call ‘Hoss’ were there. These are huge, very rugged, guys. Hoss talked about his childhood and shared an anecdote about father giving him the exact parameters for where he was permitted to bike around the block. One day, he decided to defy those parameters and just keep on riding down the next block. And he had the bad luck to be struck by a car. He said he was sprawled out on the pavement and the lady who hit him was crying and asking if he was alright. But all he could see was his father’s car driving up and parking next to the curb, then getting out and walking over looking like the terminator.
His dad looked at the woman’s bumper and said, “Ma’am, I am terribly sorry my son hit your car with his bike”. They he lifted the bike in one hand and him by his belt in the other and carried them to his car and said, “You think that car hurt?” The story was told in a humorous manner, of course.
Gamergate,
“EMPATHY”
Women have no empathy for weak men.
Feminism promotes that men should be allowed to be weak. It also shames manly men.
The result is that feminism pushes men down, and then women naturally stomp over their bodies.
Morpheus,
“I think the other vision is what Ciaran believes in, which is that a community of men is more important than a man becoming a sovereign man, and how do we change things in society to make it more man friendly. ”
More power to beta men who want to join and get strength by numbers.
The moment this becomes “sovereign man shaming” I’ll fight the shit out of it, and it already did.
The moment this becomes “sovereign man shaming” I’ll fight the shit out of it, and it already did.
I’d say: (i) that is directed only towards men who are not capable of becoming “responsibly sovereign” (and begging what that means, I agree) and (ii) the bigger issue is that there won’t be a huge community of men in the broader culture, so there will always be plenty of space cor sovereign men.
@Morpheus #55,
That is the problem with censorship and exercising the power to censor. It is inherently corrupting because once you go down that path, the temptation to use it more and more becomes overwhelming. That is why I am loath to censor even in the case of comments I find offensive or that I think are not helpful to the discussion or forward progress.
I actually think we do a good job of self-policing here.
I agree. Since I’ve had mod power, I think I’ve deleted only two comments, and both were by flaming trolls. I’ve added a few “Editor’s notes” requesting people cut the racist bullshit or other overtly insulting language. Other than that, the comments have been unmolested by me.
Although these last two posts have been contentious, I am glad we are having this conversation. As for myself, I have a strong but as yet unfocused desire to “do something”, and these conversations with input from many parties is helping me understand what type of things can be done here, and which are better done elsewhere.
In particular, I will take my aspirations to political activism elsewhere. That has to be done IRL, non-anonymously, and the J4G connection is not likely to be an asset and almost certainly likely to be a liability in that context. To change that would require a massive re-orientation of what J4G is about and also the massive purge that some of you anticipate, neither of which I want.
On the other hand, J4G is a good place for explorations of sexual-social dynamics that are too contentious to discuss in other forums.
I think the other vision is what Ciaran believes in, which is that a community of men is more important than a man becoming a sovereign man, and how do we change things in society to make it more man friendly.
And that is also best done IRL, non-anonymously. While that will remain my focus, it is not something I will actively pursue here.
Ciaran’s plan would work injunction with bringing back old school Patriarchy which most folks here seem to oppose. Other wise it is pure subjugation of men
My marriage was ruined because I listened ro what amounts to BABB advice.
Our boys are not thriving because they are not pushed toward greatness. Instead they are told to lay up be…. allright.
I have taken 6 platoons worth of beta millennial men down range and this babb thing does them a disservice nor does it address the greater issues.
I am the living example of so called of toxic masculinity and yet my life is full of masculine joy which comes from achieving and over coming hardcore shit
Obs you hurl around the most racist invectives around here; you use the term cracker which isn’t an expression of love. When those urban youth tried to run me off the road, cracker was their go to racial slur.
Men should not cry, others need your strength
The current system needs a little burning down, maybe more then a little. A solid objective would be how to teach men to navigate the various minefields and roll back feminism where they can, but I guess J4G’s would rather capitulate to the FI then fight it
Ciaran’s plan would work injunction with bringing back old school Patriarchy which most folks here seem to oppose.
Not me, I’m for it. IMO patriarchy is the best known system to utilize the strengths and weaknesses of men and women together in a society.
I’m an infrequent commenter but I will say that I’m more aligned with Ted D and would prefer an unmoderated J4G. The only reason to change would be if you are trying to grow the blog and IMO that is simply pandering to the mean. What is discussed on this blog and other ‘sphere sites is not fit for mainstream consumption because it is counter to the current narrative of society.
To quote a little used line from the Matrix, all the ‘sphere is offering is the truth, nothing more. What one does with that knowledge is up to them.
Nova,
“directed only towards men who are not capable of becoming “responsibly sovereign” ”
That’s fine. My issue is that the toxic masculinity shaming is included in the message.
I was downrange in Afghanistan for a year in three months, fighting the enemy. Shortly beforehand I began dating a girl I had known for some time. Everything was a fairy tale for the five short months I had with her before I was shipped of to the sandbox. For the first few months while there, things were fine. Strained, frustrating at times, but overall just fine. Around 9 weeks in she began to get flakey. Didn’t want to skype, didn’t care to talk, didn’t seem interested in interacting. Even when I was going through severe emotional trauma, she didn’t particularly seem to give a shit. At 22, and plugged in to the Matrix, I did what I had always been taught to do: give more.
It must be my fault, I figured. I must be doing something wrong. So I showered her in affection. Gifts, terms of endearment, constantly affirming and validating her. Still she pulled away. I couldn’t understand it. What was wrong? She wouldn’t tell me. Three weeks of this before she finally drops the hammer to let me know something I should have seen coming, and indeed would have if I had taken the Red Pill: she was cheating on me. With two guys. One of whom she’s “in love with”.
Needless to say I was devastated. Couldn’t handle it for a few days. Couldn’t understand it. Wanted–needed–answers. Finally found them when my father sent me a copy of The Rational Male.
Now I’m not here to fawn over Rollo and fanboy for him. It’s simply to say that if I had read the “New, Improved,” J4G version of what had happened, I would still be wondering. All those harsh truths have saved me countless heartaches and headaches, and I think you owe it to the men and boys you’re trying to educate to give them the real truth. Good medicine tastes bad. But it works.
As far as censoring posts and being afraid of people being inflammatory or offended,
“The wise man cannot be insulted; the truth cannot insult, and untruth is not worth listening to.”
I’m not sure. I have never been a parent and have never been responsible for raising a kid. That’s in a totally different ballpark from my experience. That’s major leagues and I’m still playing tee-ball.
Ciaran and ton and BB might have more insight. They actually work with young boys and men, from what I understand.
Re: what my parents could have done.Well, that’s a kicker, ain’t it? They were pretty constrained in their options. I was a particularly willful, stubborn child, and still am. I take criticism just fine, but I take advice about as often as I volunteer for latrine duty, LOL.
I have some ideas. But, first, I’m a special kid, right? There are some guys like me, but not a lot, and problems affecting me, do not affect the vast majority of men out there.
I needed a gang and a mission. I had none of that in school. Just didn’t. By the time I hit 10 I just couldn’t connect with “normal” kids anymore. But I also didn’t do any homework or studying and they would’t put me in classes wtih the smart kids, either. And I didn’t have kids to hang out with in my neighborhood anyways, and my parents mother was deathly afraid of me cycling to any nearby neighborhoods.
What could they have done….I guess actually encourage things that interested me. I am a deeply intellectual kid, but they didn’t do much to encourage that. take me to the library to read books? Nope. Take me to meet interesting people? Nope.
Wasn’t until I was, say, 17 that all thet teachers for the gifted programs started noticing me, and actually took me to some interesting places, started recommending books, etc. That I also started forming SOME durable friendships. ETc.
“Do you have any advice for parents with struggling sons? Where did your parents fail? What would you do differently?”
My parents failed by not listening to me, and by cocooning themselves inside a worldview that was rapidly disappearing by the time I was hitting my teen years. They didn’t know anything about the sexual and marriage marketplaces they were sending their children into. Consequently, they did nothing to prepare us for it, because they couldn’t. Mom and Dad, however, chose that — they chose to close their eyes and ears to everything going on around them. They also chose not to listen to me, because I was telling them what was happening, and they refused to believe me. They chose the “be nice, be yourself” advice that is a nonstarter and a complete failure in today’s world.
Advice to parents with struggling sons:
1. Stay married. If for no other reason, Dad stays married to mom so Dad can have unfettered access to his sons so he can take a primary role in training them.
2. Dad educates son about the ways of the world, about girls and sex and attraction and so forth. Dad needs to do this, PRIVATELY and away from mom and other girls. For all the good they can do for their children, mothers cannot make their sons into men. Moms also cannot hold forth about what it means to be a man.
Moms also are utterly unable to help boys with the truth about what is attractive to girls. (Whenever you ask a mom about what girls like, they invariably answer that girls like “nice” boys. They never talk about how girls like confident guys who have some influence and who have their shit somewhat together. This, of course, is the prime source of pedestalization and supplication that we see so much of.)
3. Dad, stand firm that you, not Mom, will handle training the sons. Mom, stand down on this.
Which would you rather happen? Your son gets his shit straight when he’s 14 or 15 or so? Or that he doesn’t get it figured out until he’s around 40 and having a divorce stick rammed up his nether regions, you lose access to your grandchildren, and your son lives in poverty and isolation?
4. Listen to your sons about what they are seeing and hearing. Believe them. BELIEVE THEM. Take what they say at face value and based on what they report. A 12 or 13 or 14 year old boy is just going to report what he sees and hears and does. He doesn’t have filters, he isn’t fully “socialized”, and what you’re hearing from him is going to be less distorted than what you would see or hear.
@66 to men like Carian masculinity is toxic. You can tell by the words he uses and I am opposed to all who think masculinity equals toxicity
@67 lol I think we were in the A-stan at the same time
@Lyn M 16: I may be wrong, but I think a lot of those problems may be linked more to the recklessness and immaturity of youths before the age of 25 than to their gender; prefrontal cortex not having been fully-formed yet. That’s not just physiological mumbo-jumbo, there’s alot of research conducted into that (e.g. before it’s developed, young pple tend to lack impulse control and effective long-term planning), and personally at 26 I’m mentally and emotionally VERY different from how I was in my late teens and early 20s. I’d been blessed with many advantages, but from around 17 I started displaying self-destructive behaviour, and from 20-24 my life was a total mess, due mainly to serious self-inflicted problems. It was due to a wealth of resilience built up from 2 decades of a great life and all the positive reinforcements, high self-efficacy etc that came with it, which allowed me to overcome the problems and be a happy healthy person again.
This taught me that the formative years are so important. The role of the parents is really crucial, they will be the child’s first role models. The school envt, the type of friends they have etc, all these will affect youths and affect what kinda people they grow into, and mould the way they deal with problems that they encounter in adulthood.
In your anecdotes, the young ladies have turned out fine whereas the boys have not, but I think that may mainly be coincidental. But it could indeed partly be due to gender reasons. For eg parents may be more watchful and protective of daughters.
@SfcTon It’s possible. June13-Sep14?
to men like Carian masculinity is toxic. You can tell by the words he uses and I am opposed to all who think masculinity equals toxicity.
Some toxins are tolerable in small doses, and may even be beneficial. I don’t think masculinity is toxic, but your version is. It is tolerable, even beneficial in small doses. But I wouldn’t want to live in a society full of SfcTon clones.
@Alana #71,
In your anecdotes, the young ladies have turned out fine whereas the boys have not, but I think that may mainly be coincidental. But it could indeed partly be due to gender reasons. For eg parents may be more watchful and protective of daughters.
I don’t think it’s coincidental. Take a look at these books. And there are a lot more like them.
Why Boys Fail: Saving Our Sons from an Educational System That’s Leaving Them Behind by Richard Whitmire
The Trouble with Boys: A Surprising Report Card on Our Sons, Their Problems at School, and What Parents and Educators Must Do by Peg Tyre
Boys Adrift: The Five Factors Driving the Growing Epidemic of Unmotivated Boys and Underachieving Young Men by Leonard Sax
The Minds of Boys: Saving Our Sons From Falling Behind in School and Life by Michael Gurian
The Purpose of Boys: Helping Our Sons Find Meaning, Significance, and Direction in Their Lives Paperback by Michael Gurian
The War Against Boys: How Misguided Policies are Harming Our Young Men Hardcover by Christina Hoff Sommers
Apparently the words “Too Late” are too offensive to the delicate eyes of the readers emailing O about the tone here.
“Sure, you’ll be able to argue that it was the nutters who kept you from doing so, or what you perceive to be the wrongheaded thinking on the part of myself or the other writers here – but, so long as said nutters had the full run of the house, I for one will fully concede that you had a point.”
FWIW, I haven’t really seen any ‘nuttery’ on this blog yet (unless I forgot)–just different perspectives, occasional contentiousness, some rudeness or trolling, but not nuttery. And like most pple I agree that deleting comments should be a v v rare thing. Plus most of the guys here are on the same side, basically, so it’s a shame to see splintering when you may already be in the minority in society.
Why don’t you guys just tell the truth that your vision (apparently excluding the other 3 guys) is to have J4G be an affiliate blog of AVfM?
And the only way to initiate that is to align the ‘tone’ of the blog to fit their anti-red pill narrative by going Purple. MRAs tolerate the red pill insofar as it puts eyes on their homepage, but where the rubber meets the road they may as well be PUAHate (now SLUTHate.com).
@Ciaran 74: Thanks, I’ll be sure to check some of those out. I was basing what I said mainly on my own limited observations/experiences in my own country, and it could indeed be true that certain policies or the education system in the US are leaving the males disadvantaged.
@LynM
You raise a good question – one that needs to be answered on a societal level. I will do my best to answer you based on my understanding and research (though some may disagree with me). Sorry in advance for the long post.
It all comes down to the question of temperament in personality. People are born hard-wired to base their decisions on their sense of Feeling – but some individuals introvert their feeling (called Fi) and some extrovert it (called Fe). Individuals whose introverted feeling is dominant (Fi-Doms) naturally base their decisions and judgments on their own feelings. In other words, they only want to do what THEY want to do, not what other people (or society) tell them they should want. These are the kids who don’t like to sit still in school and would rather go out and play, and hate the fact that they have to sit at a desk all day and be dictated to by a teacher.
People whose extroverted feeling is dominant (Fe-Doms) naturally base their decisions and judgments on the feelings and values of OTHERS, and feel most comfortable when doing so. These are the kids who naturally sit still in school all day and readily absorb messages from the teacher. They are most likely to follow a societally-approved script, go to university, get married, and live life as they are told they should.
A person’s propensity to be Fi-Dominant or Fe-Dominant is inborn into their temperament. It is what makes “alphas” naturally alpha, and “betas” naturally beta.
Now here’s the kicker. The majority of females are Fe-Doms. Men have about a 50-50 split in Fi vs. Fe dominance. This fact explains EVERYTHING about the problems that men and boys face – it explains the problems of alpha and beta attraction, and it explains the problems of why boys are not doing well at school and the whole “end of men” phenomenon. If I had the platform I could write a book on it.
Fe-Dominant females naturally do 2 things that allow them to succeed from an early age: 1) They naturally fit in to the school environment (and thus their early childhood is usually happy and well-adjusted), and 2) they naturally form several close friendships (and that emotional closeness also helps make them better adjusted).
Fi-Dominant males have several disadvantages in the current environment: 1) They do not naturally fit in to the school environment, and thus spend their early formative years doing something un-natural and un-enjoyable each and every day. This can not help but lead to negativity. 2) They do not naturally form close friendships to others – they may have friends with whom they do things, but not friends in whom they confide. Now, some people may say that this is the problem feminists want to address – that men should be more like women and show their emotions. But here’s the thing….most men don’t want more male friends to confide in. What they want is a GIRLFRIEND to confide in. 3) As Fi-Doms, they need to WANT something in order to strive to get it, and what they want needs to be obtainable. For example, most young teenage boys want girlfriends. But most girls that age are not attracted to most boys that age. Thus, the boys live in a constant state of being thwarted. Now, in days goneby, teachers would realize what boys wanted and would give them a life-script: Study hard, do well in school, and you will get a job. That job will attract women, and thus you will get what you want. Ergo boys worked hard, followed the script, and lo and behold they eventually attracted women who were looking for marriage and security.
But in today’s environment, women do not need providers. As is so commonly stated in the manosphere, in today’s society women want Alpha, not Beta. Thus, there is no guarantee that a man following the script will ever get what he wants. So why should he do it? What’s in it for him?
An Fe-Dominant woman will not ask that question – she won’t even think to ask it (neither, BTW, will an Fe-Dominant man). They will follow the script because society lays it out for them. But an Fi-Dominant person will not do it unless they see benefit to themselves.
Feminism removes the incentive for men to follow the old script, and hasn’t replaced it with anything. If all women want is alpha, most men will never get what they want, and so have no incentive to work or succeed. And when hope is lost, vice sets in – drugs, alcohol, video games, porn addiction, etc.
What is the solution? Is the solution sex-segregated schools? I don’t think so. Removing girls might allow classes to be more tailored to boy’s likes (make things more physical, more abstract, more competitive, etc), but ultimately does not give boys what they need – A reason, an incentive, something in it for THEM, to follow the script.
What should that reason be? For as long as civilization has existed, that incentive was the companionship of a woman who would be attracted to his providership. That is now gone. Ciaran has posted that he hopes the incentive could be the companionship/fellowship of men. Maybe there might be something to this.
But as long as being a boy is more fun/attractive than being a man – as long as men are dis-incentivized from growing up – men who are Fi-Dominant will not see a reason to put in the work. Hence perpetual adolescence and vice.
yea bro but as a contractor. My 15 month army tour was like 09-10. Track me down on my blog if you want to shoot the shit.
Yes giving boys a gang and a mission is the key but the mission has to push his limits in the areas he is naturally gifted. I could not help a boy who is more up for mental challenges like business or art because frankly he’ll out pace me quickly, but young boys almost all want to be supper heroes. Make him one. Teach him to fight, ride, shoot and scout. trust him to do things our womanish society thinks is age inappropriate. Tell him your mission for him is to be the boss
@73 me either but our society is way to soft, way to feminized and basically stay that way is what you are preaching
Link to Ton’s site (since I don’t see any hotspots on your handle, Ton)
http://tonsplace.wordpress.com
That came out wrong.
lol
…and the comment deletion continues, guess the truth hurts.
Enjoy your echo chamber, you’ve had the best teacher for it.
“The moment this becomes “sovereign man shaming” I’ll fight the shit out of it, and it already did.”
This exactly. I get the feeling that increasingly the tone here is going this direction, and I’m not good with that.
I have absolutely no problem with Ciaran’s POV. My problem is this idea that he shouldn’t tolerate opinions that don’t jive with his simply because they aren’t helpful. My thinking is: tough shit. IF your ideas are sound, they’ll make it through all the noise and buzz and perhaps some of those dissenters might have a valid point. I don’t have to have a counter solution to tell someone their ideas suck. Now just saying “that sucks” is useless, but it is a gauge of receptiveness of the ideas to others. That being said, most of the folks here saying “that sucks” state exactly why they think it sucks, so I don’t understand the animosity. Again, if I think your idea sucks, and I tell you why I think they suck, I DO NOT owe you a counter solution. Truth is, in many cases I may think the idea sucks because the goal of it is pointless. So tell me, why would I have a counter solution?
But as it goes, I’ve seen many men here state clearly why it sucks AND present a counter. Thing is, that counter doesn’t resolve into the “ideal goal” of the particular OP so it’s discarded as “useless”. I have a problem with that.
So from my POV the solution is the Sovereign Man concept. So I understand it is incompatible with BABB. The thing is, repeating that IS my point. I want anyone coming here for the first time and reading a BABB post that there are other ways. I get that us regulars get tired of the broken record, but anyone coming here shiny and new may not know the old arguments. And that being the case, I wouldn’t want them to come here and decide it’s all about BABB simply because those posts don’t allow dissent.
That doesn’t mean I don’t want the BABB plan out there for discussion, or that I look down on men going that route. It does however mean that I will continue to be a voice of dissent on it, as I feel it is necessary to present both sides of that equation so men can decide for themselves.
I basically agree with Ted & Morpheus.
Obsidian, I’m not opposed to any of the points you’re raising, but I’m very against the idea of mass censorship.
Further, I always thought the point of the blog was to feature all of the unique perspectives of its founders, along with guest posters. I’d hate to see one perspective essentially browbeat the others into submission, especially without any consultation.
“…and the comment deletion continues”
Obsidian?
Well we certainly have an over-representation of Fi (introverts) here, which may explain the backlash to,what appears to be a ver Fe concept.
And yes, as an introvert the first question I ask when told I must do something is: “what’s in it for me?” Does that make me antisocial? Yep. That and so many other things.
But I’m perfectly content being a selfish antisocial prick. I wear the mask well and use it to get what I want and need for my family. My co-workers would tell you I was a nice guy that will help out in a pinch. Thing is, I help out for my benefit, not to be “nice” at all. It’s a neat trick getting others to believe those actions are altruistic.
So yeah, all this BABB for society stuff sticks in my craw. If an Fe guy wants to tackle it, I say go nuts. But don’t tell me it’s the best/only way to go, because you know what’s coming? “What’s in it for me?”
I’ll have to come back later but the discussion here is fascinating to say the least and I for one, would hate to see any of the voices here depart. Even the obvious trolls who are just here to throw a monkey wrench in the machine because they have nothing better to do. Trolls and jackazzzes only appear when you’re doing good work, so I say let them stay but just point them out.
I know, I know..easy for me to say because I’m not running the site, but if you never have any critics or any dissent, you need to ask yourself what you’re doing wrong. Nobody agrees on or with everything all the time–people are gonna disagree.
But let me say this because I have to run and it’s about an issue that plagues modern day men: Far too many men today aren’t being prepared for the harsh realities of life. If you’re a soldier, you need to be told from the jump that being 5000 miles away from these women raised on “Sex and the City” and all this other CRAP written by hacks in the media that celebrates sluts and tramps, ain’t gonna end well. Nobody tells men the truth anymore. No whores for wives or girlfriends–EVER. keep them on the outside looking in.
“But Kid, all these women are whores today.” BULLSHYT. There are decent women out here but you have to be willing to keep it real and not chase or reward low-grade PUSSY. You have to be a man that makes SACRIFICES and doesn’t try to turn a whore into a housewife. Smart, sexy women who aren’t down with bed hopping or chasing every crank walking the neighborhood do exist, but you can’t dance with the devil and then complain about the fourth degree burns when the flames consume you.
I know that I ain’t about to kill myself because some judge says that I have to pay lifetime alimony to some slutty chick. GTFOH. I’ll just smile sweetly and nod, but then some woman will be dodging a hail of bullets if that shyt ever happens. I’ll go to jail first but I am not about to kill anybody but that judge and any woman who thinks that she’s gonna be slick and rape me financially for the rest of my life because she wants to slut it up. Phuck that.
Jeremy – thanks for contributing. Even when I don’t agree with you, I always appreciate your perspective. And for what it’s worth I agree with you must of the time. Not sure how that reflects on you. Lol
Obsidian, I’m not opposed to any of the points you’re raising, but I’m very against the idea of mass censorship.
Who and why are Rollo’s comments disappearing?
(Editor’s note): Because he refuses to do as asked-offer constructive comments. That doesn’t mean “agree with me”-it means making civil, reasoned arguments. Others in this thread, including you for the most part, ate doing just that, and I’m carefully considering all everyone is saying. But Rollo simply refuses to participate that way. It’s counter productive and doesn’t advance the discussion in any good way. Which is sad…
@Ted D, thanks.
Just to clarify, though, just because a person is dominant in Fi doesn’t make him an introvert. It just means that his feeling is introverted. Depending on the first function in his function stack and its orientation, he may be introverted or not in his actual social orientation. For example, a person with the stack Se-Fi-Te-Ni (which would be an ESFP personality) is extroverted in social orientation, but bases his judgments on introverted feeling – if that makes sense to you?
An alpha is Fi-dominant and prioritizes his FEELINGS. A beta is Fe-dominant and prioritizes his ROLE. The beta is not naturally obsequious – he is naturally a sensitive and caring person who prioritizes the feelings of others and acts to benefit a group/family. In a rational society, this would be a good thing and would be rewarded and protected by good laws. In a society gone crazy due to overzealous feminism, the societal role of men has been so denigrated and disrespected that the Fe-dominant beta can not respect himself because he is not respected by others.
We can either teach him to act more Fi-Dominant (up the Alpha), or to get him to re-imagine his role – but that would be more difficult to do without a structure of others to support it, a woman who respects it, and a society that protects it legally.
Jeremy – it makes some sense. I want to get more into personality characteristics, but what I do know mostly relates to my very INTJ nature. For being a minority, we’ve attracted a large number of my type here. So perhaps the most vocal audience at J4G simply isn’t cut out for political activism. I know for me it is all too much bother for little reward. Because when I ask myself what’s in it for me, I come up with zilch.
My beef is this idea that those who don’t want to go that route don’t want to help. That’s pure BS. I would help any man I met that showed the initiative to do what it takes. I simply won’t tell them how to do it. Instead, I’d show them the options and let them decide for themselves. IMO, saving one man from beta misery ending in divorce and losing his family is far and away more “noble” than a thousand man march on DC. The funny thing is: I truly believe some men should go and march. But don’t make it out to be the “right” way to do the job.
Personally, I think Han, Obs, Nem, Ted + Ciaran and Deti and *definitely Rollo as well* should have an offline discussion about this whole thing. I think it’s better for you guys to privately sort things out in terms of J4G’s editorial slant and format (i.e., without having the performative, misunderstanding-heavy/high school drama-type problems that inevitably come along with doing this in front of an audience).
@Bastiat,
I think it’s better for you guys to privately sort things out in terms of J4G’s editorial slant and format (i.e., without having the performative, misunderstanding-heavy/high school drama-type problems that inevitably come along with doing this in front of an audience).
What, and deprive everyone of a good shit-show?
@TedD
I have absolutely no problem with Ciaran’s POV. My problem is this idea that he shouldn’t tolerate opinions that don’t jive with his simply because they aren’t helpful.
Peace, brother. I’m not here to rain on your parade. I’ve got something I want to do, and I need to find another place to do it. This isn’t the right place.
“Personally, I think Han, Obs, Nem, Ted + Ciaran and Deti and *definitely Rollo as well* should have an offline discussion about this whole thing.”
Personally such a conversation should have happened prior. Again, I checked out for some time due to real life issues, and discussion of admin and ownership changes had been ongoing. But that process isn’t complete, which means for better or worse our names are on all this for now. And, as long as that is the case, a heads up is warranted IMO.
But look on the bright side: free advertisement is still free, and it seems all this drama is entertaining. Hell “the blog of which we do not speak” is supposedly chatting us up right now! I hope the popcorn is tasty.
I had been meaning to comment on the BaBB post but spent more time thinking and writing, so didn’t. Most of the thoughts there kept leading to what ultimately happened with this post. I disagree with the alpha/beta dichotomy and many of the results of this line of thinking. There are some very different views on the subjects we discuss (actually, you all discuss, I mostly just read) but we have to keep in sight the main thing – we are all on the same side. This is something that The Social Pathologist points out on his blog and is the crux of the entire matter. If we are going to be destroyed, it isn’t the feminists that will do it, but internal fragmentation. What we are all doing here is “vangardism”. We are the small group that is hashing things out and leading the way of what will hopefully become a mass movement in the coming decades. How we handle disagreements now is what will determine if the revolution is good or bad. When the leftists started taking political power it was not just them vs the ancien regime or the rightists. The Bolsheviks fought the Menshiviks, Social Democrats, Moderate Socialists, Anarchists, etc, and then even the Bolsheviks under Stalin fought those under Trotsky. In Fourth Generation Warfare, the powerful insurgencies have many differing goals, but at least one that they can agree upon. The PUAs, MGTOWs, MRAs, Masculinists, Alt-Righter’s, Neoreactionaires all have the same great enemy – the Progressivists that spawned the demonic womb-turds of feminism, race-baiters, pink mafia, etc. Obsidian, I highly doubt that you have been paid off by huffpuff or are turning into a red-pill in name only, but you do have to ask if what you do may unintentionally cause a division. I think that you genuinely want to get more useful feedback and less “women are dumb” comments, but you also have to recognize that if we are going to start the world, we have to take these guys who have been burned and give them something constructive to do. Being someone else who has no time for them and their very real pain is not going to get anything constructive. Hell, I wonder how many school shootings the manosphere at large has averted because for just once these men and boys are finding out that they aren’t freaks and they aren’t alone. Rollo’s blog is pretty much where I unplugged, and it frakking hurts. It hurts a lot. Unplugging is one of the more unpleasant things you will do, but it is only then when the scales have been lifted form your eyes that you can see a way forward.
And thus concludes my block of text.
LynM@16, ultimately those young men have to take responsibility for their own personal choices to use and sell drugs. People like to get high, some get addicted. In many cases it really is nothing more than that.
“Men should not cry, others need your strength”
Please go back and read comment #28 by A Definite Beta Guy posted on October 26, 2014 at 9:01 pm.
In light of all he suffered, would you still hold that he “should not have cried”?
If you had been his parent, how would you have handled his depression and crying?
Personally, I think Han, Obs, Nem, Ted + Ciaran and Deti and *definitely Rollo as well* should have an offline discussion about this whole thing.
BB, you forgot someone
What, and deprive everyone of a good shit-show?
Absolutely, we are providing the best entertainment some must get in their boring lives.
Newest studies, by male researchers with background in evolutionary psychology, no less, give support to Ciaran’s point that Red Pill is wrong.
They show that humble men, those supposedly “despicable” betas, in the RP parlance, are more attractive to women and are more successful in relationships:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17439760.2014.898317#.VE6r9yLF8Yk
A popular synopsis, easier to digest:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2809789/So-long-bad-guys-Women-finally-twigged-humble-man-best-relationship-Hugh-Grant-Four-Weddings-Leo-Wolf-Wall-Street.html
That’s not news to anyone IRL, obviously, but it may be useful to bring it up on this forum at this time for the benefit of those who still buy into TRP.
They show that humble men, those supposedly “despicable” betas, in the RP parlance, are more attractive to women and are more successful in relationships:
There are two words here where I suspect meanings differ…”attractive” and “successful”. As Rollo would point out, when many women say “attractive” it is referring to something different than SEXUAL AROUSAL. It is attractive in the same way a granite kitchen top is attractive. Re “successful” I suspect that is defined from the feminine goal POV.
One thing I’ve realized is men and women operate from reversed Maslow pyramids of sex and relationships. For many women, the primary goal, first “need” to satisfy is one of a emotionally invested monogamous relationship with sex occupying the higher part of the pyramid of less importance. Which is why many women don’t prioritize simply going out and trying to “get laid”. Most men are the opposite. Getting sex whether relationship, ONS, fuckbuddy, whatever is the base of the pyramid to satisfy. Getting laid is the primary goal while obtaining a emotionally invested relationship is higher on the pyramid of less importance.
Put another way, men are more likely to become frustrated, unhappy, anxious, etc. over not getting sex rather than not being in a relationship. For women, it is the opposite. So defining and evaluating what is “succes” for a man from a female POV with female priorities makes zero sense. The guy who was celibate for 10 years and finally lands a whale fuglie to marry is not more successful than the guy who has regularly been banging Sports Illustrated bikini models, and Victoria Secret’s girls but is single.
“They show that humble men, those supposedly “despicable” betas, in the RP parlance, are more attractive to women and are more successful in relationships”
I think that basic consideration is important for a relationship, as well as self respect. I don’t see these as mutually exclusive things.
Okay…
Why do you think this is relevant? It’s a sample size of 40 students, let’s assume roughly 20 per gender. It hasn’t been replicated yet, so why are you jumping for joy? It applies only to students.
It doesn’t apply to any sort of infield test or personal interaction, but rather applies only to random numbers on a dating profile.
It doesn’t apply to actual men and whether there is a co-variance between traits like humility and neuroticism, etc.
It also doesn’t say women rule out men with low humility if they score high on other attributes. If he is 9 humility and 4 hot, do girls go for him, or 4 humility 9 hot?
The Red Pill doesn’t state that high humility guys aren’t better relationship candidates, so that LDR part is irrelevant. It’s about arousal triggers, not attraction triggers.
Put it this way: Hey Liz, I know this guy named George Clooney. He’s a total jerk.
Hey Liz, I know this guy named George Clooney. He’s really humble.
The Red Pill does not state that women will prefer a guy described the first way. Congrats on both burning a straw-man and assuming a can-opener.
@K Springer
No. Men should not cry – at least not when other people are around. But not for the reason you might think. Not because it is un-manly, or weak, or demonstrative of a deficient personality. But because crying in men (unfortunately) provides the opposite result for a man than it does for a woman.
When a woman cries, men rush to the rescue and even other women become sympathetic and more likely to coddle them. Men seem to have built-in circuitry to want to be white knights. A woman crying will attract helpful men like flies to honey. A man will lose an argument to a crying woman because he will not know how to deal with her overt emotion and irrationality.
When a man cries, no one cares. Women lose attraction to him, since despite the protestations of feminism, women are simply not attracted to emotionally gushy men. And men are not wired to white knight for crying men. A crying man is a shunned man – it sucks that the world is that way, but that’s how it is.
If a man must cry, he should do it in private. When in company, he should master his emotions and control himself – he will get better outcomes in the real wold if he does.
@103
I read those links to say AFBB is real.
The humble man wins the opportunity to provide, ahhh how sweet.
When those studies show great lust for such men you let me know.
Until then the redpill is only set of ideas that explains how to generate lust.
Possum Hill Kid, have you seen this?
A man is pulled over by cops, called a “dead beat dad”, arrested and thrown in jail and forced to pay child support for a kid that is not his! Cops tell him its “too late” to get a DNA test but he does anyway. DNA proves the kid is not his but court judge does not budge, saying he should have responded earlier!
The child’s mother is fighting the system with him (the falsely accused). She does not want him to have to pay either. Finally the court erases any child support payments he may have had to pay, but will not erase the $30,000 they say he “owes the State” for previous welfare monies meted out to the kid’s mom (who was never his wife) while he was doing time in jail.
WTF?!
Hey, while we’re all at it, why don’t we also come up with “solutions” for structural unemployment, Ebola, ISIS, and the achievement gap. I mean, why not, right? The only thing stopping us is our own pessimism!
In the meantime, since understanding things is so counterproductive, by all means, let’s stop discussing things. Act now!
(Editor’s note): esco, how is this.helpful? Please explain?
read those links to say AFBB is real.
The humble man wins the opportunity to provide, ahhh how sweet.
When those studies show great lust for such men you let me know.
Until then the redpill is only set of ideas that explains how to generate lust.
I think the “logic” is as follows.
A woman gets banged by a variety guys including some “hawt” ones for minimal investment when she is at her apex of SMV between 20-25, but they don’t marry her. They are the “unsuccessful” ones.
Mr. Beta Bucks marries her when she is 32 and nowhere near her peak SMV, and he has to “earn” his sex. He is the “successful” one.
Hey, while we’re all at it, why don’t we also come up with “solutions” for structural unemployment, Ebola, ISIS, and the achievement gap. I mean, why not, right? The only thing stopping us is our own pessimism!
In the meantime, since understanding things is so counterproductive, by all means, let’s stop discussing things. Act now!
LOL
@111
I think the “logic” is as follows.
Oh, indeed you’re correct. I keep forgetting the work is it’s own reward.
My only reason for commenting on this is to counter what anon points out in 103.
First, Badpainter is correct that the studies are support for AFBB.
Second, this:
“They show that humble men, those supposedly “despicable” betas, in the RP parlance, are more attractive to women and are more successful in relationships:”
Is wrong. Morpheus is correct that at most, these studies are evidence that “humble” men are more DESIRABLE to women. Women might — MIGHT — want a humble man for a relationship/marriage (in which he is bringing much-desired resources to the table), at least at first.
I’ve discovered over the years commenting around these parts that what really keeps a marriage together is HER sexual arousal for HIM –hard, visceral sexual arousal, as in she wants to have sex with him. Everyone, even the fembloggers, are pretty much in agreement on this.
I’ve also noted that the primary problem here is that people, specifically fembloggers, keep misusing the word “attractive”. They are misleading men into thinking that humility is a SEXUALLY attractive trait. It is NOT. And humility is not a trait that will actually keep a relationship together.
“Study concludes women prefer men with small penises”
Finally, science.
Alana # 71
I don’t think the reason the boys in my example were not thriving was because of brain maturity. Boys and Girls have had maturing brains since time immortal. I think most people will look back at their teens and early 20s and think that those were not their brightest years. I know I was a complete knucklehead. I’m amazed I survived. There was a 180 degree change in me between the ages of 18 to 28. What is I see in the daughters of my friends and myself (that I don’t see in our sons) seems to be drive and determination. Why aren’t they looking forward to the future with anticipation?
Jeremy #71
Interesting stuff. Has a ring of truth to it. Where did that come from? Does it relate to Carl Jung’s theories?
K. Springer #99
……”ultimately those young men have to take responsibility for their own personal choices to use and sell drugs”.
What I don’t understand is why men are almost twice as likely as women to become addicted. 11.5% VS. 6.4% ….according to this Harvard study I read. And not just drugs and alcohol. The American Psychiatric Association has added a new diagnosis to the DSM-V manual…….Internet Gaming disorder. Its listed as an addiction with the same lifestyle symptoms as meth or crack addiction. Guess who is affected? Mostly young men ages 12-20. Why?
I continue to be amazed that people (mostly women) continually confuse sexual attraction and desirable. Anon has posted here before; so she knows the jargon and the concepts.
@114
“fembloggers, keep misusing the word ‘attractive’.”
To true.
I see attractive women everyday. Some are physically attractive. Some are intellectually attractive. Some are behaviorally attractive. Others are less physically attractive but very sexually attractive. Some are attractive across several catagories simultaneously. A very few are very highly attractive across every catagory, but those are unicorns, and they don’t actually exist outside my head.
@ LynM
I can’t see how feminism was the issue.
Why did they commit suicide?
I can remember being suicidal because of my social problems as an autist and because I could never develop a relationship with a girl. I had bought the feminist idea that a man’s value was obtained by being in a relationship with a girl. Pretty common, I think. MGTOW fixes that.
@118
“…Internet Gaming disorder. Its listed as an addiction with the same lifestyle symptoms as meth or crack addiction. Guess who is affected? Mostly young men ages 12-20. Why?”
Boredom. Life in 2014 has no meaning only drudgery for many men.
I seriously suggest you read Fight Club. It’s the best description of the sort of ennui men face today.
@106… Morpheus, I agree. I think a more succinct way of putting it, particularly in LTRs, is that for women, connection begets sex and for men, sex begets connection.
Novaseeker, “Boys should not cry, barring extraordinary circumstances. The issue isn’t that boys should be bawling like they are girls, but that when boys DO feel compelled to cry, in very extenuating circumstances, they should get support. It should be acknowledged that in some very, very limited circumstances — like chronic depression”
Depression is not “very, very limited circumstances” amongst teens anymore.
“death of a family member”
I’ll add death of a beloved pet, a heartbreak, and many other things.
“Otherwise … no, men should not cry at a drop of a hat.”
Come one. Nobody suggested crying at the drop of a hat.
About Gamergate. Just googled it. So a small scale indie gamer created a video game and a bunch of losers decide to dox her and threaten her (and her family) with murder and rape to the point she has had to leave her home and couch surf, then when they get exposed for it they all of a sudden change tune and claim “its not about her its about ‘ethics in game journalism’ ” while conveniently avoiding Big Game AAA and sticking to harassing this small, indie game creator?
And you have to wonder why there’s even a loser gamer stereotype?
SfcTon, I’ve only seen you here promoting the masculinity is toxic trope. Previously you had written that sociopathy and narcissism are amongst the things that are great about being a man. You’re the only one I’ve seen associate sociopathy and narcissism (toxic disorders) with manhood.
@ LynM
Education has become male-hostile in so many ways. I’ve read a post somewhere elucidating the ways. Young men are avoiding college or are not being accepted. Women with lower IQs find it easier to get into med school than men with the same IQ.
Same goes with the military skill requirements. And promotions. Etc. Employers and academia are encouraged to give women a pussy pass. Then there are all the stories about frivorce. And young men want a unicorn, but none are readily available. And they are invisible to women because they are beta.
Hence, hope is lost; hence suicide.
Badpainter:
When women talk about guys who are “attractive” in public, they are talking about guys for whom it is socially acceptable for them to label “attractive”. They’re actually talking about men who have “desirable” traits (or what Athol calls “comfort” traits) — industriousness, punctuality, responsibility, accountability, humility, caring, loyalty, fidelity, kindness, compassion, empathy.
They are talking about Paul Plumber and Louie Lawyer and Ernie Engineer and Tom Teacher. They’re talking about Mr. Dependable –guys with office jobs and polo shirts and khakis and car payments and who are affable and personable and who go on dinner and a movie dates on the weekends.
They’re talking about Beta Bucks, the guys women marry. But the misunderstanding comes in because women constantly talk about these guys as “attractive”. Men hear that and think “sexually attractive” or “arousing”. But that’s not what these women are really talking about. What they’re talking about is “desirable”. They want “arousing” men who have “desirable” traits. But women never, ever talk about wanting “arousing” men, because to say something like that in public would make them look shallow, superficial and bitchy; and remove a lot of the “mystique” they try to shroud themselves with.
This dichotomy is one of the things women have tried the hardest to guard and keep from men, I think. It’s good for men to know this, and for that little secret to be blown wide open.
@122
“About Gamergate…”
Had an interesting discussion about this over the weekend with bunch younger (late 20’s) nerdy types. Very interesting the consensus was the #gamergate guy were being assholes. BUT they were fighting the good fight against the blight of leftist SJWs who we all agreed can’t die fast enough.
Really Gamergate is pushback against feminism/leftism attempting to take over another male space. It’s working because those guy have nothing to lose.
@ Ol Yeller
See my posts about Dark Triad and narcissism at http://www.justfourguys.com/the-red-pill-is-wrong-becoming-a-better-beta/#comment-250356.
@ liz 105
I think that basic consideration is important for a relationship, as well as self respect. I don’t see these as mutually exclusive things.
Sure, if you want a beast of burden, consideration is paramount. I bet Mike does plenty of inconsiderate things and it’s precisely these things that cause you to see him as a man. I’m not saying that Mike is never considerate, but that he is a jerk from time to time and that his occasional jerkiness makes him sexually desirable.
That characteristic of women (liking jerks) persists into post-menopause, though is somewhat moderated, based on my experience.
But when women are talking about “hawt” or “gorgeous” guys, the men who get sex right away, they’re talking about the usual men. George Clooney, Brad Pitt, Channing Tatum.
Alpha McGorgeous — the smooth, good looking, high N player.
Fuckbuddy Rockbanddrummer — the unemployed, destitute layabout, can’t hold down a 9 to 5, works odd jobs, has fun in a shitty garage band, absolutely swims in poon.
Harley McBadboy — the brooding, lone wolf, Sigma dude who appears out of nowhere. Shrouded in mystery, no one knows who he really is, looks like he’s probably done time. Swims in poon.
Frank Fratboy — the BMOC, the quarterback, the hail-fell0w-well-met, backslapping, gladhanding, always glad to see you guy. Financially successful, good looking, outgoing. Skates and gets by on his good looks, connections and gregarious personality. Is a bullshitter. Also swims in poon. If married, he’s likely cheating on his wife.
@124
“This dichotomy is one of the things women have tried the hardest to guard and keep from men, I think. It’s good for men to know this, and for that little secret to be blown wide open.”
Absolutely!
I’ve been building a mental list of words and phrases that women use conversationally that mean something different to them in subtext than they do to men in context. I might have to write a female to male dictionary.
@ deti
I’ve discovered over the years commenting around these parts that what really keeps a marriage together is HER sexual arousal for HIM –hard, visceral sexual arousal, as in she wants to have sex with him. Everyone, even the fembloggers, are pretty much in agreement on this.
Yeah, it’s pretty accepted. You can put it another way: The health of a relationship can be measured by the Fakk/Fight ratio (which needs to be greater than 3 to be generally happy).
You can see my relationship post for all the emotional components needed to keep a woman generally non-troublesome. I’m awed by the response to that post in terms of views. Someone out there is linking it. I had 25 connections from NZ one day.
@#109 K. Springer
That’s some crazy shyt and he’s right to fight it but the fact remains that the woman who put his name down because she was “in a jam” is to blame for this whole mess. Put down the name of the real father. What kind of a “jam” was she in that she couldn’t tell the truth? Why put down the name of the man who wasn’t the father of the child?
Most likely, the father is a hardened criminal who told her that if she mentioned his name, he would punch her ticket. That being said, she wasn’t even smart enough to just make up a generic name and call it a day and say that DeVonte Verdell McWillaims (see how easy it is to make up a name?) wasn’t in Detroit anymore and she had no idea where he was. Is it lame? Yes, but at least she wouldn’t be throwing an innocent man under the bus.
Red pill explained why and how I’d been making mistakes all my life by believing women. Haven’t used it to gain sex. I’m 58, so I don’t think that I’ll get married again. Here’s part of the problem for young men. Young boys are rowdy. Nowadays they’re doped to the gills with ritalin to settle them down. Think about the long term effects of that. On an immature mind. Kids aren’t allowed to go out and play for fear of lawsuits. No chance to burn off some energy. Feminist teachers say the boys are out of control. IMO, that’s part of the problem.
@135
“Read the studies”
Pull my other finger.
Ooh, are we playing ‘top that study’ again?
I wanna play…
Agreeableness and humility in men has been associated with a negative predictor of sex partners.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi/10.1371/journal.pone.0029265
This might also be useful information with respect to the “new direction” this blog is taking too.
Gamer #183
…..”Education has become male-hostile in so many ways. I’ve read a post somewhere elucidating the ways. Young men are avoiding college or are not being accepted. Women with lower IQs find it easier to get into med school than men with the same IQ”.
My info says that young men just aren’t applying. I know University of GA has lowered the GPA and SAT requirements for boys, just to even out the gender disparity at UGA, because so many fewer boys are applying. One girl I know of sued UGA because they let in a boy she knew in with a lower gpa and SAT, and rather than fight it…UGA they just let her in. They try to keep in under the radar. Boys do better in standardized tests. Girls have better GPAs. IQ is about the same. Universities still want a close to 50/50 mix. If they need 5000 male students and 5000 female, but only 7000 men apply as compared to 15,000 women….men will have a greater chance getting in. It’s just that men aren’t as interested in getting in anymore.
As far as medical school…there’s not as much interest in that anymore either. It will take you at least 8 years to finish school and residency after undergraduate. You’ll leave with 400,000 in debt. You’ll have to pay 100,000 in malpractice insurance to keep the lawyers away. Then Obamacare wants to pay you $25 per patient visit. Most people are saying the hell with that. Go into IT and make the same money and have a more peaceful life.
@lyn m
Start with reading the war on boys by Christina Hoff summers, then men on strike by Helen smith. Both will give you insight into the problem.
And regarding what I wrote about personality, it relates to the work of Jung, Myers, Briggs, and most recently Kinsey. Personality theory goes a long way in explaining the problems you brought up in the context of Smith and Hoff Summers’ books.
@anon 135
Read them. Not impressed. Too many flaws in the study, not the least of which is relying on questionnaires to assess what women want. There’s an old saying in the manosphere – don’t listen to what a woman says, watch what she DOES. You don’t need a study to hear women rattling off a list of qualities they desire (or think they do). Watch who they are actually attracted to in real life.
As an aside, women are attracted to confidence – overt confidence – in men. Ever wondered why? I have. It all related to pre- selection. Women are unable to assess a man’s power and quality at a glance – they need a shortcut to do so. A man who has a bevy of women attracted to him (preselection) is automatically attractive. But in the absence of preselection, a woman needs something else to judge a man’s quality. His overt confidence is actually his preselection of himself. He shows the world he is high powered by his behaviour, and women believe him. Crazy but true.
True humility is the opposite of confidence. It allows women to build comfort and win arguments. It does not generate attraction.
Re Jeremy #135
It sounds like something I should read. Thx.
Lyn, I think it starts at a very early age. One of my first posts on this forum, I wrote the following, from the observations made by another person in on a political debate forum, which I found to be very astute and perceptive:
“No, go look at what’s happening in GRADE SCHOOLS.
How many male teachers are there teaching K-6?
How many boys in grade schools have no father at home?
How many boys in grade school still get to play cops and robbers during recess? Zero tolerance. Wrestle and fight during recess? Zero tolerance. Show off their neat new pocket knife? Zero tolerance, go to juvi. Gleefully chase one another across the pavement with the intention of utterly annihilating their opponent with the dodgeball? Too dangerous, might damage somebody’s self-esteem. Play “smear the queer”? Can’t its a “Hate game.” Rolling in the mud? Too dirty.
Anne of Green Gables, Matilda, Laura Ingalls, and all the other great “girl students” of the past will find a schoolyard society that is, excepting the technology, little different than the ones they knew. Oh, they might notice the lack of physical teasing, no more pony tails pulled by the boys, but that’s about it. Its still mostly about cliques, about who’s in and who’s out, about yak, yak, yak.
Tom Sawyer, the Lit’l Rascals, the boys of October Sky? What will they find? Today’s schoolyard will be utterly foreign to them, a place where they can’t “be boys” any longer.
Gut the industrial arts programs in high schools, obliterate them in junior highs. Chemistry? Of course you don’t get to blow any thing up, that would be too dangerous. (Even CO2 probably couldn’t get past the lawyers nowadays.) What about dissecting a frog? Boys (as a generalization) LOVE to do that sort of thing. Nope, not after PETA finished with the district three years ago. Auto shop? Gone, liability killed it, but hey, we have this neat computer lab….
So, what is school now? Boys don’t get to build things, they don’t get to blow things up, they don’t get to fight or even pretend to fight. The only “guy” things left are sports, but every team only has so many spots…. Oh, and when they get to high school, if not sooner? They’re going to constantly be reminded about how they can’t “harass” the girls. Unfortunately for the boys, the girls have a myriad of methods for harrassing them that don’t run afoul of PC codes.
Gee, I wonder why boys are falling behind in school now. And lets not even get into the subject of drugging the little delinquents…”
That last, behavior modifying medications, is another big one and the upper classes do it more. Just my two bits.
theasdgamer, I agree Mike isn’t a pushover, but I wouldn’t say he is inconsiderate in general, I’d say he’s considerate in general (he does a lot of very considerate things). On the flip side, I’m not going to say he has never done anything inconsiderate, and I agree consideration in itself isn’t going to stoke the home flames. “You’re so considerate! That’s so HOT! And you just listen so well…” Yeah, probably not so much.
On the flip side, it’s not like I chose the least considerate man I could find, he’s far FAR more considerate than that first frog (not a Frenchman, but it was my first kiss).
I think most of us had really horrible highschool experiences, I am one of them.
As I see it. The problem being that most families are raising the ideal Son In Law, a Ward Cleaver type, instead of the ideal lover. Forty something mothers tend to forget what she wanted when she was young. Young women tend to be repulsed by what her mother wants for her. Young women have a different agenda which changes with her age. No point in getting angry. Just understand the rules of attraction and learn to increase your SMV…
Re#138
Liz, good post! And so true. Some days I wish we could toss all the computers and video games away and just send our kids to the woods with plastic swords and let their imaginations do the rest. My childhood seemed so much simpler.
Plastic? Shit, our swords were made from wood. Damn good incentive to not get hit by one.
“Plastic? Shit, our swords were made from wood. Damn good incentive to not get hit by one.”
That’s called a stick, Sumo.
Actually, one of the most interesting things about having boys is the fact that they started making their own weapons practically from birth. My oldest was about two when he found a stick that looked like a gun and it was his favorite toy for about two years.
Au contraire, Lizard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokken
So there.
“(Editor’s note): esco, how is this.helpful? Please explain?”
Your definition of “helpful” is ridiculously narrow. I am pointing out the foolish absurdity. And pointing out the tiresomeness of your debate tactic of essentially saying “Source?” to every post you can’t answer. Gee, where have we seen this before?
Let me make an easy prediction: this new turn for this blog will “solve” precisely _zero_ problems in any aggregate sense. I can’t tell if it’s hubris, ignorance or something else which impels a couple of bloggers to think that simply by deleting posts, banning commenters, and insisting that every post be “constructive” they can “solve” perennial problems that the human race has been struggling with since we learned to talk and write.
Have you even yet cone up with an operational definition of “constructive”?
This blog was doing something good, if not grand enough for your current aspirations. Now I guess your plan is just to turn it into a hectoring virtual schoolmarm with testicles.
Ban me, I don’t care; in this iteration, the place won’t be interesting to me anyway.
(Editors note): a bit less florid esco, LOL. But really, did you even read my post? Hope is a constant stream of negative comments from certain guys who’s been saying the same thing for years a good thing? Please explain that to me?
Nobody is being banned here. All I’m asking ids that we try to be note constructive is all. What do I mean by that? Again please read my post. I lay out ask out there.
Let me also say this:
I don’t want to be part of a “locker room” environment and never did. I thought it was base when I was a teenager and I think it’s silly now as an adult man. I think we can do better than that.
Wow.
So now you’re deleting post with links to studies that run counter to your ‘new message’? Hmm…
Agreeableness and humility in men has been associated with a negative predictor of sex partners.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi/10.1371/journal.pone.0029265
Yeah, that’s for you anon.
So much for the ‘open debate’ you’ve been touting, huh?
(Editor’s note): No. I’m growing tired of your taunts and immature behavior Rollo.
#144 Liz, Yes I remember my first full day at school. All the boys in the first grade class during recess we went over to the nearest patch of side walk and started sharpening our pop sickle sticks on the concrete. One boy said “they can kiiiiill you. No one told us to do this.
Obs, “locker room” is a straw man.
Your personal obsession / vendetta / jihad / crusade is that every post be “constructive” and about “doing something” and anyone who isn’t 100% down with that 24/7, you hector and chastise. But you can’t even define what those things mean. The OP here certainly does not.
Is it MRA advocacy? Then say so.
Is it self-improvement? If so, then I can’t help but think you just aren’t paying attention, since once of the strongest areas of agreement amongst all of us from every faction is that self-improvement is valuable no matter what the external circumstances are.
Some of the guys certainly are extremely negative. I can think of one off the top of my head. Perhaps only that one. But in any case, it’s hardly worth changing the entire blog over that and becoming censorious.
This really seems all about your bias toward “activism”. Except, as far as I can see, the sum total of your “activism” is to chastise guys you think are insufficiently “activist” according to a standard which you haven’t articulated well enough for the rest of us to understand.
In any case, I have no interest whatsoever in being an “activist.” Nor, frankly, do I think any of you who are pushing the line. If you really were “activists” we would know your real names. You’d be out pushing an agenda in the open, the way certain MGTOWs are. But you aren’t doing that.
So what are you doing? Why are you radically constricting this blog in the name of an “activism” which you don’t even practice?
” I know University of GA has lowered the GPA and SAT requirements for boys, just to even out the gender disparity at UGA, because so many fewer boys are applying.”
Interesting. No standard should be “lowered” just to accomodate a demographic.
“My info says that young men just aren’t applying.”
So what?
“Universities still want a close to 50/50 mix.”
Why?
“If they need 5000 male students and 5000 female, but only 7000 men apply as compared to 15,000 women….men will have a greater chance getting in. ”
Hmm.
“It’s just that men aren’t as interested in getting in anymore.”
OK so if they’re not interested then so what? There are a million other educational things they can do besides go to college. They can deliver pizza for a year, stack the money, and then go back packing throughout SE Asia or wherever and learn more about culture, the world, people, humanity and language then they would sitting in classes for 4 years.
Its like people think not going to college is the end of the world or something. Its not.
“They can deliver pizza for a year, stack the money, and then go back packing throughout SE Asia or wherever”
This is what I did after high school, but Latin America. I love it so much that when I returned I just lived with my parents again, delivered more pizza, stacked more money and went back for a longer time the second time around. That year a lot of opportunities down there opened up for me. I met people, made good connections, and ended up being a handy man at an eco resort where some local employees taught me carpentry and eventually house building. No school. 3 years later when I moved back home I ended up volunteering for Habitat for Humanity building houses for the needy. That led me to connections here and I’ve been building houses for coin ever since. I’ll take on a project, save the money and then run off to another country for 6 months, where usually, someone hires me to build something there too.
Not going to college has been the best decision I ever made.
Nuff said! Except that women under the age of 45 have no idea who he is. Please update your celeb go to guy! Ian Somerhalder and Matt Bomer come to mind. Even they are slowly aging out. Remember, we are a youth obsessed nation and no one gives a rat’s ass about the over 40 set.
Sometimes a person with great talent will accept a deal that comes with promises and guarantees. Granted, it’s testament to ones talent to be offered such a deal. Sometimes a deal completely changes a person, and no amount of reason can change the person back.
To become men, guys need role models that communicate with strength, confidence and truth. Watering down the message does not build men.
LiveFearless, went to your blog, followed the link to “Wild”. Looks intense, like “Into The Wild” meets “Eat Pray Love”
“What does it mean to be a Man, in early 21st century American life?”
Victor Pride has exhaustively covered that. The archives are still there, no charge. Here’s the funny thing, commenters over there tend to behave themselves because the MAN that writes the blog continuously earns the respect of those that read and comment.
Comment sections reflect the one in charge.
“A Final Word To The Critics”
Are you referring to Rollo Tomassi, the one that has repeatedly put his reputation on the line to build the J4G audience? He’s not the only one. Gratitude would be a more reasonable response. Happy cleaning.
@150
Shamergate:
“Nothing doing. Blah blah blah blah blah….bleat….blah…..whine blah.”
Get over it.
You have found an adversary that won’t back down, and can’t be shamed.
It gives me hope.
escoffier 146/149 & LiveFearless 156
Nicely put. Pretty much sums it up. The OP is only interested in his own machinations to shore-up his ego. Plenty of men have never been in the locker room, but most don’t feel the need to sully what the locker room means to those men who have taken the field with other men. I’ve lurked here enough to know that this “style” is nothing new. In fact, the only thing I find surprising is that it has taken this long for the ego to go critical mass in its effort to control the agenda fully. On the backs of other men, of course.
@ LynM
Boys not applying to college may come as a result of a business decision. Not worth the expense.
“You have found an adversary that won’t back down, and can’t be shamed.
It gives me hope.”
It gives you hope when people threaten to rape and kill a video game creator? That says a lot about your character, and none of it good.
Its high time you people take inventory of your own conscience.
Backing rape and death threat-givers, proclaiming women should not have the right to vote, and any number of other lunacies.
Women shouldn’t have the right to vote because you don’t like who or what they’re voting for? What about the MEN who don’t vote the way you wished they would? Should they be denied the vote as well? Isn’t that what voting is all about in the first place – CHOICES?
Seem to me what a lot of you are wishing for is some sort of fascist monarchal state, one in which a state religion was imposed as well.
At the end of the day it just shows how uncomfortable with freedom, liberty and choice you are.
My prediction is that all this online mental masturbation is getting you nowhere. You certainly have not shown any increased happiness over the net from it, I highly doubt you are all joys to be around in real life either.
Editor, moderator, admin, whatever – you seem to devote a lot of precious time and energy to this blog. Perhaps at one time it was a fun hobby but it appears even you are growing weary over the same old circles that keep getting run around here with no end in sight and worse yet – no DESIRED end in sight. Many of your commenters appear to ENJOY their miserable states of mind and I know this frustrates you, because you have stated so yourself.
There’s a new meme going around: USE THE INTERNET TO GET OFF THE INTERNET. Meaning the internet should really only be used as a tool to improve one’s real life offline. You go on the net to find out what exciting things can be experienced off line, and that’s it. You log off and go out and live those experiences.
I think that’s the point you are at right now. You really don’t want to engage in an online circle jerk of epic proportions because its NOT ADDING VALUE TO YOUR LIFE anymore, like it did in the beginning when it was a new fun hobby and you had some new points you wanted to get out into the ether.
I think you should align yourself with those people who are DOING SOMETHING PRACTICAL IN THE REAL WORLD to improve the human condition. I think you should blog for them. Otherwise, I wouldn’t spend so much time blogging unless its vetting you some sort of income.
What is the point of hashing and re-hashing the same tired topics over and over with commenters who haven’t moved from A to B? And not getting any income for the time and energy it sucks out of your life to boot?
You will just waste your time, writing skills and ultimately your life, year after year.
Time for a new approach. One that will add practical value to you.
@160
Shamergate,
Say it with me:
Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.
Ah better.
Enjoy your outrage.
Solutions? You want boys NOT to want to kill themselves? “So why aren’t our boys thriving???” OK. How’s this for starters: you want to raise a boy? You have to be able to be able to tell him this:
You are a great, powerful being in a great, beautiful world and you have the power to make a great, enormously fulfilling, wonderful, happy life for yourself, full of enjoyment and glory and you fully deserve to triumph and find happiness. Everything about your manliness is what’s good with humanity. You are the standard bearer of a great and glorious species. Go and be a proud member of a rational, productive and free society that will guarantee the best protection we can device for your rights to Life, Freedom and the Pursuit of Happiness. There is not one wrong thing with being a Man. Being a Man is great and you fully deserve all the greatness and satisfactions that await you. Men have built this world. You come from a long line of intelligent, strong, decent, fierce and proud Men who have preceded you. Now it’s your turn. Make them proud. Make yourself proud of being their descendant and of carrying their banners. Don’t EVER bow your head because you are a Man. Whoever tells you there’s something wrong with being a Man is your enemy and an enemy of the Human Race and should be destroyed. Remember that EVERY second of you life. Manliness has created this world. Now go forth and use yours to enjoy your life and make the world a better place. And every time the word “Man” comes up either in your mind or in conversation or wherever . . . lift up you chin proudly and feel the pride envelop you with a golden cape and straighten your spine . . . because you are one. And being a Man is just gooooooooooooood!!
OK. There you have it. ANYTHING that’s against ANY of be above is just a lie and it’s poison and it has a purpose: to destroy manliness, to destroy the boy BEFORE he has a chance to spread his wings. And it should be treated accordingly.
And it should be a Man to say it. Not a woman.
Most women don’t want men to fly. They are afraid of being left alone, abandoned on the ground. That is why boys should be educated by Men. Boys need to hear the Truth from a Man. A Man they can look up to and say, resolute and proud: “I’m going to be like him!! I’m going to be a MAN!!” And spend their lives happily, fulfilling the promise.
“Solutions? You want boys NOT to want to kill themselves?”
Boys and men have a higher suicide rate than girls and women because of this stupid, misandric, grotesque cartoon character concept of masculinity that the “boys shouldn’t cry” brigade here is pedaling. How did that one guy put it, “Men shouldn’t cry because others need your strength”.
So men and boys hold everything in, don’t open up and seek help because that is seen as being “weak”, and then one day it gets too much so they put a pistol in their mouth.
Men and boys are human too.
Shamergate,
“It gives you hope when people threaten to rape and kill a video game creator?”
Not that part, these harassers doxxers should be prosecuted. Same for the harassers and doxxers on the mainstream media.
The hope part is seing feminism pushed back somewhere. Not the “women rights” part of feminism (if it has any), but the insulting, double standard female supremacy bigotry part of feminism.
“That says a lot about your character, and none of it good.”
That you attempt to control de narrative and demonize your opponent without considering arguments says a lot about your character, and none of it good ditto.
“Its high time you people take inventory of your own conscience.”
Preach.
“Backing rape and death threat-givers”
Yep, that’s a terrible thing.
If you think backing Gamergate means backing the bad apples in there, does that mean that backing feminism makes you a backer of radicals, the kind who want to exterminate all men? tell me more about your hate, what made you so sad inside?
“proclaiming women should not have the right to vote, and any number of other lunacies.”
Strawman, right to vote has nothing to do with Gamergate, nor with feminism.
“Isn’t that what voting is all about in the first place – CHOICES?”
Actually the voting system is not working, an the CHOICES are rigged or meaningless, because the people on top control the narrative, demonize their opponents and run the clock, while promoting an agenda is never accessible to the voters. Use your power to change the system and make these choices meaningful, for men and women. If you care.
“Seem to me what a lot of you are wishing for is some sort of fascist monarchal state”
This is current reality.
“one in which a state religion was imposed as well.”
This is current as well. The religion is called leftism, and if you stray away from it you get made an example of.
“At the end of the day it just shows how uncomfortable with freedom, liberty and choice you are.”
There’s no freedom, liberty or choice.
See Gamergate: Gamers push against corruption on journalism and the infiltration of feminism propaganda (all men are pigs) in games. What choice do they have? how is the matter handled?
“My prediction is that all this online mental masturbation is getting you nowhere.”
Prediction, do you mean in the future?
” You certainly have not shown any increased happiness over the net from it, I highly doubt you are all joys to be around in real life either.”
Speak for yourself, Im coming in my pants.
“Editor, moderator, admin, whatever – you seem to devote a lot of precious time and energy to this blog. Perhaps at one time it was a fun hobby but it appears even you are growing weary over the same old circles that keep getting run around here with no end in sight and worse yet – no DESIRED end in sight. Many of your commenters appear to ENJOY their miserable states of mind and I know this frustrates you, because you have stated so yourself.”
I agree Obsidian. For the fuck of sanity, only allow commenters like Shamergate, and keep deleting Rollo comments. That will increase the prosperity and Joy for everyone involved.
“There’s a new meme going around: USE THE INTERNET TO GET OFF THE INTERNET. ”
Are you asking me out?
” You go on the net to find out what exciting things can be experienced off line, and that’s it. You log off and go out and live those experiences.”
Your house or mine?
“You really don’t want to engage in an online circle jerk of epic proportions because its NOT ADDING VALUE TO YOUR LIFE anymore, like it did in the beginning when it was a new fun hobby and you had some new points you wanted to get out into the ether. I think you should align yourself with those people who are DOING SOMETHING PRACTICAL IN THE REAL WORLD to improve the human condition. I think you should blog for them. Otherwise, I wouldn’t spend so much time blogging unless its vetting you some sort of income.”
Obsidian, Shamergate really gets you. Why dont you start a join venture blog together?
Obshame.com is available?
“What is the point of hashing and re-hashing the same tired topics over and over with commenters who haven’t moved from A to B? And not getting any income for the time and energy it sucks out of your life to boot?”
Finally something I agree with. What’s the point of keep saying the same red pill things and getting offended by its reality? what’s next?
I dont mean “more censorship” but really, whats next?
“You will just waste your time, writing skills and ultimately your life, year after year. Time for a new approach. One that will add practical value to you.”
Obsidian + Shamergate for the win.
The Obsidian Gates of Shame dot com?
Just A Dude And A Troll Dot Com?
The possibilities are endless.
SID, 165
YES! we need more commenters like you. Who else do you want to trash, for the sake of constructive and normal conversation?
15 year old,
“Men and boys are human too.”
Start practicing your belief by actively showing compassion and understanding when men are weak, whinny, and angry, when men are failures, are clueless, and when they dont arouse you.
You can start anywhere, I recommend you the MRA or Gamergate. Smother them with affection, let them know they are human, too. Then come back and report.
Yohami @166
ROFLMAO. That whole thing was funny. But… there is something to be said for treating such things like the shit tests they are. In which case your reply would compress to about 2 shivvy excerpted sentences:
“Are you trying to date me? Your house or mine?”
I said above that there was no value in having people like shamergate around. I now back off of that – but only IF the goal is to treat them like shit tests and come back with appropriately concise and shivvy replies, as a semi-live aspect of Game training.
Obs, you have created a serious problem with this post. I assumed this had been discussed back-channel. My strong recommendation is to abandon ego, take Batistat Blogger’s advice ASAP, and not forget Morpheus either.
The loss of good contributors, in the roster or the comment section, is a very heavy price whose opportunity cost expands with time. Anything you do to incur such a cost needs a well thought-out plan behind it, and identified support from enough key players to move you in the direction you want to go.
I’m not seeing either. Step 1 of BBB is swallowing pride and putting your band first.
Escoffier 110:
It’s true that discussions have value even if no solutions are offered, but there isn’t really a need to diss those who are more actively seeking solutions. Let’s be frank, most of us are lazy and weighed down by inertia, incl myself, but then I’m not the one complaining abt the other gender, societal forces or policies holding me back in life.
Obsidian’s just saying make yourself more attractive to women if u wanna date, and do stuff to improve ur life or that of other guys instead of only talking. Maybe I missed something, but I don’t see how that’s objectionable. =)
I’ve been thinking about the topic.
One of the things that is confusing about this development is….only a month ago we had a thread about trolls. And the thread (essentially) suggested that trolls were actually a GOOD thing and shouldn’t be dissuaded because “shine the light on ignorance” and all that.
At the time, I thought that was a little too charitable. For a couple of reasons…first, I don’t like trolls and believe that allowing them to post and then picking up after them is similar to allowing someone to throw trash in your yard and then picking it up. Eventually, with enough trash, it’s going to leave a stench anyway. My second suspicion was that it wouldn’t take long before this policy would become unbelieveably exhausting. Human communication is subjective and 24/7 keeping on top of something like that is bound to create burnout sooner or later.
@15 year old
I’m going to assume you are genuine with your comments and treat them with respect.
Yes, men are human. Yes, men should seek help when they need it. Yes, men need to have an emotional outlet or their feelings can explode into unfortunate consequences. Until there, I’m with you. The question is more a practical question of what that outlet should be if the man is not to lead himself to WORSE outcomes in the real world.
Realize that the unfortunate truth is that both men and women’s natural response to seeing a man cry is contempt and revulsion. It shouldn’t be true, but it is. Even people whose feminist upbringing dictates that they should be ok with it suddenly find themselves disgusted. I’m not saying men shouldn’t cry because it’s wrong. I’m saying it because it will lead to loss of attraction with women and loss of status with men.
Men should find an emotional outlet. Someone they trust (or pay) to listen and offer help. But maintaining a strong public image is more advantageous.
Generations and generations of people were raised to be hardened by life and their impulse was not to kill themselves because they weren’t permitted enough emotional expression. When WOMEN cry too often, it annoys me. I was raised not to cry also.
My ex boyfriend (the one I dated before my husband) cried when the cat got snipped. He cried when the dog got snipped. I don’t mean put to sleep, I mean spayed and neutered. He cried at the drop of a hat. Yes, this is probably one reason I didn’t like him.
I’ve seen my husband cry (when something actually really BAD has happened..and yes, we’ve made each other cry a couple of times) and it isn’t a sign of weakness in his case. I’m the same way. If I cry, it’s really really bad (exception when I’m pregnant).
college is now a reverse intelligence test; its for the supper smart or those not smart enough to figure out how to make bank without going into a shit ton of debt 1st.
@165 spoken like a woman. Men don’t want that kind of coddling
@172 just so Liz… and shame to those who cannot realize it. But others do need your strength. My family was devastated by my brothers death and many told me what got them through those 1st days and weeks was me not crying, taking care of business and them. So what is more loving bawling like a beat bitch or standing firm for those around you?
[…] A New Day […]
shamergate @159:
I recommend maxi-pads, or perhaps adult diapers, for your condition.
Care to examine the sexist, bigoted comments and death, rape and dox threats delivered to supporters of gamergate from the SJW side of the house? I thought not.
Your conflation of deserved criticism of those two sexist Special Snowflakes, Zoe Quinn and the feminazi Trojan horse Sarkeezian with those trolls making threats and hacker groups, is just as bigoted as the trolls you are raging against.
How come women think that, unless a person of vagina is involved in creating a game, or, if a woman doesn’t like a certain game genre, that it isn’t “good”, or that it is defacto evidence of hatred of women?
SJW sexists criticize what they call marginalization of women by their depiction within games, all the while ignoring all the males depicted in game as mere targets to be shot. Care to address that casual culture of female supremacism and anti-male sexism within female gamer/game developer ranks?
Women who think that games, made to appeal to what the male majority of gamers are buying and playing, is a PROBLEM are the true sexists in that subculture of society. They are also showing their vast ignorance of market economics. They need to shut the hell up and let gamers game.
Anyone else but me notice how the OP conflates some of the Negative Nancy commenters here with a drug dealer in need of ostracizing??
The critique: that men need to be more like women in order to reduce the male suicide rate, is extremely sexist and misandrist.
“I am not a fan of video games. I actually had to learn a lot about video games” Anita Sarkeesian, 2010.
She’s a fraud. A big fat phony. Enough said.
Morpheus #101: My bad, man—just a dumb oversight on my part.
@Ted @Novaseeker
What’s your opinion on this?
Traditional Gynocentric MGTOWs
No prob BB, I was just playing
Alana,
I think you did miss something. Nobody is “dissing” those who are seeking active solutions. What we, or at least I, object to is the hectoring from those solution-seekers against those of us who aren’t “activists” by whatever their definition is.
A definition that, by the way, is far from clear. When challenged, at least Ciaran was able to say something concrete about how he might go about getting colleges to reverse anti-male policies. Whether he has actually acted on that in his real life, I have no idea, but it was at least actionable. Whether it would work or not is another matter.
Obs, on the other hand, has not to the best of my knowledge even formulated a manifesto, not even a limited one. Take one of his hobby horses—phony claims of “street harassment.” He makes a lot of good points about that. E.g., just the other day I saw some TV segment that was supposed to be scandalous, showing what women faced on the street. A woman walked around with a hidden cam and taped like three guys saying “hello” and this was supposed to be outrageous. So I get Obs’ point here. But where is his actionable “do something” manifesto to stop it?
His primary “action” seems to be to rail against the rest of us for not talking enough about “action.”
Your last point is way off. Once again, NO ONE here disagrees with the advice to improve oneself—through exercise, better appearance, interesting hobbies and so on. No one. If some sad dude did show up and say “Don’t exercise, it’s all a waste of time,” he would be pilloried. That’s not the “action” that’s under dispute. The questions are whether we are all under some obligation to be activists; whether a blog is the right place to be active; and whether we actually have a clear goal for what we want to accomplish, a strategy to achieve that goal, and the tactics to operationalize the strategy.
Obs has never even come close to satisfactorily answering those questions. And yet the hectoring not only continues, it has now been announced to be the purpose of the blog.
@182 (Keith Swanson) —
Can’t see anything there. Is there a link available?
Never mind — I found the video.
I disagree somewhat with the vblogger. No question men *can* and *do* self-define. However, from my perspective the keys are: (1) what is viable in the current cultural situation and (2) what is ideal? There is a difference.
A society based on atomized individual self-actualization is far from an ideal one, because it really provides no social foundation for a stable society. The family is de-prioritized, radically, in this conception. So, from an ideal perspective, it is less than ideal. It may be the most pragmatic way to proceed given the current cultural constraints — whether that is MGTOW or otherwise — precisely because today that model is not socially, culturally or politically supported. But that itself represents a less than ideal situation.
In the ideal situation, the traditional setup is not gynocentric but family-centric, with the idea being that a family-based culture creates a stronger basis for a stable and thriving society. It requires hard monogamy, which also places burdens on women which they do not like (see the current setup), burdens on the most sexually successful men, and burdens on the ordinary men. The benefits of all of those shackles run to the benefit of the society as a whole, in generational terms. Self-sacrifice leading to long-term social gain. That’s the idea setup. The current setup is “get the best I can for myself, and fuck everyone else”, which is obviously not the best setup for the long-term or for the society as a whole. The problem is that because the current order supports the latter and not the former, trying to behave in the former way can be hazardous (because the system is setup to take advantage of people who do so).
That’s the main issue with tradcons. Not that what they want is wrong in an ideal sense, but rather that following their prescriptions in a pragmatic sense leads to bad outcomes given the current context.
@184 Escoffier:
Ok I get what u’re saying. Like I mentioned in #76, I just think the infighting is a pity since u guys are basically on the same side with relatively minor differences in beliefs. And it’s been doing so well for a relatively new blog. Anyway, hopefully things get sorted out.
To add to #187, I remember Obs writing in his Sept 21 post:
“JustFourGuys began operations on Jun 13, 2013; on Jun 5, 2014 – one week before our first birthday – we broke 1M site views. At present, we are nipping at the heels of 1.5M site views, and at our current course and speed, will break 2M site views between the end of the year and sometime in Jan, 2015, if not sooner. In other words, we will have garnered more site views in roughly six months, than it took us a year to do previously. And we have done this with virtually no promotional budget, advertisers, and a miminal social media presence – our primary mode of promotion is good ole word of mouth advertising.”
I have no idea about typical blog viewership counts, but I remember reading that and being pretty impressed. Clearly what’s been written on this blog strikes a chord with many people.
Going back to the 1950s males have had a suicide rate considerably higher than girls. Seems like 18-20 suicides per 100,000. The rate is actually a little bit lower in recent years than it was in the 50s and 60s.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779940.html
I should add though, that it looks like suicide rates were influenced more by suicides among older cohorts in the past (especially 45+), vs. a still present but less skewed disparity of young vs. old in the present. It seems like the suicide rate for 15-24 yr olds peaked around 1990.
every one of my troopers who ate a gun did so over some cheating whore of a woman; it stems from investing in something you should never invest much in, women
OK, make that two persistently negative commenters.
Why should you always check what you’re volunteering for, before signing up?
Great question
Now that’s a damn shame. You don’t allow images to be embedded in comments, huh?
(not angry, it’s not me that’s missing out on the joke)
A few things to say and I’ll take my leave…
First off, I want to aplogize if my comments like more people going ER freaked some others out. I was just providing another avenue for change, even if it has horrible consequences. I have thought about the ramifications if my solution came to pass, and I cannot find something that wouldn’t ultimately be for the better good of the majority. If people have any counter offers, I’d be happy to hear them.
2. My attitude here is always somewhat of a downer. I’m one of those depression being hidden guys one reads about. Just the nature of my mind, and to be honest it helps. The look at the negative side saves me from the dreaded fall from euphoria. I recently had a ONS with a model, and for 2 days I felt better about myself than I had in years. I was happy, confident, and was on cloud 9 basically. I was really hoping for a FWB situation, as I am a Dom and she seemed to enjoy that role. Alas, I didn’t get a “call back”, which I take as I wasn’t up to snuff. Due to my past, this devestated me. Being forced to see this woman every weekend is equally painful (cannot wait for this month to end). If I had not tempered myself with the “don’t get your hopes up” self talk, I may not be here to speak at all. So keep in mind the vitriol, the sadness expressed on this site is more for cathartic reasons and to bolster an immune system to not let one get their hopes up.
3. Regarding moderating. Do what you all need to do. This site has been quite helpful, at least in part due to the open debate the comments seem to foster. If nothing else, it has sharpened my debate skills and given me links to prove the various claims I have made to blue pill people like my parents. If that has to change, so be it, but I will be sad to see it go.
Finally, regarding #184. I will be the guy that says it. Why bother with self improvement, when there are no guarantees that it will garner positive results? I’ve been running for about a year now, and it really hasn’t done anything but exacerbate my asthma and make me depressed that my gut is still there. I am an extremely impatient person, so that may be the cause, but my thoughts on self improvement are: “why strive to improve and make ones self better when the other side of the fence doesn’t have to do anything?” It would take years of work for me to look good. Thats only physique, let alone the stuff I can’t change like height, cock size, body hair, etc. Then, Im to still be at the mercy of capricious women.?Doesn’t seem like a good return on my investment. ( I view manliness as how hot and how many women want him. Figured I would make that declaration. To me, sex with a beautiful woman/women and have them want you is the epitome of life.)
Anyway, I’ll probably stop posting in general. The whole make yourself better doesn’t sit right when there is no guarantees of success and the other parties involved don’t have to do anything but show up. Good luck gents
LOL reality is harsh
Running is bad for you. Try something else. Not joking.
If exercise literally makes you unhappy, or less happy than not exercising, then I suppose not exercising is the way to go. For the vast majority of men, however, this is not so. I didn’t exercise for years and while I paid no heavy price for that (that I know of; marriage was fine, career path fine, and so on), I have felt much better since I re-started. Plus, since I find life mostly enjoyable, I would like to stay healthy as long as I can.
Thus, it’s bad advice to say exercise or self-improvement generally are wastes of time. Perhaps they don’t have great ROIs for some small subset of men. But for most men, they are valuable.
If you banged a model, you must be doing something right. I never did that.
Success is never ‘guaranteed’. Otherwise it would be called ‘breathing.’ (And even breathing is not guaranteed.)
“Success is never ‘guaranteed’. Otherwise it would be called ‘breathing.’ (And even breathing is not guaranteed.)”
Yes. I was actually thinking of referencing the number of people I know who don’t have functioning limbs.
@195, Nekros —
I view manliness as how hot and how many women want him. Figured I would make that declaration. To me, sex with a beautiful woman/women and have them want you is the epitome of life.
That right there is probably your main issue. If you determine your self-worth, and that of men in general or manliness in general, around that metric, you’re setting yourself up. The reason for pursuing self-improvement is to make a better life for yourself, regardless of whether there are women along for the ride or not. If you make it about whether it generates attraction/arousal in women, then you really are placing yourself at their mercy, as it were. No need to do that. Better yourself for you, pursue interesting things, improve your health (there are better exercises than running, and especially if you have asthma), become more interesting as a person and you will enjoy life more, and likely (although not guaranteed) more women will find you interesting and attractive. Even if not, you’ll be enjoying life more anyway, which will give you a more positive outlook and more satisfaction in life in general.
If you are short, it’s true that not much can be done about that. It limits the women who will be interested in you, period. But there are still women who are — it’s just a smaller group. Again, if you are short and are otherwise self-improved, you will find some women who are interested in you. Likely, unless you are Tom Cruise, they won’t be models. And even he can’t keep a relationship with one of them. Cock size matters much more to some women than to others — size queens. There are more size queens today, due to porn and promiscuity, than there were 20-30 years ago, but there are more women who are not stuck on cock size than there are women who will not exclude short men, so it’s much less of an issue for you.
I’d recommend more self-improvement and less of a barometer on women’s interest in general.
“But others do need your strength. My family was devastated by my brothers death and many told me what got them through those 1st days and weeks was me not crying, taking care of business and them. So what is more loving bawling like a beat bitch or standing firm for those around you?”
That’s great that you could be their rock, but there must’ve been at least a few men in that group you were a rock for right? That means those men need to cry too. So what?
“The critique: that men need to be more like women in order to reduce the male suicide rate, is extremely sexist and misandrist.”
Have you ever had a depressed son? How did you deal with it when he cried and expressed intense emotional suffering to you?
” Gamers push against corruption on journalism”
Any examples?
“Care to examine the sexist, bigoted comments and death, rape and dox threats delivered to supporters of gamergate from the SJW side of the house? I thought not.”
I’ve not been made aware of them. Sources so I can look into it?
Being a man is hard, and even harder when you don’t understand the world around you.
I hope you can square up Obsidian.
Running is bad for you. Try something else. Not joking.
Truth. Try the ellpitcal or a bicycle. Much easier on the joints.
Please do not fall for this, Obsidian. What they’re really doing is using the comments as a bogus excuse to shut down any efforts that question or go against feminist dogma. Please do not fall for this obvious ruse. Their reasons for attacking this site have nothing to do with the comments section. Have you seen the comments on mainstream news sites? I’ve seen worse on CBSNews.com and Politico. You should have seen some of the comments from right-wingers during the height of the Michael Brown coverage. Yet, all of my comments questioning feminism were quickly erased on the ABC News site (the ABC News comments section is fine with racist comments against blacks, but post a thoughtful comment challenging feminist dogma, and it will quickly be erased). This is about the suppression of ideas by the machine. Someone has to speak out, and you’re doing a great job. Don’t let them stop you by using a wholly disingenuous, bogus excuse.
I mean, on the Washington Post website, there were people on there talking about how “they should have picked their own d*mn cotton”, and how they should never have freed the slaves, and worse and far worse, during the height of the Michael Brown coverage. You don’t see any of these people disassociating with the Washington Post because of it, do you? Most of the people on this site are fairly sensible and reasonable compared to what you read on more mainstream sites, and that’s without being heavily moderated like those mainstream sites have to be (you should have seen some of the racist comments I saw even on HuffPost on this story about Tawana Brawley a while back). This thing about using the comments as an excuse is completely bogus. They’re just trying to shut anyone down who raises questions about straight-line feminist dogma.
Because if you maintain the right focus, you will feel much better about yourself.
There was a girlschase.com article, which I am unfortunately currently unable to find, where he linked to a psychological study on school children. In the experiment, the teacher praised half the kids for “being smart” (ie results oriented) and half the kids on “working hard” (ie process oriented). The study found that while many of the “hard work” students lagged being the “be smart” students, all of them eventually went on to surpass the “smart” students…long term.
Those who were trained to gin of themselves as smart found their identity threatened whenever they struggled, so they never pushed past challenges to grow themselves. The hard working students, however, prided themselves on facing struggle…so they continued to improve and remain motivated in the face of adversity.
I relate exactly to what you’re saying – to lose my virginity I had to lose fifty pounds (5 lbs a month at a time), and hit on around 1000 women (not counting my previous six years of effort). Of those 1000+ women, I got six dates, and only the last one went on past the first date. It’s been a year since then, and I’ve only dated one other woman since. I did manage to get her to he bedroom…but then Porn Induced Erectile Dysfunction got in the way.
I’ve hit on around 100 women in the month and a half since I almost had sex with that chick. I’ve gotten a handful of numbers…but no dates. BUT…I am fairly happy, and I’m confident that Ill get laid by the end of the year. I don’t know how it will happen, but I know it will, because I’ve learned to take pride in my hard work. As long as I learn from my mistakes and keep doing whatever it takes to reach my goal…I will be happy, and I will eventually make it there.
Shift your mind set – focus on the process and build your identity on being the guy who works harder than everyone else. I’m going to make you the same offer I made Fuzzy – Ill buy you the reprinting mp3 I use to motivate myself, as a gift, and Ill help support you in going out to meet women.
I also agree with what others have said – drop the running. I dont run, my family gets shin splints too easily. I lift, and I prepare my own food. I recommend reading “the obesity epidemic”. Following the diet advice there has done wonders for me.
At the very least, even if you don’t get with any women as a result – and on that note, I’ve never had a One Night Stand, let alone with a model, so you are ahead of me in that regard – one day you’ll look in the mirror and notice that you’re sporting some badass looking muscles. It feels great to see your body becoming more and more manly.
@The four guys – could one of you pass my new email address to Nekros?
most dudes don’t train very hard then bitch about no resluts and here is the thing
if you are using anything but a barbell( or dumbbells when the barbell smokes your ass) you aren’t training hard. Twice a day most days out of the week.
Don’t “workout” train. Like a machine which is all about your mental game
2x/day, every day? How is that even possible, unless all you do are isolation exercises?
I’m far from an expert, but I’ve read Rippetoe and other “authoritative” texts, and they pretty much all say: 1) don’t waste time, and certainly don’t concentrate, on isolation exercises; 2) you need a rest day in between lifts to see the best gains; 3) risk of injury goes way up if you work the same muscles hard on successive days.
Beyond that, if the bar is set at 2x/day, most simply can’t or won’t do that. No point in discouraging people. More power to you, if you know a way to do that safely and have the time and inclination, but most men won’t and don’t.
3x/week is perfectly fine provided you do the basic compound lifts. Here’s a decent overview:
http://liamrosen.com/fitness.html
Starting Strength is the best book I know of that explains all this in detail. I don’t follow the workout to the letter, but I’ve learned a ton from it and refer to it often. It’s been a huge help.
Twice a day most days out of the week.
Ton, you on gear?
“I want to see our commenters refine their thoughts into civil, reasoned, thoughtful arguments, be they pro or con in relation to the topics that are discussed here – and I want to see more focus and emphasis on the actual topics being discussed, rather than idle chit-chat’ about someone else’s comment(s). I find that the latter tends to cause the discussion to ‘drift’ away from the actual topic itself, and pretty soon we’re on some other stuff altogether – which, as we’ve previously seen, isn’t always by accident on the part of some here.”
“I’m doing this, because as I said, I think the J4G Project, is a worthy and noble one; one that is worth getting the world’s attention to sit up and take notice of. The lives of Men, being told in their own voices, is something that is sorely needed in our time right now. And because, at bottom, I want to make people THINK. Not ‘convert’ them over to my or the team’s point of view; simply to THINK. And I’m doing this because I want to continue to partner and work with highly talented and thoughtful, reasoned people like Dr. Jeremy, and Dr. Edward Rhymes, and my team mates here at J4G, like Ciaran and Ted D and Morpheus and Han Solo and Sir Nemesis and Deti, and I want really thoughtful commenters like Novaseeker and Bastiat and Ms. Liz and Ms. LynM not to feel that their throwing pearls before swine and wasting their time.”
I totally feel you on the ideas quoted above here, Obsidian. In my opinion, you’re making a good point in the OP, for the most part. But this right here…
“Now – if you are inclined to attempt to ‘debate’ me about this, don’t. We’ve heard all the arguments – in my case in particular, for five years at this point. In fact, there are guys who regularly comment here that I know who have been saying the exact same thing, for five years(!). And from what I can tell, they haven’t improved or grown personally at all over that course of time; an argument could be made that they’ve made themselves worse. I don’t want to use the Button, but you all know by now that I can and will wield it like a scalpel, so please, do not force my hand. This isn’t up for discussion here – this is a ‘sh*t or get off the pot’ moment for you here. You are either going to clean up your act, or you are going to find it increasingly difficult to exist in this space.”
…is taking it overboard. Censorship and heavy moderation interrupt the natural flow of the conversation, which is basically a lie. It’s painting over the real picture with one you would rather look at. That whole paragraph reads like someone putting people in the corner with duct tape over their mouths, then turning to the rest of the crowd and going “anyone ELSE wanna disagree with me?” Using the Button (I take it that means deleting comments?), censoring comments, and editing other people’s comments to include your thoughts is way too controlling. Comments- and people- should be allowed to stand on their own and speak for themselves.
In order to have a blog that fulfills the overall purpose you’ve presented, you need more voices, not less (which is what you would achieve by using “the button” and continuing to put your stamp all over the comments). The true culprits, I think, are actually all those lurkers you mentioned who are afraid to come out and play. My question to them is…why? What’s the worst that could happen if you write a comment here and the readers don’t like it? I get negative reactions here all the time- which does give me pause about bothering to offer my opinion sometimes, I will admit- but it’s really not that big a deal. My biggest concern would be wasted time, but when I think about it and remember that there are lots of people reading other than the few who currently run the comment section, I realize that nothing is lost. I know that I’m not an island, nor am I a snowflake…someone, somewhere, is going to read what I wrote and relate to it, if not today then someday, and to me, this makes it worth my time to comment when I feel strongly enough to do so.
In the end, I’m hollering at the lurkers who Obsidian is referring to, as well as the people who have commented before and given up on it since. It’s all good! Speak your mind; there’s no shame in that. You’re writing already anyway, to Obsidian, so why not share with the group rather than hide away?
Re: training 2x per day. Looking forward to reading his thoughts, but my guess is that Ton is:
1) Splitting S&C into two components, so there might be a powerlifting 5×5/West Side type morning and then metabolic conditioning type work—probably fighting or tactical stuff-related—in the afternoon.
2) On the other hand, 5-6 days per week of that hard a schedule will blow out a lot of guys within 4-6 weeks unless they are:
2A) Used to it and training psychos
and/or
2B) On a gear cycle
A lot of MMA fighters at my gym will do the big lifts 2x per week using a minimalist-but-very-tiring “Body by Science” type approach, and then do metcon stuff (tire flips, sledgehammers, kettlebells, sprints, plyos, Prowler or sled pulls or pushing a big truck around the parking lot, etc) about 3x, but they also do both a Striking martial art and a Grappling martial art every day but Sun.
During a fight camp, it changes and you start mixing everything together more into these monster workouts that more closely simulate the insane demands of a real professional mixed-martial arts fight. I think that the vast majority of guys have no idea how hard fighting really is, how quickly they would gas, or how much skill it takes to really be a badass.
Example of fight camp training at ATT: Thiago Alves
I typically swim 5x/week (3 sprint workouts, 2 distance), but I only lift 3x/week. Tried it two consecutive days once because of a tricky travel schedule and it was a mistake.
Be that as it may, it’s still possible to see some results if you aren’t “training hard.” I did the “body by science” type work out once a week for a year and a half. It took about six months to see any kind of noticeable difference, but it still showed.
Now I’m doing twice a week, for almost two months. It’s taken a month to see a noticeable difference (aside from increases in reps of course). I’m not ripped, by any stretch, I’m only just starting to see some decent muscle definition, but the point is that even if you aren’t hardcore, you can get some results if you focus on the process and not sweat it when it takes a while to see a return.
Once you do start seeing a return, it amps your motivation so you can start doing even more. Building momentum, in my opinion, is key for those of us who are starting with extreme limiting beliefs.
Ted D @30 ..
Right on the money. I’m with you on this Ted.
As for me .. you only delete spam. You only edit in extreme cases. If you must disagree or ask questions .. put in a post format and prove your point .. or ask your questions.
As for dealing with women (excluding our noted J4G exceptions) .. trying to rationalize with an irrational wild / feral animal is bad idea. Compromise in this case is completely one sided (prove me wrong). This is war. Act accordingly. Give the feminist what they want. ALL of IT .. just don’t give them your boys / men .. Take care of number 1. Teach your young men to do the same. This will be painful in the short term. But if men before us had not been weak and timid and in’uh’fectual and not let it get to this point .. we wouldn’t need to make such a large sacrifice now.
When the dust settles don’t cave until complete victory has been acheived. Remember “compromise” with feminists is not possible. Just like any other form of marxist / jihad faction. They must be un’re’pent’ud’lee destroyed to have real compromise / victory for our society.
I’m with Morph too .. What are Obs and Ciarian trying to sell? Whatever it is .. I ain’t buyin’ it.
ShamergateI’ve not been made aware of them. Sources so I can look into it?
You aren’t aware of it, because you haven’t bothered to look for it. Your bias is clear. I examined the entire thing when I got wind of it; I’m a life long gamer, starting with mechanical machine games in the 60s/70s. We called it pinball. My nickname in jr. high was the pinball wizard. I’ve continued on and into modern gaming.
So, when I found out about GG, I looked it all up. Both sides are not covered in glory.
But, it is pretty clear that Aneeta is engaged in a feminist political crusade. I say as a male, who is the target demo for the game market, she needs to shut her sexist trap. Aneetas videos are an appalling display of propaganda and lies in obvious service to her brand of anti-male gaming culture, feminist supremacism.
Zoe is acting like the typical “poor me I’m being picked on” Girl for undue sympathy. She is attempting to use her vestigial female privilege of protection from the threats by trolls to avoid addressing uncomfortable truths about how she has conducted herself.
That the vast majority of women/girls are more interested in other things shows that these girls are trying to throw their weight (and/or vaginas) around and be accommodated for simply being female in a largely male culture.
Fuck that. That shit is over. They deserve no special consideration, simply because they don’t like what male gamers like. And the big reason they don’t like what the guys like is because they are girls. To which I say, they are welcome to go somewhere else. What would they know about what I should like in a game? Who the fuck do they thing they are?
They remain free to make their own games and work that market. But their demands that others do so to meet their subjective standards is out of line.
stupid italics
Shamergate “I’ve not been made aware of them. Sources so I can look into it?”
Sfcton, “You aren’t aware of it, because you haven’t bothered to look for it. ”
True. I’ve only read the wiki and 2 other articles about Gamergate. My bad. Please link me to sources that “SJW’s” are making death and rape threats to gamergaters like you alleged in your comment, and as I’ve asked for sources for.
Thanks!
#gamergate is the future.
Distasteful as it maybe there is no other way to fight SJWs. In 2014 a fighting takes one of three forms: violence, litigation, or Alinsky Rules. Gamergate is Alinsky Rules all the way. And #gamergate seems to be one of the few groups that understands in a fight like this winning is all that matters as this is an existential fight, not a monitor dispute where both sides live. What they may not realize is they are now under a permanent siege of SJWs.
One of problems feminists and SJWs face is they have cried wolf so loudly and so often aout so much that those they need to persuade, influence, or silence no longer believe their claims. As well when the SJWs have demonstrated the repeated willingness to fabricate threats against themselves the idea to build sympathy. The notion that anyone should be incensed about Internet threats in the absence of verification by law enforcement is simply rediculous.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/womens-rights-activist-charged-with-rape-threat-hoax-on-face
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/false-claims-of-rape-and-harassment-are-now-employed-by-activists-as-tools-of-social-change/
There is no reason to demonstrate sympathy, understanding, or concern to any SJWs or affiliates that recieved a mere threat. None. It might be a law enforcement issue. SJWs are a little red book from a cultural revolution, and make no mistake when the time and opportunity arise they will be more than happy to break eggs for their omelets.
drug free lifters who train correctly get 2 a day in for a most days a week; its about building up your work load
I run gear pretty often but not right now due to injuries I am trying to recover from. I’ll get something up about training at my place in a few days
204,
“What they’re really doing is using the comments as a bogus excuse to shut down any efforts that question or go against feminist dogma. Please do not fall for this obvious ruse. Their reasons for attacking this site have nothing to do with the comments section. Have you seen the comments on mainstream news sites? I’ve seen worse on CBSNews.com and Politico.”
Hell yeah! By trying to please everybody, you’ll please nobody. From my experience around these parts, I’m pretty sure being “nicer” or cleaner or whatever rarely helps. They’ll still think you’re a misogynist. And you’ll end up self-censoring all for nothing… Just my humble opinion.
It’s a fact of life that your enemies will try to characterize your blog by the worst comments, even faking them–see Warman in Canada.
One way or another, a blog like this is going to attract some clown whose comment is, “Women are *&&^%^”, and variations. IOW no useful comment. If you delete or ban this guy, you cannot be said to have a balanced policy. You can always be made out to be biased.
Suggestion: Let the clowns do that, and append something like, “‘we are all free to be our potty little selves’, ed”.
That way, you don’t ban so you can’t be accused of biased banning, but you indicate you know the buttheads when they surface.
As has been said before, nothing you say will protect you from the accusations of misogyny, even if all you’re doing is the weather. So there’s no way to protect yourself in a passive sense. Even, as has been said, if you ban most prodigiously.
I totally agree with Obs’ sentiments in this article. Manosphere sites have been a big help in me getting myself to grow up, to take responsibility for my own self improvement and where I end up in life. But I want nothing to do with the average commenter. A large chunk seem like semi-literate bottom dwellers who are angry at the world for where they are. They haven’t taken the red pill, they’ve just learned about what it would be like to take it, but don’t have the balls or will to follow through on it.
The message of the manosphere absolutely does not need to be toned down. Rollo’s site, this one, other big ones we all know, none of them are very extreme. They’re just truthful, which comes across as extreme in a culture where truth is treated, at best, disdainfully.
A good segment of the commenting population, however, come across as butthurt crybabies who can’t or won’t improve their lot in life. The sphere has an optics problem, not in the big bloggers and their opinions, but in the shit that sticks on the bottom of their boots as they stride the ‘net.
Now that Obs is gone this site is gone with it. He was the only one of ya’ll that could write worth a damn. Look forward to seeing what he does next. Look forward to not paying attention as the rest of you continue to talk about the same fucking shit we already know.
#222
A simple question:
Obsidian has had a blog for a long time. It’s here:
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/
He had a WordPress blog before that, but it was shut down due to the complaints of some black female social justice warrior. But that’s a different issue.
As you can see, the blog’s layout is pretty lame and most of his posts get a few comments that aren’t a bit better than the ones you see here or on any other ‘sphere blog, or they get no comments at all.
So, what’s the story on that? If he’s such an excellent writer, why aren’t his posts getting at least dozens of high-quality comments? Why aren’t other bloggers and sites linking to him all the time?
@223 Hollenhund: To be fair, I don’t think the number or type of comments on Obsidian’s site, or any site, necessarily reflect on the quality of the blogger’s writing. I wouldn’t blame it on Obsidian. A large segment of the population is too busy watching reality TV to do reading of any sort, especially reading about serious issues. Even when pple do read blogs, many tend to just stumble onto certain blogs by accident, instead of doing a lot of searching to find the very ‘best’ ones.
Alana,
Dalrock’s and Rollo’s blogs are getting dozens, sometimes hundreds of comments to each post, and many of those comments are as excellent as the posts. RoK is also getting lots of comments. Obsidian’s posts either get no comments at all, or they get like 10-20 comments, many of which are spam. How do you explain that?